Test Only Smog help?

[cracker]

hint hint ;) ;)

BTW LA County if it makes a difference.

It is not due until early November

[ruggedjeep]

:eyes: :D

We're shit outta luck dude. We've had no luck either :cry:

[cal]

Cracker you gotta ask me about this stuff in person. :) As I have told you before, I can source -ANYTHING-.

;)

[sintax]

convert it to run on propane, and once you get it approval from the BAR on that, you are exempt from any further tests, just convert it back. You can find all the parts you need on ebay for less then $40

Or just green sticker it.

[5-90]

CARB's site doesn't list stations down there?

Granted, I've been trying to convince those fools that, as far as I'm concerned, ALL stations are "Test Only" (I don't allow them to do repairs...) but they're not buying it. I'm getting tired of paying more for the smog check than I pay for tags...

Try this link...

http://159.145.15.175/StationList/StationList.aspx

5-90

[cal]

Sometimes 5-90 you need to read between the HTML. ;)

[5-90]

Sometimes 5-90 you need to read between the HTML. ;)

Aw, gimme a break. I'm psychotic, not psychic...:wierd:

5-90

[TheWarWagon]

convert it to run on propane, and once you get it approval from the BAR on that, you are exempt from any further tests, just convert it back. You can find all the parts you need on ebay for less then $40

Or just green sticker it.

Does my vehicle qualify for a smog exemption?
Smog inspections are required unless your vehicle is:

Hybrid
1975 year model or older
Diesel powered
Electric
Natural gas powered and has a Gross Vehicle Weight rating of 14,001 lbs. or more.
Motorcycle
TrailerThat'd have to be one heavy jeep to get away with CNG

[FarmerMatt]

We've got 4 ranch trucks on propane & still have to smog them...??

[cracker]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975567#post975567

Help!

[MJR]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975567#post975567

Help!

Dude your cat ain't doing shit with those numbers.

[Gerr]

agreed, prolly bashed it a few to many times

[Clean Racing]

Why do ya need a plate on the buggy anyways?? Your cat is not doing anything but taking up space.. I would also throw an O2 in for good measure as well... Then make sure the thing is Hot when you take it to test.

[RWKHausSupply]

Avery, how old / bad looking is the cat? Is it a stock replacment? If its not that "bashed" in and a stock replacment let me know if you want me to take it in to autozone for a warranty exchange. Got one there about 6 months ago and its a lifetime warranty... Only it has to be a stock replacment type with the 4bolt front flange?

[JohnX]

Gotta disagree guys. The only failure is on NOx...A CAT is not the answer. And having it hot will only increase the NOx. Hot motor is to get rid of HC's which he is not high on.

[Clean Racing]

Gotta disagree guys. The only failure is on NOx...A CAT is not the answer. And having it hot will only increase the NOx. Hot motor is to get rid of HC's which he is not high on.

Care to explain?? He only failed NOX, and has no EGR, so I am curious?? Only reason I say cat- is that is the same readings I had two years ago on my renix, slamed a new cat in it - passed flying colors.. The only reason I say get it hot, is that most of the smog techs these days are not very bright.. Now let me guess your a smog tech huh?? Granted he could go a heat range colder on the plugs and probibly help it out..

[cracker]

The cat is 100% brand new and it is huge (no dents and still shiney). :|.

The smog tech said it was not the Cat at all either.

[RWKHausSupply]

All I can add is what I read..

Let's consider the things that can cause NO^sub x^ to increase to an abnormally high level. Oxides of nitrogen (NO^sub x^) are formed when the combustion chamber temperature exceeds 2500°F (the ignition point for compressed nitrogen). The engine must normally be under some kind of load before it develops such high combustion chamber temperatures.Many emissions systems rely on an EGR valve to lower combustion chamber temperatures. Adding a small amount of inert exhaust gas when tlie engine is under load lowers the temperature in tlie combustion chambers just enough to reduce the formation of NO^sub x^. I've always thought this mediod was similar to feeding manure to a horse. Automotive engineers must agree because many vehicles now manage to control NOx without the help of an EGR valve. The Jeep you're working on is one such vehicle.
But everything else must be working properly if the EGR valve crutch is removed. As you correctly surmised, combustion chamber deposits can artificially raise the compression ratio and encourage the formation of NO^sub x^. Overaclvanced ignition timing can also cause NO^sub x^ formation. Since the Jeep does not have an externally adjustable ignition system, we should be able to rule it out as a possible cause in this case. Jury-rigging the ignition in an attempt to retard the timing is not an acceptable solution.
Check with the owner to make sure the PCM hasn't been "chipped" or modified in some other way. One quick and dirty way to increase engine performance is to change the spark advance curve. This used to be accomplished by changing the advance springs in the distributor. Now it's done by changing the PCM's timing decisions. Too much advance at the wrong time, caused by an aftermarket chip modification, could be responsible for the excessive NOx problem.
A lean air/fuel mixture can also encourage NO^sub x^ formation. The lean mixture can be caused by insufficient fuel pressure or volume, or the engine management system may actually be commanding the mixture lean. This could occur if the PCM is receiving bogus information from an oxygen sensor that has a lazy response rate or has become biased rich. Your emissions readings didn't include an Oo reading, which would have been helpful in determining whether the engine is running rich or lean under load.
Be sure to consult Sam Bells article on lambda in this issue ("What Goes In..."). The lambda calculation is a great way to determine whether an engine is running rich or lean, without having to concern yourself with other influences.
Last of all, an engine that's running hotter than normal will encourage NO^sub x^ formation. A faulty thermostat or a clogged cooling system could be keeping the Jeep's operating temperature just shy of overheating. Adding a load pushes the combustion chamber temperature to the point where NO^sub x^ formation increases to an unhealthy level. The engine should be producing almost no NO^sub x^ at idle. If the NO^sub x^ reading is high at idle, run through the NO^sub x^-influencing factors I've listed until you find the cause.

[JohnX]

Care to explain?? He only failed NOX, and has no EGR, so I am curious?? Only reason I say cat- is that is the same readings I had two years ago on my renix, slamed a new cat in it - passed flying colors.. The only reason I say get it hot, is that most of the smog techs these days are not very bright.. Now let me guess your a smog tech huh?? Granted he could go a heat range colder on the plugs and probibly help it out..
Nope...Just a lowly mechanic. I was merely passing on info from a friend of mine who is a smog guy and has been for many years. I don't know what NOx is or how to raise or lower it. I only know what I'm told. I was told a cooler ENGINE creates less NOx and high humidity with low air temp also lowers it. A cooler CAT will not burn off the extra HC's, but HC's aren't the issue.

[MJR]

Then make sure the thing is Hot when you take it to test.


That is the PROBLEM.

[MJR]

Gotta disagree guys. The only failure is on NOx...A CAT is not the answer. And having it hot will only increase the NOx. Hot motor is to get rid of HC's which he is not high on.

Wrong!. Here's some reading material and a link. The following is from this site http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm It is likely he got the wrong cat. NOX is created by high combustion chamber temps so a overheating engine or lean running can make the problem worse. So an O2 sensor could help along with regular service (tuneup/cap/rotor/wires and a combustion chamber decarb if needed) and a good cat conv.



"Catalytic converters can either be an oxidation or three-way type. Oxidation catalysts convert carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide (CO2) and water, but have little effect on nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulate matter. Three-way catalysts operate in a closed-loop system together with a lambda, or oxygen, sensor to regulate the air/fuel ratio on gasoline engines. The catalyst can then at the same time oxidize CO and HC to CO2 and water while reducing NOx to nitrogen.

Most cars today are equipped with a three-way catalytic converter. The term Three-way refers to the three emissions it helps to reduce, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and NOx molecules. The converter uses two different types of catalysts, a reduction catalyst and an oxidization catalyst. Both types consist of a base structure coated with a catalyst such as platinum, rhodium and/or palladium. The scheme is to create a structure that exposes the maximum surface area of the catalyst to the exhaust flow, while also minimizing the amount of catalyst required."

[cracker]

That is the PROBLEM.

Actually it was ridiculously hot! :flame: I ran it for 1/2 hour basically rev'd out full bore trying to get the thing hot and it was probably hotter than anytime I have ever used it before.

As far as the 'right or wrong' cat, it was the same cat that got Paul's '96 passed. Still does not answer whether it is the 'right or wrong' cat but it worked three weeks ago. Paul's problem, as I am sure you read, was HCs.

[JohnX]

Wrong!. Here's some reading material and a link. The following is from this site http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm It is likely he got the wrong cat. NOX is created by high combustion chamber temps so a overheating engine or lean running can make the problem worse. So an O2 sensor could help along with regular service (tuneup/cap/rotor/wires and a combustion chamber decarb if needed) and a good cat conv.



"Catalytic converters can either be an oxidation or three-way type. Oxidation catalysts convert carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide (CO2) and water, but have little effect on nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulate matter. Three-way catalysts operate in a closed-loop system together with a lambda, or oxygen, sensor to regulate the air/fuel ratio on gasoline engines. The catalyst can then at the same time oxidize CO and HC to CO2 and water while reducing NOx to nitrogen.

Most cars today are equipped with a three-way catalytic converter. The term Three-way refers to the three emissions it helps to reduce, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and NOx molecules. The converter uses two different types of catalysts, a reduction catalyst and an oxidization catalyst. Both types consist of a base structure coated with a catalyst such as platinum, rhodium and/or palladium. The scheme is to create a structure that exposes the maximum surface area of the catalyst to the exhaust flow, while also minimizing the amount of catalyst required."

How can you say I am wrong with any authority? I did not say any of you were wrong, just that I disagree and I offered possible solutions to the problem. NOx is obviously caused by high combustion temps and can be helped by high humidity (or water injection ;) ) and that was the basis for my answer. I don't KNOW if his Jeep has other problems, I was just suggesting a way to get it passed without having to spend big bucks "fixing" things.

[cal]

$20 says if he just changes the o2 sensor it passes.

[JohnX]

I got 20 that says all he has to do is spray some water in the intake while testing and it passes :D

[cal]

I'll confess I was only looking at realistic solutions.. ;)

[JohnX]

I'll confess I was only looking at realistic solutions.. ;)
It works if you know the smog tech. :D

[MJR]

Alright all I can do is bitch but what really pisses me off is half-assing something instead of fixing the damn problem right. Do what you will I don't really f*@%ing care. Of course how many parts do you want to shotgun to to find the problem and how much are you going to spend before you find the right one. Don't believe me, just ask Remi. Ok so I am a dealer tech (the ones everybody says are ripping you off, FU) and have been working around Jeeps since 87/88, but what do I know. That's all for now folks, have a nice day.

[MJR]

How can you say I am wrong with any authority?

The only failure is on NOx...A CAT is not the answer.

Three-way catalysts... The catalyst can then at the same time oxidize CO and HC to CO2 and water while reducing NOx to nitrogen.

Based on the quotes above you felt that a catalytic converter had no affect on NOX tailpipe emissions, correct?

[Bryan C.]

Alright all I can do is bitch but what really pisses me off is half-assing something instead of fixing the damn problem right. Do what you will I don't really f*@%ing care. Of course how many parts do you want to shotgun to to find the problem and how much are you going to spend before you find the right one. Don't believe me, just ask Remi. Ok so I am a dealer tech (the ones everybody says are ripping you off, FU) and have been working around Jeeps since 87/88, but what do I know. That's all for now folks, have a nice day.

Mike, I feel your pain. Just because you can fix cars in real life every single day doesn't mean that people are going to listen to you. This is exactly why I don't respond to these posts anymore. A well worded PM seems to be more effective and cause less turmoil for the guy asking for help.

[Gerr]

Alright all I can do is bitch but what really pisses me off is half-assing something instead of fixing the damn problem right. Do what you will I don't really f*@%ing care. Of course how many parts do you want to shotgun to to find the problem and how much are you going to spend before you find the right one. Don't believe me, just ask Remi. Ok so I am a dealer tech (the ones everybody says are ripping you off, FU) and have been working around Jeeps since 87/88, but what do I know. That's all for now folks, have a nice day.
Mike, We all know you are the jeep guru and I for one totally understand your frustration. Youve help me out by just asking questions on more than one ocasion and you have always been more than willing to try and help in any way you can. I salute you sir! :cheers: you are one of few people on here I wana learn from.

"Do what you will I don't really f*@%ing care" Umm Mike we all care cuz when some thing half assed breaks on the trail we all end up waiting or helping fix it again if nothing else in another half assed way to get them and everyone else off the trail. I for one enjoyed your knowledge on the trail and you helped get my heep off the trail and even helped clean up the mess my oil pan left.

[MJR]

I did not say any of you were wrong, just that I disagree and I offered possible solutions to the problem. NOx is obviously caused by high combustion temps and can be helped by high humidity (or water injection ;) ) and that was the basis for my answer. I don't KNOW if his Jeep has other problems, I was just suggesting a way to get it passed without having to spend big bucks "fixing" things.

Yes an O2 sensor can cause it to run lean (high NOX or rich/high HC), yes NOX forms in very high combustion chamber temps and yes water injection can reduce NOX by cooling the combustion chamber temps.

There are other things that can cause it like, intake air leak (extra air getting in causing a lean condition), exhaust leak (extra air getting in affecting O2 sensor readings), bad catalytic converter (not reducing NOX to nitrogen), combustion chamber carbon buildup (changing compression ratio), etc...

[JohnX]

Mike...I'm not arguing with you. Everything you've said make sense, but sometimes you just want to pass smog. Like I said, I was making suggestions on how to get it passed, not on what the cause might be. I gave up internet diagnosis a long time ago. Avery simply wants it to pass, from what I gather...how it passes doesn't matter.

Peace man....I know you're good, you know you're good, so lets not get upset about this.

[MJR]

I not really upset, just joshin. :D

[JohnX]

I not really upset, just joshin. :D
Cool...Hard to tell in Black and White :D

[MJR]

Cool...Hard to tell in Black and White :D

Exactly that's why most misunderstand without seeing the persons expressions in real life.