Believe in UFOs???

[Ray H]

Lately we've had some pretty deep conversations about religion, race and politics. Heres another one. UFOs. Larry King has had a couple UFO shows, I just got done watching one and it got me wondering what other views are out there.
Who believes we are being visited?
My thoughts are that its probable we are or have been visited from other planets. There are millions of stars out there. Each one may have several planets orbiting it. I find it very unlikely that earth is the only one of millions that supports life. With the likelyhood that there are many other inhabited planets, its probable that some are more advanced than we are and are capable of extended space flight. With that said, why would it be so strange that occationally they buzz by here.

[funvtec]

that is where i stand on the subject to a T. its only logical

[Ray H]

The biggest arguement Ive seen against us being visited is that people say " why dont they make contact with us when they come here". My thoughts on that is, why should they? Think about how much different they must be and about how much more advanced they must be. To them we are nothing.
When people take african safaris they dont try to communicate with wilderbeasts, they just show up in there magic vehicles for a short time, take some pictures and gauck for a minute, then they leave.
For all we know, earth could very well be an experiment. Every so often the ET scientists stop by to collect data then they fly off. Maybe we are something like Disneylands Animal Kingdom, a habitat that has been setup for the purpose of observing. Who knows, either way, theres no reason for them to try to communicate with us.

[Renegade]

Yeah i've thought a lot about UFO's. Its just hard to understand how they would get to earth if we are sooo far away from other solar systems... unless they know how to travel the speed of light... which in a way are going back in time... at least that is what i believe Einstein said.

[Ray H]

Its all unknown technology that we cant even comprehend. For all I know they can trevel at a million times the speed of light. I dont really believe in the theory of relativity. I think time is a man made measurement. I dont think time travel is possible no matter how fast you go. The speed of light is just another barrier, just like the speed of sound or the 4 minute mile. Some day we will break the speed of light and all that will happen is a bright flash, time wont slow down or stop or go backwards
Some people believe UFOs are us visiting from the future. Im not one of them, but it is an interesting theory.

[5-90]

Face it - how many of you have deep and meaningful conversations with children that you meet during the day? I'd be willing to bet not too many - mainly because kids don't understand the sort of topics you really want to talk about.

Who's to say that, if we're being visited, it's not by a race/races that consider themselves in relation to us as we typically consider ourselves to five-year-old children? Certainly there are some precocious children out there that can get into deeper conversational waters and hold their own, but how many are they, really? How many of us would be able to intelligently communicate about higher subjects to a representative of an advanced race?

Do I believe there are other races out there? Certainly. However, they would run the full spectrum of societal and technological development - from "cavemen" in their version of the Stone Age to the Utopian societies envisioned in the bulk of science fiction to the "easy-going anarchy" of a truly "adult" society (any people who needs an external force to impose order on itself ain't grown up - and won't be, until we finally move out of our parents' house.)

The Universe is too vast to think otherwise. I've seen too much strange stuff to think otherwise.

Besides, for those of you who are into "intelligent design" and the idea of a "Supreme Being" by whatever name - who is to say that God isn't some variet of alien (alien to us, anyhow) and who has simply had more time to grow? Who is to say there isn't only one of them/him? The "Earth as Petri dish" idea has some merit as well - perhaps they've forgotten enough of their past that they've cultivated us as a means to study themselves? Even if they're not like us, don't behaviourists study rats and such to get an insight into what makes us tick?

Now, wouldn't it be a kick if some of these "plagues" we've been dealing with (Ebola, AIDS, herpes, E. Coli, salmonella, Staph, ...) weren't released by whoever has "cultivated" us as part of their experiment - to test our development?

Follow that line of thinking to its logical conclusion, and your brains will start to itch rather badly...

@Renegade - The "Speed of Light" limit is (theoretically, anyhow) only a limit in Einsteinian space-time. Four dimensions.

There may be more - and FTL travel could be a simple matter of accessing higher dimensions... "Hyperspace" and "warp space" are common names for that very phenomenon - as are "hyperjump," "space jump," and others.

[Ba-Riedo]

Now, wouldn't it be a kick if some of these "plagues" we've been dealing with (Ebola, AIDS, herpes, E. Coli, salmonella, Staph, ...) weren't released by whoever has "cultivated" us as part of their experiment - to test our development?


Thanks, looks like I will not be going to sleep tonight.

-Alex

[Boatwrench]

In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth...:sunshine:


couldn't help myself to many MGDs tonight.

[Ray H]

In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth...:sunshine:

Who created god........maybe very advanced (relative to us) beings from onother planet?

I didnt want to get into another religious debate but on some level it does kind of wrap back around.

[Ba-Riedo]

Who created god........maybe very advanced (relative to us) beings from onother planet?

I didnt want to get into another religious debate but on some level it does kind of wrap back around.

Chicken or the egg? Where does it end, so then you can ask who created the creator of the species who created humans and so on... :D

-Alex

[Ray H]

Chicken or the egg? Where does it end, so then you can ask who created the creator of the species who created humans and so on... :D

-Alex

Exactly. I'm purplexed. My brain tells me that everything has a beginning and only nothing can be created from nothing. Obviously my brain is wrong because we are here. Where do you go when you are starting out with a theory that you think is wrong?

[5-90]

Who created god........maybe very advanced (relative to us) beings from onother planet?

I didnt want to get into another religious debate but on some level it does kind of wrap back around.

"Science" and "religion" are not mutually exclusive - the answer to the question of "Where does God live" can be found in hyperspatial and high-energy physics. I've discussed this before.

And, I have no real problem with the belief in God - it's what Man has done to that belief that has caused all of the trouble. cf. "Crusades", "Jihad", et al.

[funvtec]

damn this ish is getting deep.

mabye all this ufo visiting lately is whats driving gas prices up, it can't be cheap to travel at light speed:callme: :search: :wave1: :peace: :dunno:

[Ray H]

damn this ish is getting deep.

mabye all this ufo visiting lately is whats driving gas prices up, it can't be cheap to travel at light speed:callme: :search: :wave1: :peace: :dunno:

My guess is their craft run on ozone. They stop by here to refuel. Our ozone is a natural resource for them and they are running out of it. I think we should start charging them for it.

[JNickel101]

I just wanna wheel another planet....maybe they can abduct me AND my XJ...

On a more serious note, I think its completely plausable that other intelligent (MORE intelligent) life exists out there - you have to be incredibly arrogant and naive to believe we're the only ones in a universe made up of billions of stars....

[Mudderoy]

Personally I'd look at it the same way I do ghosts. Never seen one so I cannot say for sure, but it is interesting.

At least that is the way I would look at it if I hadn't seen a UFO.

The Comet that Landed on my street

When I was about 6 years old my Mom had told me about a comet that would be visible during the early morning hours.

Excited about seeing the comet I woke up one night. No idea what time it was, but the whole house was pitch black. Only the faint light coming in from the windows lit my way to the living room.

I went to the side of the living room that would give me a view of the night sky. To my utter amazement I saw the comet! It was round and white like the pictures I had seen. Only this one didn't have a tail, and it was sitting on the road about 300 yards from where I stood.

I quickly went to go wake my Mom so she could see the comet on the road. As I stood there looking at my Mom, I remember what she had told me previously. "If you wake up in the middle of the night, don't wake me up, just go back and get in bed." So I didn't wake her up. That is where my vivid memory ends abruptly. Two things were strange that night. The comet on the road, and that I would actually do what my Mom told me to do. :laugh:

The next morning I jumped on my bike and rode down to the point on the road where I saw the comet. There were marks on the road but nothing I could say "were unusual, or weren't there before".

Some time later, probably years later, I realized that the comet on the road couldn't have happened and this round 30 foot diameter, glowing white ball, must have been something else. This must have been a UFO, or ULO (Unidentified Landed Object).
This would have happened around 1966.

This is my one and only experience.

[fscrig75]

I'd like to believe that we aren't the only beings out there.
I just have a question for all the religious types...
If the aliens don't look like us, who did God create in his own image?

[RichP]

Well, I only hope no one cleans out that piece of moldy cheese in that refrigerator or our universe is in trouble....
I had an experience in 75 in the gulf of mexico that took me from a 'maybe/probably' to a 'yup'.

[funvtec]

Well, I only hope no one cleans out that piece of moldy cheese in that refrigerator or our universe is in trouble....
I had an experience in 75 in the gulf of mexico that took me from a 'maybe/probably' to a 'yup'.


care to elaborate?

[Boatwrench]

I just wanna wheel another planet....maybe they can abduct me AND my XJ....

Becareful what you wish for, every abduction story I have heard usually involves an anal probe...:nono:

[red91]

I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.

Except taken from "Scientific Progress Goes "Boink"


1.) Nasa and The Voyager project.

2.) The radio telescope at Arcecibo ( Yeah most of them are to "LISTEN" not transmit.)

3.) Quantum jumps in high end technology ( computers, stealth capabilities )

4.) Foo Fighters over Mt Rainer spotted by Ken Arnold June 24th 1947. ( no not the band idiot ! )


Keep going...and going.

I'll see you at the Little A'le'Inn December 22, 2012.

The truth is out there....

[RichP]

care to elaborate?
Can't, same agency who confiscated our sonar tapes read us the riot act and I'm still military though retired.

[JNickel101]

Becareful what you wish for, every abduction story I have heard usually involves an anal probe...:nono:

Oh yeah...forgot about that. No way in hell do I want an 80 foot satellite dish sticking out of my ass....

[FordGuy]

I think it would be awfully naive to believe that we are the only life form in a universe that we have just started to understand. Does anyone remember in the movie Men in Black where the cat has a world in a glass sphere around its neck?? Think about it!

[JeepFreak21]

I can identify all flying objects :D
Billy

[PuddinHead]

We believe that we (carbon based life) are true life forms and that Aliens (not the ones from El Salvador or New York :D ) would more or less look like us. What if we are just a form of mobile slim growing in this pea soup we call an atmosphere which hangs onto the Earth because it aint' got anything better to do. To a totally different form of intelligence (not life as we know it at all) we could look like so much mold growing on a piece of rye bread.

Uh what was the question again? :wierd: Oh yeah--Yes. Because I saw something odd once too.

[TRNDRVR]

In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth...:sunshine:God is a UFO!
(unidentified f*cking object)

[PuddinHead]

God is a UFO!
(unidentified f*cking object)

God is Mystery. We cannot know God because we don't have the capacity to know God. Can an ant or amoeba understand human thought? Of course not. Our conception of God is just that and little more, You have to look at the human face of God to garner any understanding at all.

Sorry, I am terribly off subject, but couldn't let this snide remark pass.

[Renegade]

Alright! time to watch Independence Day or War of the Worlds! Haha.

[scottmcneal]

So if i travel at the speed of light, turn on lights.. Do they stay in front of me or behind? Or is it still dark in front? I need to know

[5-90]

So if i travel at the speed of light, turn on lights.. Do they stay in front of me or behind? Or is it still dark in front? I need to know

Speed is additive.

If you're standing on the bed of, say, a railcar going 50MPH and you throw a fastball at, say, 75mph; one of two things will happen:

1) If you throw it in the direction of travel (forward,) the ball will be travelling at 125mph WRT the ground.
2) If you throw against the direction of travel (backwards,) the ball will travel at 25mph WRT the ground.

In both cases, the speed of the ball WRT the source (you) will still be 75mph. The ball will move away from you in both cases, and will seem to move at the same speed in your frame of reference. The difference comes to an outside observer.

Your question is largely theoretical, but you now have the tools to posit a theoretical answer.

[scottmcneal]

:helpme: :sure:

[5-90]

:helpme: :sure:

Geez - which part didn't you understand?:dunno: :compwork:

Seriously, you have enough information to give a theoretical answer.

Where the idea really starts to fall apart is whether you subscribe to the "wave theory" or the "particle theory" of light - and even physicists can't agree there (although I lean more toward the particle theory, it doesn't explain 100% of the behaviour of light...)

Using the baseball example leans heavily on the wave theory of light travel, since the baseball can be said to be a "photon" (quantum particle of light.) It's as good an example as any - I just used the baseball to keep the numbers small. Using a bullet would require expression in feet per second to keep things sane, and it gets really hairy with light (which travels 186,282 statute miles per second, or 983,568,960 feet per second! I'm sure you didn't want to crunch those numbers... This is why "light-seconds/minutes/hours/days/&c." are used to measure astronomical distances. The Sun could be said to be 98 million miles away, or eight-and-a-half light-minutes away.)

But, if you want a simple answer, there really isn't one that is known. I just gave you the tools to come up with an answer - which could be as simple or as complex as you like.

[TRNDRVR]

couldn't let this snide remark pass.You haven't a clue!

[PuddinHead]

You haven't a clue!

Now you're catching on!:rof:

[Steve_Moore]

I have personally seen one, and no, I wasn't on anything or drunk. I'm surprised nobody else in this thread hasn't, really.

It was when I was 12 or so, and about 5 others saw it, too, and we weren't far from it. It came right down to us, no sound, but alot of lights. It looked just like the ones in the drawings and movies. Round and full of lights. We could see the windows all the way around the damn thing, was really freaky.

I don't mind telling the story or getting ridiculed, I know what I saw, although I can't say where it was from..... :wierd:

[XJEEPER]

God created worlds without number, and man, in His own image. There is the potential of other beings like ourselves out there.

[rag]

i was sitting on a park bench, waiting for my parents to catch up (i had run ahead).

something caught my eye. it was round, diameter larger than my height (i was ten at the time) , matte black in color and floating very slowly between the trees.

it eventually rose higher than the tree line, stopped, moved horizontally for a bit...

father called me, i turned and responded. when i turned around i had lost track of where it had gone.

[Bradlybob]

I've never seen one but I think they're out there. Where or when they're from is anyones guess. I was curious about UFO's depicted in ancient art so I googled it and was surprised at the number of flying vehicles in paintings and other media from a time when people would have no concept of a flying saucer or rocket powered ship. Makes you wonder about the origin of angels and other supernatual stories.

[Ray H]

I would love to see one. I dont think I would like being abducted, but if I could see one, that would be cool. The part that would suck is knowing what you saw but no one would believe you.

[Trail-Axe]

UFO’s Aliens from other planets….

Very possible, God created the heavens and the earth. He said, “Let us create man in our image, after our likeness.” It may be that God has a very real and personal relationship with all of His creation. It may just be us on this earth (due to our sin and fall from grace) that we do not see Him as do others.

Quantum physics/ String theory suggest that there could be parallel universes right beside the one we currently live in. In these parallel universes life may exist on this planet, as well as others. It may be heaven, and the realm in which God is. It may also be possible for beings from these parallel universes to cross over into our own, though this may be a breach of the laws set forth by God, unless it serves His purpose to do so. It has been speculated by some that fallen angels (demons) have done this and may be the cause of our UFO’s.

The Bible says that man was driven out of the Garden of Eden, and He (God) placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. This may be a simple way of stating that we were no longer able to see paradise from our universe, nor partake of its pleasures.

As far as the “who created God question” goes, its really quite simple. No one did. He always has been, God. Only a created creature would be able to ask such a question. Since we are created, we arrogantly assume all things were created. We do this because we observe people being born, and we observe people die, and we do this from a universe that is cut off from God, and decaying. So we assume based on what we know that all things come from something. But it may be, in the universe that God is, that such a question never even comes to mind. We may be, in our own universe, unique and alone; and in need of His saving grace if we are ever to know the truth, and be with Him where He is.

Which now makes the idea of a parallel universe that is equally unique, and located in a place closed off from all light, from God, and anything good at all. A place of eternal torment (a prison if you will) so horrible that describing it as a place of fire that never goes out may be just a glimpse of the total torment for the retched souls who will suffer there for their sins, and do so for all eternity with no hope of escape, a permanent death row so to speak.

[Trail-Axe]

I would love to see one. I don't think I would like being abducted, but if I could see one, that would be cool. The part that would suck is knowing what you saw but no one would believe you.

Same with those who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. And same feeling for many who know in their hearts that He is risen. :)

[Ray H]

Same with those who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. And same feeling for many who know in their hearts that He is risen. :)

There is much more evidence that extraterrestrials exist than evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Whats your evidence that Jesus rose, one chapter of a book written five thousand years ago by a common man?
Sorry, not enough for me. But, thats what faith is all about.
There are a couple problems I have believing the bible, one: The time frame. I believe in Carbon 14 dating. Two: What is a "GOD"? For all practical purposes, god is referred to as a being of some sort. What if "god" is really just a very advanced being from someplace else? He came here, created this planet and watched over it, maybe even sent his "son" down here, parted the seas and so forth. But he is still no more than just a being from another planet with powers we dont comprehend. Thats alot easier for me to believe than "god is just....god".

[XJEEPER]

What part don't you get Ray, that a "common man" documented Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago, or that a man, born in the most common way and raised by common parents could be the Savior of Mankind?

Science and faith have difficulty co-existing.......

[gradon]

There is life on some of those other solar systems you see in the sky. Some of those beings are more intelligent than we are. Maybe some of the other planets in our own system have already had life and maybe some years down the road other planets in our system will be ready to support it. I'm an occasional tripper and some of the things I've seen and perceived have shown me that there is a whole lot more out there than what I experience in my daily grind. JAUNT!

[Ray H]

What part don't you get Ray, that a "common man" documented Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago, or that a man, born in the most common way and raised by common parents could be the Savior of Mankind?

Science and faith have difficulty co-existing.......



I get it. A commoner wrote the bible and documented the resurrection. That is just one person who wrote a few words several years ago. Theres not much hard evidence to believe there. A person would have to have alot of faith to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that those amazing events truely did happen. I dont have that faith. I am more inclined to believe what todays men say based on the science we have today, as opposed to the "non science" of thousands of years ago.

[Beej]

Yet you believe in UFO's?

:D

[XJEEPER]

I get it. A commoner wrote the bible and documented the resurrection. That is just one person who wrote a few words several years ago. Theres not much hard evidence to believe there. A person would have to have alot of faith to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that those amazing events truely did happen. I dont have that faith. I am more inclined to believe what todays men say based on the science we have today, as opposed to the "non science" of thousands of years ago.

So let me square up on this.......if an accredited scientist were to have an experience that in his mind, proved that God is real, but the only proof he had was his testimony of the experience, then you would believe?

Or would you have to receive the confirmation first hand, as in a personal witness?

Same questions apply to UFO's..............

[GrimmJeeper]

Yet you believe in UFO's?

:D i dont belive in Beej. he can't be real, he just can't. :wierd:

[8Mud]

I get it. A commoner wrote the bible and documented the resurrection. That is just one person who wrote a few words several years ago. Theres not much hard evidence to believe there. A person would have to have alot of faith to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that those amazing events truely did happen. I dont have that faith. I am more inclined to believe what todays men say based on the science we have today, as opposed to the "non science" of thousands of years ago.

I wouldn't place a whole lot of faith in most any science other than math, maybe physics. And even math misrepresents many numbers as whole that aren't, our physics may not be valid in another universe. Man has always had trouble dealing with anything not absolute. One of the reasons for our success is we keep looking for the answers. The problems begin when we ignore the empirical data and settle on an answer before all the facts are in. We accept something as true, just to fulfill our need for an answer (a solution, an absolute).
In the early 70's I found an artifact in Death Valley, obviously man made. Obviously made and then petrified. I had some contact with the science department at UCLA. I presented my findings and never heard any reply. For the next twenty years most anthropologists kept insisting mankind immigrated to north America 15,000 years ago. My artifact was at least 45,000 years old. In the last few years there has been a number of finds in Chile and other places dated around 45,000 years ago. The anthropologists where saying one thing, a plumber was saying something else. A plumber who is being proved right. Funny but the artifact disappeared and it weighed, at a guess, around 80 tons.
Occasionally you hear about a find from way out of the accepted time line for mankind's evolution. These are generally written off as anomalies, but are they? People will often look at hard evidence and scoff, if it doesn't fit there preconceptions. Even very educated people, who should know better, but often seem to be the worst culprits for protecting accepted theory. Most successful scientist have to be one part salesman, two parts communicators and three parts politician, does this mean they are the brightest or most capable scientists, no. It just means they have skills that advance there carriers, other than scientific abilities.
There is a lot of empirical evidence to support visitors from someplace. The research, while not mainstream, may prove out eventually. Mainstream thought doesn't mean it's valid, it just means it's accepted.
I like Albert Einsteins quotes. One was; Your imagination is likely closer to the truth than much of todays scientific method. Imagination is more important than knowledge. The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education. The only really valuable thing is my intuition. Old Albert sure sounded like a skeptic of accepted scientific theories.

[Ray H]

So let me square up on this.......if an accredited scientist were to have an experience that in his mind, proved that God is real, but the only proof he had was his testimony of the experience, then you would believe?

Or would you have to receive the confirmation first hand, as in a personal witness?

Same questions apply to UFO's..............

There are accredited scientists that believe in god (UFOs). Im not sure ANYONE can "prove" god (UFO) is real, that would be the first tip that this scientist is full of crap. In scientific terms, god (UFO) is at best a theory because it cant be recreated. The answer is, not neccessarily. I wouldnt believe just because someone said so. I would look at the preponderance of evidence and decide for myself. Obviously if something were to happen to me personally such as a sighting or something spectacular, my beliefs may change, until then, Ive got to go with the evidence that makes the most sense to me.

[SeansBlueXJ]

8mud, i m curious, what was it that you found that was so large? Sounds intresting.

[TRNDRVR]

I wouldnt believe just because someone said so. I would look at the preponderance of evidence and decide for myself. Obviously if something were to happen to me personally such as a sighting or something spectacular, my beliefs may change, until then, Ive got to go with the evidence that makes the most sense to me.X2

[Mudderoy]

X2

Man has been trying to understand his environment since man started thinking. I don't always agree with the scientific method either, but I think it has served us better than what man was "guessing" then "accepting" on how things worked in the middle ages.

Scientists guess but call it a theory. More importantly they test their theory and ask other scientists to do the same.

You can be right all day long but can you prove it. It is enough for me to know that I am right. Other's can catch on later if they like.

[PuddinHead]

Please don't confuse science with religion. Their functions are different in our society although not always mutually exclusive. As far as the Holy Scriptures are concerned, our beliefs are based on much more that just words. We look at the lives of the saints throughout history most espescially the eleven apostles who knew Jesus personally. Most of them fled when he was arrested, yet after his resurrection, they led the church and suffered greatly at the hands of many and nearly all were murdered. St. Paul persecuted the early church and was present at the stoning of St. Steven, but he (a devout Jew) converted to the faith and became one of the principal authors of the New Testament! :eek: Persons with Faith are able to perceive truth about another reality.

As for science it is a tool, not a belief system. Any honest scientist will tell you that the odds against life forming on the Earth are astronomical (no pun intended).
The truth is from a scientific point of view we simply don't know how life began on this planet. I believe in the probable existance of UFOs. That said, the scientific probability (even with all those millions of potentially habitable planets) of intelligent forms visiting here are miniscule not only because of the vast distances involved but if the odds against life forming here are universal then there should be no life--anywhere.

Science is interested in the how and why. Religion is interested in the who. Science will tell us how to build a car, religion tells us how to behave when driving it.

[Commando81]

I have to believe it would be said to learn we are the only life in the universe intelligent or not. "Ancient Societies" have paintings depicting flying objects, some cultures had technological advances not developed again till many years later. Our technology that we see is limited by those with more power than us "commoners". Couple of cool things to check out The Nemi Ships from the Roman Empire, a 1905 Baker electric car in Jay Leno's collection that travels 110 miles on a charge yet our modern ones go maybe 40 miles.
As far as seeing is believeing when I was 12 saw what I thought was a spotlight on the clouds till I could still see it after the clouds. And when I was 17 a flaming ball falling from the sky a couple friends and I went to see thinking a plane had crashed saw every fire truck cop and ambulance in the town looking as well we went around the country block looking for it. When we made it back to where all the emergency crews where they were all gone and there was never anything in the paper or on the news about the incident. Everyone has an opinion on this subject that is mine.

[SBrad001]

Man has been trying to understand his environment since man started thinking. I don't always agree with the scientific method either, but I think it has served us better than what man was "guessing" then "accepting" on how things worked in the middle ages.

Scientists guess but call it a theory. More importantly they test their theory and ask other scientists to do the same.

You can be right all day long but can you prove it. It is enough for me to know that I am right. Other's can catch on later if they like.



When scientists guess, is called a hypothesis.

A Scientific Theory is a hypothesis that has been tested multiple times and fits all available data.

Although some might not understand how big this distinciton is, it is still a big distinction. Also, this means that if any new data comes into play that contradicts the orginal hypothesis or Theory, that the hypothesis or theory are studied until understood and changed accordingly.

[Bent]

Also, this means that if any new data comes into play that contradicts the orginal hypothesis or Theory, that the hypothesis or theory are studied until understood and changed accordingly.
Except the theory of evolution.

[Ray H]

Please don't confuse science with religion. Their functions are different in our society although not always mutually exclusive. As far as the Holy Scriptures are concerned, our beliefs are based on much more that just words. We look at the lives of the saints throughout history most espescially the eleven apostles who knew Jesus personally. Most of them fled when he was arrested, yet after his resurrection, they led the church and suffered greatly at the hands of many and nearly all were murdered. St. Paul persecuted the early church and was present at the stoning of St. Steven, but he (a devout Jew) converted to the faith and became one of the principal authors of the New Testament! :eek: Persons with Faith are able to perceive truth about another reality.

As for science it is a tool, not a belief system. Any honest scientist will tell you that the odds against life forming on the Earth are astronomical (no pun intended).
The truth is from a scientific point of view we simply don't know how life began on this planet. I believe in the probable existance of UFOs. That said, the scientific probability (even with all those millions of potentially habitable planets) of intelligent forms visiting here are miniscule not only because of the vast distances involved but if the odds against life forming here are universal then there should be no life--anywhere.

Science is interested in the how and why. Religion is interested in the who. Science will tell us how to build a car, religion tells us how to behave when driving it.

Science and religion are becoming closer. Ever hear of "intellegent design". Its basicaly a merging of the two. Obviously there are sticking points, Carbon 14 dating is the biggest because it screws with the biblical timeline.
As far as the distance between planets or solar systems being too far. 800 years ago the distances of our oceans were too far to travel. Hell, its only been in my lifetime that we have gone to the moon, another distance that 50 years ago was impossible. What will humans be capable of 50000 years from now, or 500000 years from now? Thinking stellar distance is too far for beings from other planets to travel is kind of like Christopher Columbus thinking a steel ship wont float.
Im not religious yet I behave better than most behind the wheel. My brain tells me how to behave and it also tells me there is no god.

[rocknxj]

Good topic, but the better question to ask somebody is, "Why don't you believe in alien life."

Our government tries hard to supress alien evidence. That effort is enough evidence for me to suggest there is a real potential for life to exist outside our planet. If I'm wrong, so what. It was fun thinking about it in the meantime.

[Ray H]

Good topic, but the better question to ask somebody is, "Why don't you believe in alien life."

Our government tries hard to supress alien evidence. That effort is enough evidence for me to suggest there is a real potential for life to exist outside our planet. If I'm wrong, so what. It was fun thinking about it in the meantime.

I dont like the French but the French government has officially announced the existance of alien life.
I know theres a joke in there somewhere but apparently they are serious about it.

[SBrad001]

Except the theory of evolution.

I disagree Tim.

Although I don't believe in a god or a 'guiding force', I don't feel that evolution conflicts with either belief, but the Theory of Evolution does contradict creationism as taught in the bible. The Theory of Evolution is the best fit to the evidence to the Earth's geological and fossil history and that's all.

I think that if we go any further than that with the Theory of Evolution, then we're debating the existence or non-existence of God.

[Ray H]

I disagree Tim.

Although I don't believe in a god or a 'guiding force', I don't feel that evolution conflicts with either belief, but the Theory of Evolution does contradict creationism as taught in the bible. The Theory of Evolution is the best fit to the evidence to the Earth's geological and fossil history and that's all.

I think that if we go any further than that with the Theory of Evolution, then we're debating the existence or non-existence of God.

Google "intelligent design".
Intelligent design is a creationist view and allows for evolutuion.
They feel that the earth and man was created around 4000 years ago and have evolved since then. They discount the age of the fossils and geology because they simply dont believe in Carbon dating.

[SeansBlueXJ]

I disagree Tim.

Although I don't believe in a god or a 'guiding force', I don't feel that evolution conflicts with either belief, but the Theory of Evolution does contradict creationism as taught in the bible. The Theory of Evolution is the best fit to the evidence to the Earth's geological and fossil history and that's all.

I think that if we go any further than that with the Theory of Evolution, then we're debating the existence or non-existence of God.

While I am not religous in the least, evolution and creationism can sucessfully go hand in hand if your not a literalist when it comes to the bible. The Catholic church reccognizes that it happened, so long as it was by "god's grace" and if you look at the gennsis story and dont make the "Days" be 24hr days then the order of things mostly follows evolution. Light and dark, then earth and oceans, animals and plants with man showing up last. That seems to follow the chronological order right.

But back on topic. Absoutely are we not alone. I am sure there is a vast collection of life out there both way more advanced then earth and well behind it. Kina like in the Star Trek movie First Contact (hey my mom was a big Trek fan and I saw stuff growing up can't stand it now any way...) The vulcans werent even going to stop by earth untill they saw a "warp drive" over at earth. We werent worth their time till we had reached that technology.

So it's not that hard for me to beive that part of it is sorta true. We are making enough noise for them to come look at us, but maybe not enough yet for them to want to say hello. I mean afterall we are still burrning up dead dinosuars to produce most of our enegery needs, :passgas: and we need what equates to a controled explosion to get into space. Pretty primitave given what we already understand. Probably way primitave on what else is probably out there.

[8Mud]

8mud, i m curious, what was it that you found that was so large? Sounds intresting.

Nothing earth shattering. It was a cube, ten logs wide, ten high and ten deep. The logs were approximately 18" through (matched diameters, almost uniform in circumference there whole length), maybe a little larger than 18". What threw me was the logs were petrified into pretty much a solid rock cube.
I was exploring a wash near China Gardens (above China lake). There had been a recent flash flood that uncovered some nice rocks, I always was partial to stream polished Onyx. It was just luck I didn't just drive by. Mostly it was the temperature (it was near freezing) and humidity/moisture that really made the cube stand out. Wet rocks (and petrified wood) look polished when wet, the low temperature often increases the intensity of the colors.
I'd heard on numerous occasions about mankind being dated around 15,000 years ago in North America. I'd also been told it takes around 45,000 years for a tree to petrify. Light bulbs started popping in my mind. I initially thought it may have been washed into the area when it was still wood. It has been hypothesized that much of the Mojave desert and Death valley was once a part of the gulf of California or possibly the Pacific ocean. A lot of volcanic evidence in the area. It may have also been put together near where it was found and covered over sometime in the distant past.
I put together a short letter with some maps and sent it off to the Anthropology department at UCLA (I had some friends in the biology department and got a recommendation). I offered to go back and take some photographs and samples if anybody was interested. I never got an answer.
What threw me was (when I returned to the site 5-6 months later) was finding somebody had gone to the trouble to blow it up and hall off the pieces and/or move the whole thing (unlikely due to the narrow, winding, rock strewn trail). It was likely closer to 120 tons maybe more. A couple of feet off in my guesstimate could double the weight quick. Somebody did a really good job of cleaning up the site. It might have been the military, they discouraged traffic in the area, though it was well outside the posted no trespassing government property signs. Maybe somebody dynamited it and hauled it off for grave stones or something.
My point was, there are likely pieces of the puzzle laying all over the place. First task is to find them, second is to get somebody certified interested enough to investigate them, third is to protect whatever you find from exploitation or even a cover up. Joe citizen has likely stumbled across more evidence than the scientific types ever have and much of it will likely never been known or factured into contemporary theory.

[SeansBlueXJ]

8Mud, that's actually a pretty cool story. Thanks for sharing. And who knows as you said, when people were where is constantly changing in acceptance. 10 yrs ago there was no european settelemnts in america before columbus, now we know there are some (all be it failed) early viking out posts on the continet.

[5-90]

Heh.

You want a mystery? Google "crystal skulls." These things have been found all over (roughly life-size and properly-detailed human skulls, hewn from a single piece of rock crystal) and we still think they're impossible given what we know about carving rock to-day.

But they're all several thousand years old, at the very least...

[8Mud]

8Mud, that's actually a pretty cool story. Thanks for sharing. And who knows as you said, when people were where is constantly changing in acceptance. 10 yrs ago there was no european settelemnts in america before columbus, now we know there are some (all be it failed) early viking out posts on the continet.
One thing that always threw me was the ends of the petrified logs, while not exactly the same length, appeared to all be square cut. Not an easy task without a saw, doable with a stone adz maybe. But one of those finishing touches you really wouldn't expect from early man.
Another thing I was kind of vague about was the cube was laid out ten logs parallel, then ten more 90 degrees to the last layer, ten high.
I guess compared to easter Island it really isn't much of a find, but something you sure wouldn't expect to stumble across during a day of rock hunting in Death Valley.

[PuddinHead]

Science and religion are becoming closer. Ever hear of "intellegent design". Its basicaly a merging of the two. Obviously there are sticking points, Carbon 14 dating is the biggest because it screws with the biblical timeline.
As far as the distance between planets or solar systems being too far. 800 years ago the distances of our oceans were too far to travel. Hell, its only been in my lifetime that we have gone to the moon, another distance that 50 years ago was impossible. What will humans be capable of 50000 years from now, or 500000 years from now? Thinking stellar distance is too far for beings from other planets to travel is kind of like Christopher Columbus thinking a steel ship wont float.
Im not religious yet I behave better than most behind the wheel. My brain tells me how to behave and it also tells me there is no god.


Intelligent design is for the most part a bunch of crap. In my opinion the concept of a Creator should not be wrapped in superstitious hogwash trying to explain the details of the origin of life. Science must be taught without this politically motivated mumbo jumbo. That said science should admit the truth that NO ONE KNOWS HOW LIFE BEGAN. Christianity is the conviction that the Creator did something impossible--He made life. And more importantly he entered into time and history by reducing himself to the dimensions of a human being. The Creator became a man. It is enough for us to simply say rather symbolically (Genesis) how life began. It began with God. And God had no beginning (or end) because God exists outside of space/time as we understand it. How exactly? WE DON'T KNOW---GOD IS MYSTERY.

As far as my discussion of distance, I was inferring that the distances between any space farring civilisations would be great indeed if the odds of life forming out there were the same as the odds of life forming here. Again, scientists say the odds of life forming here are several milliions to one against. Nearly impossible.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
. --Albert Einstein

[8Mud]

Intelligent design is for the most part a bunch of crap. In my opinion the concept of a Creator should not be wrapped in superstitious hogwash trying to explain the details of the origin of life. Science must be taught without this politically motivated mumbo jumbo. That said science should admit the truth that NO ONE KNOWS HOW LIFE BEGAN. Christianity is the conviction that the Creator did something impossible--He made life. And more importantly he entered into time and history by reducing himself to the dimensions of a human being. The Creator became a man. It is enough for us to simply say rather symbolically (Genesis) how life began. It began with God. And God had no beginning (or end) because God exists outside of space/time as we understand it. How exactly? WE DON'T KNOW---GOD IS MYSTERY.

As far as my discussion of distance, I was inferring that the distances between any space farring civilisations would be great indeed if the odds of life forming out there were the same as the odds of life forming here. Again, scientists say the odds of life forming here are several milliions to one against. Nearly impossible.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
. --Albert Einstein

Several million to one is really optimistic. God created man in his image, leaves a rather wide scope of possibilities. Two arms, two legs and one head etc.
There are something like 7 million processes going on in a human being at any one time. The odds of chance changes being an improvement and not fatal are astronomical.
It has been compared to taking a 727 aircraft, breaking it down into it's component parts and reassembling it *without a plan".
I find little contradiction to creation, evolution and intelligent design all being valid and happening simultaneously. One doesn't have to be exclusive of the other.
Maybe the ability for improvements over time was built into the base model (intelligent design).

[PuddinHead]

Several million to one is really optimistic. God created man in his image, leaves a rather wide scope of possibilities. Two arms, two legs and one head etc.
There are something like 7 million processes going on in a human being at any one time. The odds of chance changes being an improvement and not fatal are astronomical.
It has been compared to taking a 727 aircraft, breaking it down into it's component parts and reassembling it *without a plan".
I find little contradiction to creation, evolution and intelligent design all being valid and happening simultaneously. One doesn't have to be exclusive of the other.
Maybe the ability for improvements over time was built into the base model (intelligent design).

Could be. Life is a wonder simply because it is. It works even though it shouldn't. Life began here on the Earth even though it shouldn't. I can't subsribe to the notion that the complexity of this world, this life is the result of some random convergence. I know that (unfortunately) there are all sorts of dysfunctions in nature. Why? Like you said, just part of the evolutionary process. For me the bottom line: All things that promote life/general welfare are good. All things that lead to death/distruction are evil. Most of these 'things' are human behavior. I'm not about to go there.:D

What scares the hell out of me is that good and evil forces (distinctly different polar opposites) are closely intertwined in some sort of on-going struggle.
/

[Trail-Axe]

What scares the hell out of me is that good and evil forces (distinctly different polar opposites) are closely intertwined in some sort of on-going struggle./
Fear not Puddin Head, we have intel that reveals who ultimately wins this struggle of good Vs evil. Be a very wise decision to be on the winning side of this war!


"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said,"Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelations 21:1-8)

[GrimmJeeper]

ahh i knew captain scripture was going to soil this thread eventually :cheers:

[scottmcneal]

I believe, we are not alone.. Thats what my wife tells me aleast..:gag:

[Ray H]

I believe, we are not alone.. Thats what my wife tells me aleast..:gag:

Maybe your wife is never alone........... :loveu:
even whe you are.............:angel:

[TRNDRVR]

Fear not Puddin Head, we have intel that reveals who ultimately wins this struggle of good Vs evil. Be a very wise decision to be on the winning side of this war!


"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said,"Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelations 21:1-8)F*CK almighty, somebody ban this piece of SHIT!

[drifto77]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/drifto77/oops/securedownload.gif

[Mudderoy]

I don't know if you guys heard what the Mars Polar lander recently found out. The soil (at the site of the lander) is just like the soil in your back yard. Capable of growing all sorts of things. I think this is very telling in the question "Can life exist somewhere other than Earth?"

All we have to do if find the life now. Of course NASA found fossilized "baterica type" life in a meteorite found on Earth back in the 90's. There is a lot of scientific discussion about this being correct, but the people at NASA (in Houston) said it IS fossilized life, and have not wavered from that since the announcement.

When I heard about the soil findings from Mars, I laughed at how another world could be so similar to our home. I think life is very abundant in the Universe. I think the Universe is "geared" toward creating and supporting life. I suspect we'll look back and laugh at this time in our history how we really thought we were alone in the Universe.

[Mudderoy]

Fear not Puddin Head, we have intel that reveals who ultimately wins this struggle of good Vs evil. Be a very wise decision to be on the winning side of this war!


"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said,"Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelations 21:1-8)

Yes but the "Star Wars" saga has taught us that we may not like the road that is traveled to get there. ;)

[Bent]

F*CK almighty, somebody ban this piece of SHIT!
:rattle:

[kdailey4315]

Why is it that only the people that don't believe in UFO's and aliens are the ignorant ones?

[Commando81]

Why is it that only the people that don't believe in UFO's and aliens are the ignorant ones?


Think of the size of the universe and tell me you honestly believe we are the only life then look in a mirror and tell me your not ignorant

[98XJSport]

Think of the size of the universe and tell me you honestly believe we are the only life then look in a mirror and tell me your not ignorant

Re-read what he wrote...

And leave it to Trail-Axe to bring scripture into a good serious UFO discussion:looney:

How about this to think on, which came first? Belief in Aliens or belief in the Christian version of God? :eyes:

[Bent]

...which came first? Belief in Aliens or belief in the Christian version of God? :eyes:
By whom?

[98XJSport]

By whom?

Any recorded history. Point being there are drawings and carvings from civilizations that by far predate the bible that could be describing aliens. So if there were civilizations and beliefs before the bible, why didn't God show himself to them? Unless, if he does exist, he came about after those civilizations? Or perhaps a more advanced being stumbled acrossed the right group of simple humans and proclaimed itself a god?

Or perhaps man's greatest folly, in regards to science, religion, the universe, anything is the claim to know, and to understand.

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat.
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

[Bent]

When did the aliens start believing in aliens?

[Ray H]

How about this to think on, which came first? Belief in Aliens or belief in the Christian version of God? :eyes:

What if you believe they are the same thing.

[kdailey4315]

Think of the size of the universe and tell me you honestly believe we are the only life then look in a mirror and tell me your not ignorant
I'm not saying that ailens don't exist. There are 2 beliefs here (key word being beliefs), wither they exist or they don't. I'm just asking why people who don't bleive in them are labeled ignorant?
By the way, the universe doesn't really have a size since it is infinite. However after pondering that I did look at myself in the mirror but unforunately I still don't think I'm ignorant.

[Darky]

The Bible does tell us that in the last days (which we don't know how long they will last) there will be an increase in lights and sightings in the skies, earthquakes, storms, natural disasters will increase in power and frequency. It will be like the birth pains of a woman in labor, getting stronger and more frequent...

Oh yeah, and on topic, I do believe people see things in the sky and they are actually there, but I don't know what they are...

[RichP]

As far as life on earth, it could have been seeded, thats just as good a theory as the primordial ooze theory. Of course then comes the question, WHERE did THAT come from... then there is the question, is the seeding still happening.
There was, or still is for all I know, a writer back in the 70's named Eric Von Dankien (sp) who wrote 'chariots of the gods' that has some interesting thoughts and he was the first one to bring up the crystal skulls.
I found Larry King's show interesting the other nite when 3 retired air force officers said point blank that UFO's were responsible for the malfunction of 10 ICBM's in their silos, all 10 went tits up at the same time after a security guard reported seeing a UFO hovering over the silos to one of the officers who was in the underground bunker as one of the guys who shoots the missiles, the cia according to them covered that one up, these guys were all colonels and they tend to be somewhat sober at that level.

[PuddinHead]

F*CK almighty, somebody ban this piece of SHIT!


"Anger dwells only in the bosom of fools. "

. --Albert Einstein

[Trail-Axe]

He that sows iniquity, that does an unjust thing in hopes to get by it, shall reap vanity; what he gets will never do him any good nor give him any satisfaction. He will meet nothing but disappointment. Those that create trouble to others do but prepare trouble for themselves. Men shall reap as they sow.

Abused power will not last. If the rod of authority turn into a rod of anger, if men rule by passion instead of prudence, and, instead of the public welfare, aim at nothing so much as the gratifying of their own resentments, it shall fail and be broken, and their power shall not bear them out in their exorbitance. (Matthew Henry)

[YELLAHEEP]

I'm ready. Anti-anal probe butt plug installed, tin foil hat on..........

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1010/1459637083_5876a50377.jpg?v=0

[SBrad001]

He that sows iniquity, that does an unjust thing in hopes to get by it, shall reap vanity; what he gets will never do him any good nor give him any satisfaction. He will meet nothing but disappointment. Those that create trouble to others do but prepare trouble for themselves. Men shall reap as they sow.

Abused power will not last. If the rod of authority turn into a rod of anger, if men rule by passion instead of prudence, and, instead of the public welfare, aim at nothing so much as the gratifying of their own resentments, it shall fail and be broken, and their power shall not bear them out in their exorbitance. (Matthew Henry)

Dude, can you ever post anything without sounding like you're preaching or being a pompous ass?

[Ray H]

He that sows iniquity, that does an unjust thing in hopes to get by it, shall reap vanity; what he gets will never do him any good nor give him any satisfaction. He will meet nothing but disappointment. Those that create trouble to others do but prepare trouble for themselves. Men shall reap as they sow.



So basically, do onto others as you would like done to you.

Do you want me to post how much I think christianity is such a fat load of crap? Should I mention that those who believe have been dooped by the biggest scam to come down the pike in a couple thousand years?
Of course you wouldnt like that and Ive got too much class to do it, so why do you persist in doing it to me and everyone else. I understand that youve been told its your duty to spread the word but even witnesses have the decency to go away when asked to. You're like a pushy telemarketer. How many times do you have to be asked nicely to let it go? thats it, Thats what you are, a holy telemarketer.

[GrimmJeeper]

thats it, Thats what you are, a holy telemarketer.

YES!

[Trail-Axe]

Do you want me to post how much I think Christianity is such a fat load of crap? Should I mention that those who believe have been dooped by the biggest scam to come down the pike in a couple thousand years?

Ah, like when did "I" ever say I think that anything you believe in is a fat load of C_ _ _? Or when did "I" ever say you have been dooped by anything?

If you want to say those things about me, then at least be man enough to just come out and say them. I would respect that. Though TrnDrver may not have any tact, at least he has the fortitude to say what he actually feels, and does not beat around the proverbial bush. He may sound like a jerk, but a coward he is not.

[SBrad001]

Ah, like when did "I" ever say I think that anything you believe in is a fat load of C_ _ _? Or when did "I" ever say you have been dooped by anything?

If you want to say those things about me, then at least be man enough to just come out and say them. I would respect that. Though TrnDrver may not have any tact, at least he has the fortitude to say what he actually feels, and does not beat around the proverbial bush. He may sound like a jerk, but a coward he is not.

um, remember that sig line you had for awhile? Or even you current sig line.

Now just because you use biblical scriptures and quote CS Lewis doesn't mean that you aren't beating around the 'proverbial bush'. You just let scripture and CS Lewis imply your insults and thoughts instead of just coming out and saying what you really think.

[Ray H]

Ah, like when did "I" ever say I think that anything you believe in is a fat load of C_ _ _? Or when did "I" ever say you have been dooped by anything?

If you want to say those things about me, then at least be man enough to just come out and say them. I would respect that. Though TrnDrver may not have any tact, at least he has the fortitude to say what he actually feels, and does not beat around the proverbial bush. He may sound like a jerk, but a coward he is not.

Yeah, how did that sig go? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1"
Thats right, you never said anyone was "dooped", just that they are corrupt, evil fools who do no good.

Darn, guess I wont be getting anymore PMs from you asking me irrelevant questions just so you can show off your new sig line. Go ahead and put me on your "do not call" list....Please...

[Trail-Axe]

um, remember that sig line you had for awhile? Or even you current sig line.

Now just because you use biblical scriptures and quote CS Lewis doesn't mean that you aren't beating around the 'proverbial bush'. You just let scripture and CS Lewis imply your insults and thoughts instead of just coming out and saying what you really think.

Not quite the same thing young man. I post the truth. I believe the truth. The truth I post speaks for it self because it is truth. If the truth insults you, that is your bad, not mine.
:rof:

[Trail-Axe]

Yeah, how did that sig go? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1"
Thats right, you never said anyone was "dooped", just that they are corrupt, evil fools who do no good.

I posted what God thinks of those who chose not to believe in Him. Not what I think. From time to time we all play the fool, myself included. We have all done something evil, been corrupt, and done no good. We are all atheist to one degree or another from one time to another. To the level that we believe in and fear God, we do what is right, or we do not.

[5-90]

Nice to see that:

1) Someone else has been reading Erich von Daniken. I enjoy his work greatly.

2) Someone has brought something other than Scripture into this discussion. Sorry, but we're talking about aliens and UFOs here - I don't see what that has to do with religion.

While I've no particular problem with belief in "a" "God" (whatever we choose to call him/her/it/them - you never can tell...) the problem arises when organised religion is brought into the issue. I feel that belief/faith is a personal issue - between me and God - whatever form he/she/it/they chooses to take. Period. If I'm wrong, isn't that my problem?

And, while not an article of belief, I know that consciousness does not particulate, and does not dissolve after the meat has ended. Does that have anything to do with God? I don't know - nor do I care to guess. I'll know sooner or later, so why fret about it now?

Pie in the sky? If the world didn't keep me so damned busy in the here and now, I'm sure I'd look for something to occupy my time elsewhen/elsewhere. But, I'm jumping like a one-armed paper hanger with hives right now, and I don't need the extra headache.

For those of you who want to say that you just can't get along without religion/faith/belief/whatever? I say you're wrong. Also, I've found that religion/faith/belief/whatever isn't necessary to provide the psychological spur to cause "moral behaviour" - it's really in everyone's own best interest to treat everyone else well, we just have people who can't seem to realise that. Scratch that argument.

"God" is a word-symbol for something people want to believe in (not all of us, thank you very much) that allows us to get a handle on something we do not natively have the capacity to understand. Fine - I can handle that.

Where my argument lies is in the idea of forcing one's own idea of what "God" is onto other people. Merci, non - and knock it off, willya? As has been said, even Jehova's Witnesses can be encouraged to drop the subject and talk about something else, or simply go away if they don't have anything else to talk about. So please - no scripture, no proselytising - either contribute something intelligible to the discussion at hand (as a reminder for our home audience, we're discussing UFOs and ETs here...) or sit down and wait until a topic more amenable to you comes around. OK?

It is possible to discuss a whole array of topics without bringing scripture and religion into the issue - including things like philosophy, metaphysics, moral relativism (a good one for lively debate!) and even solipsism (which invalidates religion by the nature of the topic. Look it up.)

If you have anything germane to the topic at hand (all of you,) I know I'd just love to hear it! I know this is NT/OT, but let's not wander too far off the beaten path here, or I'm going to have to throw a serious curve ball and screw everyone up...

You know, I was rather enjoying this until God, Scripture, and Christianity in general got dragged in by the heels...

[Ray H]

I looked up solipsism: "the belief that the self is all that exists"


Its the dumbest thing Ive ever heard (well, not the dumbest, but its up there).
Just the fact that a person is communicating to another person (another self) that they are a solipsist nullifies their whole belief. If ones self is all that exists, why try to communicate at all, you should just think stuff and not write it or say it.

[5-90]

I looked up solipsism: "the belief that the self is all that exists"


Its the dumbest thing Ive ever heard (well, not the dumbest, but its up there).
Just the fact that a person is communicating to another person (another self) that they are a solipsist nullifies their whole belief. If ones self is all that exists, why try to communicate at all, you should just think stuff and not write it or say it.

Only the Self exists, and everything else is a figment of My imagination...

Yes, solipsism is silly - but it makes for wonderfully convoluted debates, when I'm in form for it. Solipsism is not a subject one should tackle whilst drunk, I can assure you! (The thought processes involved are difficult enough while sober - when drunk, they'll probably untwist your DNA...)

[Ray H]

Ever know anyone who thought magic was real.
I think its amazing there are people who actually believe that David Blaine can really remove someones teeth and then blow them back in their mouth, or believe he can really levitate or pull his heart out or even read someone elses mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lPrj-dq6hM&feature=related

Check this out.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f75T0YejqzM&feature=related
Does anyone actually believe this woman got ripped in half and is dragging herself around?

[Mudderoy]

I long for the return of the UFO discussion. It was pretty good.

[JNickel101]

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat.
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Men In Black is a great movie :D

[JNickel101]

Ah, like when did "I" ever say I think that anything you believe in is a fat load of C_ _ _? Or when did "I" ever say you have been dooped by anything?

If you want to say those things about me, then at least be man enough to just come out and say them. I would respect that. Though TrnDrver may not have any tact, at least he has the fortitude to say what he actually feels, and does not beat around the proverbial bush. He may sound like a jerk, but a coward he is not.

Um...I think he did pretty much call you out on what he thought of your beliefs....

and I'll go ahead and x2 that....I'm with Ray H and TrnDrver. Go preach somewhere else.:guitar:

back to the original subject.....

Anyone hear about the spacecraft crash in PA - Kecksburg I think it was - back in the 60s? Whatever it was, the government sure came and got it fast....

[SBrad001]

I'm beginning to think that Trail-dumbaxe is an alien himself, living on a different planet. . . . .

[JNickel101]

So does that mean he wouldn't believe in himself?

I'll admit, I didnt read 99% of what he wrote....and it might be dangerous of me to generalize, but most Christians I've known do NOT believe in life outside of this planet....

Or even some of the past life ON this one...

I used to date this girl who wouldn't believe anything unless it was written in the Bible - example: Dinosaurs. The Bible says nothing about dinos roaming the Earth for hundreds of millions of years, therefore, she thought there was some conspiracy out there "creating" these fake bones that were being dug up all over the world.

I'm not kidding....thinking back on it, I can't believe I ever dated her. But then I remember how hot she was and how much fun it was deflowering such an "innocent" girl....

[RichP]

I'm not kidding....thinking back on it, I can't believe I ever dated her. But then I remember how hot she was and how much fun it was deflowering such an "innocent" girl....

Those are the best, They are the dysons of the vacum cleaner industry and never loose suction....

[JNickel101]

Those are the best, They are the dysons of the vacum cleaner industry and never loose suction....

:clap: thats the funniest damn thing I've heard all month :roflmao:

[Darky]

So does that mean he wouldn't believe in himself?

I'll admit, I didnt read 99% of what he wrote....and it might be dangerous of me to generalize, but most Christians I've known do NOT believe in life outside of this planet....

Or even some of the past life ON this one...

I used to date this girl who wouldn't believe anything unless it was written in the Bible - example: Dinosaurs. The Bible says nothing about dinos roaming the Earth for hundreds of millions of years, therefore, she thought there was some conspiracy out there "creating" these fake bones that were being dug up all over the world.

I'm not kidding....thinking back on it, I can't believe I ever dated her. But then I remember how hot she was and how much fun it was deflowering such an "innocent" girl....
I believe in life outside this planet, and outside this dimension. The Bible doesn't say the word "dinosaurs", but it does speak of Leviathan which many people believe to be dinosaurs. I think there's way too much to even contemplate dinosaurs being made up. However, I believe in a young Earth. There's been some inconsistencies with Carbon 14 dating that make me not fully believe in its accuracy. Not to mention that there's been somewhat recent research showing that depending on conditions, sometimes (apparently quite often) isotopes can erode faster or slower than what is accounted for by Carbon 14. What throws me though is it that the world of Christian scientists is split on this, even down to the young earth followers. Some believe in Carbon 14 as being accurate and use it, others say its phony.
As far as life outside our planet and dimension, I believe God and the angels could be in a separate dimension, its the best idea I can come up with for how He can be outside of time. Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am". This was 1000+ yrs after Abraham's time. I think their dimension could even overlap ours, they could be walking among us, keeping an eye on us, helping even on occasion, and we'd never see em unless they wanted us to. Do I believe in UFOs? Certainly, there's plenty of objects flying around that haven't been identified. Do I believe in extra terrestrial life forms? You bet, I believe that angels are real, just like demons. I believe they can take on different forms.

But, that in a nutshell is my belief on all of this.

[RichP]

There is also a small chance that human life here was the result of a lifeboat landing here from an interstellar cruise ship or exploratory vessel that had an accident or we could have been, like Australia, a penal colony. That could account for the long lived people of the early bibles, look at how far our average lifetimes have changed in the last 500 years, imagine what the life expectancy of a civilization 5000 years or more in advance of where we currently are could be, immortal ? or long enough to appear immortal.
But no matter what it all had to start somewhere even if that supreme being is a lab chemist conducting an experiment but then that chemist had to start somewhere.

[SBrad001]

I believe in life outside this planet, and outside this dimension. The Bible doesn't say the word "dinosaurs", but it does speak of Leviathan which many people believe to be dinosaurs. I think there's way too much to even contemplate dinosaurs being made up. However, I believe in a young Earth. There's been some inconsistencies with Carbon 14 dating that make me not fully believe in its accuracy. Not to mention that there's been somewhat recent research showing that depending on conditions, sometimes (apparently quite often) isotopes can erode faster or slower than what is accounted for by Carbon 14. What throws me though is it that the world of Christian scientists is split on this, even down to the young earth followers. Some believe in Carbon 14 as being accurate and use it, others say its phony.
As far as life outside our planet and dimension, I believe God and the angels could be in a separate dimension, its the best idea I can come up with for how He can be outside of time. Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am". This was 1000+ yrs after Abraham's time. I think their dimension could even overlap ours, they could be walking among us, keeping an eye on us, helping even on occasion, and we'd never see em unless they wanted us to. Do I believe in UFOs? Certainly, there's plenty of objects flying around that haven't been identified. Do I believe in extra terrestrial life forms? You bet, I believe that angels are real, just like demons. I believe they can take on different forms.

But, that in a nutshell is my belief on all of this.

Interesting.

Personally, I don't believe in UFOs or interstellar travel at speeds greater than C(the constant for the speed of light). As we understand physics now, it would take hundreds of years to reach the nearest star system that could possibly support life.

But on the flip side, I firmly believe that life has evolved on other planets.

[Ray H]

I believe in life outside this planet, and outside this dimension. The Bible doesn't say the word "dinosaurs", but it does speak of Leviathan which many people believe to be dinosaurs. I think there's way too much to even contemplate dinosaurs being made up. However, I believe in a young Earth. There's been some inconsistencies with Carbon 14 dating that make me not fully believe in its accuracy. Not to mention that there's been somewhat recent research showing that depending on conditions, sometimes (apparently quite often) isotopes can erode faster or slower than what is accounted for by Carbon 14. What throws me though is it that the world of Christian scientists is split on this, even down to the young earth followers. Some believe in Carbon 14 as being accurate and use it, others say its phony.
As far as life outside our planet and dimension, I believe God and the angels could be in a separate dimension, its the best idea I can come up with for how He can be outside of time. Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am". This was 1000+ yrs after Abraham's time. I think their dimension could even overlap ours, they could be walking among us, keeping an eye on us, helping even on occasion, and we'd never see em unless they wanted us to. Do I believe in UFOs? Certainly, there's plenty of objects flying around that haven't been identified. Do I believe in extra terrestrial life forms? You bet, I believe that angels are real, just like demons. I believe they can take on different forms.

But, that in a nutshell is my belief on all of this.

You should visit the "Creation Musium" sometime if you get around that area. If you ever wondered about how creation and evolution can coexist, it would put many of the missing pieces of puzzle together. We spent the day going through there a couple months ago. As a non believer, it opened my eyes alot. It didnt change my beliefs but it did give me a better understanding of the beliefs of others and it filled in some blanks for my wife and her family and made their beliefs make more sense to them.
http://www.creationmuseum.org/

The sad part of the trip was seeing all the heavily armed security with bomb dogs at the musium. They are constantly getting bomb threats and threats on the personnel that work there. They apparently get it from both sides, religious zealots as well as anti religious zealots.

[Darky]

There is also a small chance that human life here was the result of a lifeboat landing here from an interstellar cruise ship or exploratory vessel that had an accident or we could have been, like Australia, a penal colony. That could account for the long lived people of the early bibles, look at how far our average lifetimes have changed in the last 500 years, imagine what the life expectancy of a civilization 5000 years or more in advance of where we currently are could be, immortal ? or long enough to appear immortal.
But no matter what it all had to start somewhere even if that supreme being is a lab chemist conducting an experiment but then that chemist had to start somewhere.
Or people who ran out of resources and came to mine our planet but decided to settle here instead. That's the ancient Sumerian belief, life here started as a result of life on the planet Nibiru needing more resources. ;)

[Ray H]

Interesting.

Personally, I don't believe in UFOs or interstellar travel at speeds greater than C(the constant for the speed of light). As we understand physics now, it would take hundreds of years to reach the nearest star system that could possibly support life.

But on the flip side, I firmly believe that life has evolved on other planets.

What do you think happens when you reach the speed of light? I never understood what is so special about the speed of light. Its just another barrier. I know, Einstein says that time slows down ect. ect. Why??? What does the speed of light waves have to do with time?

[JNickel101]

Ohhh...this is gonna get good :D

[Bent]

That's the ancient Sumerian belief, life here started as a result of life on the planet Nibiru needing more resources. ;)
They'll be back in 2012!

[Ray H]

Or people who ran out of resources and came to mine our planet but decided to settle here instead. That's the ancient Sumerian belief, life here started as a result of life on the planet Nibiru needing more resources. ;)

Ive always liked the idea that humans were food or slaves on alien craft. years ago one of these craft either crashed on broke down here and we lived. If you think about it, humans really dont fit very well here. We upset the balance.
I remember reading about a group of Spaniards who sailed to the west coast of California. They brought goats with them on the ships for milk and food. They wrecked on the Catalina Islands off the coast of CA and their goats were left on the island. The goats destroyed the island. Sometimes it makes sense to me that we are the goats.

[Darky]

You should visit the "Creation Musium" sometime if you get around that area. If you ever wondered about how creation and evolution can coexist, it would put many of the missing pieces of puzzle together. We spent the day going through there a couple months ago. As a non believer, it opened my eyes alot. It didnt change my beliefs but it did give me a better understanding of the beliefs of others and it filled in some blanks for my wife and her family and made their beliefs make more sense to them.
http://www.creationmuseum.org/

The sad part of the trip was seeing all the heavily armed security with bomb dogs at the musium. They are constantly getting bomb threats and threats on the personnel that work there. They apparently get it from both sides, religious zealots as well as anti religious zealots.
I've been to the Institute of Creation Research down in San Diego. That was a pretty good one too. Rather different from what I can tell though. They show Creation as God spoke and there we were, no further "macro" evolution required. I will say, I do believe in micro-evolution, ie: adaptation and changes caused by certain genes being bred more frequently. Don't believe in the macro variety where we went from one species to another.
They had some good info and exhibits there pointing out some of the flaws with the "scientific" timeline of Earth. As an example, the timeline for petrified wood: after the explosion of Mt St Helens, they're now finding petrified wood from only 20 yrs later. Also, many of the trees are "planted" thru several layers that shouldn't be possible.

[Darky]

What do you think happens when you reach the speed of light? I never understood what is so special about the speed of light. Its just another barrier. I know, Einstein says that time slows down ect. ect. Why??? What does the speed of light waves have to do with time?
I think what it means is that time slows down relative to you. For all of us time is normal but for you at the speed of light time would appear slower because you're moving so fast.

[Bent]

Acceleration, not speed.

[Ray H]

I think what it means is that time slows down relative to you. For all of us time is normal but for you at the speed of light time would appear slower because you're moving so fast.

Yeah, I dont think the two are related. I think time is a set, linear thing and the speed of light is ...well.. its the speed of light particles or waves of particles. At the speed of light, supposedly all nuclear action stops so if you were traveling the speed of light, you would not age but itas all relative. If you are travelling the speed of light and you switch on a flashlight, you can still see it and it is now going twice the speed of light in relation to everything else around. If Im not mistaken, isnt that how warp engines on the Enterprise work. They build on the speed of the ship like going up a ladder.

[SBrad001]

What do you think happens when you reach the speed of light? I never understood what is so special about the speed of light. Its just another barrier. I know, Einstein says that time slows down ect. ect. Why??? What does the speed of light waves have to do with time?

Two things happen as one approaches the speed of light.

The first being that time begins to dilate. Think of this way, if you look at the sun, you're seeing a 'snapshot' of the sun 18 mins ago. So if I started out at the sun, and immediately accelerated to the speed of light. It would then then take 18 mins for me to travel to the earth, but time would be motionless for me while I continue to travel at that speed.

The second thing with traveling at the speed of light is Einstien's Light speed constant. . . it would take an infinite amount of energy in order to accelerate to the speed of light because mass approaches an infinite value. Very bad things.

[8Mud]

Interesting.

Personally, I don't believe in UFOs or interstellar travel at speeds greater than C(the constant for the speed of light). As we understand physics now, it would take hundreds of years to reach the nearest star system that could possibly support life.

But on the flip side, I firmly believe that life has evolved on other planets.

"C" can be manipulated. "C" is relative anyway, Two objects traveling at near "C" in opposite directions?
Time in relation to velocity? Earth time and the time at our nearest neighbor may be radically different, it's doubtful the velocity of their solar system and ours is constant or even near the same. Time differences between the planet earth and near earth satellites traveling at relatively high velocities, has been measured and found to be different.
Physics in another solar system almost has to be different than ours. Different velocities means different relative times, basic chemical reactions happen at different tempos, if at all.
I find mankind in general to be more than a little egocentric. They say one sign of maturity is when a person looses "a little" of their egocentric nature.
If I was from another solar system and I came across a planet of almost totally self involved inhabitants, I'd be hesitant to make contact.
I find no problem imagining generational ships that have left another solar system and traveled for many hundreds of years. Likely the inhabitants have never been to the home planet and have evolved independently.
What's it been, something like a hundred and fifty years between the Pony express and the Internet?

[Bent]

I find mankind in general to be more than a little egocentric.

Noooooooooo. Really?!

[Ray H]

So if I started out at the sun, and immediately accelerated to the speed of light. It would then then take 18 mins for me to travel to the earth, but time would be motionless for me while I continue to travel at that speed.



Not to sound simple but , why.
Why would time be motionless for you?
So you are travelling the speed of light particles. What does that have to do with time? Everything is traveling the speed of light or faster in relation to something. right now, I am traveling the speed of light in relation to the light particles that are leaving my monitor. Speed is a two way street. To have speed of movement, you must have two or more objects and compare them. If I compare my speed to the speed of the light leaving my monitor, the difference is the speed of light, whos to say if Im travelling the speed of light or is the light leaving the monitor travelling the speed of light?

[Ray H]

I find mankind in general to be more than a little egocentric.

Exactly. We tend to see things like we are the center, we are the ones not moving and everything moves around us.
We are on a planet that is already moving the speed of light either away or towards something. All day long there are waves of light, moving the speed of light towards or away from us. Or are we moving towards or away from them, it doesnt matter, its the same thing. Two objects moving away or towards each other at the speed of light. Its constantly happening around us, yet time is still what it is. Its constant.

[JNickel101]

Sure "Time" is a constant (like gravity)...but time as a measurement is only what we want it to be. We measure things in a way that makes sense to us....we've set a value to things - time, speed, acceleration, distance...so that they all interrelate.

I have no idea what I was getting at....but um...hold on...

So you think "time" slows down as we approach the speed of light - time itself, or the measurement of time? If you were traveling at the speed of light and looked at your watch, would it be stopped? :D

[SBrad001]

Not to sound simple but , why.
Why would time be motionless for you?
So you are travelling the speed of light particles. What does that have to do with time? Everything is traveling the speed of light or faster in relation to something. right now, I am traveling the speed of light in relation to the light particles that are leaving my monitor. Speed is a two way street. To have speed of movement, you must have two or more objects and compare them. If I compare my speed to the speed of the light leaving my monitor, the difference is the speed of light, whos to say if Im travelling the speed of light or is the light leaving the monitor travelling the speed of light?.

Fair enough.

Since I'm not a physicist I am by no means an expert, I will do my best.

Here's a little more on the nature of light. You would think that if one ship is traveling at the speed of light and another ship was traveling head on to the first ship at the speed of light, to an observer on either ship it would appear that the approaching ship was traveling at twice the speed of light.

Not so. Both ship would appear to be traveling at just hte speed of light and no faster.

Funky stuff. Light is not subjective to the viewer. The view is subjective to light.

Basically, it doesn't matter what speed you are going, you will still perceive the speed of light as the speed of light.

[SBrad001]

Sure "Time" is a constant (like gravity)...but time as a measurement is only what we want it to be. We measure things in a way that makes sense to us....we've set a value to things - time, speed, acceleration, distance...so that they all interrelate.

I have no idea what I was getting at....but um...hold on...

So you think "time" slows down as we approach the speed of light - time itself, or the measurement of time? If you were traveling at the speed of light and looked at your watch, would it be stopped? :D

Time is not a constant, if it were then it wouldn't slow and stop as one approaches the speed of light. But the speed of light is a Constant, it never varies under any circumstances.

[TunaSoda]

Time is not a constant, if it were then it wouldn't slow and stop as one approaches the speed of light. But the speed of light is a Constant, it never varies under any circumstances.

Yes it does, if you shine a flashlight at a brick wall, the light is slowed down to 0... :D

Photons can be slowed by mass

[Ray H]

Time is not a constant, if it were then it wouldn't slow and stop as one approaches the speed of light. But the speed of light is a Constant, it never varies under any circumstances.

You cant prove that, neither could Einstein. Like you said, speed is measured in relation to ones self. To us, light particles are travelling towards us. To the light particle, we are travelling the speed of light towards it and it is sitting still. That means that we are already travelling the speed of light and time has not stopped for us or the light particle.

Suppose I strap myself into a nuclear excellerator and go the speed of light away from my house. Now Im going the speed of light in relation to my house. The only thing that has changed is that now my speed is measured in relation to my house and not in relation to the particles of light leaving my monitor. We are all always travelling the speed of light, everything is, the only thing that changes is in relation to what.

[SBrad001]

You cant prove that, neither could Einstein. Like you said, speed is measured in relation to ones self. To us, light particles are travelling towards us. To the light particle, we are travelling the speed of light towards it and it is sitting still. That means that we are already travelling the speed of light and time has not stopped for us or the light particle.

Relativity
1. The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to one another (Galileo's principle of relativity),
2. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same for all observers, regardless of their relative motion or of the motion of the source of the light.

* Time dilation: Moving clocks are measured to tick more slowly than an observer's "stationary" clock.
* Length contraction: Objects are measured to be shortened in the direction that they are moving with respect to the observer.
* Relativity of simultaneity: two events that appear simultaneous to an observer A will not be simultaneous to an observer B if B is moving with respect to A.
* Mass-energy equivalence: E = mc2, energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable.

All of these things have been proven to be true through experiments and real world observations. Spacecraft 'lose' time in respect to earth when ever they go up and come down. The lunar missions lost time that was observable.

[Bent]

But the speed of light is a Constant, it never varies under any circumstances.
That can be debated.

[TunaSoda]

That can be debated.
It is :D

[JNickel101]

Time is not a constant, if it were then it wouldn't slow and stop as one approaches the speed of light. But the speed of light is a Constant, it never varies under any circumstances.

how do you know time slows down/stops?

I think the concept of time, just like the concept of gravity, is constant. I guess it depends how you look at it. if the earth's rotation started accelerating, would we feel the effects of gravity more? would "time" speed up? what is the definition of "time"?

[TunaSoda]

how do you know time slows down/stops?

I think the concept of time, just like the concept of gravity, is constant. I guess it depends how you look at it. if the earth's rotation started accelerating, would we feel the effects of gravity more? would "time" speed up? what is the definition of "time"?
Time is merely a perceptual measurement of duration

[TunaSoda]

Relativity
1. The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to one another (Galileo's principle of relativity),
2. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same for all observers, regardless of their relative motion or of the motion of the source of the light.

* Time dilation: Moving clocks are measured to tick more slowly than an observer's "stationary" clock.
* Length contraction: Objects are measured to be shortened in the direction that they are moving with respect to the observer.
* Relativity of simultaneity: two events that appear simultaneous to an observer A will not be simultaneous to an observer B if B is moving with respect to A.
* Mass-energy equivalence: E = mc2, energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable.
You forgot to put the words "THEORY OF" before the word Relativity...

[SBrad001]

how do you know time slows down/stops?

I think the concept of time, just like the concept of gravity, is constant. I guess it depends how you look at it. if the earth's rotation started accelerating, would we feel the effects of gravity more? would "time" speed up? what is the definition of "time"?

Spacecraft that have had synchronized clocks with atomic clock on the ground lose a few fractions of second when ever they go up and come back down.

[SBrad001]

You forgot to put the words "THEORY OF" before the word Relativity...

Nah, just got lazy. Figured you were smart enough to realize it was a 'Theory'. . . won't make that mistake again. :D

You know that was a joke, right?

[TunaSoda]

Spacecraft that have had synchronized clocks with atomic clock on the ground lose a few fractions of second when ever they go up and come back down.
That may be explained by either the changing force of gravity, or the vacuum of space itself affecting the inner mechanics of the clocks

[TunaSoda]

Nah, just got lazy. Figured you were smart enough to realize it was a 'Theory'. . . won't make that mistake again. :D

You know that was a joke, right?

lol

yes, my point was we still don't know if he was correct

[Bent]

Spacecraft that have had synchronized clocks with atomic clock on the ground lose a few fractions of second when ever they go up and come back down.
Doesn't that have as much, if not more to do with acceleration than it does with velocity?

[SBrad001]

That may be explained by either the changing force of gravity, or the vacuum of space itself affecting the inner mechanics of the clocks

Dude, stuff like that doesn't affect electronics.

[Ray H]

Spacecraft that have had synchronized clocks with atomic clock on the ground lose a few fractions of second when ever they go up and come back down.

Why do you think that is. Could it be they are using "atomic" clocks and atoms do have a finite speed. Atoms travel the speed of light, it only makes sense that if you are using atoms to measure time, and you approach their speed, that measurement will be off. That doesnt mean time has changed, all it means is that we cant measure it accurately at that speed.

[SBrad001]

Doesn't that have as much, if not more to do with acceleration as it does with velocity?

Yes. But honestly, this physics stuff really starts to scramble my brain. I'm by no means a physicist, the more theoretical stuff I can't explain that well because I don't understand it all that well.

I'm much more about Newtonian Physics, which explain 99.999999999% of the real world that we live in.

[JNickel101]

Starts to? Mine is already scrambled! I'd rather talk about computers, building a network, or blowing stuff up :D

[SBrad001]

Why do you think that is. Could it be they are using "atomic" clocks and atoms do have a finite speed. Atoms travel the speed of light, it only makes sense that if you are using atoms to measure time, and you approach their speed, that measurement will be off. That doesnt mean time has changed, all it means is that we cant measure it accurately at that speed.

No.

When I say atomic clock, I'm referring to the most accurate clocks that man have ever made. The US's atomic clock is located in Colorado. It works on a known and observable decay rate for some element, I'm not sure which.

Anyway, you can synchronize two digital clocks to the atomic clock in Colorado, send one of the clocks up into space and very high velocities. Return it and compare to the identical digital clock and atomic clock and it will have lost time.

[SBrad001]

Starts to? Mine is already scrambled! I'd rather talk about computers, building a network, or blowing stuff up :D

Most of the time, I prefer to think of it all as magic. . . it seems more believable.

[PuddinHead]

Anybody remember that miniseries "The Martian Chronicles"? We (humans) colonize Mars. What if the reverse was true? Maybe 'we' came from Mars and settled the Earth. The planet was dying, we needed a new home. Who knows, maybe recon missions showed dinasaurs and we pushed a near-Earth orbit asteroid close enough to collide knowing it would destroy the critters. Latter we started settling down for the duration. Or maybe it was much later we settled here displacing Neanderthal man? Who knows someday we may discover some interesting ruins on Mars...:eek:

[Bent]

I'm much more about Newtonian Physics, which explain 99.999999999% of the real world that we live in.
But we're talking UFOs here!

;)

[TunaSoda]

Dude, stuff like that doesn't affect electronics.
Explain please

[JNickel101]

No.

When I say atomic clock, I'm referring to the most accurate clocks that man have ever made. The US's atomic clock is located in Colorado. It works on a known and observable decay rate for some element, I'm not sure which.

Anyway, you can synchronize two digital clocks to the atomic clock in Colorado, send one of the clocks up into space and very high velocities. Return it and compare to the identical digital clock and atomic clock and it will have lost time.

So time itself didnt change....something with that digital clock changed. The clock doesnt know what its measuring, its only an electronic device programmed to measure something at a set rate. The fact that the clock changed means nothing in relation to time.

Thats like taking a clock deep underwater til it breaks/stops working, then claiming that time stops if you go past a certain depth. :D

[JNickel101]

Most of the time, I prefer to think of it all as magic. . . it seems more believable.

Thats what I tell fighter pilots when I fix their equipment.

"Dude, how'd you fix that"

"Magic"

Usually its a satisfactory answer....

[TunaSoda]

So time itself didnt change....something with that digital clock changed. The clock doesnt know what its measuring, its only an electronic device programmed to measure something at a set rate. The fact that the clock changed means nothing in relation to time.

Thats like taking a clock deep underwater til it breaks/stops working, then claiming that time stops if you go past a certain depth. :D
Exactly

[SBrad001]

Explain please

NO!

I won't do it. I HATE ELECTROMAGNETISM.

You can't make me either.

[TunaSoda]

NO!

I won't do it. I HATE ELECTROMAGNETISM.

You can't make me either.
But electromagnetismationalasionisticationism is fun!

[SBrad001]

So time itself didnt change....something with that digital clock changed. The clock doesnt know what its measuring, its only an electronic device programmed to measure something at a set rate. The fact that the clock changed means nothing in relation to time.

Thats like taking a clock deep underwater til it breaks/stops working, then claiming that time stops if you go past a certain depth. :D


Not really, it's more like Time is a property of an object sort of like mass/weight. We can manipulate that property under very specific conditions.

Think about it. If you traveled at the speed of light for a year my time and came back to earth. Time for you would have stopped, but for me and the rest the planet we would have experienced a full year that had passed. We would be a year old, and your age wouldn't have changed.

[SBrad001]

But electromagnetismationalasionisticationism is fun!


The only thing I hate more than electromagnetism is, well I don't know. I hate it.

[Bent]

Explain please
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/rocket.html
Enjoy!

[5-90]

Why do you think that is. Could it be they are using "atomic" clocks and atoms do have a finite speed. Atoms travel the speed of light, it only makes sense that if you are using atoms to measure time, and you approach their speed, that measurement will be off. That doesnt mean time has changed, all it means is that we cant measure it accurately at that speed.

An "atomic" clock has nothing to do with the speed of any atoms, it is based upon the rate of decay of an unstable isotope of an element that has a known and measured/measurable half-life (can't use something like uranium - half-life is too long. I think they're using an isotope of cesium right now - I know they were at one time. I'm sure it could be found - start with <NIST "atomic clock"> or something similar if you're really interested.)

Even accounting for speed-of-light lag for the radiosynchronisation signal (which is known and calculable as well,) differences in the rate of process of time have been first theorised, then proven consistently.

And, this has nothing to do with acceleration (change of rate of travel,) strictly the rate of travel, or speed. Acceleration can be another subset of relativistic physics. ("Relativistic" relates to travel at/near the speed of light in a given medium - typically referred to, in a general sense, as "relativistic speeds".)

As far as "taking years" to get to the nearest star system (Alpha Centauri, one parsec or roughtly 4.5ly distant,) how many years depends on mode of travel. Yes, we can't summon up the energy (yet) to travel at lightspeed. Yes, we can't warp/fold space (or whatever) yet. However, we do have the technology to shorten the trip significantly as it is, and probably be there in a generation or so. Google <constant boost> WRT spaceships to see what I mean - maybe try <Bussard ramjet> as well, as it's a way to fuel a ship constantly using hydrogen from the interstellar void (which we already know to be present.)

We figured this out, who's to say that no-one else has already built working models? You'd still need "generation ships" (long trips - 20-50 years or so...) to get "around the neighbourhood", but it suddenly becomes quite possible. Getting a message back via radio would take considerably less time than the trip - until we can figure out how to send a massless signal "around" Einsteinian space-time. Once we do that, we'll already have a working theory for accessing higher dimensions for objects that have mass, and the c limit will be reduced from an "absolute" to an "annoyance."

@SBrad - "quantum physics - the dreams that stuff is made from." "Those who are not scared by quantum physics do not truly understand it." Quantum physics is a fascinating branch of study...

[TunaSoda]

Not really, it's more like Time is a property of an object sort of like mass/weight. We can manipulate that property under very specific conditions.

Think about it. If you traveled at the speed of light for a year my time and came back to earth. Time for you would have stopped, but for me and the rest the planet we would have experienced a full year that had passed. We would be a year old, and your age wouldn't have changed.
So, say you break a rock in half, and send half of it on it's way in the same manner, when you had the rocks back together a year later, they would both test different using carbon dating? :)

[TunaSoda]

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/rocket.html
Enjoy!
Still THEORY

[Bent]

So, say you break a rock in half, and send half of it on it's way in the same manner, when you had the rocks back together a year later, they would both test different using carbon dating? :)
Follow the link, young Luke.

[JNickel101]

You can manipulate it because its a measurement....you're not changing time itself, you're changing the device or the circumstances in which its measured. Sort of like the moon's gravity is about 1/6th as strong as Earth's - so if you took a scale up there, you'd weigh less on that scale. You didnt actually change, the variables surrounding that measurement changed, causing the number to be different.

I think I'm gonna have a stroke...lol

[Bent]

Still THEORY
So are the UFOs in this thread.

:D

[SBrad001]

@SBrad - "quantum physics - the dreams that stuff is made from." "Those who are not scared by quantum physics do not truly understand it." Quantum physics is a fascinating branch of study...


I hate this stuff. HATE IT. It's nice when someone else summarizes it in a concise and easy to understand medium, kind of like that black physicist dude on 'NOVA'. Otherwise this stuff sucks.

[TunaSoda]

So are the UFOs in this thread.

:D
Actually, I do believe there are objects that fly that I can't identify, doesn't mean it's a spacecraft or little green men, could be a plane

[Ray H]

An "atomic" clock has nothing to do with the speed of any atoms, it is based upon the rate of decay of an unstable isotope of an element that has a known and measured/measurable half-life (can't use something like uranium - half-life is too long. I think they're using an isotope of cesium right now - I know they were at one time. I'm sure it could be found - start with <NIST "atomic clock"> or something similar if you're really interested.)



Aaaaand if you slow down atomic movement, you slow down atomic degradation, right.

[SBrad001]

Aaaaand if you slow down atomic movement, you slow down atomic degradation, right.

The atomic clock stays on the ground.

The digital clock goes up in space.

Atomic decay doesn't involve atomic movement. Atomic decay is the spontaneous loss of a neutron from the nucleus of an isotope of a given element. Like carbon 14 decaying into carbon 13 or carbon 12. The clock measures these neutrons as these escape their atoms.

[RichP]

We had two atomic clocks on the sub, one Rubidium beam and one caesium beam, they needed to be calibrated once every 2 or 3 years to make up for the .000000000000000001 of a second [I think I might be missing some zeros :D]. Mostly they were used for synching crypto equipment and specom communications equipment but the ships internal navigation system used them also which got the missile control boys involved too.
Interesting thing, on one patrol where we were working down at AUTEC [Acoustic Underwater Testing and Evaluation Center] out of Andros in the Bahamas, we spent a lot of time in the triangle doing classified stuff but during one period the two SINS we had on board placed us in the middle of Iowa and down near South Africa, normally the 'agree' with each other within a few inches. We had to surface and synch with a satellite, reset the sins and go back down, then it happened again during the next pass on the range, repeated and went back to Fredrickstead in the Virgin Islands where we were actually tying up to a pier and left half the crew in a hotel to make room for the RCA technicians, had no further trouble and the team they sent down could find no fault in the system.
One of our 28 year senior chiefs said he had seen it before both in the Bermuda triangle and out in the pacific one too. He almost acted like he expected it as did the CO and XO.

[Ray H]

The atomic clock stays on the ground.

The digital clock goes up in space.

Atomic decay doesn't involve atomic movement. Atomic decay is the spontaneous loss of a neutron from the nucleus of an isotope of a given element. Like carbon 14 decaying into carbon 13 or carbon 12. The clock measures these neutrons as these escape their atoms.

Neutrons escaping from an atom sounds alot like atomic movement. The definition of decay is atomic movement. Its only when all movement stops does decay stop. Thats what absolute 0 is about. Its the temperature that all movement (decay) stops.
If you really want to see if time has slowed or spead up, freeze those atomic clocks and see if they are different when you return. that way it takes out the error of decay. An now you are thinking, if you freeze two clocks and run one of them at the speed of light, theres no way they will be different when the one returns. Exactly. take out the inaccuracies of our measurments and time wont change.

[8Mud]

Relativity
1. The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to one another (Galileo's principle of relativity),
2. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same for all observers, regardless of their relative motion or of the motion of the source of the light.

* Time dilation: Moving clocks are measured to tick more slowly than an observer's "stationary" clock.
* Length contraction: Objects are measured to be shortened in the direction that they are moving with respect to the observer.
* Relativity of simultaneity: two events that appear simultaneous to an observer A will not be simultaneous to an observer B if B is moving with respect to A.
* Mass-energy equivalence: E = mc2, energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable.

All of these things have been proven to be true through experiments and real world observations. Spacecraft 'lose' time in respect to earth when ever they go up and come down. The lunar missions lost time that was observable.

When you throw red shift and blue shift into the equation things get really complicated for me. When light is from the rear it shifts red, when from the front it shifts blue, when you are moving. The faster your velocity the more dramatic the shift.
When light changes to UV or IR is the speed still constant? Just how much different are the radiations (X-ray, Gamma etc.) we can measure and light waves of some sort?
We still have a lot of blanks to fill in. A lot of dots to connect.
We are still dealing with observable phenomenon and somewhat with phenomenon we can measure but are largely transparent to us. It's likely we have just scratched the surface.


1. The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to one another (Galileo's principle of relativity),

Two different solar systems seem unlikely to be moving in uniform motion relative to one another. Would they have the same Pyshics or math?

[SBrad001]

Neutrons escaping from an atom sounds alot like atomic movement. The definition of decay is atomic movement. Its only when all movement stops does decay stop. Thats what absolute 0 is about. Its the temperature that all movement (decay) stops.
If you really want to see if time has slowed or spead up, freeze those atomic clocks and see if they are different when you return. that way it takes out the error of decay.

Dude, you're confusing 'heat(atomic movement)' and radioactivity. Heat is the energy, which comes from the surrounding environment, that causes atoms to vibrate(move). . . while radioactivity refers to the decay of atoms into different atoms which requires no heat and actually relases energy into the surrounding environment.

[Ray H]

When you throw red shift and blue shift into the equation things get really complicated for me. When light is from the rear it shifts red, when from the front it shifts blue, when you are moving. The faster your velocity the more dramatic the shift.
When light changes to UV or IR is the speed still constant? Just how much different are the radiations (X-ray, Gamma etc.) we can measure and light waves of some sort?
We still have a lot of blanks to fill in. A lot of dots to connect.
We are still dealing with observable phenomenon and somewhat with phenomenon we can measure but are largely transparent to us. It's likely we have just scratched the surface.




Thats the easy part. Think of sound, its no different. When you hear a car coming towards you with the horn blowing, it sounds high pitched, as it passes you it gets lower in pitch. Its because the speed of the sound waves change in relation to you as the vehicle is either approaching you or going away from you. Light waves will act the same and change "tone" as they approach you or go away from you.
That has been my point. Breaking the light barrier is no different than breaking the sound barrier, just much faster. Nothing magical is going to happen, we wont be able to move backwards or forwards in time. The only thing that will happen is light around us will be distorted. probalby a huge flash (just like the bang at the sound barrier) and light will be distorted.

[Ray H]

Dude, you're confusing 'heat(atomic movement)' and radioactivity. Heat is the energy, which comes from the surrounding environment, that causes atoms to vibrate(move). . . while radioactivity refers to the decay of atoms into different atoms which requires no heat and actually relases energy into the surrounding environment.

heat IS atomic movement. Actually its a side effect of atomic movement.
Anyway, atomic movement has nothing to do with time travel. Atoms are moving all the time, at the speed of light, and time still goes on the same.

[Bent]

Its because the speed of the sound waves change...
They elongate or compress, not change in velocity.

[Ray H]

They elongate or compress, not change in velocity.

Youve got that backwards. In relation to someone standing still, A car horn coming at you at 60MPH verses the same car horn going away from you at 60 MPH. The sound waves are travelling at 120 MPH difference in relation to you standing still. Thats why they sound different.
Think of sound waves as a baseball thrown from the car.

[SBrad001]

Thats the easy part. Think of sound, its no different. When you hear a car coming towards you with the horn blowing, it sounds high pitched, as it passes you it gets lower in pitch. Its because the speed of the sound waves change in relation to you as the vehicle is either approaching you or going away from you. Light waves will act the same and change "tone" as they approach you or go away from you.
That has been my point. Breaking the light barrier is no different than breaking the sound barrier, just much faster. Nothing magical is going to happen, we wont be able to move backwards or forwards in time. The only thing that will happen is light around us will be distorted. probalby a huge flash (just like the bang at the sound barrier) and light will be distorted.

Sorry Ray, but according to what I know and I've studied, that is almost entirely untrue.

Red shift occurs because of two things, which go back and lend credence to the Theory of Relativity.

The first I can't explain because I don't understand it fully myself. But it has do with universal expansion.

And the other reason for redshift is time dilation due to gravity wells.

[Bent]

Think of sound waves as a baseball thrown from the car.
Think of the Doppler effect.

[Ray H]

Lets take that baseball to higher speeds. Suppose you are travelling at 50MPH slower than the speed of light and you throw a baseball ahaed of you at 70MPH. That baseball is now going faster than the speed of light by 20MPH. Who actually thinks its going to travel backwards or forwards in time just because you were able to throw it faster than light travels?

[SBrad001]

They elongate or compress, not change in velocity.


Tim's right, speed at which the sound waves are traveling doesn't change. But the frequency at which those sound waves reach the observer changes.

[Ray H]

Sorry Ray, but according to what I know and I've studied, that is almost entirely untrue.

Red shift occurs because of two things, which go back and lend credence to the Theory of Relativity.

The first I can't explain because I don't understand it fully myself. But it has do with universal expansion.

And the other reason for redshift is time dilation due to gravity wells.

Hmmm, you know and have studied it but cant explain it and dont understand it??????????????

I admit, I tend to look at things in their simplest forms. Simple tells me there is no relation between speed and time. I think scientists are as full of double talk as politicians.
Lets try something simple. What is a light year?

[JNickel101]

So if you took the atomic clock up into space...and accelerated it to the speed of light....whatever the element is that is used to "keep time" - that element would stop decaying?

[Ray H]

Tim's right, speed at which the sound waves are traveling doesn't change. But the frequency at which those sound waves reach the observer changes.
The speed of sound is 600MPH and a car blowing the horn and travelling towards me at 60MPH, What is the speed of the sound reaching me?

Same car drives past me at 60 MPH. what is the speed of the sound reaching me?
Answer is 660 towards me and 540 away from me. Two different speeds in relation to me.

[TunaSoda]

Lets take that baseball to higher speeds. Suppose you are travelling at 50MPH slower than the speed of light and you throw a baseball ahaed of you at 70MPH. That baseball is now going faster than the speed of light by 20MPH. Who actually thinks its going to travel backwards or forwards in time just because you were able to throw it faster than light travels?
But isn't the theory that nothing CAN go faster than light? (not saying I believe that)

[Bent]

What is a light year?
~186,282 miles X seconds in a year = a light year. No, I'm not going to do the math.

[Ray H]

So if you took the atomic clock up into space...and accelerated it to the speed of light....whatever the element is that is used to "keep time" - that element would stop decaying?

Yes. Im saying the tool that you use to keep time, atomic decay, will slow down as you come closer to the speed the decay happens. but a clock is just a measuring tool, its not time itself.

[JNickel101]

Yes. Im saying the tool that you use to keep time, atomic decay, will slow down as you come closer to the speed the decay happens. but a clock is just a measuring tool, its not time itself.

LOL..sorry, I wasnt posing the question directly to you....I was talking about the whole clock in space thing in general...

[JNickel101]

But isn't the theory that nothing CAN go faster than light? (not saying I believe that)

According to Einstein, yes....but he probably wasn't a baseball fan.

[Ray H]

~186,282 miles X seconds in a year = a light year. No, I'm not going to do the math.

Good, A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Now if time changes as you travel, how can a "light year" exist? If as you say, time and speed are the same, the term "light year" would be like trying to measure a minute year. It doesnt make sense. For it to mean anything, a year must be a fixed measurement. If time changes as you travel, then a year isnt fixed, its variable.

[Bent]

Suppose you are travelling at 50MPH slower than the speed of light and you throw a baseball ahaed of you at 70MPH. That baseball is now...
That baseball is now...behind you because the wind ripped your arm off; hand, baseball and all.


;)

[SBrad001]

Hmmm, you know and have studied it but cant explain it and dont understand it??????????????

I admit, I tend to look at things in their simplest forms. Simple tells me there is no relation between speed and time. I think scientists are as full of double talk as politicians.
Lets try something simple. What is a light year?


First off, I'm more than willing to admit to something that I don't understand fully. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. I'm just an engineer, not a physicist.


Secondly, are you joking about speed not being related to time? Speed is defined by time i.e. distance divided by time equals speed. It's a fundamental relationship.


Lastly, you have a computer, google is your friend you can figure out wat a light years is.

[JNickel101]

The speed of sound is 600MPH and a car blowing the horn and travelling towards me at 60MPH, What is the speed of the sound reaching me?

Same car drives past me at 60 MPH. what is the speed of the sound reaching me?
Answer is 660 towards me and 540 away from me. Two different speeds in relation to me.

I have to disagree...

Take driving a car at night. Driving at 35MPH with your headlights on vs driving 80MPH with your headlights on.

If your theory was right, then the footprint cast by your headlights would look the same. The light from your headlights is not traveling at the speed of light + 35MPH or 80MPH.

The baseball arguement isnt the same, because of the external force you're placing on the baseball. You can't "force" soundwaves to go faster or slower by driving faster or slower.

[SBrad001]

Good, A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Now if time changes as you travel, how can a "light year" exist? If as you say, time and speed are the same, the term "light year" would be like trying to measure a minute year. It doesnt make sense.

It's only changing in relation to the traveler. Not the rest of the universe. The universe 'sees' the traveler traveling at the speed of light, but to the traveler wouldn't 'see' anything out his window. Just a blank haze.

If time changes as you travel, then a year isnt fixed, its variable.

Exactly, time is a variable. It can change.

[Ray H]

First off, I'm more than willing to admit to something that I don't understand fully. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. I'm just an engineer, not a physicist.


Secondly, are you joking about speed not being related to time? Speed is defined by time i.e. distance divided by time equals speed. It's a fundamental relationship.


Lastly, you have a computer, google is your friend you can figure out wat a light years is.

You are right. I misused "speed" I should be saying movement. Movement and time arent related until we, as humans, make a relationship and call it speed.
The speed of light is a man made thing. Light travels as fast as it goes and we put numbers to it for the purpose of measuring it. This makes my point. For us to have a speed, we have to assign a time to the movement. How can we possibly assign a time to something that supposedly changes time?

[JNickel101]

It's only changing in relation to the traveler. Not the rest of the universe. The universe 'sees' the traveler traveling at the speed of light, but to the traveler wouldn't 'see' anything out his window. Just a blank haze.

That just made me think of Family Guy/Blue Harvest...when they're traveling through hyperspace and Peter/Han Solo comments about how weird hyperspace looks....

:roflmao:

[Ray H]

I have to disagree...

Take driving a car at night. Driving at 35MPH with your headlights on vs driving 80MPH with your headlights on.

If your theory was right, then the footprint cast by your headlights would look the same. The light from your headlights is not traveling at the speed of light + 35MPH or 80MPH.

The baseball arguement isnt the same, because of the external force you're placing on the baseball. You can't "force" soundwaves to go faster or slower by driving faster or slower.

Yep, your lights would look exactly the same no matter what speed you go. The light is still leaving its source at the same speed. The reason a basball slows down is because of resistance. if you are in a jet traveling above the speed of sound and you yell, you voice will be going the speed of sound plus whatever speed the jet is going.

[SBrad001]

You are right. I misused "speed" I should be saying movement. Movement and time arent related until we, as humans, make a relationship and call it speed.
The speed of light is a man made thing. Light travels as fast as it goes and we put numbers to it for the purpose of measuring it. This makes my point. For us to have a speed, we have to assign a time to the movement. How can we possibly assign a time to something that supposedly changes time?

We assign measurements to time by relating movement to a fixed(as it appears to us) object.

We experience 'time' in a linear fashion, but Time can speed up or slow down depending on where and what the observer is doing.

[Trail-Axe]

First off, I'm more than willing to admit to something that I don't understand fully. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that.

:rolleyes:

[Bent]

Good, A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Now if time changes as you travel, how can a "light year" exist?
It is the distance traveled WHILE traveling at the speed of light.

For it to mean anything, a year must be a fixed measurement.
Exactly. Time is fixed in relation to the person, if you will traveling at light speed. It is also fixed in relation to objects not traveling at light speed. The "warping" of time is the difference/ratio between the two.
Velocity is not the only force involved, acceleration ("de"-celeration, gravitational forces) can also have a profound effect on time. You cannot fit this into a 3D way of looking at space.

[SBrad001]

:rolleyes:

Go away troll.

[Bent]

if you are in a jet traveling above the speed of sound and you yell, you voice will be going the speed of sound plus whatever speed the jet is going.
The speed of sound is NOT relative to itself.

[Ray H]

I gotta go to work but mull this one over.
If the speed of light is XXXX miles per second.
As you reach the speed of light, if time slows down. That means a second gets longer than it was until eventually time would stop. If that happens, nothing would ever be able to reach the speed of light, not even light.

[Ray H]

The speed of sound is NOT relative to itself.

Not relative to itself but it is relative to its source.

[Bent]

Not relative to itself but it is relative to its source.
Ever hear a jet traveling @ near the speed of sound approach?

[JNickel101]

Yep, your lights would look exactly the same no matter what speed you go. The light is still leaving its source at the same speed. The reason a basball slows down is because of resistance. if you are in a jet traveling above the speed of sound and you yell, you voice will be going the speed of sound plus whatever speed the jet is going.

You need to go test this out....your lights won't look the same...the footprint at 80MPH will appear smaller...

[SBrad001]

I gotta go to work but mull this one over.
If the speed of light is XXXX miles per second.
As you reach the speed of light, if time slows down. That means a second gets longer than it was until eventually time would stop. If that happens, nothing would ever be able to reach the speed of light, not even light.

Now you're on the right track. Very funky stuff.

[Trail-Axe]

I believe in life outside this planet, and outside this dimension. The Bible doesn't say the word "dinosaurs", but it does speak of Leviathan which many people believe to be dinosaurs. I think there's way too much to even contemplate dinosaurs being made up. However, I believe in a young Earth. There's been some inconsistencies with Carbon 14 dating that make me not fully believe in its accuracy. Not to mention that there's been somewhat recent research showing that depending on conditions, sometimes (apparently quite often) isotopes can erode faster or slower than what is accounted for by Carbon 14. What throws me though is it that the world of Christian scientists is split on this, even down to the young earth followers. Some believe in Carbon 14 as being accurate and use it, others say its phony.
As far as life outside our planet and dimension, I believe God and the angels could be in a separate dimension, its the best idea I can come up with for how He can be outside of time. Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am". This was 1000+ yrs after Abraham's time. I think their dimension could even overlap ours, they could be walking among us, keeping an eye on us, helping even on occasion, and we'd never see em unless they wanted us to. Do I believe in UFOs? Certainly, there's plenty of objects flying around that haven't been identified. Do I believe in extra terrestrial life forms? You bet, I believe that angels are real, just like demons. I believe they can take on different forms.

But, that in a nutshell is my belief on all of this.

Very well said!

[Bent]

Very funky stuff.
And nine kinds of fun!!!

[JNickel101]

Go away troll.

:roflmao:

I've seen him lurking on this thread for a while, it was only a matter of time before he :lecture:

[JNickel101]

"I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

Let's keep it that way...

[Skwerly]

I believe because I believe in science. It is theoretically (and I use that term on purpose) impossible not to have another planet in the same proximity as Earth is to the Sun with the same or similar circumstances. Planets are too small yet in other galaxies for our stuff to see, but we can see slight shift in their stars, indicating the orbit of a planet.

At any rate, yea, I think there is probably life out there. :)

[Bent]

Not relative to itself but it is relative to its source.
Ray, this may help. Hit the "pause" or "play" button to start the animation.

http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/more_stuff/flashlets/doppler.htm (http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/more_stuff/flashlets/doppler.htm)

The slider at the right will adjust the speed of the source relative to the wave speed constant. In the case of sound it is relative to its transmission medium, air or water for example. Keep in mind that this works for sound waves and water waves. It does not account for Doppler shift of light because it does not allow for time dilation.

[Bent]

The second thing with traveling at the speed of light is Einstien's Light speed constant. . . it would take an infinite amount of energy in order to accelerate to the speed of light because mass approaches an infinite value. Very bad things.
Interesting little bit of trivia,
"By conventional means, accelerating a 1-ton payload to 90 percent of the speed of light requires an amount of energy equivalent to 30 billion tons of TNT. "

:shocked:

[SBrad001]

Interesting little bit of trivia,
"By conventional means, accelerating a 1-ton payload to 90 percent of the speed of light requires an amount of energy equivalent to 30 billion tons of TNT. "

:shocked:

Neat! :D

i wish i had 30 billion tons of TNT. . . .

[5-90]

I believe because I believe in science. It is theoretically (and I use that term on purpose) impossible not to have another planet in the same proximity as Earth is to the Sun with the same or similar circumstances. Planets are too small yet in other galaxies for our stuff to see, but we can see slight shift in their stars, indicating the orbit of a planet.

At any rate, yea, I think there is probably life out there. :)

There are far too many Type G stars out there, and several of the ones we've seen "in the neigbourhood" have had Class M planets around them. The odds that we are actually alone are astronomical.

Type G = Sol
Class M = Earth

[Bent]

There are far too many Type G stars out there, and several of the ones we've seen "in the neigbourhood" have had Class M planets around them. The odds that we are actually alone are astronomical.

Type G = Sol
Class M = Earth
With space being infinite that number would also jump to infinite; yes?

[JNickel101]

How much would an infinite amount of TNT weigh...

traveling at the speed of light....

[SBrad001]

With space being infinite that number would also jump to infinite; yes?

For all intent and purpose, infinite it is. I just don't believe we will ever ccross paths with one another.

[JNickel101]

Awww come on Brady, we're bound to find a Stargate sometime.....we just have to keep digging in Egypt...

[5-90]

Awww come on Brady, we're bound to find a Stargate sometime.....we just have to keep digging in Egypt...

We love that show! Friday nights, everything stops for the new Stargate Atlantis for an hour (used to be two, but we now have all of the SG-1 on DVD. As well as the Director's Cut of the movie...)

I can't agree with Richard Dean Anderson's politics, but the character of Jack O'Neill (as he played it) reminded me a good deal of my old CO...

[SBrad001]

We love that show! Friday nights, everything stops for the new Stargate Atlantis for an hour (used to be two, but we now have all of the SG-1 on DVD. As well as the Director's Cut of the movie...)

I can't agree with Richard Dean Anderson's politics, but the character of Jack O'Neill (as he played it) reminded me a good deal of my old CO...

Politics? What are MacGyver's politics?

[5-90]

Politics? What are MacGyver's politics?

Board of Directors, Handgun Control, Inc/Violence Policy Center.

[SBrad001]

Board of Directors, Handgun Control, Inc/Violence Policy Center.


I want more details before I get suitably outraged!

[5-90]

I want more details before I get suitably outraged!

Look him up. He's been anti-gun for the longest time - that's why Angus MacGyver never used a gun.

I've long wondered how RDA can reconcile his "personal" persona with the gun-toting "Jack O'Neill," but some things aren't easy to explain.

Then there's Angelina Jolie. She bought a brace of H&K USPs (like she carried or Tomb Raider) for home defense.

Sinbad's hobby is Cowboy Action Shooting.

Tom Selleck does some CA shooting, and some long-range shooting as well (remember that shot at the bucket for Quigley Down Under? That was actually Tom Selleck shooting, and the range was later measured at somewhere around 750-800y. Not bad for a vernier iron sight...)

Not all of Hollyweird is nuts, but you never hear much about the guys with their heads screwed on straight...

(http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000760/bio - First entry under "Trivia." He's done some impressive stuff as well - like the bike trip from MN to AK - but you'd think he'd be pro-gun after biking the AlCan...)

[JNickel101]

Sinbad was in the USAF...I think he was a cop...

[Bent]

Sinbad was in the USAF...
Anything to do with UFOs?


:D

[SBrad001]

Anything to do with UFOs?


:D

Back to physics, space travel and the non existence of UFOs!














































So! Who's going to go see the "X-Files: I want to believe."?

[5-90]

Back to physics, space travel and the non existence of UFOs!

So! Who's going to go see the "X-Files: I want to believe."?

I'm sure I'll be watching it sooner or later - if for no reason other than Gillian Anderson...

Seriously, I did enjoy both of the Chris Carter shows that hit it biggish - they were cast well, and the stories were quite good in the main ("Milennium" was the other one, with Lance Henriksen leading that cast.)

[RichP]

Interesting little bit of trivia,
"By conventional means, accelerating a 1-ton payload to 90 percent of the speed of light requires an amount of energy equivalent to 30 billion tons of TNT. "

:shocked:

There is an interesting space ship concept, drive actually, where the ship has a large magazine with megaton hydrogen bombs and a big bell shield in the back, a bomb in inserted in the bell and detonated, then another and another, each one adding to acceleration till the desired speed is reached. Inertia damping is a must :D :D :D

[RichP]

(http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000760/bio - First entry under "Trivia." He's done some impressive stuff as well - like the bike trip from MN to AK - but you'd think he'd be pro-gun after biking the AlCan...)

Look at John Denver, during the gas shortage of the 70's he had 5,000 gallon gas storage tanks put in at his house in Colorado. He also did a trip to explore polar bears in the great white north, he made a point of NOT having a gun, only a camera, unfortunately if you looked at the shadows of the support crew during shooting they were either armed or all carrying PRC 77 radios with 3 ft antennas on them. LOL....

[Mudderoy]

Someone posted a message about using nuclear bombs to propel a spacecraft.

You may be surprised to learn that the US Government developed a nuclear rocket in the 50's. Stanton Friedman (famed UFO researcher and nuclear physicist) worked on the project. They completed it and the nuclear rocket was fully functional. It was called the NERVA project.

I have read that the NERVA project nuclear rocket(s) would be able to launch two International space stations into orbit, in one launch.

The NERVA project made possible for engineers to envision a 5 year mission around our solar system investigating planets and moons. There would be a crew of 75 people on board the ship! Any one remember the original Star Trek opening dialog?

Basically we have the technology RIGHT NOW to launch huge payloads into space if it weren't for the hippified tree huggers that put a stop to the use of nuclear propulsion. Interestingly, the current president signed a bill several years ago, making the use of nuclear power in space. I wonder if the military is using the nuclear rockets, or perhaps electricity generation for a field propulsion device.

[5-90]

Someone posted a message about using nuclear bombs to propel a spacecraft.

You may be surprised to learn that the US Government developed a nuclear rocket in the 50's. Stanton Friedman (famed UFO researcher and nuclear physicist) worked on the project. They completed it and the nuclear rocket was fully functional. It was called the NERVA project.

I have read that the NERVA project nuclear rocket(s) would be able to launch two International space stations into orbit, in one launch.

The NERVA project made possible for engineers to envision a 5 year mission around our solar system investigating planets and moons. There would be a crew of 75 people on board the ship! Any one remember the original Star Trek opening dialog?

Basically we have the technology RIGHT NOW to launch huge payloads into space if it weren't for the hippified tree huggers that put a stop to the use of nuclear propulsion. Interestingly, the current president signed a bill several years ago, making the use of nuclear power in space. I wonder if the military is using the nuclear rockets, or perhaps electricity generation for a field propulsion device.

I'd like to know why we don't have a permanent outpost on the Moon yet. Hell, we've had the technology to do it for the last thirty years or so, and it would make an excellent "jumping-off point" for the rest of the System.

In all reality, there's no practical reason why we shouldn't have had most of the System mapped by "boots on the ground" by now (I say "most" becase Jupiter and Saturn have no hard surface that we know of. Doesn't mean it's not there - and they'd be the last to be mapped I'm sure...)

[kdailey4315]

Basically we have the technology RIGHT NOW to launch huge payloads into space if it weren't for the hippified tree huggers that put a stop to the use of nuclear propulsion.

That is because all of those tree huggers and hippies are too stupid to seperate the nuclear and bomb. They see they word nuclear and just think of WWII.

[JNickel101]

Anything to do with UFOs?


:D

Nope...but since when has this thread stayed on topic?

Here ya go :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,390161,00.html

[TRNDRVR]

Though TrnDrver may not have any tact, at least he has the fortitude to say what he actually feels, and does not beat around the proverbial bush. He may sound like a jerk, but a coward he is not.Finally!!! :D

[JNickel101]

Careful....I think he likes you...