Gov't Spending

[matt6669]

Well I just got back from the bar after a few and I had gotten into a discussion with a few friends about this so I figured I would pose this question since we all love debating.

Every year America spends tons of money on funding other foreign countries while we here in America can fund our daily activities. Everyday out Countries debt climbs and climbs yet we keep spending money on other people.

So the question is:
What do you think would happen if American turned around tomorrow and cut off all Gov't Spending to foreign countries. No more aid etc etc.

Let the discussion begin:

[GrimmJeeper]

Well I just got back from the bar after a few and I had gotten into a discussion with a few friends about this so I figured I would pose this question since we all love debating.

Every year America spends tons of money on funding other foreign countries while we here in America can fund our daily activities. Everyday out Countries debt climbs and climbs yet we keep spending money on other people.

So the question is:
What do you think would happen if American turned around tomorrow and cut off all Gov't Spending to foreign countries. No more aid etc etc.

Let the discussion begin: the 3rd would would go back to being the 3rd world, most of the global economy would collapse, and everyone would hate us for cutting off the free handouts. other than that, i myself would be exremely happy to see MY America spending billions of dollars that me and MY fellow Americans contribute, on MY fellow Americans! :us:

[Gerr]

it would result in a huge war because we wouldnt be acting as a funding source they would just take it any way they could

[Shorty]

we'd stop spending US tax dollars to build a boarder around Egypt and, maybe start building one where we need one-- around the United States.

[WB9YZU]

You say our countries debt. I assume you mean the amount of money we spend each year to run the Federal Government and send money overseas, and not the GNP, or the trade deficit.

I think if we went isolationist, totally isolationist, and cold turkey at that, it would be a serious breach of a number of diplomatic contracts we have made with a number of foreign countries and the World Bank. That could mean anything from sanctions on US goods sold abroad, to all out war. Remeber that not all "aid" is straight up money. We do a good deal in stuff like trade deals and other stuff that cost us little or nothing as "aid", which are given a "value" to make sure everyone knows what we put on the table.

Besides we usually gain in the long run from offering such aid and loans. That is our political clout with those countries. We get them addicted to not living in squaller, then if they piss us off, we pull out the needle a bit to remind them that since they have no real economy of their own, how close to living in dirt huts and living on lice that they really are.

There is also the benefit to US companies doing business in those countries. If their branch in tim-buck-fudge-nowhere makes money, then the corporation as a whole makes money, and, at least in the old days, that meant more jobs on US soil.

Don't get me wrong, I am not real big on money GIVEN to a foriegn country as aid. I think that all aid should be a loan through the World Bank and that if they want help in addition to that, we should help as advisors, not as the people doing the work or by giving them military equipment.

Ron

[WrenchMonkey]

...i myself would be exremely happy to see MY America spending billions of dollars that me and MY fellow Americans contribute, on MY fellow Americans! :us:

I'd rather the government didn't have the "billions and billions" to begin with.

I'd rather see the people who earned those billions spend it themselves, in their own best interest.

I don't really care whether those billions are wasted trying to "revitalize" a slum in sub-sahara africa, or in downtown new orleans.

But hell, I'm just a heartless prick...

Robert

[dphillips]

We should stop exporting our surplus grain to others. Keep it here to make ethanol, and tell all those OPEC nations and oil companies to go to hell. Let American farmers profit for once. Once half the world is starving they will realize how much aid we do give to everyone. I know that sounds cruel, but I'm all for isolationism. I hate to see billions thrown at other countries by our govt. when we have so many here in the US that are homeless and hugry. It's just not right.

[matt6669]

You say our countries debt. I assume you mean the amount of money we spend each year to run the Federal Government and send money overseas, and not the GNP, or the trade deficit.

I think if we went isolationist, totally isolationist, and cold turkey at that, it would be a serious breach of a number of diplomatic contracts we have made with a number of foreign countries and the World Bank. That could mean anything from sanctions on US goods sold abroad, to all out war. Remeber that not all "aid" is straight up money. We do a good deal in stuff like trade deals and other stuff that cost us little or nothing as "aid", which are given a "value" to make sure everyone knows what we put on the table.

Besides we usually gain in the long run from offering such aid and loans. That is our political clout with those countries. We get them addicted to not living in squaller, then if they piss us off, we pull out the needle a bit to remind them that since they have no real economy of their own, how close to living in dirt huts and living on lice that they really are.

There is also the benefit to US companies doing business in those countries. If their branch in tim-buck-fudge-nowhere makes money, then the corporation as a whole makes money, and, at least in the old days, that meant more jobs on US soil.

Don't get me wrong, I am not real big on money GIVEN to a foriegn country as aid. I think that all aid should be a loan through the World Bank and that if they want help in addition to that, we should help as advisors, not as the people doing the work or by giving them military equipment.

Ron


You do bring up a lot of good points but the thing that I don't agree is we never ever have an effect on pulling out like we think we do. I mean look at France and all the crap that we have done for that country. When we looked at them for help, what did they do turn their backs. The US giving aid to these foreign countries I feel is doing less for us than I think it should. It seems we are putting out tons of effort into other countires and not really getting anything back in return.

Also companies that have branches in bum XXXX no where are using people from bum XXXX no where for 30 cents a day intead of paying the people in the states. I mean shit I call verizon who do i talk to, someone that has no clue about the american language its ridiculous to say the least.

Now I don't think the solution should be an all out shut down foreign aid but I really think that nothing bad would come from us cutting a LARGE portion of our foreign aid.

For instance, I am all for war, I don't like it but I am for it because it has to happen and you'll never get around that fact. But the amount of money that we are spending right now for this war and to "revitialize" that area is CRAZY. No only are we spending tons of money but we have lots tons of men and we also have a large amount of our military across the seas thus making us in a desperate situation back at home. but thats another discussion.


Wheres the big guys on gov't debate like 5-90 I know you have some good stuff to say!!

[BruceB83]

I'm all for pulling foreign aid and letting everybody really see how much we positively affect the rest of the world. But unfortunately, like Ron said, we can't do that right now because there is too much commitment. Not to mention that slime-ball politicians who are only in it for personal power and benefit don't care enough about it. I mean it doesn't affect them, they're old, they're wealthy, they don't care enough to do anything. Sure, they can sit here and blow smoke up our tails and get a vote by telling us they care about a particular issue but until something actually profound gets changed about it...it's all smoke and mirrors.

But anyways, yes I am for pulling funding. Maybe not all the way but definitely having it re-evaluated. I'm not 100% sure on this but how many countries offered to help us when Katrina hit??? I'm thinking it's a big goose egg.

It's not just foreign funding that's ridiculously out of control. It makes me sick to look at the budget, even at a local level, and see all the BS waste spending that goes on. The government spends money like it can print more, I know I know...they sort of can, but there is not a good monitoring system for spending. There is nobody to "pull back the reigns" on these people and eliminate waste. THAT, is the problem.

[The Hard Struggler]

I'd rather the government didn't have the "billions and billions" to begin with.

I'd rather see the people who earned those billions spend it themselves, in their own best interest.

I don't really care whether those billions are wasted trying to "revitalize" a slum in sub-sahara africa, or in downtown new orleans.

But hell, I'm just a heartless prick...

RobertMy thoughts exactly! The government wastes BILLIONS of OUR money! Great thread for April 3............ only 12 more days!:mad:

[matt6669]

definitely a good topic and some definite good points brought up.

I wish there was a way for it to happen but I doubt ill see it in my lifetime and I'm only 23.

I might be starting another topic shortly after a heated discussion I got into with my environmental protection teacher who thought that growing corn for ethanol was a horrible idea. Needless to say this got us off topics for about a half an hour I think i might bring the topic but up but need to do more research on it.

[5-90]

definitely a good topic and some definite good points brought up.

I wish there was a way for it to happen but I doubt ill see it in my lifetime and I'm only 23.

I might be starting another topic shortly after a heated discussion I got into with my environmental protection teacher who thought that growing corn for ethanol was a horrible idea. Needless to say this got us off topics for about a half an hour I think i might bring the topic but up but need to do more research on it.

I wouldn't say it's a "horrible" idea - but it's definitely "bad." Using EtOH as an engine fuel is an "energy negative" process - we actually use slightly more energy in manufacturing and distribution than we get from combustion of the fuel.

Switching to methane would probably be better, and would be an "energy positive" fuel (I think - I'm not sure,) but it's been shown over and over again that using EtOH and MeOH are both "energy negative" processes - the only advantage to using MeOH over EtOH is the fact that MeOH can be made from waste cellulose (the rest of the plant...) instead of diverting food grains to production. This makes it a bit less "energy negative" than EtOH - and does give us a means to get more energy out of the food growing process, and an effective use of waste material. Switching farming equipment to run on, say, M50-M75 would be a positive step (you have to retain some percentage of gasoline to keep it a net "energy positive" fuel.)

As far as government spending goes, here's what I think.

Foreign Aid should be on a quid pro quo basis, where possible. We help you out, you do something for us later. You don't, and we don't help you next time.

Foreign Trade should not be running a massive deficit. Therefore, it should likewise be on a quid prop quo basis - spending should be balanced to within, say, two percent of the gross total. If the Pacific Rim wants to sell to us, they have to buy from us as well.

Elected officials should not be paid at all - or worst case, paid a stipend for office expenses and the like. They should not be paid directly - most of them are independently wealthy anyhow (which is why they have the time to campaign.) Get rid of the recesses - let them work fifty weeks or so a year like the rest of us (putting in 40-50 hours per week. It's gotten to be too much of a cush job.) Middle management can be largely eliminated entirely - which would reduce government spending. Paying someone who is not producing anything useful only presents a drain on the economy - paying taxes yields largely the same result.

Welfare? If you can work, do so. If you've got a skill, you can put it to use. If you don't, it doesn't take any special skill to push a broom or an idiot stick. If you don't like it, get a job. Enough sitting on your arse (this idea does not apply to a valid physical or mental disability that prevents one from working. I don't expect you to push an idiot stick if you're shy a leg, but I've seen some amputees that work harder than the able-bodied...)

These steps should allow for a significant reduction of the tax burden, which will help the economy (more money in circulation.)

If you don't vote, do. Bond issues should be voted down out of hand - not only are they rife with overruns, but if you can't find the money for the project you'll have to cut the fat somewhere else. Pay rises for Congresscritters should be voted upon by the body politic, so we can keep track of what they're doing and what they're getting paid to do it. And, Congresscritters should not have a better retirement package than the people who protect them in uniform...

I honestly think domestic government spending is worse the foreign, so we should start here. The trade deal isn't strictly "government spending" in se, but it could become subject to a governmental control by policy (about time Congresscritters passed a law that actually helps, it's been a while...)

How about those for discussion points and qualifications?

[matt6669]

I knew you would finally see this Jon.

I knew you would bring light to a lot of things and I must go and reply to your response on corn but to this topic

I definitely agree that there are many things wrong with our govt and your absolutely correct that being in congress has become such a cush job and people are taking those positions for granted.

The thing that I am worried about mostly is if Obama or Clinton get into office. If this happens we are going to see a huge spending and taxing situation fall into our hands. The next thing is this crazy medical insurance for everybody thing. We can't even control our social security and now they want to add medical insurance on top of it.

Honestly the US has become soft. It no longer is the stronger will survive, its now become the stronger will pay for hte weak that can't or don't want to support themselves.

[JNickel101]

Call me heartless, but the first thing I want to see go is the $900 billion or whatever we spend every year to fight AIDS....IN AFRICA.

We send an ungodly amount of money there to fight AIDS in places that should just be quarantined (or delt with like they did in "Outbreak"). First problem they have there is the spread of the disease. Let Africa destroy itself, then we can have all of their oil...

[Ironmen77]

Also companies that have branches in bum XXXX no where are using people from bum XXXX no where for 30 cents a day intead of paying the people in the states. I mean shit I call verizon who do i talk to, someone that has no clue about the american language its ridiculous to say the least.


SAN ANTONIO, Texas (Reuters) - The head of the top U.S. phone company AT&T Inc (T.N) said on Wednesday it was having trouble finding enough skilled workers to fill all the 5,000 customer service jobs it promised to return to the United States from India.
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"We're having trouble finding the numbers that we need with the skills that are required to do these jobs," AT&T Chief Executive Randall Stephenson told a business group in San Antonio, where the company's headquarters is located.
So far, only around 1,400 jobs have been returned to the United States of 5,000, a target it set in 2006, the company said, adding that it maintains the target.
Stephenson said he is especially distressed that in some U.S. communities and among certain groups, the high school dropout rate is as high as 50 percent.
"If I had a business that half the product we turned out was defective or you couldn't put into the marketplace, I would shut that business down," he said.
Gone are the days when AT&T and other U.S. companies had to hire locally, he said.
"We're able to do new product engineering in Bangalore as easily as we're able to do it in Austin, Texas," he said, referring to the Indian city where many international companies have "outsourced" technical and customer support workers.
"I know you don't like hearing that, but that's the way it is," he said.
Stephenson said neither he nor most Americans liked the situation, and the solution was a stronger U.S. focus on education and keeping jobs. Business needed to help, such as AT&T's repatriation of service positions and education grants, he added.
(Reporting by Jim Forsyth; Editing by Gary Hill)

[5-90]

Education is a problem - and I honestly think that the whole PC movement is to blame (mainly.)

We "revise" history so as to not offend anyone.

We focus on "accommodating" everyone - to the point of multi-lingual education.

We don't want to "hurt someone's feelings," so we end up promoting him to the next grade. Whether he is fit or not (cf. "social promotion".)

Throw in the focus on courses in "business," "economics," and all the other attempts to create execs, and we get kids who don't want to work in the first place. Taking out courses in trades was, IMO, a huge mistake! I know they can be had at various community colleges and suchlike, but removing them from primary education should never have happened.

Teach courses in English only (if you don't know English, make learning that your first order of business...) bring back 'shop' classes, and teach things as they are, not as we wish them to be. That would be a good start...

[matt6669]

Why would you want to work for a company like AT&T after they had sooooo many employees who worked for them and then they shysted them by outsourcing jobs to a foreign company b/c it would yield the company a higher profit.

But of course thats not the only problem the problem is my generation are a for the most part a bunch of spoiled punks. They have no clue what it is to work a day in their life. They all have the attitude that if your not going to pay me xxx then guess what the guy down the street will so see ya later. And its horrible that is how this country has become.

Honestly the only way I see change coming is a complete total collapse of the system. I have no idea what that will bring on but I don't see a change happening any other way. Theres going to have to be a shut down unemployment or some sorts. Make the way to collect money harder. I'm not talking about the people who worked for a living and got their jobs out sourced. I'm talking about scummy scum who worked at the job long enough to collect unemployment and is no mooching off of it.

The US really needs to go back to the days of everyone doing every job. From person A picking up garbage to person B doing a roofing job etc etc. People need to know that they arn't above the system they are the system.

But I do agree 5-90 that computers have had a HUGE impact without a doubt. I see it every day and I'm even a suspect to it every now and then. Computers have turned us into lazy SOBs I see kids at my school who spend hours upon hours sitting playing WOW and games of the alike. some kids only go outside to go to dinner and class im like holy crap.

And there needs to be a huge change in the education system. I'm tired of this everyone is a winner bullcrap and I am especially tired this whole multi lingual crap in the schools. I've become to the point that the school I go to I am a minority and everyone around me speaks a different language. If i walk past someone and they are blabbing away to someone whether in person or on the phone in another langague i just yell speak english. Thats one big petpeeve i have I can't stand that crap.

[JNickel101]

Education is a problem - and I honestly think that the whole PC movement is to blame (mainly.)

We "revise" history so as to not offend anyone.

We focus on "accommodating" everyone - to the point of multi-lingual education.

We don't want to "hurt someone's feelings," so we end up promoting him to the next grade. Whether he is fit or not (cf. "social promotion".)

Throw in the focus on courses in "business," "economics," and all the other attempts to create execs, and we get kids who don't want to work in the first place. Taking out courses in trades was, IMO, a huge mistake! I know they can be had at various community colleges and suchlike, but removing them from primary education should never have happened.

Teach courses in English only (if you don't know English, make learning that your first order of business...) bring back 'shop' classes, and teach things as they are, not as we wish them to be. That would be a good start...

x Eleventy billion and four....

Best thing i heard was a few weeks ago when that judge sentenced that guy (or it might have been more than one) to "learn English, get your GED and get a job that's beneficial to society - you have one year, or you go to jail. Ready, Go!

[matt6669]

x Eleventy billion and four....

Best thing i heard was a few weeks ago when that judge sentenced that guy (or it might have been more than one) to "learn English, get your GED and get a job that's beneficial to society - you have one year, or you go to jail. Ready, Go!

But thats the other problem, were making jail better than living on the streets. Since when do we have to provide all this crap for people living in a jail. Its ridiculous people in a jail live better than they should. But it goes with this whole going soft bullshit.

The problem is you get sentenced to jail and its not really a punishment anymore, there needs to be some form of punishment. People need to be made examples of.

I've always loved the ron white joke he does, if your seen by 3 or more people causing a heinous crime you don't sit on death row bub, no you go straight to the front of the line. Other states are abolishing the death penalty, mines putting in an express lane.

And its the truth just recenetly NJ abolished the death penalty. Instead of looing at the system going hey the way its set up right now isn't working lets fix it, NO lets just abolish it and that rids of the problem. So now we have scum of the earth who should of been rided from society now living off of my hard earned money living in jail for the rest of his life.

I forget where I heard it but it was something like 10 years ago California spent 2x the amount of money on education as they did on the cost to run their prisions. Current day those numbers are now equal. They say in the next 5-10 years its going to do a reverse and they will spend 2x the amount on prisons. THATS FREAKING RIDICULOUS. The whole jail system gets me revved up to. they got this new law thing that says you commit something like the same crime 3 times you go to jail for life. Instead of it being you go to jail for life, you should just be sentenced to death. Obviously you are a drain on this world and you are providing NOTHING to this country so why should you be allowed to live here. You shouldn't, inject him and be done with it. Theres no reason our prisons should be as over crowded as they are.

Blehh I wish i had more time to do research about all of this stuff because it really gets me going and I only know the tip of the iceberg. Maybe someday after college I will have more time to do research.

[5-90]

x Eleventy billion and four....

Best thing i heard was a few weeks ago when that judge sentenced that guy (or it might have been more than one) to "learn English, get your GED and get a job that's beneficial to society - you have one year, or you go to jail. Ready, Go!

Really? Got a news cite? I'd like to hang on to that one for chuckles myself. Kinda like the judge in LA that sentenced a batch of kids (they were going around blasting that ghetto crap...) to buy four hours' worth of Vivaldi and they had to listen to it at the PD. The logic? "If you want to make someone else listen to what you like, I can do the same."

On the laziness problem - I don't think it's computers entirely to blame. cf. the "millenials" post that Beej did in a recent thread on work ethics. We've raised all these kids to think they're "entitled" to damn near everything, without telling them just why they should be entitled to anything at all, just why they're special, or just what they should do to actually earn something.

This "no losers" mentality doesn't help things, either. Someone has to win, someone has to lose, and that's just the way the world works.

[GrimmJeeper]

when i was living in ohio a guy with a loud stereo got sentenced to 1 year of wayne newton. if he was heard listening to anything else he would serve 2 years for disturbing the peace :roflmao:

[GrimmJeeper]

We've raised all these kids to think they're "entitled" to damn near everything, without telling them just why they should be entitled to anything at all, just why they're special, or just what they should do to actually earn something. EXACTLY. my father taught me long ago that everything you enjoy in life is a priveledge, not a right. you live a good life if you are a good person. if not, things you take for granted get taken away. i think the problem is everyone is afraid or unwilling to dicipline thier kids these days. i have a buddy from work who had the police kick his door in and arrest him because he told his son "pick your grades up or im going to kick your ass" and his son told the teacher, and the teacher said he was "threatening a child". that is just ridiculous. when my dad told me he was going to kick my ass, i did everything i could to not let that happen! i knew damn well he would KICK MY ASS.

kids are too pampered these days, plain and simple. at least my kids behave themselves... because they know when i start getting mad the spankings and yelling arent too far off.

[RichP]

Stop paying Iraq for gas and diesel and jet fuel, let them contribute to the war effort, hell we, the taxpayer, are paying more per gallon there then many states here.
Remove the instant retirement from congress and the senate after one term, if they get elected for 20+ years let them retire on a GS-10 or 12 salary. Quit making it so financially rewarding to be elected. Restrict them to the 'none growing seasons' to be in session.
While in office let them get the same medical care as an active duty military AND IN THE SAME FACILITIES.

[BruceB83]

Education is a problem - and I honestly think that the whole PC movement is to blame (mainly.)

We "revise" history so as to not offend anyone.

We focus on "accommodating" everyone - to the point of multi-lingual education.

We don't want to "hurt someone's feelings," so we end up promoting him to the next grade. Whether he is fit or not (cf. "social promotion".)

Throw in the focus on courses in "business," "economics," and all the other attempts to create execs, and we get kids who don't want to work in the first place. Taking out courses in trades was, IMO, a huge mistake! I know they can be had at various community colleges and suchlike, but removing them from primary education should never have happened.

Teach courses in English only (if you don't know English, make learning that your first order of business...) bring back 'shop' classes, and teach things as they are, not as we wish them to be. That would be a good start...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/BruceB83/Misc/hammer_nail.jpg

Couldn't have said it any better. I was going to continue in my first post by bashing our poor education system and go on to basically what you said...but I didn't.

They need all of those classes....they need the business type courses so they can begin to understand how business works. I think if you get a good grasp on that, you begin to understand ALOT more of the important topics. People complaining about things such as right now saying the stock market is REALLY bad...it's not...it's in a period of slow GROWTH but most people don't understand that stuff. In turn, that affects how they vote so it's very important.

Also, they need shop so they can begin to gain a mechanical understanding of how things work. I realize not everybody is "mechanically inclined" but that's not what I'm saying. I just think having a basic mechanical understanding whether it's woodworking, metal working, or just learning basic household things increases the value of a person by making them more well-rounded. I feel blessed that my dad was one of those types of guys because I myself am like that too now. He is a systems engineer for computers but he can rebuild a motor, run cable TV cabling through a house, fix a leaky faucet, anything, just name it and he can probably do it. I don't see too many of the kids/teens growing up right now being able to do the same thing when they are adults. It all starts with the education system.

[JNickel101]

Stop paying Iraq for gas and diesel and jet fuel, let them contribute to the war effort, hell we, the taxpayer, are paying more per gallon there then many states here.
Remove the instant retirement from congress and the senate after one term, if they get elected for 20+ years let them retire on a GS-10 or 12 salary. Quit making it so financially rewarding to be elected. Restrict them to the 'none growing seasons' to be in session.
While in office let them get the same medical care as an active duty military AND IN THE SAME FACILITIES.

Amen...

Just a perspective....I was in Bahrain not too long ago....we filled up our truck at a local petrol station....

lets just say this - imagine filling up your 20 gallon XJ tank for $6. Yep....

As for the sentence thing 5-90, here ya go....

http://www.witntv.com/news/headlines/17113801.html

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/National%20News/3-sentenced-to-learn-English-or-go-to-jail

quite a few articles out there on this....

[RichP]

Amen...

Just a perspective....I was in Bahrain not too long ago....we filled up our truck at a local petrol station....

lets just say this - imagine filling up your 20 gallon XJ tank for $6. Yep....

As for the sentence thing 5-90, here ya go....

http://www.witntv.com/news/headlines/17113801.html

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/National%20News/3-sentenced-to-learn-English-or-go-to-jail

quite a few articles out there on this....

Yup, I liked it, I also liked that black judge down in Georgia that talked to his black defendants, he should not have stopped there, he should give that same speech to EVERY IDIOT that appears in front of him.
Anybody remember the 'scared straight' program of years ago ? It worked till the ACUL fought it and won.

[5-90]

Amen...

Just a perspective....I was in Bahrain not too long ago....we filled up our truck at a local petrol station....

lets just say this - imagine filling up your 20 gallon XJ tank for $6. Yep....

As for the sentence thing 5-90, here ya go....

http://www.witntv.com/news/headlines/17113801.html

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/National%20News/3-sentenced-to-learn-English-or-go-to-jail

quite a few articles out there on this....

Nice - I just needed a jumping-off point for research.

Does this judge have a fan club? I may have to start one! Not only is he helping keep incarcerees from becoming overcrowded, but he seems to sentence people consistent with the need to help them succeed in society! "Reform, not punishment" looks like the watchword here. Pity more judges don't do that.

As far as the lawyers who are trying to find out if the sentence is "legal" - as far as I'm concerned, they can either take another course in social ethics, or they can do time in the lockup. I honestly don't care of the requirement to learn English and get your GED is legal or not - it's keeping prison/jail population down (if they co-operate,) and it's going to be more of a help for them than just locking them up for two years will.