I missed the news.. True? Did he say this?

[scottmcneal]

As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation. To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--and to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that. How far this nation has come from what our founding fathers intended it to be.

I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your concerns, written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your email list. With God's help, and He is still in control of this nation and all else, we can show this man and the world in November that we are, indeed, still a Christian nation!

[GrimmJeeper]

im catholic :D

[GSequoia]

But...

We're not a so-called Christian Nation. Whether what he said that or not, we're not a Christian Nation.

I wonder if he'll use "Heresy" by Nine Inch Nails as the campaign theme song, that'd fawking rock!

[SeansBlueXJ]

This country was never Christian. And last I looked it was for religous freedom where the Church and State were seperate. Remember the whole "melting pot"? that doesnt just apply to race, but creed too.

[Markos]

Our forefathers fought for a free nation. Part of that feedom included the first amendmant. 70% of the world population is not Christian. Oh nose! The sky is falling!

[TRNDRVR]

As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation. To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--and to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that. How far this nation has come from what our founding fathers intended it to be.

I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your concerns, written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your email list. With God's help, and He is still in control of this nation and all else, we can show this man and the world in November that we are, indeed, still a Christian nation!
Hate to burst your small little bubble there pal, but he's right.

We're NOT a christian nation.

And if it matters, I don't have any "christians" on my email list. At least none that I know of. I personally don't know my friends by what they read while taking a dump on a sunday morning.

[xj-grin]

While it is true that the bulk of the nation at the time of our independence was "christian" in some sense of the word, the intellectuals that are commonly referred to as our "founders" were in fact "diests" rejecting the bulk of the bible other than the moral guide therein as fiction, and believing in a supreme creator who was somewhat uninvolved and ambivilent to the lives of men -- Jefferson, Franklin and Washington in particular. The entire idea that we were founded as a "christian nation" is misguided, and continuing to insist on it does nothing but divide americans who may not believe as you do. Not the best way to embody the "united" vision of our republic. just my 2 cents


and don't take that as any sort of endorsement of Obama, he will not be getting my vote.:piratefla

[mountainpoo]

im right with you scottmcneal. your right 100%.

[9lared0]

If you honestly beleive our forefathers fought and died for a christian nation, you have seriously mis-interpreted this fine nation's history. Did you ever study the constituition? Have you ever read the bill of rights? Next time you think about making a political statement, go ahead and don't. If you want to choke out people's right to freedom of religion, you should choke out your own right to free speech.

[scottmcneal]

Like i said, i didn't hear this i got it e-mailed.. I'm asking a ?.. This is not a political statement a hole... I don't trust him as it is.. So you can go an kiss him if you want.. Now did any one see this on tv.. That is the ? Is my friend talking out his butt or what? Thanks

[cracked-butt]

well as a non-christian myself. i have to agree with obama on that. not that i'll vote for him, but he does happen to be right, on that point anyhow.
and as stated by enough others on here, go read the bill of rights & constitution, & any othere works that may have been written to set up this great nations government.

to answer the actual question, i dont know, i missed the news too.
but my gf saw on some news today that the rev. jesse jackson was cought saying that he would like to "cut that mans b@lls off" lmao! imagine that!!! jesse jackson saying such thingsa!!! roflmao







just my 2 cents.

[GSequoia]

Like i said, i didn't hear this i got it e-mailed.. I'm asking a ?.. This is not a political statement a hole... I don't trust him as it is.. So you can go an kiss him if you want.. Now did any one see this on tv.. That is the ? Is my friend talking out his butt or what? Thanks

Attitude much?

[SBrad001]

Like i said, i didn't hear this i got it e-mailed.. I'm asking a ?.. This is not a political statement a hole... I don't trust him as it is.. So you can go an kiss him if you want.. Now did any one see this on tv.. That is the ? Is my friend talking out his butt or what? Thanks


Hey Scott,

It appears that with a simple Google search, that the quote is true and attributed to Obama.

Have fun with that one! :D

[Jes]

Like i said, i didn't hear this i got it e-mailed.. I'm asking a ?.. This is not a political statement a hole... I don't trust him as it is.. So you can go an kiss him if you want.. Now did any one see this on tv.. That is the ? Is my friend talking out his butt or what? Thanks


Say what?

[5-90]

The simple fact that we have wide-open "freedom of religion" makes the idea of the United States being a "Christian" nation oxymoronic.

If we were a "Christian nation," I higly doubt we'd have the religious freedom we've enjoyed for the last 232 years.

I frankly don't care what people believe in - as long as they act toward me as I act toward them. One need not even believe in a Supreme Being/Great Architect/whatever to be able to live by a moral code - and the idea of "morality" is simply a set of unwritten rules that guide people's behaviour - treating others well is actually in your own best interest (whether this makes a "moral code" the underpinnin of the "social contract," a superset thereof, or a subset thereof; I don't know. Nor do I honestly care. It's easy enough for people to get along, and I don't understand why they don't. However, I do firmly feel that the portion of society that refuses to get along with the rest of us should be excised from society in society's own interests - we need a Coventry until people can get their heads together.

Are we a Christian nation? We can be said to be either "atheistic/agnostic" (no particular/official belief to speak of) or "polythestic" (we'll believe anything and everything, collectively.) You want a better idea of our "official religion?" Look up "Slag-Blah Church of The Winslow" (it's a creation of Phil Foglio for his series Buck Godot - and The Winslow is a running joke in nearly everything he does.)

"Cristian nation?" I don't think so.

"Vote for Obama?" Hell, no! I'd rather cast a vote for Mickey Mouse... Democrats haven't fielded an acceptable candidate since JFK.

[Ramsey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuZQ71Zm0cQ

(ignore the pictures...or not)

[GrimmJeeper]

what about the pagans and the wiccans? they were tried and burned at the stake! :flame:

freedom of religion my ass :cheers:

[GSequoia]

freedom of religeon my ass :cheers:
Not true.

There has always been freedom from religion*.




*As long as you're some form of Christian.

[GrimmJeeper]

*As long as you're some form of Christian. exaclty.

[5-90]

what about the pagans and the wiccans? they were tried and burned at the stake! :flame:

freedom of religion my ass :cheers:

By the Puritans, not by the American government. Didn't that happen before America was, anyhow? Probably part of the impetus behind Freedom of Religion in the first place - we have Pagans and Wiccans now, don't we?

[GrimmJeeper]

we have Pagans and Wiccans now, don't we? shhh :eyes:

:D

[scottmcneal]

Hey Scott,

It appears that with a simple Google search, that the quote is true and attributed to Obama.

Have fun with that one! :D


Thank you sir, i was thinking my friend was being a a$$ again.. I'm not trying to be a ass myself, just asking..

[TRNDRVR]

One need not even believe in a Supreme Being/Great Architect/whatever to be able to live by a moral code - and the idea of "morality" is simply a set of unwritten rules that guide people's behaviour Now, if all the religious wack jobs/rock bottom hitting born again's would believe what you've written in your above quote, I wouldn't be such a DICK!!! (or maybe not)

[ehall]

Well the country is certainly built on Christian standards. Just look at monogamy, for example. If we were truly neutral about it we'd have polygamy 200 years ago.

All of NATO is a white christian gun club

[Smittty9785]

im catholic :D
amen brother x2...

[5-90]

Now, if all the religious wack jobs/rock bottom hitting born again's would believe what you've written in your above quote, I wouldn't be such a DICK!!! (or maybe not)

Yeah. Ron White said it best - "You can't fix stupid."

My BIL is an example of the "rock-bottom-hitting born-again." It's been eleven years, and he still tries to preach to me until I just tell him to shut up.

Whack jobs? More than a few - unfortunately, global population is too large to get rid of them (the Law of Averages will produce them, if nothing else.)

@ehall - "Christian Standards?" Probably - considering that the Judeo-Christian ethos was predominant at the time. And I can't really argue with you on your NATO comment, either.

However, isn't polygamy only common in Mormon societies and "tribal" populations? Not that I've any trouble with it, but we seem to have "evolved away" from it.

(I honestly don't have a problem with polygamy/andry/gyny - as long as everyone involved is happy and it works for them.)

[Mtb Jak]

..anti...christ...

[KickFacer Media]

Obamas Campaign is all about "CHANGE" Well at least that’s what he is running with!.

Many people do not like president bush "CHANGE"

Health Insurance "CHANGE"

Out Source Manufacturing "CHANGE"

Retirement and Economic "CHANGE" "CHANGE" "CHANGE"

He can't win with only the Christian vote, so he is going after every religion of the diverse country we reside in.

Every campaign takes risks sometimes with reward.

He is the nominee and has the Clinton endorsement, I do not think that a few offended Christians will damage the democratic campaign, because with every Christian turned off may be two voters that think back to the fact that America was built on immigration and diversity, not religion.

KickFacer Media

http://a980.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/25/l_39bfe35453d43e037e28ad917966bceb.jpg

[ehall]

However, isn't polygamy only common in Mormon societies and "tribal" populations?
It's very common in Muslim culture. In fact it's more common at the top of society since one of the rules is that you can only have as many wives as you can afford to support.

If we are fill-in-the-blank nation like B. Hussein said then polygamy would be legal here. It's not, and we're not.

[5-90]

Obamas Campaign is all about "CHANGE" Well at least that’s what he is running with!.

Many people do not like president bush "CHANGE"

Health Insurance "CHANGE"

Out Source Manufacturing "CHANGE"

Retirement and Economic "CHANGE" "CHANGE" "CHANGE"

He can't win with only the Christian vote, so he is going after every religion of the diverse country we reside in.

Every campaign takes risks sometimes with reward.

He is the nominee and has the Clinton endorsement, I do not think that a few offended Christians will damage the democratic campaign, because with every Christian turned off may be two voters that think back to the fact that America was built on immigration and diversity, not religion.

KickFacer Media

[/IMG]



Change for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Change in the right direction in. Every time we've "changed" administrations, they've "changed" things that really only "change" the way we're getting screwed.

Now, if you don't mind my asking, who is you? I find it somehow interesting that your first post is political (or a political comment, at least) and that it comes accompanied by a logo...

(And you've gone to an awful lot of effort to make your text stand out as well...)

[TRNDRVR]

B. Hussein Give it the f*ck up. This card is getting old already!!! !!!1

[blondejoncherokee]

america was founded by those flleing religious persecution. if we where to say we are not accepting of all religions we would be creating a terrible hypocracy. he is just stating the obvious.

[crazyjim]

I can't believe people on this board are voting for barack obama... It just blows me away.

[Ray H]

Well the country is certainly built on Christian standards. Just look at monogamy, for example. If we were truly neutral about it we'd have polygamy 200 years ago.



I challenge you to find anything in the constitution that says anything about polygamy.
http://www.constitution.org/usconsti.htm
The U.S. constitution has nothing at all to do with marriage. Our federal courts have never said "no polygamists". Its the state constitutions that regulate who gets married in their state.
No doubt the people who wrote the constitution based it upon their christian or christianish morals but they also made it clear that religious beliefs were to remain out of the business of governing. (you remember the whole church and state thing). They could'nt have written anything less christian than that.

[WB9YZU]

Thoughts on the Original post, and some of it's responses:
I think that if one reposts someone else's email to you, they should make it perfectly clear what the question is, and what the quote is.

The posting was poorly written. The question was in the title, and the entire quote (and nothing else) was the message. That made it appear that the message was from the original poster.

To quote someone here, and to make it abundantly clear that it is actually a quote, use the tags to quote "<quote>" and "</quote>" before and after the text to be quoted. Otherwise it is easy to read the message as though they are your own thoughts.

Include in the message the reason for your question, like "I received this via email, is this an accurate quote?". That will emphasize that you are not the one whose ideas you are presenting.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That aside, I agree with a number of posters on a few points.
The Salem witch trials were before 1776.
The Founding Fathers were by and large men of their times in that they believed in equality for Men, not Property( which Slaves were) or Women.
By 1776, the general religious outlook of the settlers was Christian, in that they believed in one God and the teachings of the Holy Bible, but that each religion was different in it's exact belief. To that extent, we were a "Christian Nation".

I believe that one has to put the very much abused "Freedom of Religion" and "Separation of Church and State" in the context of the times. One example, and the one which directly applies to the colonies, was the Church Of England. This was much more than just a religion, it was the religion in England. The King of England was also the Head of the Church Of England. So, you were either a member of the Church of England, or you were an enemy of the King, and thus an enemy of the State. England was not alone in this practice.

The idea of "Freedom of Religion" was so that you were able to follow your own Religious beliefs without fear of governmental interference (Example: The Spanish Inquisition was the King of Spain's attempt to stamp out Muslim and Jewish influences in Spain by making everyone convert to Roman Catholicism.).

The idea of "Separation of Church and State" was simply to separate the functions of Church, and that of the State due to the abuse of power by the King which affected both Church and State.

Neither idea was intended to be used as a club to repress people you don't agree with the way they are today, but to separate the State from the Church and to allow more freedom to practice whatever religion you wanted as long as it was not harmful to society.

[Goatman]

Now, if all the religious wack jobs/rock bottom hitting born again's would believe what you've written in your above quote, I wouldn't be such a DICK!!! (or maybe not)

So, what about us Christ believing but not wack job religious and not bottom hitting yet born again Christians?

Are we OK? :)




I always wonder why some are compelled to insult as soon as a religious topic comes up. And the insults can go both ways.

I strongly believe in the Christ of Christianity, and I strongly believe that this country was partially founded on moral principles that were derived from Chritianity, and I strongly believe that our country has always intended to protect anyone's religious freedom. While I would like to think that this is a Christian nation, it certainly is not. Because of the shear volume of church goers in the past, that argument could have been made, but as some have said we are really a free country, free to believe or not to believe in whatever we choose. Of course, I also strongly believe that taxes, attorneys, career politicians, and radical environmentalists are gradually removing our freedoms.

From my own personal perspective, I think Obama's comment is unfortunate, but it certainly is true and I would not take issue with it. Now, that doesn't go for some comments that I've heard his wife has made. They are certainly VERY liberal when it comes to positions on American pride and patriotism......from the impressions I've come to.

[DrMoab]

I always wonder why some are compelled to insult as soon as a religious topic comes up.

100% total insecurity.

Pretty much the same reason so many born againers preach like they do.

Two types of people who are so much alike they can't stand each other.

[GSequoia]

I've always phrased it as we're not a Christian nation but a nation of (mostly) Christians, is that changing? Perhaps, don't know, I don't run the numbers.

And this is coming from heathen scum! :D

[Ray H]

So, what about us Christ believing but not wack job religious and not bottom hitting yet born again Christians?

Are we OK? :)




I always wonder why some are compelled to insult as soon as a religious topic comes up. And the insults can go both ways.

I strongly believe in the Christ of Christianity, and I strongly believe that this country was partially founded on moral principles that were derived from Chritianity, and I strongly believe that our country has always intended to protect anyone's religious freedom. While I would like to think that this is a Christian nation, it certainly is not. Because of the shear volume of church goers in the past, that argument could have been made, but as some have said we are really a free country, free to believe or not to believe in whatever we choose. Of course, I also strongly believe that taxes, attorneys, career politicians, and radical environmentalists are gradually removing our freedoms.

From my own personal perspective, I think Obama's comment is unfortunate, but it certainly is true and I would not take issue with it. Now, that doesn't go for some comments that I've heard his wife has made. They are certainly VERY liberal when it comes to positions on American pride and patriotism......from the impressions I've come to.

EVERYONE, pay close attention.
I am not religious, I do not believe in christ.

Goatman, very nice and respectful post. I agree with you 100%, carry on.

EVERYONE, see how easy it is to get along? Two people, completely opposed in their religious beliefs discussing something respectfully and without walking on each others faith, or lack of.

[DrMoab]

EVERYONE, see how easy it is to get along? Two people, completely opposed in their religious beliefs discussing something respectfully and without walking on each others faith, or lack of.
Thats because you and Goatman are both secure in your beliefs and don't give a rats ass what someone else believes in. Some here should take some lessons. :D

[WB9YZU]

EVERYONE, pay close attention.
I am not religious, I do not believe in christ.
.

Is believing in Christ the litmus test for being religious?

[Ray H]

Is believing in Christ the litmus test for being religious?

No, thats why I seperated them. "Im not religious, in addition, I dont believe in christ." Two seperate things.

[Ray H]

Thats because you and Goatman are both secure in your beliefs and don't give a rats ass what someone else believes in. Some here should take some lessons. :D

Its very true. I really couldnt care what other believe. Faith is a private ordeal. Two people can sit right beside each other, in the same church for years and years and their beliefs wont be exactly the same (cough, cough, Obama);). No two atheists will believe exactly the same. It would be a lonely world if you picked your friends by their religious beliefs.

[ehall]

I challenge you to find anything in the constitution that says anything about polygamy.
Well that's a strange response, given that I did not say otherwise.

Besides, the US federal constitution is not the whole of our legal system.

[Ray H]

Well that's a strange response, given that I did not say otherwise.

Besides, the US federal constitution is not the whole of our legal system.

Im sorry. I thought when you said
"If we are fill-in-the-blank nation like B. Hussein said then polygamy would be legal here. It's not, and we're not" you meant that polygamy was illegal in this country.
And when you said" Just look at monogamy, for example. If we were truly neutral about it we'd have polygamy 200 years ago." you were referring to the constitution not being "neutral", which was coicidentally written about 200 years ago.

My mistake I guess.

[WB9YZU]

No, thats why I seperated them. "Im not religious, in addition, I dont believe in christ." Two seperate things.

You say you are not religious, and that you don't believe in Christ.
Some may say the later is a "Duh!" statement based on the first, but one can not make that distinction nowdays ;)

Religion takes all forms, even being an Athiest is a religion in and of itself because in order to say you do not believe something exists is to acknowledge the possibility of it's existance and in the next breath to deny it.

So, what do you believe in?

[Ray H]

You say you are not religious, and that you don't believe in Christ.
Some may say the later is a "Duh!" statement based on the first, but one can not make that distinction nowdays ;)

Religion takes all forms, even being an Athiest is a religion in and of itself because in order to say you do not believe something exists is to acknowledge the possibility of it's existance and in the next breath to deny it.

So, what do you believe in?

You're right, I guess I couldve just stopped by saying Im not religious, and left it there. For some reason I felt I should go on and mention christ since he seems to be a predominant figure in this thread.
Do you really want to know what my beliefs are?

[Goatman]

You're right, I guess I couldve just stopped by saying Im not religious, and left it there. For some reason I felt I should go on and mention christ since he seems to be a predominant figure in this thread.
Do you really want to know what my beliefs are?

Actually, I thought you're statement "I'm not religious, and I don't believe in Christ", was very appropriate and clearly understood. I am not religious, however I do believe in Christ. Like you, I see the two as being totally independant of each other.

To me, tolerance is a very Christ like action and character trait, and I value it very highly. Unfortunately, if you study much religion, of all types, tolerance can too often be found not valued or practiced.

Really, the term "religion, or religious" is difficult to use, as it has so many meanings. It's hard to know what a person really means by using it.

[WB9YZU]

Ray, Not if you don't want to share. I am curious.

I don't believe in a "God" per se, but, I am positive that life on this planet was not an accident. I believe that Jesus was, and that he was a man and a prophet, but not son of any God. I believe that many events in the Bible happend, but perhaps not the way they were depicted exactly. I believe that the moral teachings in the Bible are useful to society and we should continue to uphold them.

Am I religious per se? No, but I am not without belief either :D

[WB9YZU]

Really, the term "religion, or religious" is difficult to use, as it has so many meanings. It's hard to know what a person really means by using it.

Very true.
"Not religious" could mean that you believe, but don't go to Church. Or it could mean you believe yourself to be an Athiest. People use it different ways.

One needs to set asside the whole Judeo-Christain concept and paint with a larger brush to understand that religions are not just based on those values, but a deep belief in something external to ones own being.

[Ray H]

Ray, Not if you don't want to share. I am curious.

I don't believe in a "God" per se, but, I am positive that life on this planet was not an accident. I believe that Jesus was, and that he was a man and a prophet, but not son of any God. I believe that many events in the Bible happend, but perhaps not the way there were depicted exactly. I believe that the moral teachings in the Bible are useful to society and we should continue to uphold them.

Am I religious per se? No, but I am not without believe either :D

I dont believe in a supreme being. I dont believe we have soles. I think we are just animals just like the rest of them. I believe the bible is a book of stories that are based on actual events but have been embellished to incorporate a god to explain the unexplainable. I believe the earth is hundreds of thousands of years old but Im not sure of our (human) origins. I believe the universe is billions of years old but I dont know how it all started. I would give anything to know what the very first "thing" that existed was. Something can not be made from nothing. This is something I have yet to get a good answer from anyone who believes in a god. Ok, so god made the earth and everything else, but who made god????? Did he just appear from nothing, because thats impossible. There had to have been a creator for god and then a creator for the creator of god and so on. I guess thats the thing I have in common with those of faith. Neither of us truely know what started everything. Maybe god was created from a random space dust cloud that formed into a being. If thats the case, then god really isnt so much a god but more of just a more advanced being than we are. Thats assuming nothing can be made into something, which it cant.
I believe we are one species of thousands on one of a billion planets. If there was once a "god" who created everything, I dont think he gives a rats ass what one little insignificant species on one tiny planet is doing. What happens when people are gone, extinct? (and some day they will be) Will god make more?

[Goatman]

I dont believe in a supreme being. I dont believe we have soles. I think we are just animals just like the rest of them. I believe the bible is a book of stories that are based on actual events but have been embellished to incorporate a god to explain the unexplainable. I believe the earth is hundreds of thousands of years old but Im not sure of our (human) origins. I believe the universe is billions of years old but I dont know how it all started. I would give anything to know what the very first "thing" that existed was. Something can not be made from nothing. This is something I have yet to get a good answer from anyone who believes in a god. Ok, so god made the earth and everything else, but who made god????? Did he just appear from nothing, because thats impossible. There had to have been a creator for god and then a creator for the creator of god and so on. I guess thats the thing I have in common with those of faith. Neither of us truely know what started everything. Maybe god was created from a random space dust cloud that formed into a being. If thats the case, then god really isnt so much a god but more of just a more advanced being than we are. Thats assuming nothing can be made into something, which it cant.

Pretty good question. I don't know the answer to it. However, there is something that I feel is important. I see, and accept, that many, if not most, truths exist in a paradox. It's like looking at a coin, or other two sided objects. You can only see what's on one side at a time, yet the coin itself is definitely both sides. Many truths can be the same way, with seemingly opposite sides that are really part of the same thing, yet it's virtually impossible to see. It can only be accepted after viewing both sides. Too many times people viewing the individual sides argue their perspective, while the truth of the matter is missed...........or not accepted.

Does there HAVE to be something before the creator? If there really is a creator, how well could we understand him (or whoever)? How well do we understand the physical principals of our universe? We've learned a lot, come a long way, yet there are theories and principles that we have no understanding of.......and yet use.

Regarding the universe, or our world, when you look at the vast number of intricate elements of design that are present, especially in living things, I find it harder to believe it came to be without a creator/designer than to believe that it did. To me, accepting a creator is very logical. It is also logical to accept that by the very nature of it there would be a tremendous lack of ability on my part to understand a creator, or how or why things came to exist. I can think of a child and how little they initially understand about the world around them. Or how about an embryo in an egg of some animal trying to understand it's situation relative to the world outside and the universe beyond that. If there really is a creator who did have the ability to design and create all of this, we are a far cry from having the ability to understand much.

Hey, once in awhile it's fun to ponder this stuff.

[GSequoia]

Pretty good question. I don't know the answer to it. However, there is something that I feel is important. I see, and accept, that many, if not most, truths exist in a paradox. It's like looking at a coin, or other two sided objects. You can only see what's on one side at a time, yet the coin itself is definitely both sides. Many truths can be the same way, with seemingly opposite sides that are really part of the same thing, yet it's virtually impossible to see. It can only be accepted after viewing both sides. Too many times people viewing the individual sides argue their perspective, while the truth of the matter is missed...........or not accepted.

Does there HAVE to be something before the creator? If there really is a creator, how well could we understand him (or whoever)? How well do we understand the physical principals of our universe? We've learned a lot, come a long way, yet there are theories and principles that we have no understanding of.......and yet use.

Regarding the universe, or our world, when you look at the vast number of intricate elements of design that are present, especially in living things, I find it harder to believe it came to be without a creator/designer than to believe that it did. To me, accepting a creator is very logical. It is also logical to accept that by the very nature of it there would be a tremendous lack of ability on my part to understand a creator, or how or why things came to exist. I can think of a child and how little they initially understand about the world around them. Or how about an embryo in an egg of some animal trying to understand it's situation relative to the world outside and the universe beyond that. If there really is a creator who did have the ability to design and create all of this, we are a far cry from having the ability to understand much.

Hey, once in awhile it's fun to ponder this stuff.

Richard...


...Are you stoned?


:greensmok


:D

[Goatman]

Richard...


...Are you stoned?


:greensmok


:D


:laugh:


That's funny! :D


So, you didn't know that I think about this stuff? :)

[Ray H]

Pretty good question. I don't know the answer to it. However, there is something that I feel is important. I see, and accept, that many, if not most, truths exist in a paradox. It's like looking at a coin, or other two sided objects. You can only see what's on one side at a time, yet the coin itself is definitely both sides. Many truths can be the same way, with seemingly opposite sides that are really part of the same thing, yet it's virtually impossible to see. It can only be accepted after viewing both sides. Too many times people viewing the individual sides argue their perspective, while the truth of the matter is missed...........or not accepted.

Does there HAVE to be something before the creator? If there really is a creator, how well could we understand him (or whoever)? How well do we understand the physical principals of our universe? We've learned a lot, come a long way, yet there are theories and principles that we have no understanding of.......and yet use.

Regarding the universe, or our world, when you look at the vast number of intricate elements of design that are present, especially in living things, I find it harder to believe it came to be without a creator/designer than to believe that it did. To me, accepting a creator is very logical. It is also logical to accept that by the very nature of it there would be a tremendous lack of ability on my part to understand a creator, or how or why things came to exist. I can think of a child and how little they initially understand about the world around them. Or how about an embryo in an egg of some animal trying to understand it's situation relative to the world outside and the universe beyond that. If there really is a creator who did have the ability to design and create all of this, we are a far cry from having the ability to understand much.

Hey, once in awhile it's fun to ponder this stuff.

Its true, we are all trapped by our lack of knowledge.
I added a sentence to my last post since you quoted me. Basically Im willing to accept that the universe and existance itself is due to a creator because in honesty, the very beginning of something (the universe) is the part of my beliefs that I have no explanation for. Where I lose faith is thinking that we (humans) are more than just a very small insignificant spec in the universe. I guess to put it simply, I believe in the possibility of a being creating a particle floating in space that has now become our universe as we know it. I dont think this creator has micromanaged the creation of this planet or this species. I dont believe he watches over us or directs us or has effected the development of this planet or any other planet.

[Ray H]

How could anyone NOT think about this stuff, its eternity we are talking about.

[cracked-butt]

I think we are just animals just like the rest of them. I believe the bible is a book of stories that are based on actual events but have been embellished to incorporate a god to explain the unexplainable.

This is something I have yet to get a good answer from anyone who believes in a god. Ok, so god made the earth and everything else, but who made god????? Did he just appear from nothing, because thats impossible. There had to have been a creator for god and then a creator for the creator of god and so on.

I guess thats the thing I have in common with those of faith. Neither of us truely know what started everything.

If there was once a "god" who created everything, I dont think he gives a rats ass what one little insignificant species on one tiny planet is doing.


have to agree with you on that one. we are just like every other animal on earth... sometimes better, most often worse.

answer 1; the GODDESS made "god" (just do a little research of paganism & you'll see);)

answer 2; not any more if he (she) ever did. (as to first & last part of the quote).

and back onto the original topic, (sorta) i believe that the church & state (government) SHOULD BE seperated , as they are now. (at least how they portray it any how)

[WB9YZU]

How could anyone NOT think about this stuff, its eternity we are talking about.

And the older you get, the more you tend to ponder it.

All of us who have past "mid-age" have struggled with the questions that have haunted men's souls since the dawn of time.

* How did we get here? Were we created, or are we a cosmic accident?

* Is this all that there is? Are we just here to reproduce and die, or is there a higher purpose?

* What happens when we die?

We attempt to answer the un-answerable.

[red91]

As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation. To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--and to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that. How far this nation has come from what our founding fathers intended it to be.

I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your concerns, written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your email list. With God's help, and He is still in control of this nation and all else, we can show this man and the world in November that we are, indeed, still a Christian nation!



UH OH...You know those JEWISH people are just a bunch of subverts anyhow...

;)

I actually like Buddhists to be honest... whats wrong with that ?

Oh wait...most of them are pacifists...smell a revolution on the way?

[red91]

I I dont believe we have soles.

No but my shoes do. :D

[SeansBlueXJ]

I can't believe people on this board are voting for barack obama... It just blows me away.

Why? Is it so hard to belive that a group of people brought together by a common intrest (xj's) can have diffrent views and come from diffrent backgrounds.

While I have noticed that this board tends to have the majority of the members being Republican, last I checked it wasnt a requirement to owning an xj, or wanting to belong to a community of XJ owners.

And before you flame me as an Oboma supporter, I havent decided how I will vote, and while I am not registered as such technically I think like a Libertarian more then anything else and they arent really closer to either party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States) :patriot:

[DrMoab]

Three reasons I will not vote for him

1. I like guns.

2. I like open access to the back country.

3. I like keeping at least half my income.

[SBrad001]

Three reasons I will not vote for him

1. I like guns.

2. I like open access to the back country.

3. I like keeping at least half my income.

Three very good reasons, and that's why I'm writing in Hillary.

[DrMoab]

Three very good reasons, and that's why I'm writing in Hillary.
Uh, Nevermind you can't be serious. I guess if you are OK with only keeping 49% of your income but still losing your guns and freedom to explore where you want.

[Darky]

So, what about us Christ believing but not wack job religious and not bottom hitting yet born again Christians?

Are we OK? :)




I always wonder why some are compelled to insult as soon as a religious topic comes up. And the insults can go both ways.

I strongly believe in the Christ of Christianity, and I strongly believe that this country was partially founded on moral principles that were derived from Chritianity, and I strongly believe that our country has always intended to protect anyone's religious freedom. While I would like to think that this is a Christian nation, it certainly is not. Because of the shear volume of church goers in the past, that argument could have been made, but as some have said we are really a free country, free to believe or not to believe in whatever we choose. Of course, I also strongly believe that taxes, attorneys, career politicians, and radical environmentalists are gradually removing our freedoms.

From my own personal perspective, I think Obama's comment is unfortunate, but it certainly is true and I would not take issue with it. Now, that doesn't go for some comments that I've heard his wife has made. They are certainly VERY liberal when it comes to positions on American pride and patriotism......from the impressions I've come to.
He's a smart man. I've often said the same, why is it that if religion is mentioned certain people immediately jump on the Christians are jerks mode while others jump on the damn atheists mode...
Also, much as I think it would be cool to have a Christian nation, I also recognize that this country was founded based on mostly Christian or Deist (belief in God however you want to call it) ideals but was also founded so that the government would have no business telling you what to believe.

[SBrad001]

Uh, Nevermind you can't be serious. I guess if you are OK with only keeping 49% of your income but still losing your guns and freedom to explore where you want.

Yeah, it was a joke. :D

I bet dollar to donut if Hillary is his VP, he'll be dead with a year. . . .

[SBrad001]

He's a smart man. I've often said the same, why is it that if religion is mentioned certain people immediately jump on the Christians are jerks mode while others jump on the damn atheists mode....


Aw, come on. I've been very well behaved. :D


All joking aside, this discussion is a generally positive one. It doesn't seem like anyone is trying to force anything down anyone's throat, if you know what I mean.

[xj-grin]

He's a smart man. I've often said the same, why is it that if religion is mentioned certain people immediately jump on the Christians are jerks mode while others jump on the damn atheists mode...
Also, much as I think it would be cool to have a Christian nation, I also recognize that this country was founded based on mostly Christian or Deist (belief in God however you want to call it) ideals but was also founded so that the government would have no business telling you what to believe.

my point exactly. All in all, this has to be one of the least hostile online religious discussions I have seen (with a couple exceptions including the OP). NAXJA Rocks!:patriot: :angel: :firedevil

[anodyne33]

I can't believe people on this board are voting for barack obama... It just blows me away.


I can't believe that 99% of the arguments I've heard against him are so utterly ludicrous.

He's black... his middle name is Hussein... his grandfather was Muslim...


C'mon people.

[GSequoia]

* How did we get here? Were we created, or are we a cosmic accident?

* Is this all that there is? Are we just here to reproduce and die, or is there a higher purpose?

* What happens when we die?

We attempt to answer the un-answerable.

[Deep Voice]And you can find the answers in Dianetics.[/Deep Voice]

[GSequoia]

I bet dollar to donut if Hillary is his VP, he'll be dead with a year. . . .

You really think Hillary Duff would do that?

[Ray H]

I can't believe that 99% of the arguments I've heard against him are so utterly ludicrous.

He's black... his middle name is Hussein... his grandfather was Muslim...


C'mon people.

I dont think youve heard those arguements on here, at least not 99% of the time.
I think most people here have valid reasons they dont like him and they have stated them.
I dont personally like him because I dont agree with many of his views but also because I dont trust him. That has nothing to do with his color, name or ancestory. I simply dont trust him when he speaks. If I knew nothing else about him he would still sound like a very polished and well dressed used car salesman to me.

On the other hand, as much as I would love to have full confidence in McCain, Im just not sure about that anymore either. Every day he seems to be getting worn out and less sure of himself. Im sure the campaign trail is wearing on him but so will the presidency. While I respect what he has been through and what he has done for this country, Im doubting he has what it takes to lead it right now, but, at least I feel I can trust him so thats a big plus in my book.
I just hope whichever one of them ends up in the whitehouse, they have a really good VP.

[SeansBlueXJ]

I can't believe that 99% of the arguments I've heard against him are so utterly ludicrous.

He's black... his middle name is Hussein... his grandfather was Muslim...


C'mon people.

x2, but that's the same set that write the email in the OP (now that we know the OP is was a quote and not the poster's views necessairly)

of course I agree with some of the things Obama says, particualrly on his forigen policy and economy, but then many things he holds scare me too, as per Dr Moab's 3 points. Guns (he wants a ban that would at least double the Clinton era ban and include all semi-automatic weapons), open country, and income taxing.

[Darky]

This is something I have yet to get a good answer from anyone who believes in a god. Ok, so god made the earth and everything else, but who made god????? Did he just appear from nothing, because thats impossible.
The answer to your question from a Christian standpoint is that God always was. There was no beginning for Him. I believe its one of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) that starts with the verse, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I know its meaningless to those who don't believe in the Bible, but that's basically the explanation from a Biblical standpoint.

[Darky]

Aw, come on. I've been very well behaved. :D


All joking aside, this discussion is a generally positive one. It doesn't seem like anyone is trying to force anything down anyone's throat, if you know what I mean.
Exactly, nothing directed at you, I was just thinking of past debates where its devolved into name-calling...:)

[Beej]

http://www.w3bdevil.com/forums/Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg

[Ray H]

The answer to your question from a Christian standpoint is that God always was. There was no beginning for Him. I believe its one of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) that starts with the verse, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I know its meaningless to those who don't believe in the Bible, but that's basically the explanation from a Biblical standpoint.

I know that passage but it doesnt make sense to me. "in the beginning" would suggest that there is a beginning, yet to say he "always was" would suggest there is no beginning.
The wall that I have to overcome is my belief that everything has a beginning and an end. Theology or science hasnt answered this for me. Its really the only question I need answered and the rest of my beliefs will fall in line.

[red91]

Pass the BONG please...

[Darky]

http://www.w3bdevil.com/forums/Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/darkXJ/threadlikewheregoing753cz2.jpg

[Otter]

agreed Mr. xj-grin, not often you see people debate this topic peacefully and coherently.

seeing our forum here as a cross section of society, i think this discussion shows most people on either side of the "god debate" aren't interested in forcing their views on anyone...we mostly, simply just want to live and let live while trying to squelch the extremists on both sides that try to impenge on everyone's freedom to choose/express in this area.

i'd like to hear opinions on what i see as an exploitation of a "gray area" where the constitution does not have a clear say...the exploitation being Bush's Faith Based Initiative. i take offense that my tax dollars are now being diverted, in a deliberately skewed manner, to favor religious community organizations. in addition, the likely end result of this inculdes the eventual extinction of some secular community charities as they can no longer equally compete for these tax dollars. it smells like a hostile take-over, but more importantly looks like government interferrence in our society's freedom to choose as congress, speaking for the general population at large, refused to pass this initiative.

maybe i'm just an angry agnostic, idk. this is not a Bush bash, i respect the man. what say you all?

[DrMoab]

I bet dollar to donut if Hillary is his VP, he'll be dead with a year. . . .
Well, even though I don't like him, I would hate to see that happen.

Won't totally surprize me if someone tries anyway.

[bluejeepkid]

ummmm actually our forefathers may have based our nation on christianity, they acually fought so people can beleive what they want about religion. true this country main religious beleifs greatly consist of christianity, however our forefathers didnt want this great nation to be controlled by religion of any kind........hence the seperation of church and state.......our forefathers felt that to correctly build up a nation, it needed to be done in an unbiased way

[Bent]

I dont believe we have soles.
ray, look at the bottom of your foot.

[Ray H]

ray, look at the bottom of your foot.

Dang, Ive two of them.

[98XJSport]

Lets try this one on.

If you believe in God, you must believe in the Devil. Believe in Angels, and in Demons. You can't have one without the other.

So how can you have this ultimate good AND ultimate evil? Either someone created them to offset each other, or one created the other.

If both just "always existed" that means that there are more than just one omnipotent "god" and perhaps more than just the two at hand...

If God created the Devil, that means God is the source of all Evil in the world. Or if the Devil was accidently created, that means that god can fail...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g26/Rhutchinson123/inconceivable.jpg

[Darky]

God created us and gave us free will. Same goes for the angels. Satan was the angel of light, he became conceited, he wanted to have the glory and run Heaven. He led a third of the angels in rebellion against God. God banished them. That's the biblical perspective on where Satan came from. God's "failure", if you can call it that, was allowing us to have free will so we could make up our own minds as to worship Him or not, believe in Him or not. I looked at things and decided that I believe in Him. If you don't, that's fine.

[Darky]

Lets try this one on.

If you believe in God, you must believe in the Devil. Believe in Angels, and in Demons. You can't have one without the other.

So how can you have this ultimate good AND ultimate evil? Either someone created them to offset each other, or one created the other.

If both just "always existed" that means that there are more than just one omnipotent "god" and perhaps more than just the two at hand...

If God created the Devil, that means God is the source of all Evil in the world. Or if the Devil was accidently created, that means that god can fail...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g26/Rhutchinson123/inconceivable.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/darkXJ/atheism-1.jpg

[98XJSport]

God created us and gave us free will. Same goes for the angels. Satan was the angel of light, he became conceited, he wanted to have the glory and run Heaven. He led a third of the angels in rebellion against God. God banished them. That's the biblical perspective on where Satan came from. God's "failure", if you can call it that, was allowing us to have free will so we could make up our own minds as to worship Him or not, believe in Him or not. I looked at things and decided that I believe in Him. If you don't, that's fine.

But didn't he create angels to be perfect beings, with no free will?

And humanity being god's failure is another subject indeed :D

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g26/Rhutchinson123/chprophets930308.gif

[SBrad001]

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/darkXJ/atheism-1.jpg


You know what I'm posting next! :D

You know exactly what I'm posting next! :D

[XJEEPER]

Yeah. Ron White said it best - "You can't fix stupid."


However, isn't polygamy only common in Mormon societies and "tribal" populations? Not that I've any trouble with it, but we seem to have "evolved away" from it.

(I honestly don't have a problem with polygamy/andry/gyny - as long as everyone involved is happy and it works for them.)

The modern day practice of polygamy is too often associated with Mormon's by the press, but the truth is that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who is involved in the practice of polygamy is subject to excommunication. Doesn't get much more clear than that.

Lots of splinter groups that still practice their own version of this religion are, in my opinion, using the practice of polygamy for their own carnal and financial benefit and exploit their own offspring.

We are a nation of many different religions and have the right to worship or not, thanks to our founding fathers. I believe that there was a higher power inspiring those involved in the creation of this great nation and the drafting the Declaration of Independance and our Constitution/Bill of Rights.

[Darky]

You know what I'm posting next!

You know exactly what I'm posting next!
I don't know exactly, but I do have an idea...;)

[SBrad001]

Christianity

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.

[Darky]

Christianity

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.
Yeah but mine had cool box around it...:D

[gradon]

What Obama said is true--we are a nation made up of people of many different religions. There is no horror in this. There is horror in how our "Christian/searching for religious freedom" founding fathers/ancestors built(stole land and people) this country. Forgive me for tuning out when someone pulls the founding father card. The further away we get from them and even the racist thinking of the 20th century, the better. I was a Christian until I started thinking/questioning everything for myself in college. My family is Christian and I respect their beliefs--I just realize that if they had been born in the middle east, they'd be devout muslims. I can't support a religion that condemns people to eternity in hell for not believing in a person that lived 2000 years ago because he is the gatekeeper of heaven, or that you have to do such and such and such to get to heaven. I do, however, believe that Jesus was a prophet and that he was able to do many things that we would think impossible. He was in touch with his spiritual side. There were prophets before him and there will be prophets after him. We are all Sons and Daughters of the Creator--there was never only One. We are all pieces/thoughts/extensions of the Divine. I don't believe the Bible as fact--"Our God said that your land is ours and that we can kill you, and enslave you, and take it; God will forgive your sins if you buy this animal and sacrifice it--B.S. There are good lessons to be learned and good morals/guidelines to live by. I do believe in a Creator, and regardless if it took 6 days or 6 billion years it's still an awesome creation, but She doesn't want me to bow down to Her, She wants to experience life through me. I have a soul and believe that it'll live past this physical existence. For those that don't believe in that, don't fear death either, cause you won't be conscious of your unconsciousness. I understand that I would be just like you if I was brought up in the same circumstances and went through the same ish you did. I am You are Me. So the greatest commandment, as Jesus said: Love. All else will fall into place if you truly do.

[ocean_jet]

God created us and gave us free will.

If God gave us free will, then God cannot know the future.... he is not omniscient. For if he truly were omniscient, he would know our futures. And if our futures are known, we cannot have free will. Yet, most Christians I know state that we have free will, and god is omniscient. But logic tells us those two cannot both exist.


I was always curious about that one.

[DrMoab]

It is possible that he gave us free will but at the same time knows exactly what we are going to do at any given moment.

Maybe say for example...if you believe in miricles... You are driving down the road and fall asleep, God may know you are going to hit that tree so ahead of time he puts a pot hole in the road that causes you to blow a tire and veer into the lake...where you drown anyway. :D

He just didn't want your family to have a closed casket funeral.

[Darky]

My son has free will to do what I say or not to do what I say. I can see him doing something wrong and tell him to come here and know his response will be to cry because he knows he's going to get spanked. Small example, yes, but my knowledge of his next action didn't change the fact that he still freely chose to do it. The difference is a matter of knowing that we will do something vs pulling the strings to make us do that something.

[ocean_jet]

In my opinion, major religions, at their core, are based on positive morality and goodness.

It's when politics (the desire for power and control) gets mingled with religion that problems occur, and religions are hijacked for use in controlling the masses. That's when the evil inherant in some people over powers the goodness at the core of most religions.

http://www.sheldondrake.com/TRobbins_religion.html

[GSequoia]

It is possible that he gave us free will but at the same time knows exactly what we are going to do at any given moment.


Like Santa Claus!

[ocean_jet]

It is possible that he gave us free will but at the same time knows exactly what we are going to do at any given moment.

Maybe say for example...if you believe in miricles... You are driving down the road and fall asleep, God may know you are going to hit that tree so ahead of time he puts a pot hole in the road that causes you to blow a tire and veer into the lake...where you drown anyway. :D

He just didn't want your family to have a closed casket funeral.

Haha....

Interesting take!

[ocean_jet]

My son has free will to do what I say or not to do what I say. I can see him doing something wrong and tell him to come here and know his response will be to cry because he knows he's going to get spanked. Small example, yes, but my knowledge of his next action didn't change the fact that he still freely chose to do it. The difference is a matter of knowing that we will do something vs pulling the strings to make us do that something.


But your knowledge is not ABSOLUTE. While, there is a very strong liklehood that your son will react in a certain way... there is a chance that he won't. And someday, when he's older and less fearful, he will probably surprise you, and react differently.

Omniscient implies the knowledge of our actions is absolute. Doesn't it?

[Bent]

In my opinion, major religions, at their core, are based on positive morality and goodness.



Never heard of islam eh?

[SeansBlueXJ]

Never heard of islam eh?

That's not fair to 99% of muslims out there, it's only the extreemists who are curently representing them in the news that make it look bad.

[Bent]

That's not fair to 99% of muslims out there, it's only the extreemists who are curently representing them in the news that make it look bad.
It is fair AND it is accurate. My statement is based on the teaching of the koran.

[SeansBlueXJ]

It is fair AND it is accurate. My statement is based on the teaching of the koran.

Really? I'm sure quite a few here could show teachings of the Bible that would put Christianity in the same light.

And here is an well INFORMED Christian article about Islam.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/marchweb-only/21.0c.html

[Bent]

Really?
Really.

[SeansBlueXJ]

Really.

Ohhh that got me. :rattle: You win!!!


"The attitude of many Muslims toward Christianity and toward the West is colored by the history of conflict that has found expression in the Crusades of Medieval times, European domination and colonialism, as well as Western support for Zionism in most recent times. We must allow the love of God to overcome our own fear and defensiveness and to penetrate these barriers. "

Quoted from http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/islam.html

While I dont personally know any Muslims, I hate blanket statments against whole religons, espically illinformed ones. But eh I am wasting my time becuse God forbid a Christan learn tollerance for fellow man. Oh wait wasnt that Jesus's whole deal?

Doesnt matter as a Pagan i am going to hell any way :firedevil . Oh nevermind I dont belive in hell. Whew skirted that one.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs.htm

[Darky]

Really? I'm sure quite a few here could show teachings of the Bible that would put Christianity in the same light.

And here is an well INFORMED Christian article about Islam.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/marchweb-only/21.0c.html
Read from the New Testament, which by the way is the main text Christians use today, and see what you come away with. The Old Testament is still read and still provides wisdom and insight but the Law of the Old Testament doesn't apply any longer. Its use today is to bring to light our shortcomings and point out our need for God.

[Darky]

Ohhh that got me. :rattle: You win!!!


"The attitude of many Muslims toward Christianity and toward the West is colored by the history of conflict that has found expression in the Crusades of Medieval times, European domination and colonialism, as well as Western support for Zionism in most recent times. We must allow the love of God to overcome our own fear and defensiveness and to penetrate these barriers. "

Quoted from http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/islam.html

While I dont personally know any Muslims, I hate blanket statments against whole religons, espically illinformed ones. But eh I am wasting my time becuse God forbid a Christan learn tollerance for fellow man. Oh wait wasnt that Jesus's whole deal?

Doesnt matter as a Pagan i am going to hell any way :firedevil . Oh nevermind I dont belive in hell. Whew skirted that one.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs.htm
Tolerance is a part of Christianity. A big part. However, tolerance doesn't mean accepting. I tolerate my co-workers smoking in our warehouse around me although I don't accept it as right seeing as to how it's not allowed in any Federal building...I tolerate Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, etc but you'll not convince me those are the right way to go. I won't treat you any differently though. You have a different belief than I and that's fine.

For free-will vs omniscience, I stated in my post its a rather small example, but if you look at it I think it makes a point. Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean He's stopping you from doing it or forcing you to do it. I won't lie and say it all makes perfect sense to me but it makes more sense than anything else I've come across IMO. Here's how I've had it explained to me: God exists at all times at once. Ask Him where He is and He'll say, "I am"

:)

[red91]

I wish this thread, and Ted Kennedy would both die.

Maybe one could see the hand of God.

[SeansBlueXJ]

BlackSport96, I can agree with you. You at least show tollerance and have an open mind to other's belifs.

[FlexdXJ]

so if I am a jewish monk does that make me unamerican? :D whats wrong with you man. WAKE UP and smell the roses. Who cares if people are different religions than christian. I work with all sorts of people who are different religions. they are all American Citizens too. will someone nominate him for tard wars again

[Bent]

You at least show tollerance and have an open mind to other's belifs.
Open mind?

Extremists?




Koran 9:5 - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

Koran 8.12 - When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Koran 002.191 - And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Koran 004.089 - They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Koran 4.56 - (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Koran 9.29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 9.123 - O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366 - It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126 - Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women.

This war on behalf of Allah is to continue until the judgment day <kiyamat>. It will not come to an until <<Dajjal is killed>> (Abu Dawood, Kitab-ul Jihad, 4-Babuun fi Devami'l Jihad, hadis 2484, Vloume 3, page 4).

Koran 009.005 - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Finally, the motivation for suicide bombings:

Koran 009.111 - God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and SLAY AND ARE SLAIN: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.(Emphasis mine)
Koran 4.74 - Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.


Please interpret; I am just not seeing why people only want to believe that extremists are misconstruing this stuff. Before some politically correct, bury your head in the sand lefty squeals, when read in context, the message is the same; serious as a heart attack.


:read:

[SBrad001]

Yeah but mine had cool box around it...:D

Yeah, mine did too. But I don't feel comfortable disrespecting religious images, so I'll just give you the text version. :D

See! I can be sensitive. :D

[SBrad001]

Open mind?

Extremists?




Koran 9:5 - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

Koran 8.12 - When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Koran 002.191 - And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Koran 004.089 - They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Koran 4.56 - (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Koran 9.29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 9.123 - O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366 - It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126 - Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women.

This war on behalf of Allah is to continue until the judgment day <kiyamat>. It will not come to an until <<Dajjal is killed>> (Abu Dawood, Kitab-ul Jihad, 4-Babuun fi Devami'l Jihad, hadis 2484, Vloume 3, page 4).

Koran 009.005 - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Finally, the motivation for suicide bombings:

Koran 009.111 - God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and SLAY AND ARE SLAIN: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.(Emphasis mine)
Koran 4.74 - Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.


Please interpret; I am just not seeing why people only want to believe that extremists are misconstruing this stuff. Before some politically correct, bury your head in the sand lefty squeals, when read in context, the message is the same; serious as a heart attack.


:read:

I'm totally with Tim on the one. Islam and the Koran CAN be just as, if not more, scary than 'our' christian extremists interpretation of the Bible.

























. . . and I'm a lefty extremist according to some. :D

[TRNDRVR]

So, what about us Christ believing but not wack job religious and not bottom hitting yet born again Christians?Goatman, when's the last time you preached to me?
Never!
My comment was aimed at the weak minded, rock bottom hitting, born again religious wackjobs who preach to me that I'm an piece of shit because I haven't succumbed and believe the same as them.

I can guarantee you this, I have lived, and still live a more "moral" life than most of them can only imagine. All without god.

F*ck'em! I rest my case.

Are we OK? :)Richard, that's a loaded question! :D

[GSequoia]

Maybe one could see the hand of God.

Yes, I am a god, but this God doesn't act on request...


The thread hasn't gotten bad enough for action and I'd like to see it stay that way!

[red91]

Yes, I am a god, but this God doesn't act on request...


The thread hasn't gotten bad enough for action and I'd like to see it stay that way!

Take your high moral ground bullshit rhetoric and shove it up your ass!

how's that? :looser:

I didn't find Jesus in jail, he was behind the dumpster on 6th ave.

[SBrad001]

Take your high moral ground bullshit rhetoric and shove it up your ass!

how's that? :looser:

I didn't find Jesus in jail, he was behind the dumpster on 6th ave.


Spank him! Spank him! :D

jk.

[red91]

Spank him! Spank him! :D

jk.


I fear NO moderator.

Just ask'em.


:D :D :D :D


:lock:

[Kudzu]

I fear NO moderator.

Just ask'em.


:D :D :D :D


:lock:

YES You do....:shhh:

[Mudderoy]

Christianity

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.

Hey at least I'm not a Morman, that's just crazy! :eek: :laugh3:

[red91]

YES You do....:shhh:

ironic you'd be the only with with enough balls to put me on hold here. :D

[Mudderoy]

If God gave us free will, then God cannot know the future.... he is not omniscient. For if he truly were omniscient, he would know our futures. And if our futures are known, we cannot have free will. Yet, most Christians I know state that we have free will, and god is omniscient. But logic tells us those two cannot both exist.


I was always curious about that one.

Don't be silly, God can time travel.

[red91]

Don't be silly, God can time travel.

Time is linear, it doesn't really exist.

[Root Moose]

All of NATO is a white christian gun club

I don't care who you are, that some funny and accurate stuff right there.

Jesus and Buddha were two dudes with a great message. I think they could have been the same person in a way. The span of several hundred years and different locales or cultures could explain the differences and presentation.

Then some "religious" zealots took their (his?) messages and perverted them for their own "financial" gain. Take a dose of mysticism and it freaks out those with little eduction or opportunity to really dwell on things.

That's my take. I guess I'm a Buddhist-Christian that doesn't believe in a creator. I know how much you guys love hyphenated people. LOL

Speaking of being mystical, ever notice that the entire universe seems to be composed of energy/matter that is fluxing in a state of something rotating around another thing? Electrons around a nucleus, planets around a star, solar systems around a galaxy, etc.

Maybe some dudes on an electron are having a debate about a creator, we debate a creator next level out, what we would recognize as "God" is debating about the next great macro level out. Our world is shells within shells of repetition. Fractal in a way.

I want to see quantum level dinosaurs, damn it!

[Hammered]

Just to throw another wrench in the gears.

Vikings practiced "paganism" before there was "Christianity". Vikings Visited North america LONG before Columbus. ...But Theres no VIKING DAY.















No matter who you vote for, they wont be as good as RON PAUL.

[Ray H]

Just to throw another wrench in the gears.

Vikings practiced "paganism" before there was "Christianity". Vikings Visited North america LONG before Columbus. ...But Theres no VIKING DAY.


You said it. Vikings "visited". They didnt stay. They were nomatic and they traveled in small groups with zero to few females. Their chances of building a society were slim to none. Lots of people visited here but didnt stay.
The religions of the people who win wars and have land are the religions that are strongest.

[Ray H]

I have another question for the christian types.
As far as your beliefs go, how do you justify being in the military? This isnt directed at anyone in particular here. Ive been curious of this ever since I was in the military. I know when I went in, I made a conscience decision that could kill if asked to without questioning the reasons. How can a christian make that decision knowing they would be going against their beliefs?

[scottmcneal]

Yeah, it was a joke. :D

I bet dollar to donut if Hillary is his VP, he'll be dead with a year. . . .


I'll give him 3 months if that..

Sorry to get you guys all worked up.. I won't do it again ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :peace:

[red91]

You said it. Vikings "visited". They didnt stay. They were nomatic and they traveled in small groups with zero to few females. Their chances of building a society were slim to none. Lots of people visited here but didnt stay.
The religions of the people who win wars and have land are the religions that are strongest.

WTF is "nomatic" ?

an "automatic" no ?

:D

[JNickel101]

Now, if all the religious wack jobs/rock bottom hitting born again's would believe what you've written in your above quote, I wouldn't be such a DICK!!! (or maybe not)

Dammit....I can't believe I'm agreeing with you....

:D

[TRNDRVR]

Dammit....I can't believe I'm agreeing with you....

:DWhat? All this time you thought I wasn't a DICK? :twak:

[Darky]

I have another question for the christian types.
As far as your beliefs go, how do you justify being in the military? This isnt directed at anyone in particular here. Ive been curious of this ever since I was in the military. I know when I went in, I made a conscience decision that could kill if asked to without questioning the reasons. How can a christian make that decision knowing they would be going against their beliefs?
The 10 Commandments say thou shalt not murder. Murder and killing are two different acts. Ask Evan Vela and SSgt Michael Hensley about the difference. They were just tried for murder in the killing of an Iraqi. Hensley was acquitted, Vela was convicted.
All throughout the Old Testament the Israelites fought and killed their enemies. IMO its a matter of intent. If you are out to kill someone out of ("non-righteous")anger or hatred, etc that makes it murder. If its because you are negligent (unsafe with firearms, driving drunk etc) its murder/manslaughter. If you're country is at war and you are facing the enemy or if you kill in self defense, there's nothing wrong there.
Mind you, that's all just my personal opinion. :)

[BIgDaddyChia]

A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama and More trail closings.

[SBrad001]

A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama and More trail closings.


What the fark ever. Trail closures, sure but, "A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama." Fricking lame.

President Bush has been Osama's best friend as US politicians go. Osama couldn't be safer hanging out in his Pakistani cave over there with this Dipshit of President sending troops to Iraq instead of Afghanistan.

Seriously, knock that ignorant crap out.

[scottmcneal]

What the fark ever. Trail closures, sure but, "A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama." Fricking lame.

President Bush has been Osama's best friend as US politicians go. Osama couldn't be safer hanging out in his Pakistani cave over there with this Dipshit of President sending troops to Iraq instead of Afghanistan.

Seriously, knock that ignorant crap out.


Say this to yourself sir, Who was in office the first time they did the trade center? Your friend, the draft dodger.. Now what? :cheers:

[Darky]

What the fark ever. Trail closures, sure but, "A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama." Fricking lame.

President Bush has been Osama's best friend as US politicians go. Osama couldn't be safer hanging out in his Pakistani cave over there with this Dipshit of President sending troops to Iraq instead of Afghanistan.

Seriously, knock that ignorant crap out.
I agree that going to Iraq really didn't have a huge amount to do with finding Bin Laden, but I still think it was a good move to get rid of Saddam. Just I would've finished in Afghanistan first...

[SBrad001]

Say this to yourself sir, Who was in office the first time they did the trade center? Your friend, the draft dodger.. Now what? :cheers:


God, you guys can be so thick sometimes. Just because I think Bush is the biggest mistake this country has ever made does not mean I supported Clinton.


I am allowed to dislike Bush, because he's an idiot and a complete mess up as a President.

[SBrad001]

I agree that going to Iraq really didn't have a huge amount to do with finding Bin Laden, but I still think it was a good move to get rid of Saddam. Just I would've finished in Afghanistan first...

Exactly!

[BIgDaddyChia]

God, you guys can be so thick sometimes. Just because I think Bush is the biggest mistake this country has ever made does not mean I supported Clinton.


I am allowed to dislike Bush, because he's an idiot and a complete mess up as a President.

Actually Jimmy Carter was the biggest mistake ever.

[Wallymander]

As far as this nation having being founded on "Christian" fundamentals, it was absolutely necessary at the time. You see the world has a history, of religious conflicts being the route to nation building and domination. Mainly its Islam and Christianity in a basic form. This current war we are in is just that, islam trying to knock everyone else out, its nothing new, and existed far before the USA existed. It is no religion of peace, just take a look at whats in the quran. Its a bloody, vengeful, mean spirited, means of controlling people and nations. there has been a battle against it for centuries now and that is exactly what is going on in the middle east right now. We are fighting Islam and the death it creates.

It cant be said, because it would be a "religious war" and thats just not doable.Our founding fathers knew it back then, and therefor they made sure there was a strong "godly" tie to the nation. Its needed.
So the "blood for oil" and all that is being stated. Because people just have no clue that this started a looooooooooong time ago.

By the way, Islam is growing in our country by leaps and bounds, and
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html
Look here as to why its a bad idea. We don't have to be a "Christian nation" But we better damn sure stick to "Christian values" Or some other less forgiving set of values WILL, WILL take the place of them. I guarantee

[DrMoab]

Actually Jimmy Carter was the biggest mistake ever.
LOL X2!

And the scarry thing is Obama is just like him...only darker and with bigger ears. Oh and a better speaker. But other then that, they are just alike.

[gradon]

Occupying a foreign nation and killing people for whatever bs reason is still murder. Thou shalt not kill. How do you think we would feel and act if some foreign nation came in and controlled our daily actions, our electricity, our water, our business, and claimed they were giving us freedom? Your best friends were locked up in jail for months/years on end w/out justification just because they were males ages 15-50 accused of being terrorists? We have no business in Iraq, and no business in Afghanistan, especially if 15 out of 21 of the alleged 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Nothing America has or will do to "help" Iraq will make up for the damage done to millions of Iraqis over the past 15-20 years or the damage that has been done to America for wasting billions(edit: will be at least a few trillion the way they're dragging it on and looking for other countries to move on to while they're already over there) over there instead of helping over here. I apologize now to yall and to the future generations that will look back on us and wonder why we sat back and let this ish happen and not stand up for the rights of all our fellow human beings. I am ashamed of the actions that the "leaders" of my country are making and the ignorance that abounds in the general public that has been misled. We do not all feel, nor believe in this way.

[8Mud]

Occupying a foreign nation and killing people for whatever bs reason is still murder. Thou shalt not kill. How do you think we would feel and act if some foreign nation came in and controlled our daily actions, our electricity, our water, our business, and claimed they were giving us freedom? Your best friends were locked up in jail for months/years on end w/out justification just because they were males ages 15-50 accused of being terrorists? We have no business in Iraq, and no business in Afghanistan, especially if 15 out of 21 of the alleged 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Nothing America has or will do to "help" Iraq will make up for the damage done to millions of Iraqis over the past 15-20 years or the damage that has been done to America for wasting billions(edit: will be at least a few trillion the way they're dragging it on and looking for other countries to move on to while they're already over there) over there instead of helping over here.

Try not swallowing the accepted rhetoric (most anything that comes out of a politicians mouth is either misdirection or a lie), believe what your own senses tell you. Your personal hypothesis is likely closer to he truth than anything ypu are being told.
There is an Islamic movement underway, a combination of a cyclic migration that has been repeated before and the moderates and extremists being driven out of there own countries by various factions. It seems to have calmed down some in recent years, but is still virile enough to be a threat. Half of Europe was occupied for a short time by Islamic armies at one time or another. Think about the Islamic thrust up the guts of Russia and how they've been trying to deal with it for decades. The Balkans and now much of central and Northern Europe. It isn't so much an invasion as it is an insurgency.
The main problem with many of the Islamic immigrants is they don't want to integrate, they want to turn Europe into much the same kind of sheit hole they ran away from in the first place. They want to replace you, not live with you.
What are the alternatives? Assimilate the immigrants, pass laws that hinder there living standard (keep then uncomfortable), close the borders and pass strict immigration laws, straighten out their homeland some so they don't want to leave in the first place. Likely all of the above.
Nobody sane really wants to kill anybody else, except on very rare occasions. Just like nobody really wants to cut through good organs to get to a tumor.
Ignore it long enough and you just might wake up some morning to a guy with a whip herding you out for morning prayers.
The parallels between the Islamic movements (there are more than one), the Fascist and the Communist movements of the twentieth century are just to apparent to ignore.
Don't kid yourself, the movement isn't dead, it's just re manifesting at the moment. And will reemerge as something else with much the same goals, they want to replace YOU. Raise the price of energy much more and they may OWN you.
Ever heard the term Christian Soldier? People use the term Crusader today almost exclusively in a negative context, is it actually a negative. The nature of a society is either to expand, maintain the status quo or shrink. The status quo is said to be the most unstable option.

[JNickel101]

God, you guys can be so thick sometimes. Just because I think Bush is the biggest mistake this country has ever made does not mean I supported Clinton.


I am allowed to dislike Bush, because he's an idiot and a complete mess up as a President.

I honestly believe Bush had good intentions. But you're right - not the smartest man. He was given lots of bad information, surrounded himself with even BIGGER idiots (Rummy), and FINALLY put smart dudes in charge of the NSA and CIA. You wouldnt believe how farked up those two organizations had been - from about 1994 to about 2004/5.

My biggest beef now....Iraq is finally getting back up to producing about 2 mil barrels of oil a day - their max at one time (1989) was about 3.5 mil/day. I think we should be BILLING them for our OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom) costs. Instead, they're shipping 38% of their oil to India and China, because both of those countries have now built brand new refineries that can refine sour crude oil (which Iraq has - high sulfer content) into diesel fuel and kerosene.

[Wallymander]

I honestly believe Bush had good intentions. But you're right - not the smartest man. He was given lots of bad information, surrounded himself with even BIGGER idiots (Rummy), and FINALLY put smart dudes in charge of the NSA and CIA. You wouldnt believe how farked up those two organizations had been - from about 1994 to about 2004/5.

My biggest beef now....Iraq is finally getting back up to producing about 2 mil barrels of oil a day - their max at one time (1989) was about 3.5 mil/day. I think we should be BILLING them for our OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom) costs. Instead, they're shipping 38% of their oil to India and China, because both of those countries have now built brand new refineries that can refine sour crude oil (which Iraq has - high sulfer content) into diesel fuel and kerosene.


Agreed, we liberated france and most of europe in WWII, AND gave them money and support to restructure. Never saw a dime in return.
Same here, well probably never see any return on our investment. but thats because a govt and the private industry work 100 percent different, the govt operates with a deficit planned. We ought to charge them for the oil, i agree. NO freaking gratitude, we dont take land, dont subue, persecute, claim to own,
or stake claim on thier land.
But like i and others have said , this battle is not about iraq, iran, afganistan, russia, china, germany, mexico, turkey, Canada,antarctica, or any other man made boundry. ( i realize antarctica is not a man made boundary, but you get my point) Its a battle between Islam and the suppression of it by Forces that understand that islam is bad for the survival of free people. Look at europe today, they may very well be the future of America. Islamist leaders that wist to have "tolerance" are imposing thier sharia law, and every time someone speaks a word about muhammed or even MENTIONS muslim faith, or Muslim and Christian in the same sentence, theres riots and then calls for someones head. OVER NOTHING!!!!!
Its an oppressive, blood thirsty religion and they use our "afraid to offend" that weve created ourselves, against us. If we offend them, we should be punished. I disagree.

That is what this war is mainly about. Not Bin Laden.

[JNickel101]

There is a certain group of Muslims (or maybe its a Muslim believe as a whole) that has a goal of a worldwide Islamic State. As you can see with Iran starting to taunt us - this "war" is going to go on for a long time. We, along with the UK, have been keeping Iran out of places like Qatar and Bahrain for a long time (especially Bahrain). I dont trust the Saudis or Kuwaitis....or the UAE...or Oman....or Qatar....ok, ANY of these countries over here. They tend to say one thing to your face, and do another behind your back. They believe they can put a choke-hold on the world economy b/c they control so much "cheap" oil (meaning, its easy for them to extract it out of the ground, where as the majority of the oil in the US is in difficult to reach areas). They really dont want to pump more oil b/c they know the faster they run out of oil, the faster their countries will crumble. Once Saudi runs out of oil....they have NOTHING left to offer the world and the country as a whole will probably collapse. That could be in 15 years or in 40 years. Who knows.

I could write on and on :)

And yes, Islam + Europe = getting scary

[Darky]

Occupying a foreign nation and killing people for whatever bs reason is still murder. Thou shalt not kill. How do you think we would feel and act if some foreign nation came in and controlled our daily actions, our electricity, our water, our business, and claimed they were giving us freedom? Your best friends were locked up in jail for months/years on end w/out justification just because they were males ages 15-50 accused of being terrorists? We have no business in Iraq, and no business in Afghanistan, especially if 15 out of 21 of the alleged 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Nothing America has or will do to "help" Iraq will make up for the damage done to millions of Iraqis over the past 15-20 years or the damage that has been done to America for wasting billions(edit: will be at least a few trillion the way they're dragging it on and looking for other countries to move on to while they're already over there) over there instead of helping over here. I apologize now to yall and to the future generations that will look back on us and wonder why we sat back and let this ish happen and not stand up for the rights of all our fellow human beings. I am ashamed of the actions that the "leaders" of my country are making and the ignorance that abounds in the general public that has been misled. We do not all feel, nor believe in this way.
Killing isn't a first resort but it can come down to a necessity at times. Not everyone is going to respond to logic and reason or even the dangling carrot. Sometimes the only option left is to start taking some of em out until they either lose the will to fight or rethink they're actions.

[Trail-Axe]

Killing isn't a first resort but it can come down to a necessity at times. Not everyone is going to respond to logic and reason or even the dangling carrot. Sometimes the only option left is to start taking some of em out until they either lose the will to fight or rethink they're actions.

I agree with you BlackSport96.

-And killing is not always murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. I have no problem using deadly force to defend my life. I also have no problem using deadly force to stop other people from feloniously killing or attempting to bring great bodily harm to innocent people. And I have no problem going to another country and killing those who have, or are planning to come here and kill us.

I support our commander and chief president George W. Bush, and think he is doing a fine job.

As far as our nation being a Christian nation, well that is what folks think that come here for the first time from the mission fields of the world. Those who have been touched with the Holy Spirit, and worship Jesus the Christ. But when they get here, they stop thinking that America is a Christian nation. They see "In God We Trust" on our money, but then they see us spending that money on pornography, abortion, corrupt politicians, and drugs. They come here expecting to find one nation under God, and instead they find a nation without God. They see bumper stickers that read God bless America, when it should say America Bless God, for God has already blessed America. We should spend more time being thankful for what we already have, and spend less time getting into debt for what we do not have.

[SBrad001]

I agree with you BlackSport96.

-And killing is not always murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. I have no problem using deadly force to defend my life. I also have no problem using deadly force to stop other people from feloniously killing or attempting to bring great bodily harm to innocent people. And I have no problem going to another country and killing those who have, or are planning to come here and kill us.

I support our commander and chief president George W. Bush, and think he is doing a fine job.

As far as our nation being a Christian nation, well that is what folks think that come here for the first time from the mission fields of the world. Those who have been touched with the Holy Spirit, and worship Jesus the Christ. But when they get here, they stop thinking that America is a Christian nation. They see "In God We Trust" on our money, but then they see us spending that money on pornography, abortion, corrupt politicians, and drugs. They come here expecting to find one nation under God, and instead they find a nation without God. They see bumper stickers that read God bless America, when it should say America Bless God, for God has already blessed America. We should spend more time being thankful for what we already have, and spend less time getting into debt for what we do not have.

"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1




Are you done preaching and insulting people with your sig line?

[Ramsey]

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3667/threadcrapcomicbookguyfm8.jpg

[SBrad001]

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3667/threadcrapcomicbookguyfm8.jpg

Definitely does not get the Best Thread Ever Award.

[DrMoab]

As far as our nation being a Christian nation, well that is what folks think that come here for the first time from the mission fields of the world. Those who have been touched with the Holy Spirit, and worship Jesus the Christ. But when they get here, they stop thinking that America is a Christian nation. They see "In God We Trust" on our money, but then they see us spending that money on pornography, abortion, corrupt politicians, and drugs. They come here expecting to find one nation under God, and instead they find a nation without God. They see bumper stickers that read God bless America, when it should say America Bless God, for God has already blessed America. We should spend more time being thankful for what we already have, and spend less time getting into debt for what we do not have.
Dude....please please please quit posting your religious nonsense on this fourm. All it does is make me angry because it makes Train Driver look right and that pisses me off. :D

[JNickel101]

Occupying a foreign nation and killing people for whatever bs reason is still murder. Thou shalt not kill. How do you think we would feel and act if some foreign nation came in and controlled our daily actions, our electricity, our water, our business, and claimed they were giving us freedom? Your best friends were locked up in jail for months/years on end w/out justification just because they were males ages 15-50 accused of being terrorists? We have no business in Iraq, and no business in Afghanistan, especially if 15 out of 21 of the alleged 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Nothing America has or will do to "help" Iraq will make up for the damage done to millions of Iraqis over the past 15-20 years or the damage that has been done to America for wasting billions(edit: will be at least a few trillion the way they're dragging it on and looking for other countries to move on to while they're already over there) over there instead of helping over here. I apologize now to yall and to the future generations that will look back on us and wonder why we sat back and let this ish happen and not stand up for the rights of all our fellow human beings. I am ashamed of the actions that the "leaders" of my country are making and the ignorance that abounds in the general public that has been misled. We do not all feel, nor believe in this way.

Just because they were born in Saudi Arabia does not mean that is the country that was supporting them. The countries over here are more like "states" in the way the people move around. Up to 70% of the populations of Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE and Oman are NOT the "natives". There are TONS of Saudis, Syrians, Thai....the list goes on and on.

I hope you dont think all the money and killing we did in Europe to fight off another certain radical group of people was a "waste".

We are trying our best to NOT kill people in either country. Non-kinetic operations are at the the top of our list - but when you are being continually attacked, you can't just duck and cover...you have to defend yourself. Collateral (civilian) casualties are overall UNACCEPTABLE over here - unlike in WWII when we just bombed the shit out of anything and everything and didnt care if we killed combatants or civilians.

[TRNDRVR]

Dude....please please please quit posting your religious nonsense on this fourm. All it does is make me angry because it makes Train Driver look right and that pisses me off. :DRyan really, what more do you expect from a drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con whose only thing in life now is to grab onto his imaginary fairy-tale character friend for support to try to find out why he’s such a loser at life???

[TRNDRVR]

"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1Trail-Axe really, there is no god!

Now tell me how I'm "corrupt", how my "actions are evil", and again, how I "do no good". Please!

Mind you now, you don't even know me.

So post up your answers. I'm curious!

[8Mud]

Trail-Axe really, there is no god!

Now tell me how I'm "corrupt", how my "actions are evil", and again, how I "do no good". Please!

Mind you now, you don't even know me.

So post up your answers. I'm curious!

There are a lot of people who would say there is no evil. There are worse things than Christian values. Some people just need to keep a foot firmly planted in a belief system and aren't real impressed with the "LAW" (the sound of thunder, lighting flashes and a surreal image of justice glowing on the horizon).
The other extreme is adults molesting your children, people dancing naked in the streets, copulating on street corners, passed out on the sidewalks. Google Love Parade, images.

Maybe some of both extremes are needed to find any sort of balance.

[SBrad001]

Trail-Axe really, there is no god!

Now tell me how I'm "corrupt", how my "actions are evil", and again, how I "do no good". Please!

Mind you now, you don't even know me.

So post up your answers. I'm curious!

Isn't obvious? Since god created everything including morality, those that deny his power and legitimacy also deny god's gift of morality. And without telling us what's right and wrong, we can't do what right. And therefor we atheists are horrible heathens who are responsible for all the evils in the world.

[8Mud]

Isn't obvious? Since god created everything including morality, those that deny his power and legitimacy also deny god's gift of morality. And without telling us what's right and wrong, we can't do what right. And therefor we atheists are horrible heathens who are responsible for all the evils in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I

[SBrad001]

There are a lot of people who would say there is no evil. There are worst things than Christian values. Some people just need to keep a foot firmly planted in a belief system and aren't real impressed with the "LAW" (the sound of thunder, lighting flashes and a surreal image of justice glowing on the horizon).
The other extreme is adults molesting your children, people dancing naked in the streets, copulating on street corners, passed out on the sidewalks. Google Love Parade, images.

Maybe some of both extremes are needed to find any sort of balance.

I would never say that evil doesn't exist. And 'chirstian values' aren't on trial here. What is on trial is idiot that thinks that those that don't believe what he believes are less than him.

[8Mud]

I would never say that evil doesn't exist. And 'chirstian values' aren't on trial here. What is on trial is idiot that thinks that those that don't believe what he believes are less than him.
There sure enough is a difference between a nudge and a kick in the arse. :)

He either sincerely means well or is just baiting you. I lean towards the later.

[SBrad001]

There sure enough is a difference between a nudge and a kick in the arse. :)

He either sincerely means well or is just baiting you. I lean towards the later.

I'm so sick of people that 'mean well' trying to save me by insulting me, and I really don't think this cat is smart enough to bait someone on purposes.

[TRNDRVR]

I would never say that evil doesn't exist. And 'chirstian values' aren't on trial here. What is on trial is idiot that thinks that those that don't believe what he believes are less than him.He's just jealous that we're all not weak minded, drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con's such as himself.

[SBrad001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I


Funny stuff. I thought the one about gay animals was particularly funny.

[Darky]

Just to throw it out there, but I've never taken those verses as a direct insult when taken in context with the rest of the Bible. Verses like that and the Law are meant today to point out our shortcomings and need for God. Being a Christian doesn't make me smarter, better-looking, or better than you in any way, I do that naturally (;) J/K). It's like the bumper sticker says, "Not perfect, just forgiven." Every Christian is a sinner; every non-Christian is a sinner. The key difference is that Christian's have recognized their state and repented and asked forgiveness. We still sin, we just strive not to. Hopefully that clears things up a little without fostering more debate... :)

[Darky]

He's just jealous that we're all not weak minded, drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con's such as himself.
Seriously, you would annoy me even if I was on your side...You act like you have a guilty conscience but are afraid or unwilling to stop and think about it. Slow down, back up and do whatever you need to do to relax. The attack mode (even if you're just screwing around) gets old.

[TRNDRVR]

Just to throw it out there, but I've never taken those verses as a direct insult when taken in context with the rest of the Bible. Verses like that and the Law are meant today to point out our shortcomings and need for God. Being a Christian doesn't make me smarter, better-looking, or better than you in any way, I do that naturally (;) J/K). It's like the bumper sticker says, "Not perfect, just forgiven." Every Christian is a sinner; every non-Christian is a sinner. The key difference is that Christian's have recognized their state and repented and asked forgiveness. We still sin, we just strive not to. Hopefully that clears things up a little without fostering more debate... :)So......you're saying that because you read the bible and I don't, you know from right and wrong, know how to fix your wrongs, and I don't?

[8Mud]

Just to throw it out there, but I've never taken those verses as a direct insult when taken in context with the rest of the Bible. Verses like that and the Law are meant today to point out our shortcomings and need for God. Being a Christian doesn't make me smarter, better-looking, or better than you in any way, I do that naturally (;) J/K). It's like the bumper sticker says, "Not perfect, just forgiven." Every Christian is a sinner; every non-Christian is a sinner. The key difference is that Christian's have recognized their state and repented and asked forgiveness. We still sin, we just strive not to. Hopefully that clears things up a little without fostering more debate... :)

Well said.

And to answer TRNDRVR, one of my prime tenants is to do the right thing whenever possible. At one time I was so far out there I had no idea what the right thing was. I once drove a tank through a field littered with hundreds of wounded civilians, they were between me and the enemy. Personally I had to take a few steps backwards, to make any progress. I got back to basics and started growing again in a new direction.
I'm nor promoting it, or even advocating it, it worked me after a fashion and likely kept me out of jail at a minimum, helped me keep my sanity after a fashion or more likely kept me out of a grave.
It is an alternative, though I don't believe the only alternative. I'm sure not willing to cut it loose because you think it's BS and maybe return to my old ways.
What I don't get is the need to attack somebody else's belief system, if it works don't fix it.

[Darky]

So......you're saying that because you read the bible and I don't, you know from right and wrong, know how to fix your wrongs, and I don't?
I won't debate with you because you have interest in an actual "debate"/conversation. Your goal is to cause "hate and discontent" as they used to say in the Marine Corps...:)
To answer your question, reread my post without coloring it to mean what you want.

[TRNDRVR]

You act like you have a guilty conscience but are afraid or unwilling to stop and think about it.Everybody is guilty of something. Including myself. But it's nothing so bad that I have to succumb to imaginary fairy-tale characters to explain to myself why I was such a loser.

Sorry, but I tend to have the ability to stand for myself and not have to rely on a crutch to get through life. 46 years and its worked just fine so far.

:conceited

[Ray H]

Isn't obvious? Since god created everything including morality, those that deny his power and legitimacy also deny god's gift of morality. And without telling us what's right and wrong, we can't do what right. And therefor we atheists are horrible heathens who are responsible for all the evils in the world.

Its funny, Im a heathen who has been accepted into a family of christians (my wife and her family are baptists). The very first thing my wife liked about me, before we actually even met, was my high character and morals. We worked at the same place but had never met. One day I went to our payroll office to tell them they had made a mistake on my paycheck (they overpaid me). No one ever brought it to their attention for being "overpaid" before. My wife and I were both good friends of the payroll person and thats how we got hooked up. It was my "character and honesty" that she liked even before we had met.
Im pretty sure that the way this particular "heathen" conducts himself has changed their views of those people without faith. I know my views of the faithful have changed over the years. We have both become much more tolerant and respectful. I now understand how deeply rooted their faith is and that I wont be changing their beliefs any time soon. I think they feel the same about me. I dont think they look down on me for my beliefs, unfortunitely they do pitty me because they believe Im going to hell when I die. It does bother me some to be pittied but I can live with it and Im not worried about hell.
I pitty those folks who have never met anyone that changed their views on "heathens". Its a real shame to go through life knowing that everyone who doesnt believe the same as you are killers, rapists, ect.

[TRNDRVR]

Your goal is to cause "hate and discontent" as they used to say in the Marine Corps...:) Hey now, are you calling me a republican?
To answer your question, reread my post without coloring it to mean what you want. Can't answer my question, can you?

[Darky]

Its funny, Im a heathen who has been accepted into a family of christians (my wife and her family are baptists). The very first thing my wife liked about me, before we actually even met, was my high character and morals. We worked at the same place but had never met. One day I went to our payroll office to tell them they had made a mistake on my paycheck (they overpaid me). No one ever brought it to their attention for being "overpaid" before. My wife and I were both good friends of the payroll person and thats how we got hooked up. It was my "character and honesty" that she liked even before we had met.
Im pretty sure that the way this particular "heathen" conducts himself has changed their views of those people without faith. I know my views of the faithful have changed over the years. We have both become much more tolerant and respectful. I now understand how deeply rooted their faith is and that I wont be changing their beliefs any time soon. I think they feel the same about me. I dont think they look down on me for my beliefs, unfortunitely they do pitty me because they believe Im going to hell when I die. It does bother me some to be pittied but I can live with it and Im not worried about hell.
I pitty those folks who have never met anyone that changed their views on "heathens". Its a real shame to go through life knowing that everyone who doesnt believe the same as you are killers, rapists, ect.
See, I lived most of my life as a church-going heathen. I went to church regularly but didn't actually change anything based on it. I know that being a non-believer doesn't make you a rapist or murderer or other criminal, there's been plenty of professing Christian's who've committed plenty of crimes. As an easy example, listen to rap music. Half of them profess belief in God and acknowledge His hand in their life, but if they did even a quarter of what they rap about, they're worse off than 90% of society. I finally actually started to try to walk the walk of a Christian when I looked back over my life and so too many things I couldn't explain away as coincidence to deny His direction in my life. I'll hang out with believer or non-believer, doesn't matter to me.

Dan: A child knows right from wrong before even being able to read. Its ingrained in human nature. I've never claimed that you have to be a Christian to do the right thing. Like I said, reread my post:Being a Christian doesn't make me smarter, better-looking, or better than you in any way, I do that naturally ( J/K). It's like the bumper sticker says, "Not perfect, just forgiven." Every Christian is a sinner; every non-Christian is a sinner.

[TRNDRVR]

Verses like that and the Law are meant today to point out our shortcomings and need for God.What I can say here is that I don't have any "shortcomings" so bad that I need god. But the true "born-agains CAN'T believe that.Not perfect, just forgiven."Question.....why don't you try to forgive yourself?




Weak= Needs crutch to explain their faults

Strong= Stands for themselves and learns from their faults

That's how I see it.

[Ray H]

See, I lived most of my life as a church-going heathen. I went to church regularly but didn't actually change anything based on it. I know that being a non-believer doesn't make you a rapist or murderer or other criminal, there's been plenty of professing Christian's who've committed plenty of crimes. As an easy example, listen to rap music. Half of them profess belief in God and acknowledge His hand in their life, but if they did even a quarter of what they rap about, they're worse off than 90% of society. I finally actually started to try to walk the walk of a Christian when I looked back over my life and so too many things I couldn't explain away as coincidence to deny His direction in my life. I'll hang out with believer or non-believer, doesn't matter to me.



I know, my post wasnt directed at you. I have a feeling that you and I have more in common than we have differences. Really when It comes down to it, the biggest difference we have is our faith, or lack of it in my case. Our moral standards and the way we conduct ourselves are probably pretty similar.

[Darky]

Well, you can go on and be strong enough to not need to "prove" how strong you are everytime religion/faith is discussed.


Ray: I agree. Most of the threads we end up posting in we have fairly similar views. And like I said, I don't necessarily choose and reject people/friends based on their faith or lack thereof. :)
Hell, I could probably even sit down and have a beer with Dan here as long as we don't mention religion or politics...;)

[TRNDRVR]

What I don't get is the need to attack somebody else's belief system, if it works don't fix it.
"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1What comes around goes around!

[TRNDRVR]

Hell, I could probably even sit down and have a beer with Dan here as long as we don't mention religion or politics...;)
See you in JV. I'm buying! :cheers:

[SBrad001]

Well, you can go on and be strong enough to not need to "prove" how strong you are everytime religion/faith is discussed.


Ray: I agree. Most of the threads we end up posting in we have fairly similar views. And like I said, I don't necessarily choose and reject people/friends based on their faith or lack thereof. :)
Hell, I could probably even sit down and have a beer with Dan here as long as we don't mention religion or politics...;)


Understand what TRNDVR is saying. I've had friends turn their lives around with the help of religion, but what they fail to see is that they are the ones who turned their lives around. They did the suffering. They kicked the addictions, they turned a shitty marriages into a good marriages. Yet they give all the credit to some non-existent deity. Did god lessen their suffering? Did god suffer for them so they wouldn't have to suffer all the crap in their lives? No. They still had to suffer it all on their own. So why on earth can't they take responsibility for the their own lives?

[Darky]

When you comin down? My Jeep most likely won't be able to run any trails...but I'm always good to watch, hitch a ride, whatever.:)

[TRNDRVR]

So why on earth can't they take responsibility for the their own lives?For as much crap I flip them and ask the same question, I can NEVER get a straight answer. :rolleyes:

[8Mud]

For as much crap I flip them and ask the same question, I can NEVER get a straight answer. :rolleyes:

Does it really make any difference if you follow somebody else's road signs or follow your own path as long as you get where your going without crashing or getting lost.

[Goatman]

Ryan really, what more do you expect from a drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con whose only thing in life now is to grab onto his imaginary fairy-tale character friend for support to try to find out why he’s such a loser at life???


Everybody is guilty of something. Including myself. But it's nothing so bad that I have to succumb to imaginary fairy-tale characters to explain to myself why I was such a loser.

Sorry, but I tend to have the ability to stand for myself and not have to rely on a crutch to get through life. 46 years and its worked just fine so far.

:conceited

OK, Dan, now you and I are going to have to talk "religion" the next time we sit down and have a few beers. We'll see if we can do it in a way that doesn't invoke insults from either of us................ :moon:

I do sort of agree with you on something, though. Us Christians are worse than you non-Christians, not better than you. We need Christ because of who we are and what we've done, anyone who says different is misrepresenting our position. And, I certainly can't comment on who's trying harder to live a moral life, that's an internal thing that no one knows. I know many non-Christians who try to always do the right thing, I could never judge someone like that, as I know plenty of Christians who don't. Just because we have faith doesn't make us a better person, though hopefully our beliefs will work to that end, not being better than someone else, just better than we were before. Each of us still makes decisions on an ongoing bases about what our behavior will be, and behavior is really all that we can call good or bad.

Also, I really don't see how you can criticize our faith in God. You appear to have just as strong a faith that there is no God.......what's the difference? I'm sure you believe what you believe based on evidence that you see, I certainly believe what I believe based on evidence that I've seen. Which one of us has seen the more accurate evidence or has the correct faith? Only time will tell. :cheers:

[Darky]

Does it really make any difference if you follow somebody else's road signs or follow your own path as long as you get where your going without crashing or getting lost.
good analogy

[SBrad001]

Does it really make any difference if you follow somebody else's road signs or follow your own path as long as you get where your going without crashing or getting lost.

That would be great, 8Mud, if everyone thought that way, but Trail-Axe's sig line is far from that sentiment. I'm perfectly fine with you believing in a high power. But I don't care for some twit telling me I'm 'evil' and can 'do no good' because I don't believe in god. That guy uses biblical quotes to justify his hatred and bigotry.

Allow me to provide an example.

"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is a God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"

Changing one little word and suddenly this quote becomes an attack on christians. Don't tell me you don't find this some what insulting.

[Ray H]

OK, Dan, now you and I are going to have to talk "religion" the next time we sit down and have a few beers. We'll see if we can do it in a way that doesn't invoke insults from either of us................ :moon:

I do sort of agree with you on something, though. Us Christians are worse than you non-Christians, not better than you. We need Christ because of who we are and what we've done, anyone who says different is misrepresenting our position. And, I certainly can't comment on who's trying harder to live a moral life, that's an internal thing that no one knows. I know many non-Christians who try to always do the right thing, I could never judge someone like that, as I know plenty of Christians who don't. Just because we have faith doesn't make us a better person, though hopefully our beliefs will work to that end, not being better than someone else, just better than we were before. Each of us still makes decisions on an ongoing bases about what our behavior will be, and behavior is really all that we can call good or bad.

Also, I really don't see how you can criticize our faith in God. You appear to have just as strong a faith that there is no God.......what's the difference? I'm sure you believe what you believe based on evidence that you see, I certainly believe what I believe based on evidence that I've seen. Which one of us has seen the more accurate evidence or has the correct faith? Only time will tell. :cheers:

As far as I know, good or bad has little to nothing to do with it. The way I understand it, being a christian has nothing to do with how good or bad you have been or currently are. It has to do with whether or not you have accepted god into your life. There are plenty of murderers who have accepted christ and fully believe they will be going to heaven and then there are those people who have not accepted him but are doing the best they can to leading righteous lives and have never hurt anyone and they will be going to hell no matter how good they live simply because they dont believe. This is something that was hard for me to understand for a long time. How can someone who leads an exemplary life be denied heaven. Its easy, the key is, you must believe to get into heaven, it doesnt matter how good or bad you have been or what path you take, or how you end up. If you live to be 70 years old, you can kill, rape, lie, covet for 69 years as long as you accept christ at the last minute, you're in like flynn. It doesnt seem right, but thats the way it is.

[DrMoab]

So......you're saying that because you read the bible and I don't, you know from right and wrong, know how to fix your wrongs, and I don't?
I don't read the bible, in fact I am not really that religious and I feel the same way.

In so many ways I see you exactly as I see a preaching Born again. The only difference is whatever happened in your life caused you to reject religion and god where as a Born again accepts god.

Honestly as much as you are on here going against anyone who brings up god really makes you a hypocrite. You both are just exactly the same, just on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[98XJSport]

If you live to be 70 years old, you can kill, rape, lie, covet for 69 years as long as you accept christ at the last minute, you're in like flynn. It doesnt seem right, but thats the way it is.

Im going for the life of sin, followed by the presto-chango deathbed repentance. -Bart Simpson

[TRNDRVR]

Does it really make any difference if you follow somebody else's road signs or follow your own path as long as you get where your going without crashing or getting lost.Not to me it doesn't. But ask trail-axe this same question and see what he says.

[TRNDRVR]

I don't read the bible, in fact I am not really that religious and I feel the same way.

In so many ways I see you exactly as I see a preaching Born again. The only difference is whatever happened in your life caused you to reject religion and god where as a Born again accepts god.

Honestly as much as you are on here going against anyone who brings up god really makes you a hypocrite. You both are just exactly the same, just on opposite ends of the spectrum.No where can I recollect that I've EVER started a post with religious undertones.

Someone else starts them,......game on! :D

*edit* Nothing happened in my life to reject religion. I was raised in a non-religious/god fearing/church going family.

[TRNDRVR]

There are plenty of murderers who have accepted christ and fully believe they will be going to heaven and then there are those people who have not accepted him but are doing the best they can to leading righteous lives and have never hurt anyone and they will be going to hell no matter how good they live simply because they dont believe
So, is your god a forgiving god or not? From the looks of it, I'd vote no.

If not believing in god is a sin, will I not be given to opportunity upon my death to decide for myself? (if god really exist)

Personally, I'm one with Bart.

[Goatman]

Ah, c'mon Dan, you answer the other guys but you don't answer me?

I feel left out. :D

[jeeplas]

This country was never Christian. And last I looked it was for religous freedom where the Church and State were seperate. Remember the whole "melting pot"? that doesnt just apply to race, but creed too.

The whole church and state seperate thing was meant to give religions protection from government influence not the other way around. In England they were forced to practice the same beliefs as the king and queen. We were and always will be a christian nation.

[SeansBlueXJ]

The whole church and state seperate thing was meant to give religions protection from government influence not the other way around. In England they were forced to practice the same beliefs as the king and queen. We were and always will be a christian nation.

:rtm: i think we covered that it clearely wasnt pages ago. And interpet it how you want but i think it;s a bad thing to have religous influences in Gov't. I mean ist that why so many here rant on about the middle east? their religon is influenceing their political dealings.

[8Mud]

The whole church and state seperate thing was meant to give religions protection from government influence not the other way around. In England they were forced to practice the same beliefs as the king and queen. We were and always will be a christian nation.

People get ate up with the separation of the church and state thing. First off it's a fallacy, much like any special interest group the church gets it's say in Government.
In Germany everybody pays a church tax, the money is used to keep that option viable for anybody who wishes to use it. Doesn't seem to upset anybody much, even the rabid atheists.
People get so wrapped up in the fine points they loose track of the goals. Like most everything else, the extremists screw it up for everybody.

[Darky]

He is a forgiving God, but you have to ask for forgiveness and turn away from your sin. Your given your entire life to decide, if you spend your entire life denying Him, you don't get a chance after death.

Ray: I've always had a hard time with whole presto-change-o deathbed conversion myself, but that's one of them things I have to deal with...When Jesus was on the cross, the thief next to him asked for His mercy, and Jesus told him he would see paradise that day. The other thief rejected Him to the end.

[Bent]

...will I not be given to opportunity upon my death to decide for myself?
Yes, we ALL will. However, it is up to each of us as individuals to determine as to whether or not it's too late.

[TRNDRVR]

OK, Dan, now you and I are going to have to talk "religion" the next time we sit down and have a few beers. We'll see if we can do it in a way that doesn't invoke insults from either of us................ :moon:Like I said to blacksport98, I'm buying.

We need Christ because of who we are and what we've done, anyone who says different is misrepresenting our position.So, somewhere along the line you've hit some kind of rock bottom when you refer to "who we are and what we've done"Which one of us has seen the more accurate evidence or has the correct faith? Only time will tell. :cheers:The crap-shoot of life!
Ah, c'mon Dan, you answer the other guys but you don't answer me?

I feel left out. :DI think I asked you earlier Richard. When was the last time you preached to me?

I'm pretty sure your answer will be "never".

I guess you're the exception to the rule, because I've never heard anything from you on the level of trailaxe.

Also, I really don't see how you can criticize our faith in God.I only aim my hostility towards this topic when "people" post crap like what is quoted below.

"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
-Psalm 53:1Like I said, what comes around goes around.

[TRNDRVR]

If not believing in god is a sin, will I not be given to opportunity upon my death to decide for myself?He is a forgiving God, but you have to ask for forgiveness and turn away from your sin. Your given your entire life to decide, if you spend your entire life denying Him, you don't get a chance after death.Yes, we ALL will. However, it is up to each of us as individuals to determine as to whether or not it's too late.
Let the back-pedaling begin. :confused1

[Darky]

No backpedaling from me. There's many different denominations of Christianity, each with different beliefs on every imaginable subject. The influence of man. From what I've read, there is no chance after death. There's no faith involved in believing something you see. It takes no faith for me to believe that my jeep will climb the big hill behind my in-law's house, I've driven up it. If you die and see God, it takes no faith to believe in Him and what He's done.

[Bent]

No backpedaling from me.
Nor me. It is clear we have hit a nerve, though.

[TRNDRVR]

Nor me. It is clear we have hit a nerve, though.No nerve.

I just see 2 guys here who believe in the same thing saying 2 different things about the same topic.

Somebody here is stepping on their penis, and it's certainly not me.


:conceited

[GSequoia]

He is a forgiving God...

That's one of my biggest problems with just about all religons. They all say their God is a great guy, you really want to be friends with him, he'd give you the shirt off his back, etc...

But they also say if you commit the crime of not believing in him you're damned to an eternity being seperated from him (be hit hell or whatever).

So let's say I'm just the best person in the world. I feed the homeless, help the needy, and in general make the world a better place every day (so basically the opposite of what I am!). I'm driving my Jeep down the 110 one morning and a tractor trailer hauling Propane runs me over and kills me (damn you Ryan, you were texting while driving!). *Poof*

Now why do I go to hell? I wasn't born into the religion so I didn't believe. Or hell, maybe you're wrong and some oddball religion that's only known on a small island off the coast of India is the correct one, I didn't know about it so didnt' believe. Why would a "loving" god send me to hell?

It's one of the biggest logical flaws right on the surface in my eyes.

[Ray H]

So, is your god a forgiving god or not? From the looks of it, I'd vote no.

If not believing in god is a sin, will I not be given to opportunity upon my death to decide for myself? (if god really exist)

Personally, I'm one with Bart.

Its not my god. I dont beleive in god, but I try to see both sides. I was just trying to add to the fire.

[TRNDRVR]

That's one of my biggest problems with just about all religons. They all say their God is a great guy, you really want to be friends with him, he'd give you the shirt off his back, etc...

But they also say if you commit the crime of not believing in him you're damned to an eternity being seperated from him (be hit hell or whatever).

So let's say I'm just the best person in the world. I feed the homeless, help the needy, and in general make the world a better place every day (so basically the opposite of what I am!). I'm driving my Jeep down the 110 one morning and a tractor trailer hauling Propane runs me over and kills me (damn you Ryan, you were texting while driving!). *Poof*

Now why do I go to hell? I wasn't born into the religion so I didn't believe. Or hell, maybe you're wrong and some oddball religion that's only known on a small island off the coast of India is the correct one, I didn't know about it so didnt' believe. Why would a "loving" god send me to hell?

It's one of the biggest logical flaws right on the surface in my eyes.Your turn G, I'm getting bored with this toy.

:conceited

[Bent]

I just see 2 guys here who believe in the same thing saying 2 different things about the same topic.

:rolleyes:
We are both saying the same thing. I just didn't define "too late", he did. Think instead of grasping at straws.

[smcdonaldaz]

im catholic :D

Ummm, last I checked, Catholics are christian too. Or did I miss your point?

[jeeplas]

Now why do I go to hell? I wasn't born into the religion so I didn't believe. Or hell, maybe you're wrong and some oddball religion that's only known on a small island off the coast of India is the correct one, I didn't know about it so didnt' believe. Why would a "loving" god send me to hell?

It's one of the biggest logical flaws right on the surface in my eyes.

But you do know that is the key. You have been told by people and if you have ever read any of the bible that that is the way it is. You can choose to ignore it or investigate it farther and decide for yourself what you want to do.

[Ray H]

That's one of my biggest problems with just about all religons. They all say their God is a great guy, you really want to be friends with him, he'd give you the shirt off his back, etc...

But they also say if you commit the crime of not believing in him you're damned to an eternity being seperated from him (be hit hell or whatever).

So let's say I'm just the best person in the world. I feed the homeless, help the needy, and in general make the world a better place every day (so basically the opposite of what I am!). I'm driving my Jeep down the 110 one morning and a tractor trailer hauling Propane runs me over and kills me (damn you Ryan, you were texting while driving!). *Poof*

Now why do I go to hell? I wasn't born into the religion so I didn't believe. Or hell, maybe you're wrong and some oddball religion that's only known on a small island off the coast of India is the correct one, I didn't know about it so didnt' believe. Why would a "loving" god send me to hell?

It's one of the biggest logical flaws right on the surface in my eyes.

Youre on the right track, only those who have faith will be admitted through the gates, it doesnt matter how you lived. Maybe someone who has scripture in front of them can answer this better but I think there are special provisions that allows for infants and others who dont know about christianity. Basically those who havent had the decision to make.
I cant answer the "loving god" question. that one baffles me as well. Its kind of a "love me or else" thing that I dont get.

[TRNDRVR]

You have been told by people and if you have ever read any of the bible that that is the way it is.That's just like saying that everything you read on the internet is true.

The bible was written by man for the pleasure of man. How do you know it's true? Because "You have been told by people and if you have ever read any of the bible that that is the way it is"?

Come on now.....hasta

[Goatman]

That's one of my biggest problems with just about all religons. They all say their God is a great guy, you really want to be friends with him, he'd give you the shirt off his back, etc...

But they also say if you commit the crime of not believing in him you're damned to an eternity being seperated from him (be hit hell or whatever).

So let's say I'm just the best person in the world. I feed the homeless, help the needy, and in general make the world a better place every day (so basically the opposite of what I am!). I'm driving my Jeep down the 110 one morning and a tractor trailer hauling Propane runs me over and kills me (damn you Ryan, you were texting while driving!). *Poof*

Now why do I go to hell? I wasn't born into the religion so I didn't believe. Or hell, maybe you're wrong and some oddball religion that's only known on a small island off the coast of India is the correct one, I didn't know about it so didnt' believe. Why would a "loving" god send me to hell?

It's one of the biggest logical flaws right on the surface in my eyes.


Excellent question, and there is a very logical answer from the Christian perspective. One day, if it ever comes up when we're talking, we can talk about it. As with most things, perspective brings it all into line..........even if you're talking about suspensions or reliability.

[jeeplas]

That's just like saying that everything you read on the internet is true.

The bible was written by man for man. How do you know it's true? Because "You have been told by people and if you have ever read any of the bible that that is the way it is"?

Come on now.....hasta

I think I was answering Geoff. I already know that you are not open to even the remote possiblity and I will pray for you.

[TRNDRVR]

I will pray for you.Tell me, for whose pleasure are you going to do this for? Mine or yours?

What will you get out of it?

What will I get out of it?

Will it work?

????????

Again........hasta

[Darky]

but I think there are special provisions that allows for infants and others who dont know about christianity. Basically those who havent had the decision to make.

I don't have the scriptures here in front of me but I do remember something about an age of accountability. Basically, infants, small children, those who haven't yet reached an age/mental capacity to understand what's going on are held accountable.

Geoff: Basically, (mind you this is how it's been explained to me) He is a loving and forgiving God, however, if you choose not to believe after hearing the truth, you have rejected Him and kinda sealed your own fate. God analogy: The Gospel is a life preserver thrown out to a drowning world, you can choose to take hold of it and live or reject it and drown. There is no swimming for shore.
As far as for those who haven't had an opportunity to hear and are past the aforementioned age of accountability, its supposed to work that everyone will hear at least once. That's why if you hear and it resonates, its not wise to put it off, it could be the last chance you have. However I struggle with this one myself...Surely there's unknown tribes in Africa or the Amazon, etc that have never heard the Word and are dying on a regular basis. So, that's the best answer I can give you.

[jeeplas]

Will it work?

????????



Only God knows!

[Darky]

Tell me, for whose pleasure are you going to do this for? Mine or yours?

What will you get out of it?

What will I get out of it?

Will it work?

????????

Again........hasta
Why do you object to her praying for you? Would it work better for if she were to send out positive vibes? :) Sometimes there is a time to hold your fingers(?) and not send back the sarcastic reply. Just for your sake, after I finish praying for you, I will also offer up a burnt offering of bald tires to the off-road gods for you;)

[TRNDRVR]

Why do you object to her praying for you?Because what's the point?

You're wasting your time!

I'm sitting here in Grand Junction and I don't feel any different. Must not be working.

Once again.......hasta

[8Mud]

I don't have the scriptures here in front of me but I do remember something about an age of accountability. Basically, infants, small children, those who haven't yet reached an age/mental capacity to understand what's going on are held accountable.

Geoff: Basically, (mind you this is how it's been explained to me) He is a loving and forgiving God, however, if you choose not to believe after hearing the truth, you have rejected Him and kinda sealed your own fate. God analogy: The Gospel is a life preserver thrown out to a drowning world, you can choose to take hold of it and live or reject it and drown. There is no swimming for shore.
As far as for those who haven't had an opportunity to hear and are past the aforementioned age of accountability, its supposed to work that everyone will hear at least once. That's why if you hear and it resonates, its not wise to put it off, it could be the last chance you have. However I struggle with this one myself...Surely there's unknown tribes in Africa or the Amazon, etc that have never heard the Word and are dying on a regular basis. So, that's the best answer I can give you.
Those who live as the animals and have never known the word of God are saved. As are those too young to understand it as opposed to those who have heard the word and rejected it.
I'm probably slaughtering the passage, but that is as close as I can remember.
I also remember a passage that said, only the hecklers are truly damned. I don't know the truth or accuracy of the passage, but sure don't think it's prudent to go out of my way for amusement to test the validity of the passage. :)

[Darky]

Because what's the point?

You're wasting your time!

I'm sitting here in Grand Junction and I don't feel any different. Must not be working.

Once again.......hasta
You taunting me, her, or Trail-Axe to talk us out of our beliefs is pretty pointless too...I'm sitting here in 29 Palms and don't believe any different...:)

[Trail-Axe]

There have been some good discussion in this thread by many of us. Some questions may still exist and I will attempt to answer them as best I can. The following is all biblically based. I have attended Calvary Chapel Bible College in Costa Mesa where I formally studied the word of God. In addition I have been a student of the Bible on my own for the past nine years. Anyone who does not know the scripture verses that support what I have written can PM me and I will provide them. Keep in mind that I am not infallible, and nothing I have written should be taken as Gospel, only the Holy Bible can provide that. But what I have written is a good and accurate commentary of what I believe to be true regarding the gospel message. The only truly safe bet is to read the Bible for yourself, as I have done every day for the past nine years of my life. I recommend you start with the gospel of John.

************************************************** ************



Do people go to hell simply because they do not believe in Jesus Christ? I do not believe that the Bible teaches that at all, in fact I believe it is an insult to God to teach such heresy. Let us first examine man from God’s perspective and find out why any one would go to hell.

Man is sinful. All have sinned. What is sin? Well to answer that we first must examine what is Holy. God is holy, that means he always acts in accordance with His divine nature. He is always just, always light and always love. There is no injustice with God, no darkness, and nothing evil. God’s standard for righteousness is Himself. In order to be considered righteous by God, man has to be exactly like God in all that man does, or in the example given to us 2000 years ago, exactly like Jesus. The Ten Commandments are summed up in two. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. God knows that unless we love Him with all our strength, we will never be able to love our neighbor perfectly. For God is love, and in order to be loving, we must know the source of love, God.

Not a single one of us has ever kept all of the Ten Commandments, and most of us, myself included have broken everyone of them either literally, or in his heart. The Lord Jesus said that if we are angry with our brother without a cause, we are in danger of the same judgment as murder, or if we look at a woman to lust, we have already committed adultery in our hearts. And who among us can say he has never lied, or fudged on his taxes even a little. Who can say he has never stolen anything, ever?

So my point is made. We have all broken the law of God, whether we believe in Him or not, whether we live in some remote village, or grew up in some family with no religion at all, we all fall short of God’s standard of righteousness. One of God’s attributes is justice, and God has said that the soul that sins must die. So we all will die, and be eternally separated from a holy God. Since God is holy, he can have no fellowship with the unholy. Though man was created in the image and likeness of God, man chose to disobey God and was separated from Him.

God has the right to set the standard, since He is the creator. Who are we to say to God, why did you make me like this? Can the creature really find fault with the creator who gave to him his very breath. The answer is no. When we chose to disobey God, our fate was sealed. We had a death sentence on our head. This fact alone should cause one to tremble before God in fear. The Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

So no one destined for hell (a place created by God that has no light, only darkness, and no joy, only weeping and gnashing of teeth, because it is a place separated from God who is light) can say that God has sent them there because they simply chose the wrong religion or no religion at all. They are sent there because they have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And no one in hell right now will say that God is unfair. Every soul in hell knows they deserve to be there, for God is a just God, or He is no God at all.

But now the Good News. God is also a forgiving and very loving God. But He can not be a God of justice and simply forgive us just because His nature is forgiving and loving, that would contradict His nature as a God of justice who rightly judges sin. The Bible says that the penalty for sin, be it murder, or a white lie, is the same; eternal death and separation from God in a place called Hell. The Bible says that if we have broken one of God’s commandments, we have broken them all.
So God sent His one and only Son, Jesus the Christ. Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life in the flesh, was tempted in every way any man has ever been tempted, but Jesus never gave in, He never sinned. Instead, he healed the sick and lame, He raised the dead to life, he fed the hungry, and he associated with all men, but did not partake of the sins of any. He was not sent here to send anyone to Hell, but to live a perfect life, and to give us a perfect example of His Father in heaven.

When it came time for Him to lay down His life, He pleaded with His Father that this death would escape Him, the shame of the cross was before Him, the mockery that would follow Him to the grave and the insults, but most of all the separation from His Father in the hour of His death was before Him. A separation He had never known in all eternity! But Jesus was obedient even unto death. Why? Because you and I have sinned, and because He loved us and knew there was no other way.

Our sin must be judged, and after that we are eternally separated from God in a place called Hell for all eternity. There was no other way for mankind to stand before God and escape judgment, apart from that judgment falling on God’s one and only Son. If there was any other way, any other religion, any man that could truly live a sin free life, then God would not have sacrificed His own Son.

Now listen very carefully to what I am about to reveal. God’s love was demonstrated in that while we were still sinners, Christ took our sin upon Himself and died. The death that was meant for us, was upon Him who knew no sin. Three days later He rose from the dead, and He lives forever more. That is a true demonstration of God’s love, and the only demonstration we need. When people say how could a loving God allow this, or allow that (you fill in the blank), I look to the cross and see a loving God taking the sins of the world upon Himself, it is at the cross of Jesus Christ that my eyes see the God of love. The evil in this world is a demonstration of all that is apposed to God, not a demonstration of His lack of love. He promises to return, and make all things new, in that day the faithful will rejoice together, and every tear wiped from our eyes.

God took our sin and our punishment upon Himself so He remains a God of justice who rightly judges sin. No one can say to God he is unjust and allows murders, and thieves to go to heaven without judgment. He took the punishment of our sin upon Himself, and then said that whoever believes in this divine act of love will be forgiven. And this faith is a living faith, and only God knows if a man is truly repentful. God can judge if a man about to die is truly coming to a saving faith in his last hour of life, and if given another chance to live would live rightly and faithfully. But the Bible also warns us that every time we hear the Gospel message and reject it, our hearts get harder, and harder. The man who spends his entire life rejecting Christ (as apposed to the one who hears of Christ for the first time in His last hour of life), will more likely die in his sins, self righteous in his own eyes, and eternally separated from God. Prayer and fasting is a means available to the believer for the friend, or family member with a heart that has rejected Christ. Through prayer, God can soften a man's heart.

So the God I preach is a forgiving God, and this forgiveness is found through the death of His Son, and through no one else, and nothing else. There is no other way for man to escape eternal death, apart from a real and living faith in Christ. No religion, and no amount of good works can earn man his pardon. God has provided the only way, the only truth, and the only real life, and that life is found in faith in Jesus Christ alone. Christians like me make that way known. The choice to accept it is yours, as are the consequences for rejecting it. Rejecting the payment for your sins means you accept the consequences for them instead.

No one who has read this will be able to stand before God and claim he did not know. And those who never knew will simply be rightly judged for their sins. This is why Christ commanded those of us who believe in Him to go into all the world and preach the Gospel message; because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Romans 10:14-15:
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

"How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

[SBrad001]

Frankly Trail-Axe, I could care less about this stuff. I simply find you sig line quote insulting and demeaning. If I change one little work in that quote, it suddenly becomes an attack on christians. So the why fark should stand by and allow you to state that I am "a fool", "corrupt" and that my "actions are evil" or that I'm not a good person simply because I'm an atheist?

You can take you moral superiority and . . . and well you know what you can do with it.

But the most I'm going to get out you, is you hiding behind biblical scripture quotes. You are a painfully shallow and sad person in my eyes who will never be able see past your interpretation of reality. You will without a doubt find some way of insisting that you are the persecuted and insulted minority.

[Goatman]

I also find that particular choice of biblical quotes to be offensive in your sig line. I wish it would be removed. Isolated like that it's not in context with the rest of the Psalm, and there is no chance that it can actually communicate the message that you likely hope that it will. The reality of it is that it immediately alienates anyone whom you might hope to communicate your message to.

[WB9YZU]

I also find that particular choice of biblical quotes to be offensive in your sig line. I wish it would be removed. Isolated like that it's not in context with the rest of the Psalm, and there is no chance that it can actually communicate the message that you likely hope that it will. The reality of it is that it immediately alienates anyone whom you might hope to communicate your message to.

There are a great many sigs which should be removed. The same could be said about Avatars. Where exactly do you draw the line?

Though I do not find Trail-Axe's sig offensive, I do believe that if his intent is to convert, putting only that part of the Psalm as his sig is not going to garner any support from this largely secular bunch.

How about these sigs ;)

Life is not a popularity contest.

Survival does not recognise equality.

Darwin never recognised sexual equality because in order for life to continue, one side must get screwed over, and over, and over.

[SBrad001]

There are a great many sigs which should be removed. The same could be said about Avatars. Where exactly do you draw the line?

Though I do not find Trail-Axe's sig offensive, I do believe that if his intent is to convert, putting only that part of the Psalm as his sig is not going to garner any support from this largely secular bunch.

How about these sigs ;)

Life is not a popularity contest.

Survival does not recognise equality.

Darwin never recognised sexual equality because in order for life to continue, one side must get screwed over, and over, and over.

Hey Ron, I think it's cool that you are standing up for Trail-Axe.

Part of the reason his sig line pisses me off, is because of prior threads and discussions this cat has been in on.

I am NOT asking for Trail-Axe to change his sig line, BUT I will give him crap for it. I am also NOT asking the powers that be to make him change his sig line either. BUT just as he has the right in my eyes to continue using that quote from the bible, I think I have right to also say it's a bigoted twit thing to have as one's sig line.

[WB9YZU]

Hey Ron, I think it's cool that you are standing up for Trail-Axe.

Part of the reason his sig line pisses me off, is because of prior threads and discussions this cat has been in on.

I am NOT asking for Trail-Axe to change his sig line, BUT I will give him crap for it. I am also NOT asking the powers that be to make him change his sig line either. BUT just as he has the right in my eyes to continue using that quote from the bible, I think I have right to also say it's a bigoted twit thing to have as one's sig line.

We all have to believe in something. Trail-Axe just seems to be very "enthusiastic" about his beliefs. The sig is a missquote as far as I can tell, but there are so many versions of the Bible, it's hard to say exactly.

I've read some of those threads, and think perhaps he is a member of the Jehovah's Wiitnesses and has to get this out of his system now and again before he explodes, or whatever happens to Witnesses when they fail to "witness".
//Hello// //Sorry, I'm not interested// //Thank you for the Pamplet// //Yes, I know I'm going to hell, have a nice day.// KABOOM! -lol.

Somehow though, and this may be partly my fault, this discussion turned to religion. As such, he is welcome to share his beliefs with all of us.

It's a fair cop to dissagree with his sig. My point of discussion was Goatman's "wish" that it be removed. Sometimes wishes turn into rules and regulations, and we don't want to have any of that nonsense.

[SBrad001]

We all have to believe in something. Trail-Axe just seems to be very "enthusiastic" about his beliefs. The sig is a missquote as far as I can tell, but there are so many versions of the Bible, it's hard to say exactly.

I've read some of those threads, and think perhaps he is a member of the Jehovah's Wiitnesses and has to get this out of his system now and again before he explodes, or whatever happens to Witnesses when they fail to "witness".
//Hello// //Sorry, I'm not interested// //Thank you for the Pamplet// //Yes, I know I'm going to hell, have a nice day.// KABOOM! -lol.

Somehow though, and this may be partly my fault, this discussion turned to religion. As such, he is welcome to share his beliefs with all of us.

It's a fair cop to dissagree with his sig. My point of discussion was Goatman's "wish" that it be removed. Sometimes wishes turn into rules and regulations, and we don't want to have any of that nonsense.

Well, the sig is not a misquote, I looked it up to be sure. Yes, I own a copy of the bible, but like any 'good' library I included it the fiction section of my collection.

And no, this isn't your fault. I believe it was me call out Trail-Axe on his first post in this thread that started this religious tangent.

Third, thanks for seeing that. Although I wish he would remove it too, I wish he would remove it because he stopped being a twit. Not because I asked him or because he was forced to change it. So yeah, we don't want any of that nonsense! :D

[Ray H]

Whats the big deal with Trail-axe's sig?
"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!".

It means nothing if you dont believe in god, at least it means nothing to me, Its a quote from a book of fiction.
What if he had a quote from" the Adventures of Tom Sawyer"? Would anyone care.
What if his quote went like this" Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Santa Clause." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!".
How about this? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Tooth Fairy." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
How about this? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Spiderman." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"

It would be laughable, I doubt anyone here believes in Santa, the Tooth Fair or Spiderman so why is no one offended by a quote stating you are an evil corrupt fool for not believing in Santa, molar hoe and Spidy but they get all outa sorts over god?

[GrimmJeeper]

"molar hoe" :roflmao:

[scottmcneal]

Hey grimm, love your AVATAR.. That fits you. I got to meet with you some day in azusa canyon..

GOD BLESS ONE AN ALL, yea you too :wave:

[SBrad001]

Whats the big deal with Trail-axe's sig?
"Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!".

It means nothing if you dont believe in god, at least it means nothing to me, Its a quote from a book of fiction.
What if he had a quote from" the Adventures of Tom Sawyer"? Would anyone care.
What if his quote went like this" Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Santa Clause." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!".
How about this? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Tooth Fairy." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"
How about this? "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no Spiderman." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"

It would be laughable, I doubt anyone here believes in Santa, the Tooth Fair or Spiderman so why is no one offended by a quote stating you are an evil corrupt fool for not believing in Santa, molar hoe and Spidy but they get all outa sorts over god?

Honestly Ray, it's because it's Trail-Axe and the intent behind the sig line is to demean and insult those that are atheists that he has spoken with before on this board.

So let him keep the sig line if he wants. That's fine by me.

[Ray H]

Honestly Ray, it's because it's Trail-Axe and the intent behind the sig line is to demean and insult those that are atheists that he has spoken with before on this board.

So let him keep the sig line if he wants. That's fine by me.

I get that, but so what if he doesnt like Atheists? Big deal.
Ever try to insult someone and they just dont care, it kind of loses its effectiveness.
On the other hand, I have gone off on someone here once for something small and insignificant that they said, so I understand where you're coming from.

[SBrad001]

I get that, but so what if he doesnt like Atheists? Big deal.
Ever try to insult someone and they just dont care, it kind of loses its effectiveness.
On the other hand, I have gone off on someone here once for something small and insignificant that they said, so I understand where you're coming from.


I won't lie, he irritates the crap out of me. Few people do. Maybe he should be proud. :D

For cryin' out loud though, I posted up that link the other day about the idiot suing the publishers of the bible because he was a moron. I loathe idiots like that, but does that mean I should roll over and play dead when some idiot decides he wants to insult or demean me? Hell no! I'm not going to stand around and do or say nothing.

And your argument of "what if he just doesn't like atheists?" That's same thing as saying "what if he just doesn't like blacks or mexicans or fill in the blank". I'm not asking him to love me, like me or even stand in the same room as me. He proclaim on the mountain top how much me looks down up atheists, BUT I'm still going to call him on it because it's the right thing for me to do. Maybe not the right thing for you, or anyone else, but it is the right thing for me to do.

[Ray H]

And your argument of "what if he just doesn't like atheists?" That's same thing as saying "what if he just doesn't like blacks or mexicans or fill in the blank".

That arument doesnt work on me very well because I think its acceptable to not like other people based on their color or heritage. As an example, the law can make me not discriminate but it can't make me like some one. Thats a personal decision that should be left to me. Its ok if a black person doesnt like me because Im white, just dont disqualify me from a job because Im white.
The moderators cant make people like me and the law cant make people like me. Sometimes I can make people like me and sometimes I cant.

I guess its as much your right to voice your opinions of him as it is for him to voice his opinions.

[Goatman]

It's a fair cop to dissagree with his sig. My point of discussion was Goatman's "wish" that it be removed. Sometimes wishes turn into rules and regulations, and we don't want to have any of that nonsense.

I only meant that I wish he would remove it, and quote something that could be more productive to his own position. It leaves way too much room for misunderstanding..........IMHO, and I'm one of the Christians in this discussion. I certainly wouldn't want any action taken about it, or plenty of other signitures.

I'm very glad that for the most part this has been a pretty decent discussion, by decent I don't mean valuable, I mean that folks have expressed some pointed views and the responses have been reasonably measured.

Oh, and Trail-Axe isn't a Jehovah's Witness. He said he went to Calvary Chapel Bible School, definitely not JH.

[8Mud]

All I really have to say is, if somebody yells duck and you stop to decide whether it is the Holy Ghost or the transsexual standing next to you, you are likely going to get beaned.:D

[red91]

I'm sitting here in Grand Junction and I don't feel any different. Must not be working.

Once again.......hasta



HEATHEN !!!!


By the way your next door neighbor just won the powerball lotto.

Hell YHWH was only off by about 50 ft.

Move to the left a little ya fat bastard.


:piratefla:

[jeeplas]

I looked it up to be sure. Yes, I own a copy of the bible, but like any 'good' library I included it the fiction section of my collection.



The new Testament of the Bible is an account of the life of Jesus. Check with even an athiest historian and they will tell you that the accounts really did happen. So it shouldn't be weather you believe in Jesus, but do you believe he is who he said he is.

[SBrad001]

The new Testament of the Bible is an account of the life of Jesus. Check with even an athiest historian and they will tell you that the accounts really did happen. So it shouldn't be weather you believe in Jesus, but do you believe he is who he said he is.

It was a joke. . .

[TRNDRVR]

HEATHEN !!!!Tell me something I don't know.

[Darky]

Honestly Ray, it's because it's Trail-Axe and the intent behind the sig line is to demean and insult those that are atheists that he has spoken with before on this board.

So let him keep the sig line if he wants. That's fine by me.
I'm not sure you can really judge his intent behind that verse. Thta kinda brings you into the same point as I hear made about Christians. Judge not lest ye be judged. We can judge the actions but not the heart/motive...:)

[SBrad001]

I'm not sure you can really judge his intent behind that verse. Thta kinda brings you into the same point as I hear made about Christians. Judge not lest ye be judged. We can judge the actions but not the heart/motive...:)

I'm going off past experience with him. . . .

If it were you or someone else, I probably wouldn't have an issue with it.

[Trail-Axe]

SBrad001,

I have changed my signature (and no one has pressured me to), so that you will know that I have considered your discomfort in light of the Word of God. For it is the goodness of God that leads people to Him (Romans 2:4).

Peace,
Trail-Axe

[TRNDRVR]

SBrad001,

I have changed my signature (and no one has pressured me to), so that you will know that I have considered your discomfort in light of the Word of God. For it is the goodness of God that leads people to Him (Romans 2:4).

Peace,
Trail-AxeWhat a guy!!!

Although I still think you fall into the catagory of "weak minded, drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con" born-again. :looser:


Now go sniveling to the BOD :rattle:

[Mudderoy]

Actually Jimmy Carter was the biggest mistake ever.

OMG! You are so right. He's a nice man but should never have been president. He continues to mess up even now. :(

The only things the President Bush "W" didn't do what I wanted was to do something about illegal immigration, specifically build that fence on the Mexico border, and stop spending all of our money!

Other than that he has amazed me that he has done what he felt was the right thing to do and to hell with the politics. It has hurt his party and his popularity.

I absolutely hate Clinton, as much as you Bush haters do, always have. But he did do one really cool thing. He used his job to get chicks. You gotta love a man that is true to his nature no matter who's watching. lol

[SBrad001]

SBrad001,
. . . I have considered your discomfort in light of the Word of God.

If that's what you want to think, go right ahead think what you like. But you and I both know why you had that sig line. ;)

[scottmcneal]

:jester: Hell, lets poke this pig one more time...:jester: I will get mail for this.. Sorry, but i'm just having fun with you all now.:cheers:........................Dam this thing has gone 17 pages.....

[DrMoab]

What a guy!!!

Although I still think you fall into the catagory of "weak minded, drug addicted, alcoholic, gay ex-con" born-again. :looser:

I'm curious why you seem to have such a problem with people who hit a bottom point in their lives?

Everyone has a bottom. For some it may be more severe then others but the plain and simple fact that someone wants to overcome burdens in their life should be a good thing. Personally I could care less if it comes through a belief in God, worshiping a rock or becoming a vegan and swearing off of milk.

The only problem I have is when someone uses their "born again-ness" to try and convert others.

BTW, at work we have two preachers who both run Evangelist bible churches. I asked them both about your thoughts that people like them must have hit rock bottom somewhere and both of them told me nope, they just found it to be the right way to go in life. Neither one of them are ex-drug addicts, sex abusers, alcoholics, or had any other vices...they just felt compelled to go that way.

[TRNDRVR]

The only problem I have is when someone uses their "born again-ness" to try and convert others.
Need you say more? :read:

[DrMoab]

Need you say more? :read:
Here in our own chapter, I can think of a couple of Mormon members who will turn their noses at others because they don't think someone who is not mormon is as good as they are. At the same time I can think of about 20 others who are just as religious and are not that way at all.

Same goes for the born again types. There are lots who will preach every chance they get but their are just as many who don't. You would never know this though because they do not wear it on their sleeve.

To lump them all into the same catagory just isn't fair.

If you want to change it to the preachy born againers...I am right their with you. I don't need anyone telling me how to live my life.