88 XJ Improvements

[88XJScott]

Well I my only real plan was to put a cage in this summer, but when I was reading about replacing the rockers with box tube, I thought, that shouldnt be too hard. So I bought some tube and did some more reading and found I needed to tie them into something or they would crush up into the doors. Ok I guess I have to do a subframe, and since the whole front end is apart, might as well do my new track bar... So, a month later and I havent even started my sliders, but I got the subframe and track bar done, and the cage mostly built...

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/subframe01.JPG

Decided to keep it straight, not sure if it was the best decision, but it still came out good.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/subframe02.JPG

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/subframe03.JPG

All painted up

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/subframe04.JPG

Went with a new high clearance x member, gained about 1 1/2" of clearance, still need to redo my skid

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/xmember01.JPG

From the other side

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/xmember02.JPG

[88XJScott]

Since she was apart, built a new track bar. My old rusty's bar had bushings at both ends and was the limiting factor in my flex, I think I'm gonna need some limiting straps now...


Its hard to see cause it hides right behind the draglink, but that is good tho

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/trackbar01.JPG

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/trackbar02.JPG

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/trackbar03.JPG

[88XJScott]

This is easily the coolest project I have ever done. Building a cage has been so sweet, the end result is awesome. I bought a JD2 manual bender to do the bends and been chopsaw notching all of my notches except the really complicated ones, which get done with my angle grinder

The roof section, had to drop the front legs through the floor to get it all welded up.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage01.JPG

A and B pillars, and another shot of the roof. I will have a dash bar and a bar behind the seats to mount the harnesses to.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage02.JPG

From the back, lovin it.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage03.JPG

New PRP seats and a good shot of where the A pillar hits the floor, if I did it again, I think I would have put another bend in the the main bar to kick the bottom of the leg more towards the front, giving me more room for my feet when I was getting in and out.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage04.JPG

Still got the dash bar, behind the seats bar, passenger seat mount, and maybe door bars before it can be finish welded, hopefully get it done by tomorrow night...

[themangeraaad]

Nice, I like the cage. Just curios as you seem to have a good idea of what your doing, how much structure would be lost if the behind the seats bar was located no more than half a foot up from the floor with additional bars from the center of this bar up to the top bar of the roof portion of the cage? I have been tryign to design a good cage set up and always keep getting stuck with the behind the seats bar. I have a 2 dr and want to keep teh functionality of the rear seats for a year or 2 longer at least, until I am out of school and can afford a daily driver and Make my Jeep trail only or a 2 seater w/o worrying about having no rear seat.

But everything looks great otherwise. Nice work

[XJ_Vikings]

nice work, what are you running for arms?

[88XJScott]

That cage design sounds different, which is always good. I think you should build it and see how it looks when you mock it up. If it works and looks good, run it, maybe you'll make the new popular two door cage. I like the idea.

I am running 1.75x.375 DOM tubing with a 2.5" johnny joint welded to one end and a 2.5" joint with a 1.25" shaft on the other end. The tube was drilled and tapped on the end. I haven't bent em so far...

[88XJScott]

The cage is done and painted, easily my favorite thing about my jeep now.

View from the back

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage05.jpg

Another angle

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage06.jpg

One more

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage07.jpg

Then I got to work on the sliderz, took me two nights to build two of these

They tie into the cage in two spots on each side

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/sliderz01.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/sliderz02.jpg

I made them to look similar to my old sliderz that I liked a lot, the main tube is 2x4x.120 and the side protectors are 2x2x.120, we'll see how they hold up...

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/sliderz03.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/sliderz04.jpg

[DesertYJ]

Is there a reason you left the carpet under your center console?

Nice work. I would like to see a little more triangulation in the cage.

[Mr.OverKill]

The cage is done and painted, easily my favorite thing about my jeep now.

View from the back

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage05.jpg

Another angle

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/cage06.jpg



call me an A$$ hole if you want, but why the un even cross bar ( lower on the drivers side ) behind the front seats? other than that, i like the over all looks but might i suggest more cross braceing/ triangulation. how is it tied in to the "frame"?

[88XJScott]

I left the carpet under the center console because I just cut it out, couldnt pull it out. Wanted to start the tube work and didnt feel like working on the carpet at the time. I will get the rest out when I herculine the floor.

I plan on putting more triangulation when I take it off the road for good, the problem with triangulating behind the drivers seat is that it puts a bar right in front of the rear passengers face, so if I get into an accident, they dont have shoulder strap to hold their torso up... I had a bar from the drivers upper corner to the passenger lower corner, but took it out...

The crossbar is level, but the bends are not perfectly flat, so one is higher than the other, making it look uneven.

The cage is tied into the rocker guards, but those arent tied into the subframe.

[Mr.OverKill]

The cage is tied into the rocker guards, but those arent tied into the subframe.cool, other than the future triangulation all i really recomend is the tie in to the "frame". good job.

[88XJScott]

My 37's showed up today!! Mounted em and put em on, they look real nice. 37x14.00x15 bias IROK's. They aren't much taller or wider than my old 35x12.50x15 SSR's, but I wasnt expecting them to be. I wanted them for the sidewalls and the softer tread. We'll see in two weeks how the tread does and how my 44's hold up.

I'll post pics of the tires tomorrow.

[88XJScott]

Got em on and needed to do some more trimming...

Took some pics, 6" of lift on 37x14.00x15 IROKs

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/37s01.jpg

From the front...

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/37s02.jpg

[David Taylor]

How do you get your feet in there ?

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jeepman/Images/summer2006/37s01.jpg

[8Mud]

You do some good fabrication work. Just a couple of thoughts. The "A" Pillar bar could be gusseted at the top and the bottom pretty easy. Quick and easy way to double the strength.
I've seen roll bars, with insufficient base, punch right through the floor pan.
If you ever do roll it, the "A" pillar folds down on a line from the top of the fender to the top of the B pillar. A couple of gussets could add a whole lot of torsion type strength without taking up to much space.
A piece of 3/16 (or quarter inch) flat stock cut in a triangle and welded front to rear at the top and bottom of the "A" pillar bar.
There is a table in an engineering book someplace that lists. the size of the gusset and the added strength from the size (triangle) baseline of the gusset. It doesn't take much of a gusset to double the strength, especially for sideways or torsion stress. Gussets are a quick and easy way to do almost the same thing as triangulation.
Good job.

[88XJScott]

Getting in isnt too bad on the passenger side, but the driver side has the steering wheel which makes it even harder to get in. I wish I had put another bend in it and pushed the bottom foward...

Thanks for the info on the gussets, I think some gussets sounds like a pretty good idea. Any chance I could get you to "MS paint" in where you are talking about, I'm a little confused on exactly where you think they would be best.

[8Mud]

Screwed up the download, Ill try again

[8Mud]

Getting in isnt too bad on the passenger side, but the driver side has the steering wheel which makes it even harder to get in. I wish I had put another bend in it and pushed the bottom foward...

Thanks for the info on the gussets, I think some gussets sounds like a pretty good idea. Any chance I could get you to "MS paint" in where you are talking about, I'm a little confused on exactly where you think they would be best.

My paint skills are sorry but this will give you an idea of what I was trying to expalin.

http://i3.tinypic.com/25teoaf.jpg
Gussets at critical corners and bends
"F" is most of the force on a fairly mild rollover. The cage likely more than doubles the strength, but it really doesn't take much to more than double the force if you flip it.
A few gussets, might be worth the effort and add a little strength, were it will do the most good.

[8Mud]

This is the typical crush line, on an XJ after a mild rollover, without the cage.
http://i8.tinypic.com/25texhd.jpg

Just for info, the doors pop out at the top and don't really help keep the roof from crushing. A couple of upside down "L" hooks at the rain gutters, to catch the door top in a rollover, would also probably double the strength.
Just a couple of easy things that have popped into my mind that might help in a rollover. The object of the whole thing is to keep the roof off of your head.

[GermanXJ]

Nice work

[NXJ]

I never understand why you guys don't build the cage tighter to the roof construction, especially the A-pillars, I'd have a little difficulties getting in and out of the driver seat in a hurry. I guess you look at it as exercise? :laugh3:

Anyway, why not route the front tubes through the dashboard? That's what I'll do on another (even smaller) vehicle.

[8Mud]

I never understand why you guys don't build the cage tighter to the roof construction, especially the A-pillars, I'd have a little difficulties getting in and out of the driver seat in a hurry. I guess you look at it as exercise? :laugh3:

Anyway, why not route the front tubes through the dashboard? That's what I'll do on another (even smaller) vehicle.

The fewer bends the better. When a cage does crush, it has a tendancy to fold at the bends. Curves are better than bends and bends are stronger facing out than in. Triangles are the strongest shape, in many directions.
You can plan around the likely directions of crush. But it's doubtfull, a person can forsee all the stresses involved, without a lot of trial and error.
I'd plan for strength first, then directions of crush in a likely crash scenario, then for comfort.
I tend to think of the cage as an extension of the exisiting body, not as an independant structure. And try to make it strong, where the body is weak.
The last cage I built, actually folded the front tires under the drivers seat and spit the motor, tranny and transfer underneaath and out the rear. Not good planing, more luck than anything else. You hit a five ton rock at 50+ MPH and something is gonna give.

[8Mud]

I never understand why you guys don't build the cage tighter to the roof construction, especially the A-pillars, I'd have a little difficulties getting in and out of the driver seat in a hurry. I guess you look at it as exercise? :laugh3:

Anyway, why not route the front tubes through the dashboard? That's what I'll do on another (even smaller) vehicle.

The fewer bends the better. When a cage does crush, it has a tendancy to fold at the bends. Curves are better than bends and bends are stronger facing out than in. Triangles are the strongest shape, in many directions.
You can plan around the likely directions of crush. But it's doubtfull, a person can foresee all the stresses involved, without a lot of trial and error.
I'd plan for strength first, then directions of crush in a likely crash scenario, then for comfort.
I tend to think of the cage as an extension of the exisiting body, not as an independant structure. And try to make it strong, where the body is weak.
The last cage I built, actually folded the front tires under the drivers seat and spit the motor, tranny and transfer underneath and out the rear. Not good planing, more luck than anything else. You hit a five ton rock at 50+ MPH and something is gonna give.

[8Mud]

Sorry I don't know exactly how I double posted and I can't seem to make it go away.

[88XJScott]

Thanks for all the drawings, I think I will add those gussets. Definitely not hard to add them.

My A pillar is as close to the dash board as it can get. My light switch barely contacts it when I turn them on. Routing the cage through the dash would be the way to go, but it is not very easily to pull the dash out and it is hard to run the tube through the dash without interferring with the AC/defroster tubes. Thats why I didnt do it, I thought about, but decided not to.

[NXJ]

The fewer bends the better...It's not a question about adding more bends, simply just pushing the A-pillar part of the cage forward, thus following the roof-line, resulting in greater support of the roof during a rollover.

[Fryphax]

approximetaly how much tubing did you use in the build of the cage?

[88XJScott]

I used 5 21' sticks, including my screw ups, so right around 100'.

I have some leftover to add to it once I roll it and have to cut the top off. :)

[8Mud]

I used 5 21' sticks, including my screw ups, so right around 100'.

I have some leftover to add to it once I roll it and have to cut the top off. :)

If your actually planning on rolling it, what about a diagonal from the rear view mirror area top windshield cross piece, to the middle of the cross piece inside the "B" pillar area you have running behind the seats. Won't mess with the back seating any, though it might bang your shoulders or elbow.
Maybe try a chunk of tubing in that space and see if your shoulders hit and/or it blocks your vision. Pad it if you decide it will work.
IMO that "A" piller is still the weak spot, though the "B" piller construction will likely prevent you from getting crushed.
A lot of vehicles have a weak "A" piller in a rollover, I think the XJ was strengthened some in that area in the mid 90's.