Bush Corporate Whore

[WVXJ]

I love how the reasons for the Iraq war keep changing....................now it's because, "terrorists want to get ahold of oil, and they have territorial ambitions".
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14560336/
Remember everyone saying this wasn't about oil???

Couldn't the same be said of psuedo-christian oil baron extremists in the whitehouse.........like the pot calling the kettle black. But basically, we invaded Iraq to secure the oil, to keep the 'terrorists' from getting ahold of it? What a spineless, lying, murderous, corporate whore. Way to go, way to hold accountable the ones responsible for 911. The only thing i see came out of 911 was airport security and gas prices through the roof! How could so many americans be so ignorant of world affairs and corporate greed, even when it's smacking them in the face, taking the lives of their children, and emptying their pockets.

[Lawn Cher']

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.

[bjoehandley]

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.


Me either, him or Bo.......er..Gore.

[5-90]

Honestly, I didn't either. I usually write in for Roy Henry Boehm and James Dennis Watson III - at least I know where their collective head's at...

"Spirit of '76 - Re-elect Nobody!"

As far as "territorial ambitions," look at the actions of the Palestinians since, oh, 1955 or so (Israel was founded in 1948 as I recall, and that factoid probably took a little while to sink in over there...) And, remember that pretty much the entire Muslim world thinks of us as "the Last Great Satan," to be either brought to heel or destroyed utterly.

And, it's worth remembering that pretty much the entire world runs on petrochemistry these days - lubricants, fuels, plastics - damn near everything uses some form of petroleum at some stage in its manufacture. I'm not saying this to justify our presence in Iraq, but it's a motivating factor. When the price of gasoline goes up, pretty much everything else goes up (except, of course, what we get paid at work...)

5-90

[TRNDRVR]

Corporate or otherwise, Bush is just a whore!

[Ronbo]

Remember everyone saying this wasn't about oil???


Not really.

?????????

[jrsxj98]

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.

Amen to that.

IMO he is just trying to fix what his daddy could do right the first time.

[Bent]

The scope of this war is larger than many are able to, or willing to comprehend. This war is just the tip of the iceberg, we either take action or roll over with the left, france and spain. This is for keeps, the enemy is real. They are not going to surrender, they aren't going to go away. They are NOT extremists, they are the true face of Islam, no matter what the "tolerance" crowd will tell you; how'd it work out for then in france during WWII.
:speepin:


I will agree with the person, though, who will point out that the F'ing politicians need to let the generals get the job done and keep the "cart behind the horse".

[goodburbon]

At least I can find a 30 rd clip for my .22 legally now. Every time I hear someone bitching about the president I think "at least its better than Kerry".

Honestly I don't care why we went to Iraq, but it was about time someone had the balls to stick it to someone who consistiently thumbbed his nose at the western world. So we're securing the oil now....and you're against that? You're also against higher oil prices.....be honest, you don't care what the man says, you are convinced he is a lying cheating ass and you will find fault with it no matter what he says.

I don't love the man, and am actually more of a libertarian but I am damn glad that it's not a democrat in office right now.

[mrrbby]

At least I can find a 30 rd clip for my .22 legally now. Every time I hear someone bitching about the president I think "at least its better than Kerry".

Honestly I don't care why we went to Iraq, but it was about time someone had the balls to stick it to someone who consistiently thumbbed his nose at the western world. So we're securing the oil now....and you're against that? You're also against higher oil prices.....be honest, you don't care what the man says, you are convinced he is a lying cheating ass and you will find fault with it no matter what he says.

I don't love the man, and am actually more of a libertarian but I am damn glad that it's not a democrat in office right now.

X2

[Thayer]

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

I found this documentary interesting.

[JohnX]

At least I can find a 30 rd clip for my .22 legally now.

Honestly I don't care why we went to Iraq, ...

First...Can you send me some clips? CA still sucks on gun laws.

Second...I have to agree. I don't care why we went, why we are there now, or why we will be there in the future. Mostly, I just want to feel safe. If that means we have to dispose of people like Hitler, Saddam, or Osama....I would be more than happy to pull the trigger myself.

[8Mud]

Whole lot of things going on at once.
The Muslim world is expanding. Middle easterners are migrating.
Muslims are spread out to the Phillipeans, down through Kenya, to the Atlantic in North Africa, up to England and half way through Western Russia.
The Social dynamics are complicated. I don't think you can sum it up with one liners.
The fundamentalist movement, is largely centered in Iran. But there are other hot spots.
Iraq had expansionists ambitions. We needed the oil and wanted to stop the cancer, at least in one sector. America is mighty, but it is doubtfull, they can cure all the worlds problems simultaniously.
The outcome of the whole thing is likely to be, you switching from a car to bicycle.
Worst case senerio, is you or your kids being policed by Religious Police, likely a bunch of goat herders who will slap you up side the head with a stick, if they catch you glancing at a woman.
I've been to Serbia, before Clinton and the bunch got through with there Police action, trying to save the Albania Muslims from ethnic cleansing.
Park your car unattended in Albania and it won't be there in the morning. Get drunk and pass out in Serbia and you'll likely find yourself waking up in a strange bed, with your wallet still in your pocket and a warm meal on the table at a total strangers house.
So we bombed the heck out of Serbia, to save the Albanains.
I don't particularly agree with a lot of things. Maybe they are just trying to do the best they can in a nearly impossible situation. Maybe there aren't any good solutions.

Iraq may just end up being called a minor low intensity conflict, that happened shortly before WW III in the history books.
A stop gap solution, that really didn't accomplish much.

I've been proved right in many of my observations and the probable long term outcomes. I hope I'm wrong this time.
Trying to accomodate the problem is one solution, trying to confront it is another. Trying the best way you can, to keep half the population from freezing to death next winter, because there is no heating oil is another.
Personnaly I see the the fascist parrallel. With Hitlers army trying to conquer the world, with a few like minded allies and the march of Muslim fundamentalism. I live a little nearer the center of the problem.
I guess one solution, would be to ignore it for as long as possible and hope it goes away.

[Root Moose]

I'm not going to nitpick on minor differences of opinions, but 8Mud is pretty on track I say.

[dyna]

Im by no means anti violence or anti war but whats the point anymore? When do we said we won? How many Americans are gonna die in the name of democracy in a country that dosent want it? one was to many IMO. How does one stop the "terrorist element" when 1/2 the countries population is amoungst them. Sheite? Sunni? who`s the bad guy. Its proven 911 had nothing to do with whats currently going on there. If its all about Muslims then ya better kill all the christians also cause some of them are gang member murdering pricks also. If its all about oil then were no better than them trying to manupilate the Gov and people to steal it. Democrat or Republican, who cares. In the name of US economy? then its time to change and shitcan big oil co`s. Ill ride my horse.

[CRASH]

How could so many americans be so ignorant of world affairs and corporate greed, even when it's smacking them in the face, taking the lives of their children, and emptying their pockets.


Has it ever occured to you that a lot of Americans are not at all ignorant, and actually agree with this administrations foreign policy?

Ditto 8mud.

[Glenn B]

then its time to change and shitcan big oil co`s. Ill ride my horse.

You do not have to wait for your pie in the sky wishes to come true. You can start riding your horse today, why wait. I hope you grow your own alfalfa too, otherwise it is likely trucked in... burning fuel. Oh, but wait, if you grow your own alfalfa, you would have to bale it by hand/horse, so as not to burn fuel. Then your food... where does it end? :farmer:

[8Mud]

Im by no means anti violence or anti war but whats the point anymore? When do we said we won? How many Americans are gonna die in the name of democracy in a country that dosent want it? one was to many IMO. How does one stop the "terrorist element" when 1/2 the countries population is amoungst them. Sheite? Sunni? who`s the bad guy. Its proven 911 had nothing to do with whats currently going on there. If its all about Muslims then ya better kill all the christians also cause some of them are gang member murdering pricks also. If its all about oil then were no better than them trying to manupilate the Gov and people to steal it. Democrat or Republican, who cares. In the name of US economy? then its time to change and shitcan big oil co`s. Ill ride my horse.

They stopped the Nazi, Japaness expansion in 5-6 years. And destroyed a lot of stuff doing it. It took almost 50 years to rebuild. 50-60,000 people died in one night in Dresden germany. Remember Hiroshima.
The Russian expansion, took most of forty years to stop, but was actually a lot less painfull.
Nobody actually won in Vietnam, but the North Vietnamese Army wasn't debilitated so much, it failed being a deterent to the Chinese. But they did kind of run out of steam and this likely saved a large junk of Southeast Asia. We probably left too soon, a junk of Southeast Asia had a period of near anarchy for awhile and 3 1/2 to 5 million people were killed in a 2-3 year period.
You can't fight a giant forest fire all at once, you try to contain it in stages. You could probably blow one out with an A bomb. The cure may be worse than the disease.
Just a couple of thoughts, Afganistan is on one border of Iran, Iraq is on the other. Both were problems and at the same time, Iran is somewhat contained temporarily. The whole process is likely to be long and painfull and may not succeed anyway.

[XJCreeper]

Whole lot of things going on at once.
The Muslim world is expanding. Middle easterners are migrating.
Muslims are spread out to the Phillipeans, down through Kenya, to the Atlantic in North Africa, up to England and half way through Western Russia.
The Social dynamics are complicated. I don't think you can sum it up with one liners.
The fundamentalist movement, is largely centered in Iran. But there are other hot spots.
Iraq had expansionists ambitions. We needed the oil and wanted to stop the cancer, at least in one sector. America is mighty, but it is doubtfull, they can cure all the worlds problems simultaniously.
The outcome of the whole thing is likely to be, you switching from a car to bicycle.
Worst case senerio, is you or your kids being policed by Religious Police, likely a bunch of goat herders who will slap you up side the head with a stick, if they catch you glancing at a woman.
I've been to Serbia, before Clinton and the bunch got through with there Police action, trying to save the Albania Muslims from ethnic cleansing.
Park your car unattended in Albania and it won't be there in the morning. Get drunk and pass out in Serbia and you'll likely find yourself waking up in a strange bed, with your wallet still in your pocket and a warm meal on the table at a total strangers house.
So we bombed the heck out of Serbia, to save the Albanains.
I don't particularly agree with a lot of things. Maybe they are just trying to do the best they can in a nearly impossible situation. Maybe there aren't any good solutions.

Iraq may just end up being called a minor low intensity conflict, that happened shortly before WW III in the history books.
A stop gap solution, that really didn't accomplish much.

I've been proved right in many of my observations and the probable long term outcomes. I hope I'm wrong this time.
Trying to accomodate the problem is one solution, trying to confront it is another. Trying the best way you can, to keep half the population from freezing to death next winter, because there is no heating oil is another.
Personnaly I see the the fascist parrallel. With Hitlers army trying to conquer the world, with a few like minded allies and the march of Muslim fundamentalism. I live a little nearer the center of the problem.
I guess one solution, would be to ignore it for as long as possible and hope it goes away.

Well said. To say it's just about the oil and nobody said so is foolish and suicidal. It's about power and the reality is oil runs the world. The Arab's think they can conquer us westerners and convert the world to Islam using thier oil as a tool.

I'm sure they'd cut all of our heads off regardless of your party affiliation. Many heads of liberals have already rolled trying to understand the facists in the middle east. Why don't you go over there so you can get some real perspective and report back to us. If you come back alive I'm sure you'd feel different.

To bad alot of westerners here in America would gladly trade their values, lifestyle, and beliefs for a gulp of oil. As a group we have no nuts. The parrallel to Hitler is very apparent to me too. Why open your eyes while the oil still trickles? When it gets cut off and an explosion goes off in you town I pray you'll feel different. It's gonna be a fight for your life and we'll need you when you get clued in.

Doesn't genocide of the Jews sound familiar. Who's next? The Polish, the Czech's and then the English? Read you history and wake up or you'll be damned when it gets repeated with a bad result for all of us. It is about the oil, genocide, and world conquest. Hitler went after the oil in the first part of WWII. The main difference here is the oil has already been secured by the facists in thier homelands and Russia rather than Austria is making the weapons for this war against us all.

America is out of oil in the our homeland, our Army runs on oil and our supply for our Army looks weak. Our people aren't united and as far as the Arabs are concerned we are ripe for the killing. Wake up you knee jerk liberal.

We need to bring back Teddy Roosevelt. At least he wouldn't have given the Panama canal away. I bet he'd be kicking more but on these facists than Bush! I bet you'd really hate that. The "can't we all get along" mentality is gonna be the end for us if most of us keep this crap up.

[djblade311]

agree with 8mud

The media can easily sway the gullible public who don't understand everything that is happening. Yes, you can pick out pieces that are negative and throw out the positive...very easily.

And it always seems like someone always has something to complain about when it could be much worse. "Bush said this" and "Bush did that"... War is hell. War is not supposed to be a picnic with flowers and butterflies. BUsh said in the very beginning that Terrorism will not be the only crime, but those that harbor terrorism will also be condemned. Granted Saddam was always on the sh*t list and it was a convenient time...

[Geepfreak]

Did someone say Bush, and Whore?







edit: I just read the whole thread, and it was not what I was hoping for..:D

[XJCreeper]

Im by no means anti violence or anti war but whats the point anymore? When do we said we won? How many Americans are gonna die in the name of democracy in a country that dosent want it? one was to many IMO. How does one stop the "terrorist element" when 1/2 the countries population is amoungst them. Sheite? Sunni? who`s the bad guy. Its proven 911 had nothing to do with whats currently going on there. If its all about Muslims then ya better kill all the christians also cause some of them are gang member murdering pricks also. If its all about oil then were no better than them trying to manupilate the Gov and people to steal it. Democrat or Republican, who cares. In the name of US economy? then its time to change and shitcan big oil co`s. Ill ride my horse.
Believe it or not we have been at war a long time. In war you either win or lose. When folks like you quit rooting for loosing then we may start winning. Good luck out riding that radical muslim on your imaginary horse when he comes to cut you head off in his Toyota pickup.

[thebrick]

Didn't someone once say that the two things you should not discuss in public are politics and religion...

Well, can't say I agree with all of you guys on everything, but yeah...We need TR back...or someone like him.

He got crap done...he did thing for the people, by the people...and he did stuff proactively...not reactively (knee-jerking) like most all politicians do today.

To quote my dad..."They're all crooks...Nixon just got caught..."

[Geepfreak]

We need TR back...or someone like him.


I think he died a few years back..:dunno:

[XJCreeper]

I think he died a few years back..:dunno:

You mean Ronald Reagan
http://oregonstate.edu/%7Esheahanl/reagan.html

[Geepfreak]

You mean Ronald Reagan
http://oregonstate.edu/%7Esheahanl/reagan.html
That would be RR not TR...:D

[XJCreeper]

That would be RR not TR...:D
Being they are both dead who'd you recommend we elect to be "Commander in Chief" of this war?

[Bent]

You do not have to wait for your pie in the sky wishes to come true. You can start riding your horse today, why wait. I hope you grow your own alfalfa too, otherwise it is likely trucked in... burning fuel. Oh, but wait, if you grow your own alfalfa, you would have to bale it by hand/horse, so as not to burn fuel. Then your food... where does it end? :farmer:

Horse shit in piles 15' deep everywhere. Who's going sweep I-5 after the morning commute?

:sad1:

[Art Triggs]

A good friend of mine sent me a post from a lawyer in Calif. Thought provoking for sure and adds some perspective to the problem....


from Raymond S. Kraft, a California lawyer, that sheds some
much needed light on the Big Picture!

Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and
hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more
than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America
for food and war materials.

The US was in an isolationist, pacifist, mood, and most Americans and
Congress wanted nothing to do with the European war, or the Asian war. Then
along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress
unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which
had not attacked us but who did declare war on us. It was a dicey thing.
We had few allies.

France was not an ally, the Vichy government of France aligned with its
German occupiers. Germany was not an ally, it was an enemy, and Hitler
intended to set up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally,
it was intent on owning and controlling all of Asia. Japan and Germany had
long-term ideas of invading Canada and Mexico, and then the United States
over the north and south borders, after they had settled control of Asia and
Europe.

America's allies then were England, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and Russia,
and that was about it.

All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was all
ready under the Nazi heel.

America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of it's
military after WWI and throughout the depression, at the outbreak of WWII,
there were army units training with broomsticks over their shoulders because
they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on
the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our Navy had
just been sunk or badly damaged by Japan's sneak attack on our naval base at
Pearl Harbor.

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600
million in gold bullion in the Bank of England that was the property of
Belgium and was given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when
Belgium was overrun by Hitler. Actually, Belgium surrendered in one day,
because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed
Brussels into rubble the next day anyway just to prove they could. Britain
has been holding out for two years already in the
face of staggering shipping losses and the near decimation of its air force
in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only
because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively
minor threat that could be dealt with later and turning his attention to
Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse in the late
summer of 1940.

Russia helped save America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two
years until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.
Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and
Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but more
than a million soldiers. More than a million.

Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his
entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have
won the war.

I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often 'dicey'
things..... and we are at another one in our history now.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and
may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical
weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing
so.

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs. They
believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form
of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe,
then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed,
enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, - destroy
Israel, - purge the world of Jews. This is what they come right out and
say..... even though our news media doesn't tell us of this fact.

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East, for the most part not a
hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its
Reformation today, but it is not yet known which will win - the Inquisition
or the Reformation.

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihads, will control the
Middle East, and the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies,
the techno industrial economies, will be at the mercy of OPEC, not an OPEC
dominated by the well educated and rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC
dominated by the Jihadis. You want gas in your car? You want heating oil
next winter? You want
jobs? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the
Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe
that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with
the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century and into the 21st,
then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a
moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the
Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda, the Islamic
terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it
nowhere. And we cannot do it everywhere at once. We have
created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our
choosing, in Iraq. Not in New York, not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but
in Iraq, where we did and are doing two very important things.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly
involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively
supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.
Saddam is, or was, a 'weapon of mass destruction' in his own person, who is
responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two
million Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic
terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad guys
there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else.
We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which
will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and
an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East
for as long as it is needed.

World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with
a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with
the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before
America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 - a 17 year war - and was
followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get
those countries reconstructed and running on their own again ... a 27 year
war.

World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full
year's GDP - adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars,
WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000
still missing in action.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion (U.S. GDP in 2006 =
13.04 trillion dollars, which means that the IRAQ war has cost the U.S.
approximately 12.5% of a full years GDP), which is roughly what 9/11 cost
New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly
2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihadists snuffed out in New York City on
9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been
unimaginably greater - a world now dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

Americans have a short attention span, now, conditioned I suppose by 60
minute TV shows and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes
bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.

The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism
until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away on its own. It
will not go away if we ignore it.

If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have
an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help
modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the
clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the
barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in
this ancient and never ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the
barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless we prevent them. Or
somebody does. We have four options:

1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be
as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran
claims it is).

3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle
East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in
America.

4. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is
more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated
France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will be more
dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier then.

Yes, the Jihadis say that they look forward to an Islamic America. If you
oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or
grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the
Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

We can be defeatist peace activists as anti war types seem to be, and
concede, surrender, to the Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes to win
this war against them.

The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural
clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and
civilization should be like, and the most determined always, win.

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists
always lose, because the anti-pacifists simply kill them. Think about that
statement for a minute and you will undoubtedly come to the realization of
its truth.

In the 20th century, it was Western democracy vs. communism, and before that
Western democracy vs. Nazism, and before that Western democracy vs. German
Imperialism. Western democracy won, three times, but it wasn't cheap, fun,
nice, easy, or quick. Indeed, the wars against German Imperialism (WWI),
Nazi Imperialism (WWII), and communist imperialism (the 40 year Cold War
that included the Vietnam Battle, commonly called the Vietnam War, but
itself a major battle in a larger war) covered almost the entire century.

The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo
Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or
most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades
away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance and Jihad,
or until Western Civilization gives into the Jihad.

It will take time. It will not go with no hitches. This is not like a TV
show.

Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little
history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down
in 1989. Forty two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th
century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.

World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and
the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. WWII resulted in the death
of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people,
depending on which estimates you accept.

The US has taken a little more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The US took more
than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6th, 1944, the first day
of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII the
US averaged 2,000 KIA a week for four years. Most of the
individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has
done so far. While this is not a pleasant statistic, the stakes are at
least as high . . . a world dominated by representative governments with
civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms ..... or a world dominated
by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and
the Sharia (Islamic law).

I do not understand why the American 'Left' simply does not grasp this. They
favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for
Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else.

300,000 Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem? The US
population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply 300,000 by
twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000 American bodies in mass
graves in America because of George Bush? Would you hope for
another country to help liberate America? "Peace Activists" always seem to
demonstrate where it's safe for them to do so ....... in America. Why
don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North
Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most?

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins,
wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the
liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

If the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. Everywhere the Jihad wins,
it is the death of Liberalism. And American Liberals just don't get it.

Raymond S. Kraft is a writer and lawyer living in Northern California.
Please consider passing along copies of this to students in high school,
college and university as it contains information about the American past
that is very meaningful TODAY - - history about America that very likely is
completely unknown by them (and their instructors, too). By being denied the
facts and truth of our history, they are at a decided disadvantage when it
comes to reasoning and thinking through the issues of today. They are prime
targets for misinformation campaigns beamed at enlisting them in causes and
beliefs that are special interest agenda driven.

Just saying it does provoke some thought about this whole mess.......

[Ben H]

I think "corporate whore" is the wrong phrase. I think it is down right opportunistic and good looking out that we secure oil now. Of course there is underlying reasons for everything that our government does. Securing oil for the U.S. is just good looking out.
To me it is no different than blaming Bush for the hurricanes last season, or blaming him for 9-11. That is just plain ol stupid. I am tired of the Bush bashers out there, because if it is not Bush then it will be the next guy and the next after that.
I think that when the liberals and the media, rags on our leaders it shows the rest of the world, and the radicals we are fighting that our country is weak, and is on a path with no good future in sight.
Whether you like it or not we are at war, and we need to pony up and stop the bitching about the job performance of our president.

[Captain Ron]

No lack of misinformation to give to the highschoolers in that little treatsie.

--ron

[RichP]

No lack of misinformation to give to the highschoolers in that little treatsie.

--ron

Noticed that too didja...

[5-90]

A good friend of mine sent me a post from a lawyer in Calif. Thought provoking for sure and adds some perspective to the problem....


Yes, I'd have to say that piece provokes though (granted, mostly thoughts I'd already entertained over the last 10-15 years - at least...) but maybe it can serve as a "wake-up call" for the various fence-sitters...

Of course, until it gets personal, I don't think the peaceniks will begin to understand. I'd like to meet a truck buck pacifist someday, have him affirm his views, and then punch him in the nose. When he doubles back, remind him that "violence never solves anything."

Repeat until he begins to understand that, sometimes, violence damn sure does settle an issue! Just ask the Great Auk, the Passenger Pigeon, the Romans, or pretty much any American Indian scratching out life on the Res. I'd say that violence settled all their acounts rather well - and this becomes a case where the other side can only understand violence directed at them - no negotiations are possible.

This will be, as I have said, a war of annihilation. Neither side can be totally secure by any means except the total eradication of the opposing force - whether we eliminate all of the Islamic fundamentalists (the "Inquisition" - with bin Laden as Torquemada...) or they kill all of us. "Reforming" us into an Islamic nation is something that I don't think will fly - there will be enough of us who will resist to make such occupation unprofitable, so they'll probably just kill everyone out of hand, and take our resources (it's what I'd do - there's going to be too much resistance if we "occupy and pacify" over there. That's what's happening now - either eliminate the "radical" elements in toto, or just pull out, lob a couple of neutron bombs over there, and send the MEF in to paint the stripes in our newest parking lot in six months...)

The optomist in me wants to say that the Middle East can be "reformed" and "pacified," but the realist in me knows that this will only be accomplished - if at all! - with a horrible price to be paid in blood. Ours and theirs.

However, another point was also made previously - that our "politicans" have become modern-day nutless wonders, and are actually (I think) afraid to prosecute this as a war, much less as an unlimited war in the fashion of the enemy. We can't fight a war worried about "public opinion" or with our hands tied by the "UN World Court" - they're not worried about it, which governs (or fails to govern...) their actions.

As I'd mentioned before, we're trying to fight according to the Law of Land Warfare, the Geneva Conventions, and the Hague Accords. However, what we seem to forget is that those only apply if one organised national fighting force is fighting another organised national fighting force - which our current enemy isn't. They're civilians motivated by religion - not patriotism, not nationalism, and not expansionism. We're talking "pie in the sky" here, they already know they're not going to get ahead in this world, so they're trying to secure a place in the next.

Until "higher-higher" begins to internalise this fact, we're going to end up losing. End Of Story. We fight by our rules, they'll fight by their rules, and their rules will allow more action to be taken. Until we take the fight to them, using their rules, we're going to be fighting a war of "reaction" (rather than "action,") and that's little more than a sure way to lose. We cannot take the initiative away from the enemy until we accept and use their rules against them.

As an aside, I've just washed his moniker through Google, and got some interesting results. Should make for some fun reading...

5-90

[planefixer]

Everybody bitching about Bush now knows how MANY people felt when that worthless POS Clinton was in office.Clinton was too busy covering his ass from one scandal to the next to be any kind of effective president- but he was real good at taking credit for policies that RR put into place.I notice all these Democrat politicians and the like blaming Bush for everything they can, yet they OFFER NO SOLUTIONS/ALTERNATIVES.So, just who really are the "ignorant" ones??? And to those that think this is a war for oil,how come we're paying over $3.00/gal??

My $ .02

[Glenn B]

Everybody bitching about Bush now knows how MANY people felt when that worthless POS Clinton was in office.Clinton was too busy covering his ass from one scandal to the next to be any kind of effective president- but he was real good at taking credit for policies that RR put into place.I notice all these Democrat politicians and the like blaming Bush for everything they can, yet they OFFER NO SOLUTIONS/ALTERNATIVES.So, just who really are the "ignorant" ones???

My $ .02
They do not have solutions, that is why. They would rather hold hands and have group hugs.

They are also responsible for the train of thought "When America bleeds, they run". Yeah, thanks Clinton. The Islam fanatics perhaps thought we would continue on with that, they miscalculated grossly. Yet the left seems to want to run. Go figgure.

I say get the press out of the war zone and let the Military do their job, public opinion be damned. Do it and do it right.

[RyanM]

should we(you and me) be worried, or at what point do we. I remember sayin the same things 2 years ago. is it getting worse? but like 8mud said, it may be a slow downfall.

[mdl]

What I don't understand is why people want to leave these fawkers alone. I can't stand sharing the world with them. I so support this war. If we get oil out of it that's a friggin bonus. It's a war, and people are killed. My friend was killed in Iraq, one of my friends retired after serving in the Air force over there, and I have another friend who is currently a Marine awaiting Iraq. My air force friend would go back if they would let him fly again, and my Marine friend want's to go so bad he practically has a boner. I think the world will be better off with ever terrorist dead. I don't believe the "inocent civilians" are so inocent. Weren't they the ones shooting guns off into the air in celebration after sept 11th.


I wish I had the balls to go fight the war that my friends have and are awaiting to fight.

I have no legitimate issues with bush. Yes he is a dumbass but so am I.

[TRNDRVR]

Bush is just a whore!I thought I settled this already?

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif

[WVXJ]

-The extremist muslims are not 'mostly' in Iran. Iran is actually one of the more advanced muslim societys, which is not something the 'conservative extremists' are much into. But if one wants a 'holy war', one should call it such and not mix it up with ideas most of us respect, like democracy or the bringing to justice those responsible for 911.
-The muslim religion hasn't fanned out around the world anymore than the christian missionaries have. Sally Struthers and Pat Robertson can attest to that. Take a look at christian corporate domination of Africa and its resources. Remember Slobodan Milosovic, theres a good christian soldier!
-Oil does not only come from the ground folks! It can come from lots of sources and is usually less of a pollutant when not derived from fossil fuels. Therefore we needn't cheer for murdering innocents just to secure oil. Its secured.
-Equating pipsqueak Saddam with Hitler is dumb. Saddam would be defeated even by France.
-Not all liberals are pacifists. Not all those against unprovoked murder are antiwar, liberal, or pacifist.
-Bush is an idiot, yes we all may be, but i want a president who can atleast fool people into believing he's not.

[mdl]

Therefore we needn't cheer for murdering innocents just to secure oil. Its secured.



"Innocents"... :roflmao:

[Glenn B]

-Bush is an idiot, yes we all may be, but i want a president who can atleast fool people into believing he's not.

So I assume you are at the forefront of getting such a President elected. Please do tell, will he be from WV too? LOL. That would be a good one.

[Ronbo]

Train bombing plot suprises Germany

"The planned attack here stunned Germans who thought the country's vehement opposition to the Iraq war would insulate it from becoming a terror target"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060822/ap_on_re_eu/germany_terror_connections_1&printer=1

Whoda thunk it ?

[Ramsey]

I thought he did it for the nookie.

[planefixer]

-The extremist muslims are not 'mostly' in Iran. Iran is actually one of the more advanced muslim societys, which is not something the 'conservative extremists' are much into. But if one wants a 'holy war', one should call it such and not mix it up with ideas most of us respect, like democracy or the bringing to justice those responsible for 911.
-The muslim religion hasn't fanned out around the world anymore than the christian missionaries have. Sally Struthers and Pat Robertson can attest to that. Take a look at christian corporate domination of Africa and its resources. Remember Slobodan Milosovic, theres a good christian soldier!
-Oil does not only come from the ground folks! It can come from lots of sources and is usually less of a pollutant when not derived from fossil fuels. Therefore we needn't cheer for murdering innocents just to secure oil. Its secured.
-Equating pipsqueak Saddam with Hitler is dumb. Saddam would be defeated even by France.
-Not all liberals are pacifists. Not all those against unprovoked murder are antiwar, liberal, or pacifist.
-Bush is an idiot, yes we all may be, but i want a president who can atleast fool people into believing he's not.


:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Just out of curiosity....Are you currently a college/university student???Sounds like you were spoonfed a bunch of lefty bullshit and ate every bite.

[WVXJ]

I wouldn't put it past John D. Rock, Glenn, it's not that much of a stretch. And actually i would prefer him to Hillary on the dem ticket anyway, but lots of people cant get over that last name, Rockefeller. But no, i don't work for him.

[WVXJ]

Planefixer, you on the other hand, sound very well read. And no, not currently a college student. But i keep abreast. (hee hee, i said breast)

[WVXJ]

And Ronbo,
I thought Germany was against the war because of a conflict of interest. Weren't they selling chit to Saddam that they weren't supposed to??? Anyway, I'm sure the uber christian crusaders they've just voted in are all giddy because of it.

[8Mud]

Train bombing plot suprises Germany

"The planned attack here stunned Germans who thought the country's vehement opposition to the Iraq war would insulate it from becoming a terror target"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060822/ap_on_re_eu/germany_terror_connections_1&printer=1

Whoda thunk it ?

A lasting remnant of the last Geman president. He was chummy with Chirac (sp?). And both beleive there liberal democracies, where so strong in culture they could assimilate anything. While at the same time, retaining there generally racist outlook on things (some people are just born superior). The new immigrants would be so thrilled to even be partially included, they would gladly submit to any injustice.
The riots in France and the numbers of extremists smoked out of the woodwork in Germany, proved there philosophies largely wishfull thinking.
A good place to hide out is in a high tolerance, liberal democracy. Exactly where many of the 911 extremists came from, at least as a stop over point.
Can you really picture an extremist western male (or female), blending in and hiding out in Iran?
A couple of weeks after 911, the German police raided 5000 Muslim households in one night. I don't remember much noise about profiling even from the far left of German politics. They may be tolerant, but they are still efficient.
The new German President, is a moderate to slightly right type. But has to deal with a largely liberal house.
You can't lump Muslims into one basket and it gets real hard trying to seperate the wheat from the chaff on occasion. Many are progressives, most are moderates, to busy putting food on the table and feeding the kids to cause much grief. I often get the feeling the extremists would like nothing better than a large Muslim (in general) racist backlash from western society. It could help there cause.
If you want to get a handle on the direction things are going, look at the budget for the military, especially in the moderate and liberal democracies.
The trends make me nervous.
Is it possible Bush and the bunch just may be slightly ahead of the curve. And even if the next US president is a Democrate ( no matter what noises they make) may generally carry on, in largely the same direction. Though they are likely to have better press and get away with more. :)

[Ben H]

-The extremist muslims are not 'mostly' in Iran. Iran is actually one of the more advanced muslim societys, which is not something the 'conservative extremists' are much into. But if one wants a 'holy war', one should call it such and not mix it up with ideas most of us respect, like democracy or the bringing to justice those responsible for 911.
-The muslim religion hasn't fanned out around the world anymore than the christian missionaries have. Sally Struthers and Pat Robertson can attest to that. Take a look at christian corporate domination of Africa and its resources. Remember Slobodan Milosovic, theres a good christian soldier!
-Oil does not only come from the ground folks! It can come from lots of sources and is usually less of a pollutant when not derived from fossil fuels. Therefore we needn't cheer for murdering innocents just to secure oil. Its secured.
-Equating pipsqueak Saddam with Hitler is dumb. Saddam would be defeated even by France.
-Not all liberals are pacifists. Not all those against unprovoked murder are antiwar, liberal, or pacifist.
-Bush is an idiot, yes we all may be, but i want a president who can atleast fool people into believing he's not.


WTF! I have seen the acts of that Serbian POS. France take out Saddam! Your an idiot! Extremist most likely not in Iran? Are you on crack?

[WVXJ]

Hey Ben,
the taliban in Afghanistan, they're the conservatives.
in Iran, women vote, they don't have to wear burkas, they even hold jobs.
And no, i don't smoke crack, but the president did. And i think alot of his uninformed supporters do/did as well.
And Ben, that bit about Milosovic, thats called sarcasm, and you, my friend, are a genius.

[WVXJ]

And Ben,
France has a much better military than Saddam.................
He's only been sanctioned for the past twenty years, but before that, our buddy rumsfeld was arming him to the teeth...........

[Ronbo]

And Ronbo,
I thought Germany was against the war because of a conflict of interest. Weren't they selling chit to Saddam that they weren't supposed to???


Either that or buying Iraqi oil against UN sanctions via the backroads of Turkey. Just like Russia and France. :shhh:

[Ben H]

Hey pal what part of genocide do you find sarcastic? And how in the hell do you know so much about where the our enemies are located? Who's side of this war are you on? Are you compassionate to terror, because it sure sounds to me that you are? And no I am not a genius, but I am an American.

[Ben H]

And Ben,
France has a much better military than Saddam.................
He's only been sanctioned for the past twenty years, but before that, our buddy rumsfeld was arming him to the teeth...........

I know France pre Vietnam might have, but then again we are talking about France today correct?

[Ben H]

Saddam 20 years ago was a good customer. Nothing wrong with exports is there? He invaded a little country called Kuwait, do you remember that?

[karstic]

-
-Oil does not only come from the ground folks! It can come from lots of sources and is usually less of a pollutant when not derived from fossil fuels.

Could you expand on this one a little? Something is wrong with your science. Where else do we get oil from? I haven't seen any drilling platforms in the sky?

[WVXJ]

Ben buddy,
go back and read the whole thread............................especially the posts by war supporters calling for the eradication of islam and anyone who stands in front of american corporate interests. And ben, before you go calling someone 'compassionate to terror', i would educate myself, cause that will get you into trouble. In fact, by the definition of terrorist, the CIA probably fits better than anyone. And lets not forget most of these fellas have been trained and armed by the U.S. Creating an illegitimate war and killing thousands of innocents, in the name of greed is terrorism. And of course, i too am an american, and therefore look out for my interests. Creating an unjust "holy war" is not in our interest.

[WVXJ]

the diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil. Soybeans also produce oil suitable for the purposes. Fuels in general, can be made from lots of stuff, from hemp to cow manure.....................
Willie Nelsons new bioWillie stuff is a step in the right direction............and it helps AMERICAN farmers, not ceo fatcats

[Ben H]

There were ?'s behind most of my statements up above, just answer a few of them please. Maybe start with this ? : where do you get your information on where terrorist are?

[RichP]

Could you expand on this one a little? Something is wrong with your science. Where else do we get oil from? I haven't seen any drilling platforms in the sky?

Oort clouds are a possible supply :D
C-H-O-N and we end world hunger too :D

[redhawk]

I find great humor in all the views of why we are in Iraq. Some believe oil, some believe it's because of an assasination attemp on the first Bush, some believe it's to take over territory, some believe it's to stop terrorism..............Maybe none are right, maybe all are right. Wars have been fought over much less. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

All the belly ache'n isn't going to solve anything. Go picket against the war I don't care. Might throw eggs or rotten maters or something at you but it's all in fun. Here's and idea. How about getting off your butt and going out and cutting the lawn for the wife of a serviceman, how about sponsoring a soccer team for the kids of the men and women fighting. I get sick and tired of hearing about how "we hate the war but support the soldiers". BS, support them with your actions and not your mouth or some internet forum that is and should be a past time rather than a point of political activism. Squeeze open your wallet and send calling cards to a soldier or the family of one. Heck they've got families spread all across the country just like the rest of us. Whiners...............can't stand a whiner. Kinda reminds me of raising hogs. All they do is make a bunch of racket, eat and crap all over everything until one day the butcher gets ahold of them and they finally have a use. The whiners are a bit different in that they meet all the criteria except finally being of use one day.

[Root Moose]

If you want to get a handle on the direction things are going, look at the budget for the military, especially in the moderate and liberal democracies.
The trends make me nervous.

Is nervous is the right word? Perhaps optimistic that they won't get caught with their collective pants down? At this point the fuse has been lit.

Is it possible Bush and the bunch just may be slightly ahead of the curve. And even if the next US president is a Democrate ( no matter what noises they make) may generally carry on, in largely the same direction. Though they are likely to have better press and get away with more. :)

Bingo.

I think that McCain may be quite saleable on the Rep side, especially to non-lefty Dems. The Dems are done if HC gets the nod me thinks. But then I'm an outsider and don't pretend to understand US politics beyond what I see on US TV and CDN media.

[WVXJ]

O.k. Ben,
i get my info from lots of sources. One of them happens to be people. Exchange students, natural born americans whose parents fled, we even have some islamic royalty floating around the states.......if you can believe that. See some people aren't blindly patriotic racist bigots, and can actually have conversations and even 'care' about other people that don't look and talk just like we do. Some people even learn to 'get along with others', instead of spouting the latest bigotted spiel from corporate funded news sources and sounding tough on the internet. Believe it or not, you can get news and views that differ from your own on that handy dandy computer your sitting at................not just for jeeps anymore! People also write books, PBS has good programming (although not usually involving jeep lifting) hell, even wealthy americans who have the opportunity to travel see things a little differently than the fear tactics that fuel the fires here in the good ole U.S. of A. People are people, by and large, they don't want to be ruled under brutal dictatorships or religious zealots, however the media seems to want the american public to believe so, for some reason..................

[WVXJ]

here's one for starters,
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9579
and its even American!!!
zmag has a huge list of accomplished supporters and contributors. A good place to learn.

[flexjay87]

if i agree with everybody, would i be considered a moderate, or an independent. either way i just want to sit on the fence and not take a stand. i think someone else overseas should make all of our decisions, i'm very scared, kofi annan is my hero. "shhhh, be very quiet, i'm hunting wabbits"

[Ben H]

here's one for starters,
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9579
and its even American!!!
zmag has a huge list of accomplished supporters and contributors. A good place to learn.

Thanks a lot for showing me this sight. It has given me insight on to where you get your bullshit. I did a quick browse through that site and couldnt find anything about it accredited. Just more "radical leftist, can't we just talk about it" crap.

[WVXJ]

Some people just need a little help, thats all................
go to www.zmag.org then click on 'go to znet'
on the left side of the page, you will see 'writers' you can go there and get a bio on every contributor to the mag.
Most of the contributors are educators, including some from the best schools in the country, i.e.,Harvard, MIT, Cal Poly, etc., who hold some world renowned awards, Nobels, Kyoto prize for science, etc., but the neat thing is, there are some from all over the world, not just America! Go back and do some readin' sonny boy, you might learn somethin'.
http://www.zmag.org/Zbios.htm

---but tin' uhgin' probly juz' liberal poooosies wit dat reeedin' n' ritin' n' shee-uht!!!

[WVXJ]

some more good readin' at www.thenation.com
and for some laughs and sarcasm, www.whitehouse.org

[Ben H]

Do you mean to tell me, that if someone went to Harvard, you will believe what say? Do you believe everything you read? That is a straight up Liberal magazine and web sight, totally biased in all of its articles, and completely authored by Liberals all around the world. Yes it is good reedn fur us hilblis tiffin we chozen to waste r time.

I am still just fuming about your Slobodan Milosovic comment. I don't know why I let people like you piss me off.

[WVXJ]

oh come on' I'm a hillbilly too. And whitehouse.org is funny, i don't care who ya are!!!
But no, i don't believe everything i read. And, if you ask me, Harvard is about money and nepotism, but they still have some learned fellas teaching. But seriously, there are folks in the world who compile info on history and diplomacy like some people do jeeps and guns, it's not necessarily the smartest move to dismiss them ALL as 'liberal' crazies. Nor would it be the smartest move to believe FAUX news or Time magazine unquestionably either, would it???

[WVXJ]

War is hell, isn't that what everyone says. And if you believe that, and are disgusted by what milosovic did to those muslims, why would one beat the drum for more................

[aaronh]

At least I can find a 30 rd clip for my .22 legally now. Every time I hear someone bitching about the president I think "at least its better than Kerry".

Honestly I don't care why we went to Iraq, but it was about time someone had the balls to stick it to someone who consistiently thumbbed his nose at the western world. So we're securing the oil now....and you're against that? You're also against higher oil prices.....be honest, you don't care what the man says, you are convinced he is a lying cheating ass and you will find fault with it no matter what he says.

I don't love the man, and am actually more of a libertarian but I am damn glad that it's not a democrat in office right now.
10-4, AMEN

[XJCreeper]

War is hell, isn't that what everyone says. And if you believe that, and are disgusted by what milosovic did to those muslims, why would one beat the drum for more................
An what about what the peace loving muslims did to these men? Clink the link below and give us you honest opinion. Are these folks among your friends or would you regard them dangerous to you?
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/downloads/cj_34947.wmv
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/reynalds/04/reynalds071704.htm
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/newswire/news2004/0904/092104-armstrong-beheading.htm
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/reynalds/04/reynalds062304.htm

[xjblue]

Equating pipsqueak Saddam with Hitler is dumb.

PBS has good programming (although not usually involving jeep lifting)

Yes PBS has great programming (also enjoy History channel and simular). I particularly enjoyed the well researched documentary examining not the concept of equating Saddam with Hitler but the historical facts about the direct connections between Nazi Germany and Saddams rise to power. If you missed it may I recommend you try and catch it next time it airs and take good notes, there may be a pop quiz.


In fact, by the definition of terrorist, the CIA probably fits better than anyone.

OK, response A
perhaps an interesting read on defining terrorism is in order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism
Yes the CIA could fit several of the 100 plus ways to define terrorism. I'm not sure how to describe how I feel about you as a citizen of this constitutional republic finding a need to use that term to describe our countries very own intelligence agency, other than, well whatever floats your fear boat. On the other hand; My high school history teacher served in some sort of counter intelligence field work, I always wondered about his limp and what kind of action he participated in. Anyway, Great guy, great father, great american, amusing drivers ed teacher, It's almost offensive to me that you could use that term to describe those kind of people but I can pass it off as you just not having a good day perhaps.

response B,
kudos on your use of a politcally or emotionally charged word, you sure hooked me with it. I guess that puts you right up there with the best politicians and media outlets:D

response C,
Yeah that darn CIA, always hijacking things and ramming things into buildings and blowing up citizenry of other countries and of our own country on purpose, they really need to stop blowing themselves up in police stations, train stations, and on other public transportation too. Well, maybe we should wait till they behead one more hostage, Oh I know, lets blame them on the President, it's all his fault. Thanks for pointing that out!

[WVXJ]

seriously, that's insulting. Milosovic was a 'peace lovin christian' i suppose. Or i guess America is the only righteous force in the world, is that your point............you could probably find some pictures of Iraqi women and children dismembered and such if one wanted. The point is that violence begets violence, your not going to change that with more violence. Both sides can pull up pictures and justify their want for more violence.................you don't need to pull the fear and terror card, it's getting old. Don't be so quick to draw a line like that either, its kind of playgroundish, which is why i find it hard to believe people are so willing to regress to such standards with our diplomatic leaders.

[XJCreeper]

seriously, that's insulting. Milosovic was a 'peace lovin christian' i suppose. Or i guess America is the only righteous force in the world, is that your point............you could probably find some pictures of Iraqi women and children dismembered and such if one wanted. The point is that violence begets violence, your not going to change that with more violence. Both sides can pull up pictures and justify their want for more violence.................you don't need to pull the fear and terror card, it's getting old. Don't be so quick to draw a line like that either, its kind of playgroundish, which is why i find it hard to believe people are so willing to regress to such standards with our diplomatic leaders.

Thank you for answering my question. At least I know where you stand. You are a pacifist. Harmless as a fly and not to be counted on in a fight. But damned, you are one hell of a shit disturber in this playground.

Not that it matters to you. But for me generations of my family have fought and died for your lot. So at this point I we must agree to disagree. You have a fine evening and try not to get carpal tunnel keeping up with this post.

[WVXJ]

xjblue,
direct connection? it is well known he was financed by the CIA. and yeah, i must've missed that. Saddam was a nazi, i think i've heard enough.
And since you seem to think the CIA is so 'mom and pop and apple pie' i suggest you do some further investigating into the clandestine service and their 'handiwork' with toppling governments and training death squads to suppress populations. i doubt your 'counter intell' buddy was much on the dirty deeds topics with you.
Just to make it sparkling clear, i'm not defending Zarqawi, Al quaida, taleban, or any religious zealots for that matter who use religion to create war. To say so seems like you've missed the point. That being, there are better ways to do things. Not to mention, i doubt that the point of this war was to get the people responsible for 911. Its only brought profits to oil boys while putting regular folks in more danger, reference the above pictures.

[WVXJ]

and many a generation from my family have fought and died for your lot. this country isn't made up of people just like you. and not all wars are justified.
no i'm not a pacifist. you shouldn't assume so.

[Ben H]

seriously, that's insulting. Milosovic was a 'peace lovin christian' i suppose.

Are you being serious with the beginning of this statement? I can't tell.

[XJCreeper]

and many a generation from my family have fought and died for your lot. Sorry you've had kinfolk die for America too. They died for us and should certainly be honored for their service.

this country isn't made up of people just like you. I agree. We all most live together. That's what America is all about. People from many cultures living and working together.

and not all wars are justified. Maybe not, But we agree we are in a war. War must be fought to be won not lost. We disagree concerning this war.

no i'm not a pacifist. you shouldn't assume so. If you are not a pacifist concerning the war what would you say your position is.

[WVXJ]

i believe violence is a Last resort, and should be Justifiable. Al Qaeda took responsibility, then lets take it to em'. No one argued that. But Iraq, well.......

----and no Ben, in another post someone referenced 'peace lovin' muslims murdering people, so i made the point that some "christians" have done the same brutal things to other innocents..........so neither religion can claim to be 'peace lovin'.
it started as just a vent, but it always ends up with people claiming someones in bed with a terrorist. but people have to realize that not everything America has done militarily, politically, etc., has been justifiable, or morally or legally correct.

[Ben H]

Remember Slobodan Milosovic, theres a good christian soldier!


From your keyboard

[TRNDRVR]

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif

[8Mud]

seriously, that's insulting. Milosovic was a 'peace lovin christian' i suppose. Or i guess America is the only righteous force in the world, is that your point............you could probably find some pictures of Iraqi women and children dismembered and such if one wanted. The point is that violence begets violence, your not going to change that with more violence. Both sides can pull up pictures and justify their want for more violence.................you don't need to pull the fear and terror card, it's getting old. Don't be so quick to draw a line like that either, its kind of playgroundish, which is why i find it hard to believe people are so willing to regress to such standards with our diplomatic leaders.

Milosovic always struck me as an arrogant prxck. Of course I could say the same for half of the US congress.
Milosovic wasn't Serbia, the damage done by the US will probably outlive his legacy.
Serbia was a European/Nato problem by rights and geogrphy. What was our national interest in interviening? To build favor with the Saudis, sure didn't help much during the second Iraqi invasion or help keep the price of oil down. Maybe it was the mines in the Kosov mountains. I'm still not buying it being, an alturistic, we must save the helpless Albanians from the terrible Serbs thing. If the Serbs were peed off enough to want to run the Albanians, back into Albania (like running a bunch of rustlers out of Texas), there must have been a serious reason for it. Most of the Serbs I've known, always kind of reminded me of cowboys in a Louis Lamour book (without the cowboy hats) Don't start no chit, don't take no chit types. Might shoot you, but would then likely hall you to the doctor afterwords.
The Europeans were affraid they'd have a large influx of Muslim immigrants to deal with, unless the Serbs were stopped. There sure doesn't seem to be any shortage of Muslim immigrants to northern Europe now.
The best explanation I've heard, is the shelf life was up on many of the cruise missle inventory and Kosovo was the hottest topic of the day and a fairly safe place to use them up, without worrying to much about serious consequences. So some wheeling and dealing politicians could appropriate some serious money to buy some new ones. If I remember correctly cruise missles are about a million a pop.
Maybe Clinton was a corporate whore (either the arms manufacturers or Saudi inc. or both) and just had a better press agent.
Instead of fighting the battles that need to be fought, he picked the flavor of the day and one he was sure he could win. Currying favor with the Europeans (who really liked him because he agreed with them so much, like a good chump) or the Saudis (who seem to have really short memories).
Am I the only one who sees the parallel, between the Serbian campaign and the Lebanon campaign. It's almost like the Isrealis, stoll a page from the US play book. I have no doubt, young Lebanese men are lined up to sign on with Hezballah, I'd be pissed off.
A whole lot of bad stuff going on. Much of it seems to be centered around Muslims of one flavor or another lately.
As soon as we get bogged down in the middle east (seriously) Korea or even maybe China will start acting up.
The Status Quo is shifting. War sucks, but maybe it's inevitable. I personnally wouldn't blame Bush for the whole chit storm. A serious confrintation has been brewing for a long time.

[Ramsey]

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif
Share some of that, fatty

[jpars]

They are NOT extremists, they are the true face of Islam


:roflmao: :roflmao:

total ignorant bullshit

[JeeperG]

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/D/bush_beer.jpg

[8Mud]

Would somebody please explain the difference beween, ethnic cleansing, genocide and bombing the chit out of somebody. Especially with the guided munitions they drop out of airplanes now. Maybe the difference is just methode. Maybe the difference is just, who looses and who gets to judge whom.
I guess a bomb does stand a chance of landing in an integrated nieghborhood and is indiscriminate (kind of).
I'm a live and let live type for the most part. But seriously, I can't really see that much of difference between dropping a five hundred pound bomb on somebody and shooting them in the head. I guess the five hundred pound methode makes cleanup and burial a lot harder.
People seem to be able to accept the bomb methode of dealing with problems, a lot easier than the more personal reach out and touch someone methode.
I guess it isn't called murder, genocide, or ethnic cleansing if it's done from 15,000 feet or so and a person doesn't know exactly who they are killing.
I guess in peoples minds, the persons responsible are taken out of the loop and the bomb did it.
Just a " The Pot calling the Kettle black" kind of illistration.

Somebody mentioned the difference between Fundamentalists and Extremists. The Fundamental movement started a long time ago, actually way before the Shah (his father an dhimput a lid on it). The Ayotollas, feared a progressive society would weaken there control. But after the Shah was disposed and the Ayatollas took over, they had a Fundametalist regime in Iran, that quickly spread to Saudi Arabia, Sadam put a lid on it in Iraq, into Egypt, Afganistan and other places. It evolved in Iran, to a more pregressive type of the same doctrine. Though in Iran at the moment, they are trying to jail a Noble Prize winning, womans advocate.

[flexjay87]

once again, muslims fall into two categorys for religion. the Sunnis beleive in elected officials, and the Shiites believe that only descendents of mohammad can run things. once again liberal, pointy headed morons at the reigns of power in our misguided public institutions are missing the historical point. and that is that mohammad is the counterpart to jesus as religious powers. why else would Iran want to "wipe israel off the map". shiites are looking for world domination, by FORCE. that is the comparative reference to Hitler that you hear about, comprende'.

[Rev Den]

IbetReindeerpipesin.

:D

Rev

[WVXJ]

yeah, no, its not that simple...............christians and muslims lived in peace for many a year, and can so again, with a little mutual respect. The koran mentions jesus a few times and muslims actually believe him to be a prophet, just that muhammed was the Last prophet.And of course, no one will support anti-semitism if everyone can respect each others borders, arms, and trade agreements.
But, by your defining the comparison of arabs to nazis as those who wish to rule the world by force, arent you leaving out the fact that the president has just issued force in order to exert corporate dominance in the world? People like Pat Roberts calling for assasinations won't help your case any either. It's not a meiopic world and can't be dealt with as such. We have to hold ourselves accountable too, if we are to be taken seriously internationally.
Here's prof. Noam Chomsky with words on the subject,
http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_books_chomsky112603.htm

[WVXJ]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/march98/intervention1.html

heres a good one with former CIA director Woolsey...........

[XJCreeper]

yeah, no, its not that simple...............christians and muslims lived in peace for many a year, and can so again, with a little mutual respect. The koran mentions jesus a few times and muslims actually believe him to be a prophet, just that muhammed was the Last prophet.And of course, no one will support anti-semitism if everyone can respect each others borders, arms, and trade agreements.
But, by your defining the comparison of arabs to nazis as those who wish to rule the world by force, arent you leaving out the fact that the president has just issued force in order to exert corporate dominance in the world? People like Pat Roberts calling for assasinations won't help your case any either. It's not a meiopic world and can't be dealt with as such. We have to hold ourselves accountable too, if we are to be taken seriously internationally.
Here's prof. Noam Chomsky with words on the subject,
http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_books_chomsky112603.htm
What in your opinion would make the Christians and Muslins get along in harmony? How about this viewpoint I've heard from some of my "palestinian" co-workers who really are Lebanese. They say that if the Christians supported them in making the Jews give back Isreal we could then get along. Reality or BS?

Talks like this is why we are at war. Lives are impacted so sides are being picked by all folks from all walks of life. In war there is a winner and a looser. For the winner there is peace on their terms and they write history. The looser doesn't far too well. To argue this is not the worlds history would be folly. I see you've picked you side as I have. We know where we stand and ain't gonna budge.

So do you agree with my Palestians co-workers? Will shafting the Israeli's make us tight with the Muslims again? Or do you have something else in mind that will bring us closer together? Glad your rooting for your side on this forum. Now how about some constructive talk other than the leftist agenda and personal attacks? Otherwise go ahead and keep replying to yourself over and over as you are starting to do in this post.

Now that your telling me Jesus Christ our Lord is not God but a prophet I really starting to not like you very much. A religious war indeed it is for you so for me too. I get this crap at work an don't need it here my friend. Maybe you should move back to the subject as you started it. Now that we've moved from politics to insulting my religion I'm done.

[8Mud]

Maybe we ought to learn to speak there language. Tell the Iranian leaders if they threaten Jerusilum, we threaten Uhm or maybe even Mecca. They'd go nuts. They'd label us Crusaders, I'd accept the name Christian soldier and sing the " Onword Christian Soldier" song on my way to battle, I think they'd relate.
Just a thought, Israel might just be giving them enough rope to hang themselves. They gave them the West bank and the Gaza, they promptly elected radical types for a governement. The same process is going on in Lebanon, with a nudge from Israel. Every serious war Israel has had, they've gained a significant chunk of territory. They just may be setting the Palestianians up for the last battle. Or hoping to get the Golan hieghts, gaza and a serious chunk of Lebanon out of a future war. Hey we tried it there way and it didn't work.
Have the Palastinians been screwed over, no doubt. If the Jordanians and Syrians had wanted to, they could have assimilated the displaced Palestinians a long time ago. I remember the Syrians at one time saying, the reason they didn't welcome the Palestinians into Syria, was because it would change the demographics to much. So they were also instrumental at herding them into refugee camps.
The whole area is a serious mess, in a whole region of serious messes.

The question isn't wether Jessus was a Phrophet or not, that point seems fairly obvious. The question is wether he is the Messia or not. I don't feel qualified to answer that question. Not because I don't think it is a fact, but the only one who actually knows for sure, doesn't talk to me much (directly anyway).

I've read some of the Ayotolla's stuff (translated), some of what jumped out at me is they aren't so much anti Christian as anti godless morally corrupt. The West is morally corrupt. Get serious, a society that even marginally tolerates, child pronography, abductions and rape. A society that measures success by the number and cost of there toys or how much money they've managed to accumulate. Money equals effort, somebody is sweating there butt off for those toys and likely getting paid pennies.
Many in the region hate the Jews with a viscous loathing, maybe it's genetic. Like how the Turks hate the Kurds. Maybe they just need someone to hate, I sure don't understand it.
IMO if the West overhauled the Judicial system and let the families of the victims pass sentance from a short list of options. Many of the problems would disappear in short order and maybe after the system had a genenration to shake itself out, the offenders could actually be rehabilitated.
Maybe if the West was to shape up a bit, some of the justification for the conflict would disappear.

[XJCreeper]

Muslims countries don't have ponography, kidnap and rape? You ought to see what I find on some of the laptops at work from folks that say they are devout Muslims. I do agree though the West does need to shape up or were in for it. Some good Old Testament justice is what is needed to clear out the perverts and killers. No Sharia law will be required for this Westerner to behave morally.

[XJEEPER]

Very cerebral thread.....yet, I see no simple, immediate solution, or even a suggestion of an alternative to domination by force to prohibit the advances of evil, that will produce with any level of accuracy, a predicted outcome.

If we'd just carpet-bombed Iraq and Afganastan from border to border, lobbing a few into Iran at the nuke sites under development for good measure following 9-11 (remember this event?), how would the opinions of Bush hating, flag burning, global warming preaching, anti-American, anti-defense, pacifist, wannabe hippies be any different?

It's pretty easy for folks to jump up on their bucket, beat their chest and spew negativity towards those that aren't afraid to do something, like so many armchair quarterbacks who could have won the game if they had even made an attempt to try out for the team.

I don't agree with the current Admin on many things, but laying down and taking a beating just proves that we lost our desire to be free and there are plenty out there who are more than eager to step up and take totalitarian control over those described two paragraphs ago.......who would then cry out that the Admin didn't do enough to prevent the loss of thier freedoms.



Stop being.......
http://www.oxymorons.com/oxymorons_sm.jpg (http://www.oxymorons.com/oxymorons.jpg)

[Beej]

http://www.forumspile.com/Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg

[mdl]

http://www.forumspile.com/Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg

I'm supprised it hasn't been shit canned yet...

[Beej]

http://www.forumspile.com/Thread-Sucks-Come_for-Bush.jpg

[BOB]

I kind of belive Iranians and some other mideast countries and other simply impoverished countries have no hope. So, they fear Democracy, because they never had to worry about providing their own food, medical and homes. They have always had a government give them these things. They don't understand Democracy can lead to a better life for future generations. Look at Poland, Japan even Germany. Previous generations sacrificed so todays generations can flourish. They are fine examples of Democracy at work.

...BOB

[Ben H]

I kind of belive Iranians and some other mideast countries and other simply impoverished countries have no hope. So, they fear Democracy, because they never had to worry about providing their own food, medical and homes. They have always had a government give them these things. They don't understand Democracy can lead to a better life for future generations. Look at Poland, Japan even Germany. Previous generations sacrificed so todays generations can flourish. They are fine examples of Democracy at work.

...BOB

Good point.

I dont understand the biff the rest of the world has with democracy. Maybe it is the personal freedom. I for one love it and I would change a thing. Cant people just leave well enough alone. I might be down to become an isolationist, say screw the rest of the world and there problems.

We can set up metal storm www.metalstorm.com on all of our borders and just wait for our enemies to approach, and WHAMMO! Get some!
He who has the biggest guns wins.

[8Mud]

Maybe there aren't any solutions and what seems at the moment like a solution doesn't work out as planned.
What are the alternatives. Do nothing, do something, ignore it, hide form it, what till it sits on your head and then bite it in the ass.
I imagine there are people on one side of the fence, on the other side of the fence, on the fence and under the fence. The whole idea of Democracy is that the first one hundred names in the telephone book, when all there oppinons are averaged out, will likely come up with the right solution.
A little discussion seems to help the process some and likely keeps things from being to rash and knee jerk by taking up some time with the discussion ( which tends to minimize manic solutions).

[8Mud]

I kind of belive Iranians and some other mideast countries and other simply impoverished countries have no hope. So, they fear Democracy, because they never had to worry about providing their own food, medical and homes. They have always had a government give them these things. They don't understand Democracy can lead to a better life for future generations. Look at Poland, Japan even Germany. Previous generations sacrificed so todays generations can flourish. They are fine examples of Democracy at work.

...BOB

I worked with an exiled Turkish field grade officer for awhile. He was purged from the military for his fundamentalist views, along with a whole bunch of others. I found him to be more of an activist than a fundamentalist.
To sum up his view, Islam is the only chance we have. He clued me in to some things twenty years ago, that are just now really starting to ripen. He thought I was dumb as a rock and didn't have clue, kind of arrogant.
I'd drive with him occasionally into the Muslim ghetto's and was impressed with there organization. Before cell phones, these guys would have wireless phones and be standing on the street all day just watching. Kind of reminded me of Gangster Inc. (in L.A.) and was run along the same lines. Life centered around the coffee shops, the smoke shops and the Mosque.
Before you ask the question how can they be Muslims and gangsters at the same time, ask the same question of the Mafia (devout Catholic gangsters). There was/is a lot of crossover between the gangs, the activists, the fundamentalists and other flavors of muslims.
A lot of people have trouble making the connection between Sadam (the gangsters) and the extremists (religious fanatics). Two factions with pretty much a parralell agenda. With more than a bit of crossover.

[XJCreeper]

Good description! You are correct. From the extremist to the radical they all work together pushing thier plans forward. They donate much personal time and are frowned upon if they don't by thier peers. A muslim once told me Muslims think in terms of millenia and thier time is coming again. I should convert before it too late kinda crap. The point was it is our short attention spans and memory that makes us weak against the future they desire to impose on us infidels.

My companies internet connection has been used to send spam as well as encrypted communications by these folks. They always talk in arabic and travel in their tight groups. When ramadan comes the whole place is on pins and needles. I know what you mean when you say these folks gave you the mafia feel on all the levels too. From momma in the kitchen, Yassina making the flyer with the dead babies pictures, Akbar taking photos of bridges, to the Iman preaching jihad. I love democracy, but we are kinda friggin' screwed.

[8Mud]

For awhile a Turk was top bean counter at Mercedes.
For the last couple of years, my youngest son has been working on and off at the Iranian Consulate. The kid is about as politicaly ambivilant as your gonna find anywhere. They threw him off the job at the Iranian Consules residence a couple of months ago. Because he was his fathers son (he'd flunked the revised security screening). Almost got him layed off, they didn't have to say it, it was fairly obvious, what good is he if we can't put him to work on our biggest job. The guy who replaced him was a Russian and likely my sons best friend, I didn't say closest, I said best.
I went out to the Iranian job and had a talk with the Archetect/security, with a security type (kind of reminded me of an attack squirrel) standing behind her listening to every word. And mentioned a couple of jobs I'd worked on in Beverly Hills (Iranian and Saudi). People get narrow views of the world. She got red in the face and secret squirrel looked like he wanted to bite (I figure he was the one who had black listed my son). I'll eventually find out where he lives and have somebody dump a load of quick dry cement down his toilet bowel.
I watched two German security guys, physically pick up a guy, dressed like a carpenter, but a little too clean and walking a little to slow and throw him in the back of a van, while he was watching a job in progress at the American consulate.
I'll tell you one thing, it may be BS and it may not. But much of what the Easterners (and middle Easterners) think of the west comes from Europe. I've occasionally over the years, mentioned that it was not a good idea to confuse me with a German. A few gangster inc. strong arm types (which are on the decline since the second Iraqi invasion) found out the hard way. Word seems to have spread and they leave me pretty much alone now, and when I do have dealings with them, they are respectfull. My youngest daughters dating a progressive type, Turkish gangster inc., guy is into food, a restuarantur who seems to have it going on. She has been investigating Islam for about 6 years now, but hasn't converted. I remember when she came home and told me pigs were dirty filthy animals, that eat there own excretment, I said your probably right, but I sure don't remember any cows walking over to the next pasture to do there buisiness. :)
IMO, you almost have to address the situation, from mulitple levels and views and refrain from making blanket judgements.

[JeeperG]

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/JeeperG/georgesays.jpg

[TRNDRVR]

Bush is just a whore!

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif

[8Mud]

At least he didn't get caught diddling the office help. Or do a Gore and say Uhm and make a pause, everytime he tried to count to ten (image is everything type).
I don't particularly begrudge Clinton a shot at a secretary, he seems the type and womanizing is one of the lesser sins. But doing it in the office and getting caught, was way past dumb and sure set a poor example in the age of AIDS.
Much of the middle east likely hates Bush, but they likely respect him. The Ayotollas are gonna go nuts, if some knee jerk liberal comes in and legalizes same sex marriage, deletes all vestiges of religion from government, declares a moritorium on morals and tries to convince the world, that governement is responsible for all the peoples needs from politically correct educational content, right down to supplying the proper toothpaste for the medicine cabinet ( a sea creature died, to make the Marble that was ground down to make the abrasive in your toothpaste, so we are gonna require you to switch to sand).

[BOB]

I still would like to beleive the fundamentist fawks are a minority.
our differences are with the minority regime, not the people.
the people have no choice but to cheer for those who provide for them.
Can you imagine if Bin Laden with all his wealth, bought his way
into control of a nuke? Holy Shit!
say what you want about Bush.
when the shit hits the fan, Bush will hit back!

...BOB

[lilredwagn]

At least he didn't get caught diddling the office help.
Barney doesn't have opposable thumbs. Makes it hard to pick up the phone to call Linda Tripp.

Or do a Gore and say Uhm and make a pause, everytime he tried to count to ten (image is everything type).

When it comes to the man who represents the most powerful nation in the history of the human species, I would hope that people would find the tendency to speak carefully and accurately a favorable trait. Gore hurt himself by turning off the everyman specifically because he was NOT image conscious, but adhered to his natural tendencies. That born-with-a-silver-coke-spoon up his nose ivy league frat boy buying a ranch to make him look like a man of the land - THAT'S image conscious.

I don't particularly begrudge Clinton a shot at a secretary, he seems the type and womanizing is one of the lesser sins. But doing it in the office and getting caught, was way past dumb and sure set a poor example in the age of AIDS.
In other words, you don't really care or think it's germane to the actual responsibilities of the presidency, but you'll be sure to mention it once or twice anyway as though it is. :D

Much of the middle east likely hates Bush, but they likely respect him.Much of the middle east likely enjoys sticking cheerios up their noses, but they likely don't own David Hasselhoff inflatable dolls. .

The Ayotollas are gonna go nuts, if some knee jerk liberal comes in and legalizes same sex marriage, deletes all vestiges of religion from government, declares a moritorium on morals and tries to convince the world, that governement is responsible for all the peoples needs from politically correct educational content
It sounds to me like you support all those options, but that you fear what the Ayatollas will think about it. Doesn't that mean the terrists win?

right down to supplying the proper toothpaste for the medicine cabinet ( a sea creature died, to make the Marble that was ground down to make the abrasive in your toothpaste, so we are gonna require you to switch to sand).
Silica is a superior abrasive anyway. Also, the FDA doesn't evaluate the abrasive component of toothpastes - just fluoridation. Which would mean that any restrictions on harvesting seashells would be just that - and totally unrelated to toothpaste.

[Glenn B]

Awwww, poor baby. You sound bitter. Are you still sore at losing two times in a row? Given that your party has failed, what are you all going to do in order to present a viable candidate? Key word: viable.

Barney doesn't have opposable thumbs. Makes it hard to pick up the phone to call Linda Tripp.



When it comes to the man who represents the most powerful nation in the history of the human species, I would hope that people would find the tendency to speak carefully and accurately a favorable trait. Gore hurt himself by turning off the everyman specifically because he was NOT image conscious, but adhered to his natural tendencies. That born-with-a-silver-coke-spoon up his nose ivy league frat boy buying a ranch to make him look like a man of the land - THAT'S image conscious.


In other words, you don't really care or think it's germane to the actual responsibilities of the presidency, but you'll be sure to mention it once or twice anyway as though it is. :D

Much of the middle east likely enjoys sticking cheerios up their noses, but they likely don't own David Hasselhoff inflatable dolls. .


It sounds to me like you support all those options, but that you fear what the Ayatollas will think about it. Doesn't that mean the terrists win?


Silica is a superior abrasive anyway. Also, the FDA doesn't evaluate the abrasive component of toothpastes - just fluoridation. Which would mean that any restrictions on harvesting seashells would be just that - and totally unrelated to toothpaste.

[RichP]

Awwww, poor baby. You sound bitter. Are you still sore at losing two times in a row? Given that your party has failed, what are you all going to do in order to present a viable candidate? Key word: viable.

They will do what all loosers do who have nothing, they'll run a negative campaign. Park you jeep round a democratic rally and it'll look like it just spent a week mud bogging....

[8Mud]

Barney doesn't have opposable thumbs. Makes it hard to pick up the phone to call Linda Tripp.



When it comes to the man who represents the most powerful nation in the history of the human species, I would hope that people would find the tendency to speak carefully and accurately a favorable trait. Gore hurt himself by turning off the everyman specifically because he was NOT image conscious, but adhered to his natural tendencies. That born-with-a-silver-coke-spoon up his nose ivy league frat boy buying a ranch to make him look like a man of the land - THAT'S image conscious.


In other words, you don't really care or think it's germane to the actual responsibilities of the presidency, but you'll be sure to mention it once or twice anyway as though it is. :D

Much of the middle east likely enjoys sticking cheerios up their noses, but they likely don't own David Hasselhoff inflatable dolls. .


It sounds to me like you support all those options, but that you fear what the Ayatollas will think about it. Doesn't that mean the terrists win?


Silica is a superior abrasive anyway. Also, the FDA doesn't evaluate the abrasive component of toothpastes - just fluoridation. Which would mean that any restrictions on harvesting seashells would be just that - and totally unrelated to toothpaste.
LOL :roll: I'll go along with everything but the toothpaste, I think it's already too late to save floride.

[flexjay87]

you know what they say, "men love Bush,and women love Dick" it was a ticket that couldn't be beat!!!!!!