Front end fun :)

I posted this elsewhere so if it's repetitious, I apologize...

because of the help I received thus far, I ask this:

SO here's the situation: had the beginnings of DW about a year back, so I began replacing front end components to try to remedy the situation.

Started with the trackbar, then replaced all four shocks with Monroe Reflex shocks, then replaced ball joints, 3 of 4 tie rod ends, the steering box, u-joints, and frame to sway bar rubber bushings. I also replaced the LCA bushings with rubber and the upper bushings with Moog's poly-like bushings. I also replaced the steering stabilizer which has protected me from a few wobbles but at times I can feel the wobble trying to work it's way through the damper.

In all honesty, as I replaced components, specifically after the ball joints, LCA bushings, and upper control arm bushings, but before the steering box and tie rod ends I'd get the wobble only when encountering an asymmetrical displacement of the suspension, i.e. a joint in the road that was significant and I was placing a side load on the vehicle as in a gentle turn at speed.

Just before I replaced the steering box and TREs, I rotated the tires and got DW bad while braking from around 60-65 mph??? WTF? Did I somehow warp the rotors while torquing??? Anyway, I switched the wheels back and retorqued and the problem went away.

Fast forward to now, the only TRE that was not replaced was the driverside tie rod to knuckle TRE, new steering box, and three new TREs: every damn time I hit a bump it seems my jeep wants to dance all over the road, it's not uncontrollable, but what the hell is going on down there??? Also, I can tell the brakes want to make it wobble again...any thoughts??? I need to get it realigned...I know, I know, but would that be the cause of all of this??? Also the tires are old, 57,000 mi on them so they need replacement, I just don't have the $$$ right now.

DO any of you know has monroe changed the stiffness of the reflex shock?? Son of a gun it's like there's no give at all-the last set I had was amazing...

A alighnment will make a world of diffrance.

anyone else have any ideas?

another aside: my LCA bushings are the q'tec special however my UCA bushings are Moog Problem solver poly(like) bushings

anyone see this as a problem, i.e. rather than equal compression rates on either the rubber or 'thermoplastic' the stiffer 'thermoplastic' acts as a fulcrum every time i hit a damn bump in the road and only the rubber bushings compress/expand to absorb?

Any thoughts? Is this the source possibly of every asymmetric bump causing me to veer in one direction then straighten out?

check your tie rod bolts to see if theyre tight, check ur wheel pressure posiblly need to balance ur tires an alignment!

Check to see if you have frame cracks near the steering box. Had this problem on an old CJ. CROK makes a frame strengthener for this.

from my post above:

My LCA bushings are rubber, Upper bushings are Moog's version of poly.

Could this cause problems for me?

It may due to the compreshion ratio, if you have had a alingment done and the problem hasnt been solved try replacint the rubber bushings to the moog ones. If it still presists start checking all the wear points on your front end like balljoints, stearing stableizer, the shocks you instaled, and other items. If you have a weak point it can put undue wear on the rest of the suspenshion and cause it to fail.

I run the rustys shocks that came with my lift and I love the ride they give. I also get some death wobble but its very seldom I need to do an alighnment and a new stabilizer (holding off untill I put on my tie rod and drag link upgrade on). If you cannot afford to take it to get alighned and dont know how to do it your self this write up helped me do it and it worked well solved some tire wear and the DW http://www.4x4xplor.com/alignment.html it is the basic idea for most vehicals.

I hope that helps.

edited becuse the link was wrong correct one now inplace.

I guess I've been on hiatus a little bit here,

I have NOT gotten it aligned yet, tried to get the tires balanced but the shop said it wasn't worth it due to the wear on the tires, they were on tap to be replaced soon anyway. I guess before throw another 60-70 bones down the drain I'm just trying to figure out if it may be something else.

I've been able to sweep the mess under the bed for now (temporarily) by adding a new steering dampener, I know a band aid-I can feel the wobble come and go at times and thankfully the dampener is doing a great job. Up until this point it seems for every two things I fix, another goes haywire, it's like I chasing a damn ghost. ERRRGH

My thought goes to the bushings because everytime I hit a diagonal joint on the highway, the jeep dances a little to the left or to the right depending on which wheel hit first. It's not bad, but it wasn't there 6 months ago! I don't know if it qualifies as 'bumpsteer', my track bar and drag link are parallel, or as parallel as parallel gets on a (my) jeep. If it's a raised bump, the jeep makes a subtle but noticable movement into that side that was first affected. When a drop is encountered, on the road, nothing really happens until I hit the bump on the way back up (that sounds strange, but there's no other way I can explain this right now...)

The only thing I have left to do: Tires, alignment (I've done the poor man's version-I believe it to set properly), balance (see new tires), hubs (they seem nice and tight, no play when I removed them to replace the U-joints and ball joints)-which leaves me very near wits end---what's next?


Also, and this befuddles me: without the new steering dampener, I get the death wobble every time I step on the brakes when I'm traveling more than 60 mph. Is this a warped rotor interacting with the particular component that is causing me problems?

Anybody?!?!?!

There's still a possibility that wheel balance is part of the problem, and also perhaps tread separation or some other fault in a tire. The fact that the problem changed when you swapped tires seems significant.

You mentioned that you did an alignment. You might want to check it again. The factory recommendation is for 0 degrees toe, but I think the 0 degrees is a compromise between the tendency of driven wheels to toe in, and non driven ones to toe out. If you're not using 4WD on the highway, I'd try to err on the side of toe in if there's any doubt or any play.

Roters can be cheep to get but with that you get what you pay for. I bought a set of roters not the cheep ones or the most espensive ones but the ones right inbetween. They have been on my jeep for around 60k (I put them on at 40k and recently jsut pased 100k) miles and show little wear. If it happins alot during breaking it would be worth pulling them off and seting them on a flat surface to see if they are warped.

It's kinda useless to try to troubleshoot a wobble with worn out tires that aren't balanced and no alignment after all the replaced suspension parts. I would recommend taking care of the tire issues.

If that isn't the case, how are your unit hubs?? Do they have any play?

X2 on the tires. Did you ever have them balanced? Some truck tires can actually unload and almost hop off the road.

Note on tires: A lot of shops can't seem to get truck tires right. Here's a check if you think they might be wrong or you get a lot of weight on a rim. After a balance run when they think they have it right, have them loosen the spindle nut on the machine, rotate the tire by hand 1/4 turn, tighten everything up and run the test again. If it needs rebalanced, the machine either can't handle the tire, or they need to mount it on a special hub adapter(tire shops hate doing this. It takes about four times as long to do the job)

regarding rotors: I am planning on having them turned, they weren't the absolute cheepies, but like you said, they aren't top shelf either. I almost wonder if that had something to do with torquing my lugnuts, it appeared immediately after I rotated my tires, I un rotated them, and the problem went away, I also used a lowered torque value. I've since removed and replaced the wheels (did not rotate) and the problem came back, again I used a lower torque value for the lug nuts. I'm thinking I warped the rotors because THAT wobble only happens when braking?!?

Regarding the other wobbles: I totally get the idea behind the uselessness of trouble shooting now, my brother's got an explorer with newer tires, I'll give those a shot and see if that could be the possible problem.

My hubs seem good, no play. I had them off the jeep during ball joint replacement and there did not seem to be any play in them. I've also pushed, pulled, and kicked (hard at times) on the tires in all directions and have noted no play. I will say that there is a squeek coming from my front end that is rythmic and is timed with my speed (I've replaced everything else it could be so I'm guessing it's the hubs), they've got 145,000 miles on them, so they're old and tired, but I'm guess they're not wore ou t(at least not this week)-they also make a bit of a whirling noise again in time with speed (and really only noticable at higher speeds), which I believe to be an indication of them beginning to wear out. I have NOT noted any abnormal or uneven tire wear.

I have balanced the tires, although it has been a while. they've been great tires, they're revos, I got them 5-6 years ago and I've put over 55,000 miles on them-it's time, I'm just going through the heep trying to figure out what's next without "spinning" my tires. I've got a pretty good understanding of what's going on, but I'm at the point where my intelligence stops (literally, I'm done ) and your experience and your intelligence steps in.

OK, so I tried switching tires with the explorer, no dice! The center opening on the explorer rims did not want to fit over whatever flange protrudes into the rim. Oh well...

What I did discover is this:
When I have someone turn the wheel to full lock to the left, the knuckle/axle lock contacted each other before the wheel wanted to stop turning (I don't know if there's a lock in the steering box or what). That being said, there's movement in my axle at while I'm still able to turn the wheel but the knuckles can turn no more. After feeling my way around, I believe that the entire axle is not moving laterally side to side at this time, but rather is rotating about an axis. I felt/saw rotation at the track bar frame mount--no side to side movement at all and I felt movement at the right side (remember I'm turning the wheel to the left) lower control arm bushing (axle end). This bushing movement was not that of looseness but rather that of being stressed. There was no upper control arm bushing movement on that side. As I've posted above, the upper bushings are poly (like) and the lowers are standard rubber.

Two things: 1) I believe that I will replace the lower bushings with the poly counterpart for the lower arms. Hopefully that will stiffen up my front end. I also wonder if this is causing a lot of my highway issues.

2) I also believe that this axle movement as a result of having two locks when turning to the left is a result of my adjustment of the drag link adjustment sleeve. My wheel has been slightly crooked for years-since before I owned it, I adjusted this sleeve so that my wheel would be straighter, well it for the most part is, but by shortening the draglink's total length I've created two stops (actually if I understand correctly, the two stops were sync'd as one, I've simply unsync'd them). Does this sound accurate?

You probably have a tire with a broken belt, or other damage not obvious. Your clue was when you rotated the tires and the problem got much worse.

I chased a DW problem for a year in my 2000 XJ. It had a cheap set of tires on it when I bought it. I got tired of their fast and uneven wear and always having to rotate them. I had replaced 2 of them with the same over a 6 month period. One day I just went to dealer and bought a new set of BFG ATs. I have never felt the DW since that time, 14 monthg ago.

I would stop tweeking the small stuff and pony up for the tires you have already said you need. Then go from there.

point very well taken...