full hydro steering

[macgyvr]

so an orbital valve out of a fork truck just landed in my garage the other day...

running d60 with three link and trackbar

39.5 krawlers

high steer arms on stock knuckles

welded front with hubs for now...

double or single ended ram?
-have looked at the 2x8 single ram at the tractor store...seems simple, cheap and available anywhere...
-thoughts on a double ended ram?

who's done what...dont have too much time to webwheel anymore, spend most of the time in the garage or at work...

i did a quick search and didn't turn up much for full hydro...but if someone with way to much time wants to look, point me towards some archives...

thanks

mac 'steering box doesn't like to stay attached' gyvr

[GREEN XJ]

Double ended has advantages, but is more expensive. It's more responsive wheel to wheel, but if just a trail rig go with single ended. I have a single ended but didn't do it the cheap way, but some of my friends have done it the cheap way(forklift valve, tractor ram) and it has worked well for them.

[macgyvr]

well i rrrrrrreeeeally want to keep it affordable...i like the idea of a $67 cylinder from the tractor store....



mac 'any others' gyvr

[BrettM]

i've heard good things for trail rig use, and it's only $67 if you don't like it. i'd be more concerned about the forklift valve.

[seanR]

Mac, get ahold of 'brianho',
He and I had a very good talk about hydro steering at CF.

Good to see you still around, don't be a stranger!

[Fullsizexj]

I run a single sided and it works great, plus it is easier to mount up out of harms way, a double ends up out front of everything

[macgyvr]

Mac, get ahold of 'brianho',
He and I had a very good talk about hydro steering at CF.

Good to see you still around, don't be a stranger!


been a stranger because i like to wrench more than listen to people b!tch on the internet...its nice to get a little technical help and i definately appreciate it...i get enough drama at work... ;)

i will try to get ahold of him...unless he sees this thread, maybe he can chime in...

trying to get the 'popcan' going to make the 4xjambo in indy near the end of the month...

mac 'full hydro...locker next' gyvr

[BRIANHO13]

First off I have only had my ram assist on for three runs, so by no means am I an expert.

I am looking to go full hydro myself if I can find the parts at a reasonable price. If it were me I would use an orbital valve and double ended ram. The reason I would go double ended is you would have equal pressure in both directions and equal volumes of fluid in each direction.

I have seen a couple rigs where forklifts have been robbed of their orbital valves and double ended rams, supposedly for under $300.

HTH

[Fullsizexj]

you have equal with a single sided also, fluid pushes in both directions trough the same size hoses with the same bore and stroke length, it is the valve that determins which way fluid flows, additionally you do not have the acreman angles problem to contend with either. do a little more research

[BrettM]

you have equal with a single sided also, fluid pushes in both directions trough the same size hoses with the same bore and stroke length, it is the valve that determins which way fluid flows, additionally you do not have the acreman angles problem to contend with either. do a little more research
not true. the bore may be the same size but the surface area of the rod side is smaller giving it less force and less fluid volume required to fill that side of the chamber.

[BRIANHO13]

It may be the same bore and stroke length but your surface area is taken up by the size of the rod.

Say you have a 2" bore with a 1" rod, and 1000psi pressure. Your pushing force in one direction would be 3140 pounds . Your pushing force in the other would be 2355 pounds.

Also if your stroke is 8" your volume of fluid to go one direction would be 25.12in^3 the other direction would be 18.84in^3.

So that is why I think double ended would be better equal pressure and volume. Let me know if I need to put up schematics and the math for you.

[BRIANHO13]

not true. the bore may be the same size but the surface area of the rod side is smaller giving it less force and less fluid volume required to fill that side of the chamber.

You beat me to it, but I gave a little explanation.

[Dirk Pitt]

It may be the same bore and stroke length but your surface area is taken up by the size of the rod.

Say you have a 2" bore with a 1" rod, and 1000psi pressure. Your pushing force in one direction would be 3140 pounds . Your pushing force in the other would be 2355 pounds.

Also if your stroke is 8" your volume of fluid to go one direction would be 25.12in^3 the other direction would be 18.84in^3.

So that is why I think double ended would be better equal pressure and volume. Let me know if I need to put up schematics and the math for you.


This is spot on correct...

Fluid cannot act on the area the shaft is occupying in a one ended cylinder.

[Kaczman]

Is the valve load sensing? If so I'd recommend using a balanced cylinder, and if not go with the cheap farm unit. Also, are you going to do any road driving? A non-sensing valve and single ended ram could be hard to handle.

Here's everything you need to know:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index2.html

-Jon

[Dirk Pitt]

you have equal with a single sided also, fluid pushes in both directions trough the same size hoses with the same bore and stroke length, it is the valve that determins which way fluid flows, additionally you do not have the acreman angles problem to contend with either. do a little more research

I also think you could tune ackerman to your liking with either type of ram.

[Fullsizexj]

eitherway, the single sided will feel no different through the steering wheel than a double other than it takes 3 turns to full lock one way and 2 the other, in my experience you do not even notice it, after all who drives by counting how many times they have to turn their steering wheel to make a turn, only drawback which is no big deal to me is the steering wheel is always ending clocked in a different posistion. No matter which way you go, I would not want it in a street driven vehicle, it is way to fast reacting

[Kaczman]

What's the displacement of your valve? Mine's 7.3 cubic inches and feels very stable at speed. I've had it up to 85 mph and felt perfectly safe (I don't recommend or advise anyone to try this at home).

-Jon

[Fullsizexj]

not sure what it was anymore, Station set up the matching system for me based on the ram I am using

[OT]

Is the valve load sensing? If so I'd recommend using a balanced cylinder, and if not go with the cheap farm unit. Also, are you going to do any road driving? A non-sensing valve and single ended ram could be hard to handle.

Here's everything you need to know:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index2.html

-Jon
That's a great article.
More people should take the time to read it.

[Panthers65]

What pump are you going to be using for your assist, Did you buy an aftermarket high-flow pump or are you able to use your stock one

[BrettM]

What pump are you going to be using for your assist, Did you buy an aftermarket high-flow pump or are you able to use your stock one
for assist the stock one works fine with a 1.5" bore cylinder

[MudDawg]

These guys build a lot of trucks with full hydro steering www.chuckstrucks.net

[OT]

These guys build the systems.
www.pscmotorsports.com

[macgyvr]

Is the valve load sensing? If so I'd recommend using a balanced cylinder, and if not go with the cheap farm unit. Also, are you going to do any road driving? A non-sensing valve and single ended ram could be hard to handle.

Here's everything you need to know:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index2.html

-Jon

the only road driving that I'm planning on doing are the road driving it takes to get to a trail (i.e. in moab or the like), otherwise its pretty much on the trailer or on the trail...those red label 39.5 crawlers wear to fast on pavement.

thanks for the link...and i appreciate all the discussion here...keep it coming.

mac 'ran tractor store control arms at one point' gyvr

[BRIANHO13]

the only road driving that I'm planning on doing are the road driving it takes to get to a trail (i.e. in moab or the like), otherwise its pretty much on the trailer or on the trail...those red label 39.5 crawlers wear to fast on pavement.

thanks for the link...and i appreciate all the discussion here...keep it coming.

mac 'ran tractor store control arms at one point' gyvr

Sounds, like you def want double ended ram then, sure you can cheap out, but you will be happier with a balanced system, at least I would.

But hey after a couple turns one way and a couple the other you might be able to get your steering wheel straight, with a single ended ram.:D

[CRASH]

for assist the stock one works fine with a 1.5" bore cylinder


Barely. I really want the smaller PSC pulley to speed up my pump at idle. Hard to make quick direction changes off-throttle.....

Anything over 1,200 RPM or so is lovely.

I had a good laugh about a single ended ram having the same power in either direction.......fluid dynamics ought to be a mandatory class in high school.

[Panthers65]

dang-it, sorry I ment what pumps are yall using for the pull hydro. I've already got the control valve and ram, I just need to get a pump and reservoir, do you have to run one of the specific pumps? I don't mind spending the money on the valve, ram, ect... but $350 for a 4.0 specific pump from psc worries me just because I only spend $300 on the jeep itself and I"m not sure how much longer the 4.0 will be in there

[macgyvr]

i have to admit i've been busy with work and haven't had time to read that link.

as far as the steering wheel being straight when the tires are straight, i could really care less as that is never hardly the case with the current system.

is that the main balancing factor with the double ended ram...where is the best bang for the buck on a double ended ram. also single or double with the stock power steering pump. i've been told there is a way to modify the stock pump for more power and i'm not really interested in going to a different one as i have a super secret motor on a stand in the garage that is probably destined for the rig...

i don't quite understand the fluid dynamics stuff, as that's not really my cup of tea....

if my questions can be answered in the link, tell me to read the link...and i'll try to read it this weekend...hopefully...

mac 'full of dynamics' gyvr

[BIGWOODY]

not to be splitting hairs, just curious...you keep refering to the Krawlers as 39.5 red labels. where are you getting those from? Because the last 5 sets I've bought say 39x13.50x17 on them.

[OT]

i have to admit i've been busy with work and haven't had time to read that link.

as far as the steering wheel being straight when the tires are straight, i could really care less as that is never hardly the case with the current system.

is that the main balancing factor with the double ended ram...where is the best bang for the buck on a double ended ram. also single or double with the stock power steering pump. i've been told there is a way to modify the stock pump for more power and i'm not really interested in going to a different one as i have a super secret motor on a stand in the garage that is probably destined for the rig...

i don't quite understand the fluid dynamics stuff, as that's not really my cup of tea....

if my questions can be answered in the link, tell me to read the link...and i'll try to read it this weekend...hopefully...

mac 'full of dynamics' gyvr
Read the link, Dynamo.

[ashmanjeepxj]

also single or double with the stock power steering pump

It dosent matter.

The steering valve needs to be matched to the volume of the ram.
You see the common single ended ram and double ended ram are within 4cuin volume, they use the saem 7.3cuin/rev steerign valve, the double woudl be 3 turns 3 *7.3, the double would be 3 turn one way 2.3 turns the other way. Its simple, do a cheap single ended ram now and later you can upgrade to the larger double ended ram and use the same hoses valve, pump.....

common single ended ram is 8in 2in bore 1.125 shaft. 21 cuin average volume(25.12 one direction, 17.12 the other)
double ended 8in 2.5in bore 1.5in shaft. Total volume 25.12 Cuin

[JamesD]

So are most forklifts going to have this valve similar to what you have or do I need to look for particular ones. I know where one is that I might can rob it from. Thanks

James

[ashmanjeepxj]

So are most forklifts going to have this valve similar to what you have or do I need to look for particular ones. I know where one is that I might can rob it from. Thanks

James

Many are 4-5 cuin/rev displacement and those will require alot more turns of the steering wheel to turn you can not use those...

download the charlynn catalog and the dan foss catalogs and see if you can find part numbers for what you need.

My part number is not in the catalogs but it is 7.3cuit displacement. took abit of research to find the right part. out of maybe 50 we looked at only two were the right ones.

[macgyvr]

not to be splitting hairs, just curious...you keep refering to the Krawlers as 39.5 red labels. where are you getting those from? Because the last 5 sets I've bought say 39x13.50x17 on them.

ah...whatever...they are the 39s...of the red label variety...

they are big and sticky...

and i have no clue what cuin/rev this steering valve that i have come across is?

mac 'hair splitter' gyvr