Sierra Club "logic...?"

[5-90]

Forwarded to me as a joke, but is it really?

----- SNIP -----

Subject: The Sierra Club and the US Forest Service


A few years ago, the Sierra Club and the US Forest Service were presenting an alternative to Wyoming ranchers for controlling the coyote population. It seems that after years of the ranchers using the tried and true methods of shooting and/or trapping the predator, the tree-huggers had a "more humane" solution. What they proposed was for the animals to be captured alive, the males castrated and let loose again and the population would be controlled. This was ACTUALLY proposed to the Wyoming Wool and Sheep Grower's Association by the Sierra Club and the USFS.

All of the ranchers thought about this amazing idea for a couple of minutes.

Finally, an old boy in the back stood up, tipped his hat back and said, "Son, I don't think you understand the problem. Those coyotes ain't screwin' our sheep - they're eatin' 'em."

----- SNIP -----

5-90

[XJ_Vikings]

hah.

god i hate hippies

[bjoehandley]

Sounds like a group Dad had to deal with at at the railroad before he "retired." They found the shell of a small turtle that had been cut in half by the wheel flange of a train so they wanted the RR to put ramps and a bridge every few hundred feet in one section of track so the "local" population of small turtles (that Dad and his rail gang never seen before in that area, but they've managed to find and want protected) could get over the rail head and get to the water on the other side of the right of way without trying to get on top of tracks (12" or so from ballast to top of railhead) that the turtles are too small (I think it was 10" nose to tail) to even get on top of without a highway crossing or human help (think coins on a track.)

[red91]

Sierra Club + Logic = Oxymoron 10*

[8Mud]

Long story short, I had a permit to hunt Coyotes in the Santa Monica mountains. UCLA biology department asked me to save some body parts, stomach contents etc. One thing lead to another and I found myself on Condor watch in the mountains above Gorman.
The conservation types managed to shrink the Gorman off road recreational area. The Jeep roads gradually disappeared as the brush grew over them. The State was unwilling to pay a tractor to cut new roads (the conservationists were against this anyway). The next big fire, most of the remaining Condors died, because the Fire trucks couldn't get to them.
I watched the whole thing happen, sitting on a hill top, on my trail bike. Borate drops, wet the birds down and the Borate stuck there feathers together so they couldn't get off the ground. Cats trying to cut through 15 foot high brush, couldn't get into the area fast enough to wet down the hillsides and try to save at least a few birds.
Another side affect of shutting down the area to off roaders, was the disappearance of Quail, Dove (seed eaters), rabbits and the Deer population (grass eaters). Little weed or grass grows in the brush, it used to do right well on the verges of the Jeep trails.
I tried to tell the conservationists, that one major reason the Condors were doing so poorly, was because of the ranches on the other side of the mountain. The ranch country was mostly Savana due to the weather shadow from the mountains and was the natural haunt of the Condors. They moved to the brush side of the mountain, because of the lack of cadavors on the Savana side. Not many dead animals on the Savana side of the mountain, the beef ranchers thinned the Deer herds down to help control parasites and disease, beef cattle rarley died on the range. I suggested mulching the brush and adding Lime to promote grass growth (making meadows). The Condors need the open areas anyway as takeoff and landing areas. The conservationists looked at me like I was brain dead, they were covinced the problem was too much human traffic in the Condor areas. The only California Condors left are now in the San Diego Zoo.
I honestly believe, more offroad traffic (inhibiting brush growth some) might have helped the Condors survive and/or buying the Ranches on the other side of the mountain and encouraging the Deer herds (and other game animals) to grow and restore the game balance some, might have helped.
The conservationists are probably still convinced the problem is human intervention. They often fail to relize an ecology is what it is and any changes are going to mess with the balance. Closing an area to traffic can have as profound an impact, as leaving it open.
Working with the conservationists, kind of reminds me of the Coyote screwing the sheep, some of those gals were right accomodating.:lickout:
Most of them seemed agenda oriented (blinded by theory) and rarley tried to grasp the big picture.

[XJ Dreamin']

A few years ago, the Sierra Club and the US Forest Service were presenting

...presenting...? Together?! The Sierra Club and the Forest Service, togther? I call :bs:


As far as that idea coming from the Sierra Club...sure. I got no problem believing that.

[XJ Dreamin']

Long story short, I had a permit to hunt Coyotes in the Santa Monica mountains. UCLA biology department asked me to save some body parts, stomach contents etc. One thing lead to another and I found myself on Condor watch in the mountains above Gorman.
The conservation types managed to shrink the Gorman off road recreational area. The Jeep roads gradually disappeared as the brush grew over them. The State was unwilling to pay a tractor to cut new roads (the conservationists were against this anyway). The next big fire, most of the remaining Condors died, because the Fire trucks couldn't get to them.
I watched the whole thing happen, sitting on a hill top, on my trail bike. Borate drops, wet the birds down and the Borate stuck there feathers together so they couldn't get off the ground. Cats trying to cut through 15 foot high brush, couldn't get into the area fast enough to wet down the hillsides and try to save at least a few birds.
Another side affect of shutting down the area to off roaders, was the disappearance of Quail, Dove (seed eaters), rabbits and the Deer population (grass eaters). Little weed or grass grows in the brush, it used to do right well on the verges of the Jeep trails.
I tried to tell the conservationists, that one major reason the Condors were doing so poorly, was because of the ranches on the other side of the mountain. The ranch country was mostly Savana due to the weather shadow from the mountains and was the natural haunt of the Condors. They moved to the brush side of the mountain, because of the lack of cadavors on the Savana side. Not many dead animals on the Savana side of the mountain, the beef ranchers thinned the Deer herds down to help control parasites and disease, beef cattle rarley died on the range. I suggested mulching the brush and adding Lime to promote grass growth (making meadows). The Condors need the open areas anyway as takeoff and landing areas. The conservationists looked at me like I was brain dead, they were covinced the problem was too much human traffic in the Condor areas. The only California Condors left are now in the San Diego Zoo.
I honestly believe, more offroad traffic (inhibiting brush growth some) might have helped the Condors survive and/or buying the Ranches on the other side of the mountain and encouraging the Deer herds (and other game animals) to grow and restore the game balance some, might have helped.
The conservationists are probably still convinced the problem is human intervention. They often fail to relize an ecology is what it is and any changes are going to mess with the balance. Closing an area to traffic can have as profound an impact, as leaving it open.
Working with the conservationists, kind of reminds me of the Coyote screwing the sheep, some of those gals were right accomodating.:lickout:
Most of them seemed agenda oriented (blinded by theory) and rarley tried to grasp the big picture.

The decline of the condor was just as you say - the decline of natural browser populations. Browser range and cattle range always overlap.

The Sierra Club is always telling the FS to return the forest to its natural state. The FS would be happy to oblige if they could figure out what that is. Before the FS, forest in the Southeast was wasteland due to logging. Before logging it was jungle due to a lack of mangement following the "departure" of the Native Americans, and before the Native Americans it was Pleistocene boreal. So, what do you want? What natural state? If you stop doing anything at this point, it will not turn out the way you expect. The FS is happy to manage the forest to whatever future desired condition you want, but you got to be more specific than "natural state."

[5-90]

Forwarded to me as a joke ...

[QUOTE=XJ Dreamin']...presenting...? Together?! The Sierra Club and the Forest Service, togther? [/QUOTE.

I did put a disclaimer at the beginning of the post. Do please read the WHOLE thing...

I suppose such an unholy alliance may be theoretically possible, but I'd liken it to the NRA and ACLU actually agreeing on the existence of NAMBLA as an "inalienable right" or somesuch...

5-90

[XJ Dreamin']

[quote=XJ Dreamin']...presenting...? Together?! The Sierra Club and the Forest Service, togther? [/QUOTE.

I did put a disclaimer at the beginning of the post. Do please read the WHOLE thing...

I suppose such an unholy alliance may be theoretically possible, but I'd liken it to the NRA and ACLU actually agreeing on the existence of NAMBLA as an "inalienable right" or somesuch...

5-90

Certainly, BS on the story - not you.

The FS does manage quite a bit of range land, and the topic of coyotes would certainly come up. It's more likely that the Sierra Club's idea was pitched to the shepards and FS as an alternative to their plan to just shoot them all. Same three players - just redraw the lines defining who's grouped with whom.

ps - Yes, I see that I should have quoted as 'originally forwarded to' 5-90. sorry.

[5-90]

Thank you - I didn't think I'd missed anything, but I wanted to be sure.

5-90

[Dirt]

Long story short, I had a permit to hunt Coyotes in the Santa Monica mountains. UCLA biology department asked me to save some body parts, stomach contents etc. One thing lead to another and I found myself on Condor watch in the mountains above Gorman.
The conservation types managed to shrink the Gorman off road recreational area. The Jeep roads gradually disappeared as the brush grew over them. The State was unwilling to pay a tractor to cut new roads (the conservationists were against this anyway). The next big fire, most of the remaining Condors died, because the Fire trucks couldn't get to them.
I watched the whole thing happen, sitting on a hill top, on my trail bike. Borate drops, wet the birds down and the Borate stuck there feathers together so they couldn't get off the ground. Cats trying to cut through 15 foot high brush, couldn't get into the area fast enough to wet down the hillsides and try to save at least a few birds.
Another side affect of shutting down the area to off roaders, was the disappearance of Quail, Dove (seed eaters), rabbits and the Deer population (grass eaters). Little weed or grass grows in the brush, it used to do right well on the verges of the Jeep trails.
I tried to tell the conservationists, that one major reason the Condors were doing so poorly, was because of the ranches on the other side of the mountain. The ranch country was mostly Savana due to the weather shadow from the mountains and was the natural haunt of the Condors. They moved to the brush side of the mountain, because of the lack of cadavors on the Savana side. Not many dead animals on the Savana side of the mountain, the beef ranchers thinned the Deer herds down to help control parasites and disease, beef cattle rarley died on the range. I suggested mulching the brush and adding Lime to promote grass growth (making meadows). The Condors need the open areas anyway as takeoff and landing areas. The conservationists looked at me like I was brain dead, they were covinced the problem was too much human traffic in the Condor areas. The only California Condors left are now in the San Diego Zoo.
I honestly believe, more offroad traffic (inhibiting brush growth some) might have helped the Condors survive and/or buying the Ranches on the other side of the mountain and encouraging the Deer herds (and other game animals) to grow and restore the game balance some, might have helped.
The conservationists are probably still convinced the problem is human intervention. They often fail to relize an ecology is what it is and any changes are going to mess with the balance. Closing an area to traffic can have as profound an impact, as leaving it open.
Working with the conservationists, kind of reminds me of the Coyote screwing the sheep, some of those gals were right accomodating.:lickout:
Most of them seemed agenda oriented (blinded by theory) and rarley tried to grasp the big picture.


You just went entirely against the "keeping a long story short" rules.

[8Mud]

Guilty !!! Next time I'll lead with to make a short story long. :)

[XJ Dreamin']

You just went entirely against the "keeping a long story short" rules.

Come on. For 8Mud, that was short :laugh2:

[XJ Dreamin']

Thank you - I didn't think I'd missed anything, but I wanted to be sure.

5-90

Proper citation is what I'm all about :thumbup:

[karstic]

Just to let you know condors have been reintroduced into the wild (Los Padres NF). They're one of the reasons for the enviroclowns trying to ban lead ammunition.

[5-90]

Just to let you know condors have been reintroduced into the wild (Los Padres NF). They're one of the reasons for the enviroclowns trying to ban lead ammunition.

Piffle. All right - if I shoot an enviro-nazi, I'll be sure to use bismuth shot, a Barnes solid bullet (which is some sort of copper alloy in the larger calibres,) or maybe sintered zinc in a small calibre. That should make them happy...

5-90

[goodburbon]

Yeah, any species intelligent enough to scrounge tiny lead chunks from the ground are certainly fit to survive in the long run.:wierd:

[XJ Dreamin']

Piffle. All right - if I shoot an enviro-nazi, I'll be sure to use bismuth shot, a Barnes solid bullet (which is some sort of copper alloy in the larger calibres,) or maybe sintered zinc in a small calibre. That should make them happy...

5-90

Why not spent uranium?

[XJ Dreamin']

Yeah, any species intelligent enough to scrounge tiny lead chunks from the ground are certainly fit to survive in the long run.:wierd:

They ingest the shot when they eat the carcasses of birds not collected by irresponsible shooters.

[5-90]

Why not spent uranium.

Because I don't have access to spent uranium. The rest of the stuff I can either get (like Barnes bullets or bismuth No-Tox shotshells) or make (I can get powdered zinc from some pyro houses, and I can made a mould for sintering...)

You know where I can get depleted uranium, machined to order? Or, should I go "whole hawg" and go for neutronium or even pure unobtanium...?

Damn government won't let us buy anything fun - how about using 30m/m GAU-8/A APFSDSDU or some 25/m Oerlikon rounds?:rattle: :rattle: :rattle:

5-90

[XJ Dreamin']

Because I don't have access to spent uranium. The rest of the stuff I can either get (like Barnes bullets or bismuth No-Tox shotshells) or make (I can get powdered zinc from some pyro houses, and I can made a mould for sintering...)

You know where I can get depleted uranium, machined to order? Or, should I go "whole hawg" and go for neutronium or even pure unobtanium...?

Damn government won't let us buy anything fun - how about using 30m/m GAU-8/A APFSDSDU or some 25/m Oerlikon rounds?:rattle: :rattle: :rattle:

5-90

What's the biggest gattling you can get your hands on?

[5-90]

Hell man - I can probably build a cannon if I need to (and I've been thinking about doing it for a while - perhaps a blackpowder job, say, 4"?)

With a little digging, crank gatlings can be had - and I've seen them go in both .22LR and .45-70 - probably most straight-wall calibres in between, as long as they have a rim to grab (.45 Long Colt, anyone? How about .45-120, or the various .50 calibre blackpowder rimmed rounds?) I might have plans for a Gatling in the Archives somewhere, but I doubt it (I do have plans for quite a few USG and NATO issue receivers, tho...)

5-90

[karstic]

They ingest the shot when they eat the carcasses of birds not collected by irresponsible shooters.

Um NO they want to ban lead RIFLE bullets cause of gut piles left behind in condor range.

[XJ Dreamin']

Um NO they want to ban lead RIFLE bullets cause of gut piles left behind in condor range.

Who shoots anything in the gut?

[goodburbon]

Sarcasm is just so hard to catch when you're reading.

sigh.

[XJ Dreamin']

I had read about the ingested shot in winged and lost birds as a source of lead poisoning in carrion eating birds some years ago. That report was not specific as to species. I had not heard of rifle bullets as a specific threat to condors, although I can see where one bullet retained in the crop over a period of time could be a problem.

Perhaps my gut shot remark deserved a smiley to mark it as something of a joke. OTOH, if you've made a clean shot, recovery of the bullet should not be that difficult. I have nothing against hunting, but I have little sympathy for poor hunter etiquette. Just as poor driver etequette can lead to trail closures, poor hunter etequette can lead to adverse legislation. It hunters have been leaving lead behind in gut piles, then those hunters are at fault. It's their responsibility to see that their actions do not adversely impact other hunters.

[XJ Dreamin']

So, 5-90,

50 cal. is always appealing. I also have a fetish for historical chamberings. I don't suppose conservationists move too fast, so rate of fire isn't a significant issue.

ps - I knew 'spent' was wrong when I typed it :twak:

[5-90]

So, 5-90,

50 cal. is always appealing. I also have a fetish for historical chamberings. I don't suppose conservationists move too fast, so rate of fire isn't a significant issue.

ps - I knew 'spent' was wrong when I typed it :twak:

Yeah, but .50 is still a little small. Gimme something like .600NE - or even an H&H double in .700NE. If I want to whack someone, I'd prefer to whack them good and hard. The .700" pill may not go too fact, but it will probably stop a truck (and, since it's derived from the .600NE, it can still be considerd "historical.")

If you get a chance, read African Rifles and Cartridges by John Taylor - especially since you enjoy "historic" chamberings, I think you'll like it. It was written in the 1940's I think - just before WWII - by an ivory hunter...

5-90

[goodburbon]

only problem with those rounds is that their recoil could stop a truck too.

[XJ Dreamin']

only problem with those rounds is that their recoil could stop a truck too.

I'm sure 5-90 could rig a mounting.

5-90: 0.700" sounds good to me. I may have a fetish, but I'm not a purist. I'm sure whatever you feel is adequate will do the job nicely. I've seen the book cited many times, but have not read it. I'll add it to my list.

[5-90]

I'm sure 5-90 could rig a mounting.

5-90: 0.700" sounds good to me. I may have a fetish, but I'm not a purist. I'm sure whatever you feel is adequate will do the job nicely. I've seen the book cited many times, but have not read it. I'll add it to my list.

Of course, if you want to get stupid about it, might I suggest a Lahti or a Solothurn? 20m/mx138m/m, should take care of pretty much anything. Anything larger than that will be difficult anyhow - but the 20x138 can be reloaded (if you have brass) using surplus 20m/m Vulcan or 20m/m Oerlikon rounds - just turn the drive band down on the Vulcan/Oerlikon rounds down about .009", and load them into the 20x138 brass...

5-90

[8Mud]

Just to let you know condors have been reintroduced into the wild (Los Padres NF). They're one of the reasons for the enviroclowns trying to ban lead ammunition.
To make a short story long.:)
That's exactly what I meant when I said agenda driven drivel.
I imagine there are some people a whole lot smarter than me, making policy, but the stuff you see in the press sure makes a person wonder.
San Fernanado Valley West end (Santa Susana hills) and South side (Topanga) used to be Condor country. They seem to favor mostly flat sandstone slopes, with little brush and few trees and/or grass covered slopes.
You got to ask yourself whats missing besides the Condors. Interdependant species.
Condors don't get off the ground well, they usually fly in the early mornings and evenings (dry hot air doesn't offer enough lift for take offs often) once they get off the ground, they use the thermals OK, though not as good as Hawks, Buzzards or Ravens. They are typically the last animal (or nearly so) to make it to the dinner table.
Jays, Mockingbirds and Hawks get there first, then the Ravens and Buzzards, then the Condor, then often the Fox and Coyotes. I've always believed one of the reasons they are so big is they aren't really good at finding there own dinner and have to be big enough to drive off the competition. Or maybe they were more numerous at a time when there were a whole lot more smaller herbavoirs than there are now, kind of like Arctic Eagles carrying off new born Reindeer.
The only time I've ever really seen them hunt is in the spring, when they will eat new born whatever (they usually follow the Jays and Ravens) and robbing eggs from ground nesting birds. The rest of the time they eat carrion.
I'm not a Condor expert, but I sure enough noticed they rarley even try to get off the ground unless they see circling Buzzards and when they do fly, they often fly near the Ravens.
If I was gonna try and reintroduce the Condor, I'd make sure there were Ravens and Buzzards in the area. And thin out the Fox and Coyote population. Condors often have trouble flying again after a large meal and need a pretty long runway to get off the ground. They often have to walk a long ways after a meal to find someplace to take off from. They spend a lot of time on the ground and a Coyote will kill and eat one if it can.
The West end of Conoga Ave. near the Santa Susana pass, there is a large rock pile (Stony Point) that the rock climbers use for practice. In the 1930's the whole rock was full of Ravnes, kind of like a Capastrono type thing, hundreds would show up each year to nest. After Cattle ranching was abandoned in the area and Orange trees were planted, the Ravens disappeared and so did the Condors.
I've always had the feeling that So. Cal is missing a major herbavoir, that has been extinct for a few hundred years if not more. That used to support a whole eco structure. Some kind of goat seems likely, maybe a Buffalo or some type of wild Cow. Something that was there before the Spanish showed up and turned most of South Cal. into cattle country.
A significant Goat herd, would probably really help with Condor survival. Though they would probably cause a whole bunch of corrosion damage. Goats are one of the few herbavoirs that will eat brush and do well on it. Asses and horses can also do well on coarse forage.
Most of my Condor knowledge is from passing observations, I'm not a student (though I have done some extensive Raven study). I really wonder if the People trying to reintroduce the Condor are qualified, if there main worry is lead shot from hunters. It sure seems Politics and agenda can be more of a motivator than success. And actually planning for success (no matter where it leads) is often secondary to agenda. Encouraging hunters to thin out the competition, could be benefitial to the Condor.