The Archangel Build Thread

[Twicepardoned]

(I have placed my build thread in here because alot of the build would eventually be asked and documented in here anyway)

I decided to name my XJ in lieu of this build taking place. Meet The Archangel.

I think angels don't have genders.?.?.? Anyway... IT started out as a $600 buy with a supposed blown head gasket. Not so... ran perfect and looked perfect till I got ahold of it. :rolleyes:

Anyway. Basic 3" lift, trimming and 32" tires got me started... came across military tires and bead lockers that didn't fit but I kept chopping this thing up! :nono: There are better ways but I was looking to have fun with a minimal investment.

Here I am though about 7 months later getting ready to start my first official build.

To get it started I'll post my pics from last night as I was pulling her in the garage.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6010-1.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6012.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

Step one, tear it down...
( note of importance... if you have crappy Torx bits go ahead and get some quality ones because those bolts were hard as heck to get out.)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6018.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6019.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

Got the hatch, doors, fenders, hood and bumpers all off

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6020.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6021.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

MORE PICS :)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6023.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6024.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

So the first task at hand is to get the 6" lift on. I am not doing a long arm yet but am using a CAD kit. I'll post those pics as progress is made.

The first thing I'd like to discuss though is the possiblity of shortening the nose.

I've identified 3 problems
1- Battery
2- Steering Box
3- Radiator

1- The Battery should be fairly simple, I see guys do this all the time in drag racers so I am ok with the movement.

2- This is the one that I am having the most trouble figuring out though...
A-Mounting - Just below the power steering pump is a small area that can fit the steering box but it would require some mounting which is not available. I imagine a great deal of fabbing would need to be done.
B-Pitman Arm - The entire physics of the pitman arm would be changed. This could require skills far beyond my own. This would need to be discussed in great detail.

3- My immediate thought is to route 2" hard piping to the back of the Jeep... send and return obviously. Mount the radiator in the rear and use air ducts along the roof to pull air from. Electric fans obviously.

Anyway... these are my current thoughts, and I think the steering could be the biggest obstacle to overcome.

[Twicepardoned]

OK it's finally looking like something that's strictly off-road... or getting closer. :sunshine: It was a hot day to be out in the sun the whole time

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6033.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6036.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/jun6034.jpg

Interesting side note, I measured 5inches distance between the rear tires and fender before I started today and NOW I have 6.5" of clearance!!!! That's alot of weight loss! :angel:

[Twicepardoned]

Here's my current thought for the back... and please don't be afraid to give constructive criticism.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/edit1.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/edit2.jpg

As you can see I 'plan' on using the existing structure to tap into for an overhead bar in the back, then brace it against the vertical pillar and the edge of the 'truck bed'. The 2 longest tubes are what I would like to use for the spare tire. My concern is that the spare, being heavy and all might cause the beam over head to sag??? I may be way off base so please, feedback before I start welding

[Monkey55]

Interesting side note, I measured 5inches distance between the rear tires and fender before I started today and NOW I have 6.5" of clearance!!!! That's alot of weight loss! :angel:
If you cage it, it'll be back down to 5".. ;)

So, how are you going to add support?? Are you going to leave the back open or are you going to put the hatch right behind the rear seat??

Edit - you just answered my first question.


Nice start by the way.

E

[Twicepardoned]

If you cage it, it'll be back down to 5".. ;)

So, how are you going to add support?? Are you going to leave the back open or are you going to put the hatch right behind the rear seat??

Edit - you just answered my first question.


Nice start by the way.

E

Thanks Eli!

I do not plan on 'exo' caging it. I am wanting a suitable cage for the driver. As for the rear I am just a little conerned with how flimsy the roof was so I will be adding the small section you see. It's functionality will be to hold the spare, tow straps, helmets and gas cans, not really to protect anything.
(I don't plan on doing 'dangerous' stuff with any passengers as it is)

The rear will remain fully open, I am selling hatch (see midwest chapter classifieds)

[lancey3]

Looks great man! Are you going to do some unibody stiffeners?

I think a partial exo would be cool with some tube fenders tied into them. What are your official plans for the build? What lift are you going to run?

[Twicepardoned]

Looks great man! Are you going to do some unibody stiffeners?

I think a partial exo would be cool with some tube fenders tied into them. What are your official plans for the build? What lift are you going to run?

Thanks Lance!

For now I'm staying with the Military 36" tires. I know they will be a weak link when I hit the rocks but so far I am extremely happy with the way they handle dirt, mud and basically rough terrain.
The lift is 6.5" and with the load lightened this way I imagine that's more like 7 or 7.5.... just a guess though.

I have no immediate plans for the bumpers but they will be custom... don't expect much though, maybe like 4" tubes on either side. Just something to push small children out of the way with. :)

There are lots of ideas I have so I am hoping to expand my horizon with some thoughts from everyone but all in all there is no official 'plan'

I'd like to be able to drive up to a wall and put the Jeep vertical but I'm not sure how much work that would take for something that's nothing more than a "Look what I can do!!!" ehehe

[Twicepardoned]

Oh and as far as unibody stiffeners... well I hadn't even considered it... That is to say I hadn't thought about it yet. Do you think I'd need them?

[Twicepardoned]

Removed the rear bench and belts... just to get more space to work and prevent a slag fire. I'put them back once I figure out and install the back cage.

[lancey3]

Oh and as far as unibody stiffeners... well I hadn't even considered it... That is to say I hadn't thought about it yet. Do you think I'd need them?

Its definitely a good idea. The subframe rails are paper thin.

[2xtreme]

Here's my current thought for the back... and please don't be afraid to give constructive criticism.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/edit1.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/edit2.jpg

As you can see I 'plan' on using the existing structure to tap into for an overhead bar in the back, then brace it against the vertical pillar and the edge of the 'truck bed'. The 2 longest tubes are what I would like to use for the spare tire. My concern is that the spare, being heavy and all might cause the beam over head to sag??? I may be way off base so please, feedback before I start welding

I am not sure I understand what you are doing here? Is this in place of a full cage? How are you going to tie in your overhead bar to the "C" pillars? There isn't much there to tie into. What is the purpose of the outer bars?
Your inboard bars should tie into the frame in the back (they need to be wider) you might also consider making them go all the way to the outside of the overhead bar at the top or make them an "X". I might be completely off base but it seems to me you might want to do a little more planning before you go too much further?

Michael

[Twicepardoned]

I am not sure I understand what you are doing here? Is this in place of a full cage? How are you going to tie in your overhead bar to the "C" pillars? There isn't much there to tie into. What is the purpose of the outer bars?
Your inboard bars should tie into the frame in the back (they need to be wider) you might also consider making them go all the way to the outside of the overhead bar at the top or make them an "X". I might be completely off base but it seems to me you might want to do a little more planning before you go too much further?

Michael

That was my purpose in posting it. I have no intentions of building something (like a cage) that I am totally clueless about.

Let me see if I understand correctly... You believe I should cross the bars running the back to the top.?.?

The purpose of the rear cage is really only for the spare tire and to close it in and give a little support on the back. It is NOT a 'roll cage' though.
The only 'roll cage' I plan on building will be directly around the drivers seat, nothing more.

[2xtreme]

These unibody vehicles have little chance of holding up to off road use and large tires left alone. With the lack of all the doors and rear it will not last long term (it will fold like a taco:lecture: ).

The additional "support" that you are proposing I don't believe will do anything to put the "support" back in the unibody that you have eliminated.

one important advantage to a cage for a unibody is the "support" that it CAN provide to the vehicle. If it is just built around the drive it will have difficulty providing any support to the rest of the vehicle.

Just my comments.
Michael

[Mr.OverKill]

I have no intentions of building something (like a cage) that I am totally clueless about.

The purpose of the rear cage is really only for the spare tire and to close it in and give a little support on the back. It is NOT a 'roll cage' though.
Please Please Please don't get discouraged by the feed back you well be getting from myself and others, we are trying to give constructive criticism!!!!! but the first comment you made in the quote in red you have apparently done just that!!! the body of the XJ works as a sort of flimsy cage with the skin as shear web's and you CUT THEM AWAY, leaving no real support!!!!!!!!!!! plate your frame rails, tie the front part of the body in to the rear with an internal BAISIC cage tied in to the reinforced frame rails adding a little more around the driver if you want but thoroughly reinforcing the rear, look at jump this's rig, he did what you want to do and ( GAWD, i cant believe i am going to say this out loud for the world to see ) he did it very well and you can mount your spare tire there if the cage is solid and you wont need to worry about it

we tell you this from experiences we have had or seen happen to others so take it for what its worth and build smartly and you wont regret it in the end, because you will have a rig that will take you places you never thought a unibody station wagon ever could go and look good doing it!! :laugh3:

[Twicepardoned]

These unibody vehicles have little chance of holding up to off road use and large tires left alone. With the lack of all the doors and rear it will not last long term (it will fold like a taco:lecture: ).

The additional "support" that you are proposing I don't believe will do anything to put the "support" back in the unibody that you have eliminated.

one important advantage to a cage for a unibody is the "support" that it CAN provide to the vehicle. If it is just built around the drive it will have difficulty providing any support to the rest of the vehicle.

Just my comments.
Michael

You're perfectly fine, I posted this for thsi very reason... I need the advice.
In all honesty I just don't think I removed very much frame strength, granted it is alot lighter but I'm not sure how much ridgity was compromised.

My thought was that if I simply tie the rear end up to the roof at an angle it should bring back what may have been lost.

For the record I ended up taking this offroad yesterday, nothing crazy... but it was awesome!!! I can't believe how much power was gained from dumping the weight. It's like free hhorsepower! hahaha

[Twicepardoned]

Please Please Please don't get discouraged by the feed back you well be getting from myself and others, we are trying to give constructive criticism!!!!! but the first comment you made in the quote in red you have apparently done just that!!! the body of the XJ works as a sort of flimsy cage with the skin as shear web's and you CUT THEM AWAY, leaving no real support!!!!!!!!!!! plate your frame rails, tie the front part of the body in to the rear with an internal BAISIC cage tied in to the reinforced frame rails adding a little more around the driver if you want but thoroughly reinforcing the rear, look at jump this's rig, he did what you want to do and ( GAWD, i cant believe i am going to say this out loud for the world to see ) he did it very well and you can mount your spare tire there if the cage is solid and you wont need to worry about it

we tell you this from experiences we have had or seen happen to others so take it for what its worth and build smartly and you wont regret it in the end, because you will have a rig that will take you places you never thought a unibody station wagon ever could go and look good doing it!! :laugh3:

OK, what you're suggesting doesn't sound too bad. I am ok with adding the frame support, I guess I still don't see why I'd need to fully cage the front as well if I simply tie the back up again. It just seems illogical to me to completely frame in the front if it technically already is.?.?.?

[ehall]

This is the XJ "frame"

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/RCman/JeepBuild/Chop/ThinUnibodyRails.jpg

It's sheet metal that is spot-welded to the sheet metal floorboard, which is spot-welded to the exterior body panels.

All the doors, hatches, windows, etc., all contribute to making the thing rigid. If you rely on the "frame" for anything it will bend over

[2xtreme]

You have to look at the structure of a unibody vehicle to work as a complete system. When you remove all of the "shear plane" structure of the doors, and rear roof, windows, etc you no longer have the stucture that is inherant with the entire "system". Adding a few bars between the roof and the rear of the frame will not provide the same structure as the body provided. I am not going to say that it wouldn't help, but I wouldn't consider it any significant support.

Personally, I wouldn't consider anything other than a full cage (minimum from "A" pillar to "D" pillar) to replace the structure of the vehicle that is lost, but this is only my opinion.

Michael

[Twicepardoned]

This is the XJ "frame"

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/RCman/JeepBuild/Chop/ThinUnibodyRails.jpg

It's sheet metal that is spot-welded to the sheet metal floorboard, which is spot-welded to the exterior body panels.

All the doors, hatches, windows, etc., all contribute to making the thing rigid. If you rely on the "frame" for anything it will bend over

Thank you for the photo! very helpful in understanding this. I did not realize that the 'frame' was nothing more than sheet metal. I actually though it was meatier

[RCman]

Thank you for the photo! very helpful in understanding this. I did not realize that the 'frame' was nothing more than sheet metal. I actually though it was meatier
Hey now! I'm going to take full credit for that photo. Not only did I take that photo, it's my XJ!

ehall = photo stealing :looser:






:D

PS: I really have no problem with it, just give credit where credit is due.


Back on topic:
I know that you probably now realise how much support and rigidity you took out, I just don't see how you didn't notice it driving it.
If I was doing something similar (wait, I am)... plate the entire unibody rail from front to back and with a full cage layout. I know I can get my body to flex just by pushing on it with one hand now. Yet, I did drop the rear floor section, hence how I got the photo.

[XJ_ranger]

dont listen to these guys...

where the suspension stops flexxxxxing, your body will take over!


- for reference, this is my junk -
http://www.opiebennett.com/images/Jeep/CalRocs5408/_0738.jpg

http://www.opiebennett.com/images/Jeep/CalRocs5408/img_0880.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

dont listen to these guys...

where the suspension stops flexxxxxing, your body will take over!


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?

[Mr.OverKill]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?right, body flex = BAD, otherwise there would be no market for the frame stiffeners they sell.

in all reality, stiffen/ reinforce the frame and add a cage, front to rear and add extra to the drivers area if you want to but with the cutting you have done you NEED to cage the back and tie it all in to the front as stated earlier, we wont tell you to do something beyond what you want to do if it is at least the minimum needed to be safe for you and keep your rig solid.

[XJ_ranger]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?

I was being sarcastic - note the pictures of my rig with 'unibody re-enforcement' cage...:greensmok

[Twicepardoned]

BTW any idea as to how much I should plan on spending on tubing? I was thinking about saving some cash and buying HREW instead of DOM depending on how much I'd save. Any idea?

[2xtreme]

BTW any idea as to how much I should plan on spending on tubing? I was thinking about saving some cash and buying HREW instead of DOM depending on how much I'd save. Any idea?

You will have to compare locally what you can get with respect to DOM or HREW and their costs. I have found that it is relatively easy to get HREW in stock in a selection of sizes. DOM I would have to order and pay much more for because it is a special order item. I would guess between $400 and $600 for a very decent start.

My opinion is that a well designed cage is more important than the material selection. A well designed cage built with 1.75" .120wall HREW would be a good starting point. You could use thicker, larger tube, or stronger material in specific areas of concern if you wanted it.

Michael

[lancey3]

Are you Thricepardoned now?

[Twicepardoned]

:) hmmmm?

[lancey3]

Hahahaha.

Thats why I asked you about the stiffeners on page one.

[Twicepardoned]

Gotcha... ;)

Well all in all I am just not the type of person who is so prideful that I cannot be 'reasoned' into a better decision. I know too many people that are stuck on 'their' way simply because it was 'their' initial thought. I prefer to not build something that turns out to be crap! hahaha

So I welcome the constructive criticism. In fact I almost feel like this build will be a corralation of everyone ideas on here.
7 months ago I could have cared less about "off-roading" but now I have learned to love it and appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a well built machine... obviously I am still approaching it from the standpoint of "Can I build a Badass crawler for cheap?"

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?

[The Griz]

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?[/quote]

i have 1.5 x.120 for my cage and dont feel that it is too small i feel that it will fully protect me when i am done with it and have the proper triangulation the t is the key tho proper triangulation think about what kind of force is gonna be put on this and from what angle but 1.5 x .120 should be strong enough

[RCman]

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?
Well, I don't have an experiance with HREW building a cage (or with DOM yet for that matter), but I'm going with DOM for the peice of mind. I just can't bring myself to use HREW.

As for the 1.75" 0.120 wall vs the 1.5" 0.120 wall debate that is up to you. Personally, I'm going with 1.75" 0.120 wall again for that peice of mind (that and the die I bought for my bender is 1.75" 240degree).

The above choices mean it will deffinatly cost more and will require me saving for longer given my limited budget :( , but I think it'll be worth it.

[lancey3]

Gotcha... ;)

Well all in all I am just not the type of person who is so prideful that I cannot be 'reasoned' into a better decision. I know too many people that are stuck on 'their' way simply because it was 'their' initial thought. I prefer to not build something that turns out to be crap! hahaha

So I welcome the constructive criticism. In fact I almost feel like this build will be a corralation of everyone ideas on here.
7 months ago I could have cared less about "off-roading" but now I have learned to love it and appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a well built machine... obviously I am still approaching it from the standpoint of "Can I build a Badass crawler for cheap?"

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?

You are a rare type of newcomer around here. But ya look into some TNT frame stiffeners.

http://www.tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=59

[2xtreme]

As has been said before. The DESIGN of the cage is more important than the material. I don't think there would be anything wrong with 1.5" HREW but I don't think the cost should be the rational as much as the size constraints. Personally I would error on the side of larger material particularly since this is your first cage build and I would suspect the difference in cost would be negligable. The larger material is significantly stronger!

1.75 material is not significantly intrusive for the passenger compartment area as long as it is designed well.

Michael

[Twicepardoned]

You are a rare type of newcomer around here. But ya look into some TNT frame stiffeners.

http://www.tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=59

The p[rice doesn't seem too bad although I wonder if I bought a bunch of angle steel if I wouldn't be able to make the same thing for half the price???

[Twicepardoned]

I had built a side exit exhaust BUT with all the doors off I think it's a bad idea...
I took it out for a drive today and got sick as hell. Got serious tunnel vision, headache, stomach cramp... I think taking the doors/hatch off allowed the fumes to circulate into the cab because I could swear it was carbon monoxide poisoning
30 minutes later I was fine fyi

[Twicepardoned]

OK I fixed the exhaust problem. Running all the way back. Took it for a drive and only got a wiff of fumes a little, nothing major, and mostly at stops.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/hotdog014.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/sgrube_photo/hotdog015.jpg

[Twicepardoned]

Hmmm I've got alot of moisture around that rear diff...