The Economic Consequences of Mr. Bush (very long, interesting read)

[TRNDRVR]

[DrMoab]

Oh yeah, the author is a stupid "Nobel laureate".

Once you said this, I lost all interest.

Obviously it means nothing...they gave Al one.

[TRNDRVR]

Once you said this, I lost all interest.

Obviously it means nothing...they gave Al one.Damn Ryan, You Can't be that stupid...it is impossible...it just can't be.

[8Mud]

When he says stuff like this "Money saved is money not spent. If people don’t spend money, the economic engine stalls" it calls most of his assumptions into question.
Unless you save it under the mattress, it is likely in the Bank and the Bank loans your money to somebody else at interest, to make a profit. The Bank only keeps a rather small percentage of all the savings it has in accounts, it loans out the rest.
Money may move in slightly different directions if people decide to stop spending and save more, but it still moves.

There is a money pit out there someplace sucking up money and hording it in a big way. It may be Iraq is partially to blame, but seriously it has to be more than that.

Funny I've heard the same thing every decade for most of my adult life, about how we are ruining the future, and screwing up the next generation. They've been saying the same thing for the last three or four generations.

[Ronbo]

"Bush’s own fiscal irresponsibility fostered irresponsibility in everyone else."


Bush forced me to sign an adjustable rate mortgage I couldn't afford.
Bush forced me to leverage make-believe equity and purchase second and third homes when I could barely afford one.
Bush forced me to use HELOC's to purchase expensive gas guzzling vehicles I could not purchase any other way, even when gas was $1.75/gal.
Bush maxed out my credit card.

Thank God a Nobel laureate has proof that it's not my fault.


I'm hungry for dinner. I wonder what G is having, I need ideas.

[MT Mike]

Damn Ryan, You Can't be that stupid...it is impossible...it just can't be.

You are right. Ryan can't be that stupid, but YOU can be. Come back crying after the next election when your job is downsized due to the ignorant politics that YOU and your loser spoon fed government lackeys support.

:cry:

Amtrak will die.

[JohnX]

Funny I've heard the same thing every decade for most of my adult life, about how we are ruining the future, and screwing up the next generation. They've been saying the same thing for the last three or four generations.
Funny you should mention this. I was just thinking about my father buying a house when he was my age...on one income with two kids and a third in the oven. Funny how my wife and I both work, both have pretty fair paying jobs (proportionately more than my father made), no children to feed, no debt, and perfect credit....And yet we still cannot afford a house? Something is wrong here. It is getting harder every generation.

I am not complaining, but it sounded like you were trying to say its not happening?

[TRNDRVR]

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

Carry on.

[8Mud]

Funny you should mention this. I was just thinking about my father buying a house when he was my age...on one income with two kids and a third in the oven. Funny how my wife and I both work, both have pretty fair paying jobs (proportionately more than my father made), no children to feed, no debt, and perfect credit....And yet we still cannot afford a house? Something is wrong here. It is getting harder every generation.

I am not complaining, but it sounded like you were trying to say its not happening?


No disagreement from me, it is sure enough different than it used to be. When the US used up much of it's (easy) oil and the conservationists tried there best to slow growth, things changed. The US was forced to go the way Russia did on many social levels. In fact the US is doing many of the things they used to say were the main faults of the Russian system. The state raising there children just to name one, suppressing religion another, a whole list of hypocritical positions.
The US was forced to compete in the world market and needed both spouses working to get it done.
I may be way off here, but it seems to me, the real trouble started when the US dropped the gold standard, at just about the same time as the first Saudi oil embargo. Also just about the time the Viet Nam war ended and it was time to pay for that goat funk.
One of the main differences in the Republicans and the Democrats is the Democrats like to get money moving in new directions, almost as a religion. Tend to add more layers to government, government employees typically vote Democratic. Also the Democrats aren't nearly as anti war as they make themselves out to be. They do seem to get better press though. Both parties are going to find a way to get more money out of your pocket into theirs, no matter if they call it taxes or not.
My philosophy is to take what you have, modify it if necessary, but I tend to avoid tangents. Call me dogmatic, my philosophies fit more closely with the Republicans. To use an analogy, why over engineer something that already works, new isn't necessarily better, it's just new and often untried or unproven.
Don't get me wrong, innovation is necessary, but reorganizing something that works just fine, just for sake of change, is wasting resources.
Modular housing, universal health care and alternate energy sources are a few things that are coming and inevitable, no matter who is in charge.
Oversized cars and oversized houses are likely also a things of the past. I raised three kids in a duplex about half the size of the typical American middle income families house. Typical for Germany and much of Europe, if for no other reason than it's cheaper to heat a smaller house. They also have to cram more people into a smaller area than is normal for the US, there land area is finite, the population growing. They still manage to keep the larger portion of there land area in forests and agriculture, and at the same time seem to find space for industry. Pollution seems to be under control, the population healthy, crime low, the homeless rare and the standard of living (though a bit behind much of the US) is acceptable, for the vast majority. The disparity between the well to do and the marginally successful isn't nearly as great as it is in the US. Much of the wealth seems to be more equally distributed.
It's doable for the US, if they ever manage to get greed under control. I really don't think the Democrats or Republican are up to the task.
Don't get me wrong, Northern Europe has it's problems also. Way to many people get a taste between the manufacturer and the consumer. The price of many items gets way inflated. Way too much bureaucracy, taxes and other faults. The percentage of a persons pay check that goes into health care and the government coffers would seriously shock most US citizens. You are lucky if you get out the door with half your pay check, 60% off the top isn't abnormal. Liberal democracy with a socialist agenda, about like the Democratic party in the US.

[FarmerMatt]

Life is like a box of chocolates... Politician's are like a box of chocolates...

[Gerr]

Life is like a box of chocolates... Politician's are like a box of chocolates...
yeah every once in a while you find one that isn't full of shit

[Kejtar]

Funny you should mention this. I was just thinking about my father buying a house when he was my age...on one income with two kids and a third in the oven. Funny how my wife and I both work, both have pretty fair paying jobs (proportionately more than my father made), no children to feed, no debt, and perfect credit....And yet we still cannot afford a house? Something is wrong here. It is getting harder every generation.

I am not complaining, but it sounded like you were trying to say its not happening?
Actually housing is supply and demand, but... wait a month or two more and I think you'll see a lot of folks bailing from their loans :D

[JohnX]

Actually housing is supply and demand, but... wait a month or two more and I think you'll see a lot of folks bailing from their loans :D
Planning on a year...money in the bank :D

[Kejtar]

Planning on a year...money in the bank :D
Getting back to housing prices: due to the "wisdon" of Mr. Alan Greenspan, the housing market was going nuts before GWB took office. Whatever you want to say about current administration, it has to be mentioned that Greenspan's panicked rate changes (ever quarter and sometimes IIRC twice a quarter without waiting to see effects of those changes.... that IIRC take about 6 months to filter through the economy) have screwed up a lot of things. Towardsthe end of his term he even admitted during one public appearance, during a moment of weaknes, that he changed the rates too often but he never repeated that again.

[Kejtar]

Planning on a year...money in the bank :D
Getting back to housing prices: due to the "wisdon" of Mr. Alan Greenspan, the housing market was going nuts before GWB took office. Whatever you want to say about current administration, it has to be mentioned that Greenspan's panicked rate changes (ever quarter and sometimes IIRC twice a quarter without waiting to see effects of those changes.... that IIRC take about 6 months to filter through the economy) have screwed up a lot of things. Towards the end of his term he even admitted during one public appearance, during a moment of weaknes, that he changed the rates too often but he never repeated that again.
Anyways, Greenspan and one of the big mortgage company presidents (I can't remmber his name) have artificially inflated the housing market prices. Some folks have made bank on it and are sitting pretty. A lot of folks are suffering from the effects of that because of the adjustable mortgage rates, sudden loss of income (and no $ supply for a mortgage payment) or even second loans that paid for a lot of toys for folks that now they can't afford to own and or use.....

[Ironmen77]

I seem to recall awhile (some years) back the government and the press bitchin' about how lending companies weren't lending money to the poor. So, to keep "big brother" out of their business they lowered their lending standards.
These housing problems are a direct result of government sticking their nose in the private sector. The government and the press don't remember demanding that loan companies be more giving. They didn't used to give 110% loans unless you had great credit and steady income.:doh:

[XJEEPER]

You are lucky if you get out the door with half your pay check, 60% off the top isn't abnormal. Liberal democracy with a socialist agenda, about like the Democratic party in the US.

You nailed it Mud, this is exactly what we as citizens need to focus on, as we look at our elected officials. Full blown Socialism is what we're looking at in the future, unless real folks step up and take responsibilty for their own actions and stop expecting the government to solve problems that government, intentionally or unintentionally, helps to create. A huge part of taking responsibility is for the average citizen to take the time to learn about the cause and effect of the decisions that are being made daily by our Congressional and Legislative elect. Getting out and voting intelligently as a Citizen would make a big change. Complacency breeds acceptance, for good or bad.


Giving the sole credit to Bush for our current economic situation takes way too much credit away from the previous administrations, as well as the Legislative Branch, who thrives on pork.....R and D alike. Passing legislation to fix problems in the private sector that will fix themselves, if given time, leads us further down the Socialist path.

We all were created equal, but that doesn't mean that the government should step in and attempt to maintain this equalibrium, regardless of the choices we make. Mankind will never learn to make good decisions in life, if choice and accountablilty are constantly being subsidized by government programs.

[Darky]

I voted for Bush in 2000, would've done it again, but I forgot to make time for voting in 2004. I don't agree with everything he's done. I don't think we should be worrying about opening free trade with Columbia, we've already got it: its called cocaine smuggling. I don't like the tax cuts for the rich, call me weird but I think the majority of taxes ought to come from those with the majority of the money. You're Bill Gates and you make trillions a year. What's 50 million in taxes to you? I make $40k a year, and if I were single I'd be taxed pretty close to $1000 a month. That lowers my take home pay to $28k/year. I use this example because my withholdings haven't hit yet so my first paycheck was taxed at the single rate. What kinda rediculous is that? But as has been said, to lay all the blame for all of our problems on Bush is almost as rediculous as taking some 34% of my pay. I have family who latched onto the whole real estate boom and are living way above their heads. They make more than double what I used to at my last job and yet their the ones who've always had to struggle to pay their bills. Now, the husband has had to take on a second job to pay their bills. He's working some 50 hrs a week, she's working 30 hours a week, paying for a second or third mortgage (bought house 10 yrs ago for $25k now owe over $200k), leasing a $40k minivan, etc etc. I feel for them, wish they weren't in such a bad way, but they did it themselves. Champagne tastes on a imported beer budget. What I see a lot of from the liberal pundits is a refusal to acknowledge personal responsibility.

[DrMoab]

I don't like the tax cuts for the rich, call me weird but I think the majority of taxes ought to come from those with the majority of the money.
The rich already pay 90% of the taxes. I always think its funny that the people who spend the most time bitching about the rich not getting taxed enough are the poor people who either do not pay any taxes at all or actually get some of the tax money that I pay back on top of the money they already do not have to pay.

How bout a fair tax? Say 20% off of everyone...rich, poor and middle class.

[Ironmen77]

The rich already pay 90% of the taxes. I always think its funny that the people who spend the most time bitching about the rich not getting taxed enough are the poor people who either do not pay any taxes at all or actually get some of the tax money that I pay back on top of the money they already do not have to pay.

How bout a fair tax? Say 20% off of everyone...rich, poor and middle class.

x2
http://www.fairtax.org

[Trail-Axe]

It was only a matter of time before the US got involved in the war that the Muslims started. I guess if we did nothing but sit on our seat pads with our minds glued to our favorite night time soap, we would be better off….. WRONG!!!

We might be wishing we had a strong leader with the spine needed to take the fight to the sand box and bring some peace to the Middle East. But, I fear America has very few real men left. Most just sit around and complain about how someone else should do it better, while the real men take all their criticism and press on doing the real work.

Go ahead and flame me, some of you do that quite nicely, and it always given me a good chuckle. I served my time in the Gulf, and still serve this country to this date. So do many of you, and you have my BZ. But to the rest, I say get off your seat warmers and do something other then criticize those doing the job, and the man we elected to lead us.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
- Theodore Roosevelt

[Kejtar]

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
- Theodore Roosevelt
:patriot:

[Darky]

The rich already pay 90% of the taxes. I always think its funny that the people who spend the most time bitching about the rich not getting taxed enough are the poor people who either do not pay any taxes at all or actually get some of the tax money that I pay back on top of the money they already do not have to pay.

How bout a fair tax? Say 20% off of everyone...rich, poor and middle class.
How'd you know I was poor? :) Call me confused or a flip-flopper, but I agree with you as well. I do tend to get all of my money back at the end of the year and I have fun with it. I take care of other bills with it, I reinvest it into the economy on occasion. I like the idea of a flat tax that would make it easier to figure out how much is gonna get taken away out of each check, but I also like giving some of it back to those who need it (ie the poor). I'll be making almost $42k/yr at this new job, but that's still poor enough to get the earned income tax credit as well as some other "bonuses". I could get by without, but I'll glad take it and pay down debts. My main beef with giving tax cuts to the rich, is that they can afford not to get the extra money back. Were I a millionaire, I'd want as much back every year as legally possible, but I wouldn't complain about the money held. Plus, it tends to go to a lot of the big corps that really don't need it.

[Starboard D]

True term limits for Washington politicians would prevent them from ruining the economy, ruining our international reputation, and flushing our children's future down the toilet.... eliminate their retirement accounts, benefits, perks, and other special interest monies that they have access to, and let them live on Social Security and Medicaid... they have been feeding at the public trough long enough!!

Vote the Ba$tards out of office!! :firedevil

[Trail-Axe]

True term limits for Washington politicians would prevent them from ruining the economy, ruining our international reputation, and flushing our children's future down the toilet.... eliminate their retirement accounts, benefits, perks, and other special interest monies that they have access to, and let them live on Social Security and Medicaid... they have been feeding at the public trough long enough!! Vote the Ba$tards out of office!! :firedevil

Your idea may sound like a good idea, but is it really the best one? I want those with experience running the government, not some fool that is just there long enough to learn what needs to be done, and then he is gone. I also don’t want just anyone there, and believe they should not be paid anymore then our military generals and admirals; it should be considered a service, not a place to get rich. So on that point we agree.

But what would work the best is responsible voting. When was the last time you spent a good weekend reading and learning about the candidates, their voting records, and their beliefs? Not many folks do. Many just vote for whom they think might do a better job then the last candidate, and the one with the least amount of political dirt left on them after all the mud slinging is over. Today it seems like any actor can get elected based on popularity, regardless of his experience. The televised media should also be completely banned from any reporting on candidates. The news paper should be the only way they can report on a candidate. No televised debates, no televised smear ads, and no televised drama from any candidate. Let them write it down and make copies of where they stand on the issues, and make it available in print so we can read about them. And only in our language, English.

But what about those who can not read you may ask? Hay, now you are tracking with me. One of the requirements to make an informed decision should be the ability to read and write. If a person never learned how to do that, how in this world can they ever be qualified to vote?

[Ironmen77]

How about two lines at your polling place. One line you can vote and be on your way, the other line you get 5 lottery tickets, but you don't get to vote. That would get a lot of people to the polling place and weed out the people who shouldn't be voting anyway.:laugh3:

[Trail-Axe]

How about two lines at your polling place. One line you can vote and be on your way, the other line you get 5 lottery tickets, but you don't get to vote. That would get a lot of people to the polling place and weed out the people who shouldn't be voting anyway.:laugh3:

I like it.