Dog Trainers- Help Needed

[Fergie]

Need some training help here guys.

I've got a 3 year old Springer Spaniel/Bord Collie Mix named Sierra. She is cage trained, mild mannered, and generally a very well behaved dog.

However, I am having some issues with her when I take her on walks. She exhibits the same behaviour whether it is me, my wife, or the two of us taking her for a walk.

When we pass another dog, she always starts barking and lunging at the dog, no matter size or disposition of the other dog. I've tried taking her to the side and letting the dog pass, but to no avail. She doesnt respond to corrective jerks on the leash either.

We have always walked her on a leash and harness, no choke chain, and I'm not oppossed to using one if that is whats needed.

So, your help is needed and greatly appreciated.

Let me know if you need more info too.

Thanks

[XJumpmaster]

My Heeler does the same thing! I use a "snaffle" collar. It hooks to his regular collar and goes under his chin and around his muzzle. The leash connects under his chin. When he pulls, it will tighten around his muzzle and gives me his head. Forces his head to look at me. Does not hurt him but can get uncomfortable for him to pull. After a while, when he starts to pull, I just give a sharp tug on the leash and he calms down and stays at my side. It was recommended to me by a dog behaviorist.

[ECKSJAY]

Need some training help here guys.

I've got a 3 year old Springer Spaniel/Bord Collie Mix named Sierra. She is cage trained, mild mannered, and generally a very well behaved dog.

However, I am having some issues with her when I take her on walks. She exhibits the same behaviour whether it is me, my wife, or the two of us taking her for a walk.

When we pass another dog, she always starts barking and lunging at the dog, no matter size or disposition of the other dog. I've tried taking her to the side and letting the dog pass, but to no avail. She doesnt respond to corrective jerks on the leash either.

We have always walked her on a leash and harness, no choke chain, and I'm not oppossed to using one if that is whats needed.

So, your help is needed and greatly appreciated.

Let me know if you need more info too.

Thanks

Corrective jerks with a non-training collar tend to aggravate prey drive...

I've had great success with 'prong' type collars for very strong dogs, whether mentally or physically. We would never go for walks without it, even after training was 'over.' That collar would even rattle off the dogs and they would exhibit very obedient behavior. Prong or 'pinch' collars don't work the same as 'choker' chains. They apply pressure that the dog doesn't like, besides making a rattling noise.

Also see if you can socialize your dog a little more with others. Walks in public places tend to help with that...but I'd get her responding to the proper collar first.

[Fergie]

I know what you mean with the prong collars vs. choke chains.

She is socialized quite well, and is quite submissive once she stops barking. When she is off her leash, she does just fine too, again, super submissive.

[ECKSJAY]

I know what you mean with the prong collars vs. choke chains.

She is socialized quite well, and is quite submissive once she stops barking. When she is off her leash, she does just fine too, again, super submissive.

2x4 treatment then. :D

[pierceME311]

http://www.downtownpet.com/blog/uploaded_images/dog.prong.collar-730053.jpg

This is the collar I use for mine a all it takes is a slight tug and he listens right up, I've only had to really use it once when I first got it to teach him that I mean business and it will be painful if you disobey me. Once he learned it I've had no problems since.

[Fergie]

What irks me is that fact that she usually only takes 1 or 2 times of being taught something to catch on.

She is a smart dog, but this has been a growing issues and my methods arent working.

Collar it is.

[redneckboarder]

make sure the collar is up high on his neck otherwise it wont really do anything, and also redirect his attention elsewhere, like tug on him and make him look away fromt eh dog hes barking at and accompany it with a verbal command so eventually you will just be able to say no and no pull required

[8Mud]

The thing is older dogs (three years really isn't too old though) that have learned bad habits, often take just as long to undo the bad habit as it did to learn it.
We do a lot of work at socializing our dogs, we do drive hunts where the dogs are set free, we often have 20 or more dogs in a group, nothing will get you uninvited to the next hunt faster than if your dog starts fights. We have three or four hunts a year.
The best solution is socialization, you really can't have too much. Dogs are territorial and social. Working out the social order in a minute or too, is often a trauma. If they get used to working with unfamiliar dogs, this helps.
A few tips, if you tense up when you see another dog, she will pick right up on it. I tie mine up, then go forward and great the the other dog, set an example.
The right collar can be helpful. Consistency in the training method is also helpful, if you give one command and your wife another, it confuses things.
Spend a lot of time with other dogs, preferably male in the beginning, males rarely bite to injure females. Though the converse isn't always true. Puppies are also a good bet, they have a sort of genetic protection most times.
My method with my large male hunter, was to club him upside the head every time he showed any aggression, hey I'm the pack leader. You do what I say. That was along with laying on top of him and immobilizing him almost daily. I used a standard choke chain at first, I injured him, dogs have glands in there neck that can be injured with a collar. The remedy is ugly, they cut the gland open and let it drain for a couple of weeks. Over doing the dominance thing can have bad consequences, you have to find the right balance for your dog, most Spaniels are often sensitive and a little goes a long way. I'd use a combination of patience and stepped response. It sometimes just comes down to a battle of the wills, who is going to outlast whom.
My Terriers are a whole other can of worms, I can lift my male off the ground by his neck with any collar. His instincts are stronger than most any kind of discomfort. My solution was to put a muzzle on him and his worst enemy and tie them together with a two foot rope, the first time for 12 hours. Every time they showed any aggression the muzzles and the rope went back on. Now all I have to do is show him the muzzle and he gets himself under control.

[Fergie]

The socialization is lacking here in CA. She had plenty of it in Tucson, where she ran with some pits and American Bullies, a few corgies and a retriever. Here in CA, she doesnt have that freedom anymore.

I'm real particular on the commands given, am training the wife to not give our dog commands at the same time I am, and vice versa.

She def knows I'm the pack leader, wife is #2, and she is #3. She is quite sensitive too, that is why I've never used any type of shock collar or prong collar either.

[SCW]

My Terriers are a whole other can of worms, I can lift my male off the ground by his neck with any collar. His instincts are stronger than most any kind of discomfort. My solution was to put a muzzle on him and his worst enemy and tie them together with a two foot rope, the first time for 12 hours. Every time they showed any aggression the muzzles and the rope went back on. Now all I have to do is show him the muzzle and he gets himself under control.

My Airedale is the same way. Smart as hell, to the point where they know when they can get away with something and when they have pushed their luck too far. I've had the same problem with my dog wanting to bark/fight/play/sniff some other dog since day one, eventually I just started kicking him to the point where he now starts at the dog and catches himself, looking at me to see if I've started kicking yet. I haven't had to kick him in a few months now, but he's right on the edge of breaking every time.

We also have a new Brittany Spanial puppy and I'm really interested in how an "easy" dog will be to train, looking forward to actually teaching a dog what I'd like, rather than brokering a deal with the dog on what each of us is will to do. I wouldn't trade that Airedale for nuthin' though, best camp/hunting dog I've ever seen. I've heard many times that Spaniels are soft dogs, so we have been very easy on her so far.

[Fergie]

Our old English Springer was a tough bitch, but this new one is our baby, and there is no two ways about it.

We helped deliver her, and the rest of the litter, and I had her since the moment she came into this world.

She's a good ball, but I still need to do right by her, so the training and discipline has to be there.

SCW- Good luck with the Britt, our dog's mother is a similarly colored Springer. They are THE most affectionate and loyal dogs I've seen.

[WB9YZU]

So, If I read this right, You changed locations and the amount of freedom your Dog has, and you are wondering how to fix the symptom of the Dogs acting out toward other Dogs, I suspect, without breaking the Dogs spirit.

Work your dog. Never get angry with your dog.
Take it out, on a leash. I use a fine choker as a learning tool. When you snap a fine choker, it will make a definite "ziiiing" sound and press on the throat, like a "nip". How much use you will get out of a choker depends on the trainer. You never hold a choker. It's always a real firm "snap", and an imediate release.

Work on proper "heal" and if your dog pulls, give it a bit of lead, then issue the correction, with a verbal enforcement "back". Get it to sit when you stop, like at a light, and to get up and "heal" when you start off.

Work it until you are both tired. Do it every night. Put the dog away for a 1/2 hour when you get home so it can think on what you did.

The Social skills will come back. Do not let your dog off the leash until those social skills come back. You simply can not take the chance. Take walks in the dog park, on-leash and make sure your dog is not only in control, but submits to a good social sniff.
Stay in control. At the first sign, hackles, tail up, whatever, issue a correction and issue a "no" command. When you can walk your dog in the dog park without signs of agression, you know it's time for some off-leash play time :D

Good Luck with your New Local and getting your dog back in the grove.

Ron

[8Mud]

So, If I read this right, You changed locations and the amount of freedom your Dog has, and you are wondering how to fix the symptom of the Dogs acting out toward other Dogs, I suspect, without breaking the Dogs spirit.

Work your dog. Never get angry with your dog.
Take it out, on a leash. I use a fine choker as a learning tool. When you snap a fine choker, it will make a definite "ziiiing" sound and press on the throat, like a "nip". How much use you will get out of a choker depends on the trainer. You never hold a choker. It's always a real firm "snap", and an imediate release.

Work on proper "heal" and if your dog pulls, give it a bit of lead, then issue the correction, with a verbal enforcement "back". Get it to sit when you stop, like at a light, and to get up and "heal" when you start off.

Work it until you are both tired. Do it every night. Put the dog away for a 1/2 hour when you get home so it can think on what you did.

The Social skills will come back. Do not let your dog off the leash until those social skills come back. You simply can not take the chance. Take walks in the dog park, on-leash and make sure your dog is not only in control, but submits to a good social sniff.
Stay in control. At the first sign, hackles, tail up, whatever, issue a correction and issue a "no" command. When you can walk your dog in the dog park without signs of agression, you know it's time for some off-leash play time :D

Good Luck with your New Local and getting your dog back in the grove.

Ron
X 2 sounds like a good beginning to me.

[Stumpalump]

If I do tell it somthing it gets 2 chances and the third time I over react. I'd tell the dog twice and then if it's still acting agressive still then I would react with more aggression than the dog. When the dog lunges after the second comand I would yank the dog back hard enough to throw it off balance then pin it by the neck to the ground and say no. After the other dog was gone I'd let him up and if he stays calm I'd say good boy. Never ever comand your dog more than twice without major corection.
If the dog is to go out and it wont then jump up and make it not worth the hassle of not obeying you. Just don't hit the dog.
XJumpmaster, thanks for the info on your Heeler a ways back. We got a used one and love him!

[8Mud]

If I do tell it somthing it gets 2 chances and the third time I over react. I'd tell the dog twice and then if it's still acting agressive still then I would react with more aggression than the dog. When the dog lunges after the second comand I would yank the dog back hard enough to throw it off balance then pin it by the neck to the ground and say no. After the other dog was gone I'd let him up and if he stays calm I'd say good boy. Never ever comand your dog more than twice without major corection.
If the dog is to go out and it wont then jump up and make it not worth the hassle of not obeying you. Just don't hit the dog.
XJumpmaster, thanks for the info on your Heeler a ways back. We got a used one and love him!

That might work with my hunter, but would turn the few Springer Spaniels I've known to jello quick. Squat and pee every time you raised your voice, cringe at any loud sound, hide in corners.
Though I do agree about correction and consistency. A stepped response often works out well, start gentle and get progressively more physical if the dog is just being a bone head and actually isn't having trouble understanding.
Both border collies and springers are pretty sensitive dogs. Border collies often seem to be a bit hyper.
The only way to train my Rottweiler beagle mix, was a whip and a chair, a big stick or a boot in the arse. My runners were largely untrainable, recall was about the best I ever got accomplished and maybe a few basic commands, if they were in the mood. They lived to chase rabbits, anything else was just an annoyance. They were really good at ignoring people all together.
Springers are mostly people dogs and seem to crave contact. I think fairly gentle and consistent will get the best results, though you may have to club her (a rolled up newspaper works well, lots of noise but no real damage) a few times just to get her attention and prove your serious about the whole exercise.
One thing I've Learned that is fairly consistent about all dogs, they will take a serious scolding or even a beating, if you forgive them shortly after the conflict. It's a dog thing, that people have to learn. Training doesn't always have to be unidirectional, in the end you want to be a team.

[dphillips]

My lab was the same way. She would choke herself so bad on a regular collar that she would make herself puke. The obediance instructor that we went to introduced us to the traing collar (the type with prongs) and it made an immediate differance. I couldn't believe the change in the dog. After two or three "corrections" she knew that we meant business and she would start to calm down. I must admit though, the obedience training was more about training us (the people) than training the dog. The hardest part was being consistent so that the dog understood what was right and wrong.



Oh, yeah. If you correct the bad behaviors, don't forget to reward good behavior too.

[MrShaft696]

I have had the same problem, I have a pit bull terrier and she likes to pull like crazy even on a choker collar. I got one of those face, muzzle type leaders and its like walking a whole new dog. There is not pain involved, and the dog can open its mouth fine, but she cannot pull, the leash turns her head around and she cannot see where she is going.

[Fergie]

Thanks for the advice all.

I'll look into the leaders, and the collars, and start paying attention to my behavior when she gets around other dogs.

I like the idea of the leader better than the collar as she is kind of a baby when it comes to pain...thats just how she is.

[Stumpalump]

One thing I've Learned that is fairly consistent about all dogs, they will take a serious scolding or even a beating, if you forgive them shortly after the conflict. Thats the key right there. Another thing I learned is when you have reached the mental capacity of the dog it will put it's head down and move it back and forth. This is telling you the dogs brain is done. Stop what your doing,relax and tell the dog good boy. At this point your dog is untrainable. Once you see it clearly you will pick up on the signs that the dog is beyond comprehension. Not the dogs fault. It can happen any time even with somthing as simple as telling it to load up in the jeep. Due to distraction or a lot of comotion the dog just can't pick out a known comand. Look for the back and forth and downward head and if you see it don't get mad at the dog. Stop and just pick up the dog and tell him it's OK.

[8Mud]

Most dogs have tendencies, like my Shepard RIP (the sheep herding kind) was to herd and protect, her job was Nanny for the kids. I really didn't have to train her to it, I decided what she tended to do and encouraged her, taught the basic commands and house etiquette. If she had one very good trait, it was good judgment, I sent her out with the kids (to the store or wherever) and felt they were safe.
My Rott Beagle mix was a watch dog and a blood hound (born to follow a blood scent and kill whatever he found at the end), he learned the basic commands and house etiquette, but never did learn recall. I got him as a rescue, he flunked out of dope sniffer school (customs) for being overly aggressive. He'd put his nose to the ground and start following the first interesting scent he picked up. I once chased him for three miles and kicked his butt every three steps all the way home) One good thing, he ignored other dogs and didn't bite outside of the yard. Never bite a child, though he did tear up a couple of people who ignored the signage. I was relieved when he died, I was always expecting catastrophe.
My hunter watches the yard (he is a thinking biter, one good chomp on the butt), guards the car (in the car he will eat you) and does his hunting duties. The kids can sit on him, he has never bite a family member.
What I'm getting at, is it a possibility that your Springer is protecting you? Try to figure out if it is just nerves or at three she is just getting to full adult and may have decided her job is to protect you from other dogs. The instinct may be so strong, no amount of training will bury it completely, she may constantly revert and it will turn into a battle with you, for the rest of her life.
She may just be possessed to guard something and find a vocation in life.
Sometimes you can suppress the bad habits, but never really eliminate the instinct. A one size fits all method of dog training IMO, may not be the answer. A dog is usually happiest when it has a job to do. People and dogs share agenda, to a point.
I never had to train my hunter to point, he was a born pointer, he retrieved without hardly any training, he has retrieved 40 lb. Deer. I had to train him not to bite people (he still needs constant reinforcement to the stop command), he was never really aggressive with other dogs, unless they tried to take his retrieved game away. He will put his nose to a blood trail and you better be prepared to hold on, nothing short of death will stop him. Though in normal field work he runs fifty yard circles out and back and learned recall really easy.
Jack Russel (Plummer) terriers are known to be hard to train to recall: I was given the tip to lay down and play dead, then they will come to investigate, funny but it works. I finally found a whistle (with the magic tone, by accident) that all three recall to. There job is to investigate every nook, corner and cranny they can get there noses into, they crawl in any hole they can squeeze into and some they can't.
Find a tactic, stick with it long enough to see if it works and be prepared to be flexible if it doesn't. One tip you never really hear about much, but many dogs respond to hand signals better than voice, I train both. Or a two tone whistle, one tone for recall and the other for freeze. That's they way they train them in England and here in Germany. The whistle takes much of the battle of the wills, out of the equation. Instead of trying to change a behavior (or instinct), you invent/train a stronger behavior. Somebody mentioned, to train to heal very well, which was a good tip.

[Stumpalump]

Most dogs have tendencies, like my Shepard RIP (the sheep herding kind) was to herd and protect, her job was Nanny for the kids. I really didn't have to train her to it, I decided what she tended to do and encouraged her, taught the basic commands and house etiquette. RIP to your Shepard. I like what you say here and if you noticed in my first reponse I said "If I do tell it to do somthing" meaning let the dog be a dog and don't bombard it with comands. Even my new dog knows the basic routine so why tell it to do stuff for the sake of doing it. My last dog never knew sit,stay.heal,rollover or give me your paw but it knew go pee, stay back, and good stuff or yucky stuff to warn the dog. That way I could tell her good stuff to go eat it or yucky stuff to warn of snakes or rotten stuff that may hurt her stomach. After a while they trust everthing you say but you shouldn't say any more than you have to to keep the dog safe and humans happy. Let the dog be a dog!

[8Mud]

RIP to your Shepard. I like what you say here and if you noticed in my first reponse I said "If I do tell it to do somthing" meaning let the dog be a dog and don't bombard it with comands. Even my new dog knows the basic routine so why tell it to do stuff for the sake of doing it. My last dog never knew sit,stay.heal,rollover or give me your paw but it knew go pee, stay back, and good stuff or yucky stuff to warn the dog. That way I could tell her good stuff to go eat it or yucky stuff to warn of snakes or rotten stuff that may hurt her stomach. After a while they trust everything you say but you shouldn't say any more than you have to to keep the dog safe and humans happy. Let the dog be a dog!
I agree with you whole heartedly, my neighbors grown son has a Springer, he is constantly barking commands at. She is a nervous wreck. The other day, I went over for a visit, played with her for awhile, tried a few commands. Let her run around a lot, loose control. I had her responding to hand commands in minutes, which she had never learned. She loosened right up, her master came out and the first thing he did was scold her for sticking her nose in my crotch. You could see her tense up and get indecisive. The guy is kind of an anal control freak, who needs one of those robot dogs from Japan.
She is really eager to please, but she still likes doing dog stuff.

[Stumpalump]

I used to duck hunt with the old codgers from the Coast Guard Auxilery in Arkansas. This guy had the best lab that would go swimming and play. It would fetch a duck and then have to go around and show all of us the duck he fetched befor bringing it to his master. The dog was half the fun but he died. The next guy to come out had a dog that was kept in a cage in the back of his truck then was treated like a prisoner. The dude would blow a whistle and bark at the dog and the dog had no fun. It really ruined all our fun and made us miss the dog we all loved to watch hunt as much as us.

[Fergie]

One thing I havent considered in the "protection" side of this, is that my wife is pregnant. Would this affect the dog's behavior?

The dog knows hand commands better than voice, and the voice isnt the classic "sit, stay, shake" kind of stuff, but rather specific noises that I have used since day one. I can talk to her normal, use hand commands, or my 'voice' commands and she resonds.

She has done well the past few days with more positive reinforcement, and we've been careful to not get tense when other dogs come around.

[8Mud]

One thing I havent considered in the "protection" side of this, is that my wife is pregnant. Would this affect the dog's behavior?

The dog knows hand commands better than voice, and the voice isnt the classic "sit, stay, shake" kind of stuff, but rather specific noises that I have used since day one. I can talk to her normal, use hand commands, or my 'voice' commands and she resonds.

She has done well the past few days with more positive reinforcement, and we've been careful to not get tense when other dogs come around.

Dogs are really empathetic, I've had dogs start to give milk when another dog is pregnant. Raising puppies is a group effort in a pack. The hormones your wife is generating, almost definitely have some influence. The change of scenery and even the change in position of true north and magnetic north are likely making her a bit disoriented. It's likely once she gets her surroundings sorted out and some kind of definite territory established, she will be better adjusted. Routine can help out a lot.
I'm not going to make myself out as the last word in dog training, but I've had a bunch of dogs over the years. One thing I've never been foolish enough to do is leave a baby alone with a dog, any dog, no matter what the trust level is. Man and dog share a lot of parallel behaviors, but there are some serious differences. An alpha female is likely to kill the puppies of a non alpha female. A male may not recognize them as a part of the pack, but dinner instead.

[RTicUL8]

Get your dog one of these: :D

http://home.comcast.net/~mypcwrench/pet_peek.JPG

[dphillips]

My wife and I just had our first baby and we were worried about how are dog would react. She's really my dog and has always acted very jealous of my wife and rarely responds to her comands. Anytime my wife sits next to me on the couch the dog will try to nudge her away from me with her snout and get in between us. She's never done this with any growling or anything. It always seemed more out of needing attention. Now we have the baby (6wks old) and I think the dog is a little confused about it. She's mostly been curious and just tries to sniff/lick him, but we generally don't leave her in a room with the baby unless one of us is there too. Now I think the dog is just tired of all the crying and would rather just go outside instead of listen to it.

[1985xjlaredo]

Watch the dog whisperer Cesar Millan. I stared using some of his techniques and my labs have done a 360 in most of there behavior