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Oil Pump Rant:

terryd

NAXJA Forum User
I dont know how many of you build motors or even know much about them for that matter. I'm coming from a back ground of working on cars and building motors all my life. My dad and his ex-brother-in-law campaigned a 500cid Hemi powered Challenger to many wins in the 70's and has been building motors since the early 70's. Now that that's out of the way, here goes.....

High Volume vs. High Pressure
In an engine, oil pressure is created by the clearances between the crank, rods, cam, lifters, and the bearings/surfaces they run on. Manufactures have specific tolerances they require for these clearances to create the proper oil pressure for the motor and provide the proper lubrication to the system.

A high volume pump moves more oil through the system, creating more pressure. At the same time, it also places increased loads on the timing set, camshaft, distributor gear/shaft, and a few seals. A high volume pump (with the exception of a situation where increased flow is needed such has a turbo charger or super charger that require pressurized lubrication) is just a crutch for an inexperienced or incompetent engine builder. Most of the excess oil is dumped back into the oil pan through the pressure relief valve creating more heat in the motor and decreasing the life of the oil/seals.

A high pressure pump is a OEM volume pump that uses a stronger pressure relief spring to hold higher pressures rather than cutting out and dumping it in the oil pan. These are recommended and used by the OEM's for high performance use. This type pump was used in the Z28 Camaro's 302 and LT1 350 in the late 60's and early 70's.

Most engines do not have the capability to return the excess oil a high volume pump moves to the top end (ie cylinder head/lifter galley) and during use at high RPM or off camber the engine can starve for oil and destroy its self. Also, in some applications (Ford most notably) the excess stress added to the system can cause it to break the oil pump drive and leave you stranded without any oil pressure. The excess oil running out of the engine onto the crank shaft and out of the bearings also causes power loss due the the oil hitting the crankshaft and creating excess "windage" and aeration of the oil, reducing the lubricity of the oil. Alot of guys use them in race motors, but at the same time, using mechanical lifters and oil restrictors to limit the oil getting to the lifters and top end, further reducing the oil volume demands of the engine.
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There are exceptions to this, as before mentioned. A turbo or super charger that requires pressurized lubrication from the engine and tapped off in the proper location is a good example of a need for a higher volume.

In closing, just remember, if someone says they have a high volume oil pump, they probably dont know what they are talking about in the first place.

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:rant off:
 
I try to remind some of the guys I know whom are going about builds of how not every "performance" part is a good choice, especially HV oil pumps.
I have seen a few cams that had been pushed by more than predicted pressure and walked out too much.
Now I havent really gone out and built any screamers yet, but I have done some decent motors and I have not needed anything more than OEM to maitain specs so far.
As mentioned before, turbos and superchargers (anything else that may need oil) changes the program.
 
Just for the record, my "Big Ugly" camaro has a 350 in it that turns 7000 at the shifts, and its using a stock '76 oil pump I pulled out of the block when I took it out of the C-10 the motor came in. The pumps never had anything done to it other than pulling it apart and checking to make sure it still was within tolerances. Also, my dad built a 302 chevy for a 69 Z28 and Charlie shifted it at 9000 (stick car) and used the Z28 high pressure relief spring in the stock pump.
 
It's nice to read stuff from someone that knows what they're talking about. I agree with you 100%. Oiling systems are misunderstood by so many people.

About the only argument (in favor) of even "considering" a HV pump is in an engine that has been intentionally clearanced to run sustained high RPM (boat motors and such), -and in that case, using a wet-sump system isn't usually practical anyway.

I just smile and shake my head when I hear people ramble-on about the big-dollar engine they just built with loose bearing clearances and a HV pump, -it just makes me cringe.

Any idiot can build a loose motor, -it takes a lot of patience and skill to build one the "right" way.

Any engine with decent clearances will be able to develop adequate pressure with a stock pump, -end of discussion.

I liked reading your rant, because I can relate to everything you said!
 
Its nice to have people reading it that understand the logic in it. I've been reading and studying on this subject for many years and even read a little blurb in Car Craft where David F-whatever his name is was dynoing a SBC with a Z28 pump and put a stock spring in it and saw a 3 or 5 hp increase from just dropping 10-15 PSI of oil pressure at wide open (5500 or 6000 RPM)
 
As MK153 says...it is a FACT that excessive oil pressure in a 4.0 is a very bad thing...pressure should not exceed 58 pounds...otherwise the cam will "walk" in spite of the factory cam button....this will eat up the distributor and cam drive gears...it can also contribute to cam lobe failure...
 
Question:

I swamped my motor last month causing me to loose all oil pressure and develop a rod knock. I've proceeded to change the rod bearings getting some pressure back and getting rid of the knock, but the pressure is still on the low side.
40psi when cold idle
5psi warm idle
19psi cruising down the highway at 1600 rpms.

I installed a new OEM pump when I did the bearings. I'm not intending to do anything to this motor as far as rebuild (gonna drive it till it dies) but was wondering if I could have benefited from one of the other type of pumps.
 
no, not really. you've lost more clearance than just on the crank. I'd say your cam bearings have also suffered great wear. All a high pressure pump is good for is maintaining higher pressure when the pump creates it at higher RPM's. A high volume pump may help you see more pressure, but its not healthy pressure. You'd still have high clearences, just be pumping more oil out of them, and it would also stress out the bearings involved with the cam and distributor. Low oil pressure in something like a low RPM jeep motor isn't that much of a worry. If you were turning 6000RPM for hours in a rally type race, I'd say rebuild the motor and use a stock pump. For what you're doing, put in some 10W40 oil (not 20W50, that's not healthy for the motor either) and run the piss outta it.
 
Been running the Melling high volume oil pump for over one year in daily driver use. According to the tell tale gauge, I have 40 psi at idle and 60 psi at anything over 2k rpm when hot (10w-30). I have had no problems running the single roller timing chain, I can manually turn the crank and watch the distributor rotor move right along with it.
 
60 isn't going to kill anything...unless it over that when cold, and you drive it cold...there is nothing wrong with running a high VOLUME pump as long as the pressure regulator works properly......its the high pressure pumps that hurt....regardless of how much pressure other motors tolerate...the 4.0 can have problems with overpressure...and it's not the chain that suffers...the cam is shoved forwards because of pressure buildup at the rear cam bearing, the cam and distributor gears do not mesh properly and rapidly wear.
 
Slo-Sho said:
I have 40 psi at idle and 60 psi at anything over 2k rpm when hot

I can manually turn the crank and watch the distributor rotor move right along with it.

first of all, according to it stopping at 60 psi tells me that your pressure relief vavle is bleeding the excess back to the oil-pan, aerating the oil and decreasing the lubricity of it. Also going through that valve creates excess heat and is just a waste of power turning that HV pump.

and for the rotor button, that would kinda be how an engine is supposed to work.... at least I've never seen one run with the rotor turning independently of the crank...hard to keep in time that way :looser:

not to be a dick, but your statement about the rotor button kinda proves my "inexperienced or incompetent" statement in the original post.....
 
Slo-Sho said:
Who makes a high pressure pump for the 4.0? All 4.0 oil pumps have a 75 psi blow off relief spring.

You don't really need one for the 5500 RPM's that the 4.0L spins. The only time you need to concern yourself with a non-OEM oil pump is when you're turning 6500+ RPM consistantly.
 
terryd said:
first of all, according to it stopping at 60 psi tells me that your pressure relief vavle is bleeding the excess back to the oil-pan, aerating the oil and decreasing the lubricity of it. Also going through that valve creates excess heat and is just a waste of power turning that HV pump.

and for the rotor button, that would kinda be how an engine is supposed to work.... at least I've never seen one run with the rotor turning independently of the crank...hard to keep in time that way :looser:

not to be a dick, but your statement about the rotor button kinda proves my "inexperienced or incompetent" statement in the original post.....

My point is, that the HV oil pump hasn't proven to cause excess wear in the form of timing chain stretch. The oil pump is driven off the distributor and that is driven off the cam. If there is extra strain or stress as you so claim, it would show itself in the form of timing chain stretch. You can say whatever it is you like, there are many 4.0 owners running the high volume pump w/o any of these detrimental draw backs as you so vehemently claim. I have yet to see any evidence of aeration due to my high volume oil pump which would easily be shown on the dip stick. You think I'm incompetent and inexperienced? I think you're a f'n jack ass, how's that?
 
terryd said:
first of all, according to it stopping at 60 psi tells me that your pressure relief vavle is bleeding the excess back to the oil-pan, aerating the oil and decreasing the lubricity of it. Also going through that valve creates excess heat and is just a waste of power turning that HV pump.

I have an SHO 3.2 Yammy with the stock oil pump, and that has no more than 45 psi when hot, does this also mean that your bassackwards statement applies to this as well? I don't think so tim.
 
terryd said:
I dont know how many of you build motors or even know much about them for that matter.

In closing, just remember, if someone says they have a high volume oil pump, they probably dont know what they are talking about in the first place.

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:rant off:


And if you claim to be a wise man, then it surely means that you don't know.:doh:
 
Slo-Sho said:
I think you're a f'n jack ass, how's that?

You are not the first or the last to call me an ass..... If you don't like what I have to say, its your life and your jeep, do what ever you like. Its my informed opinion that a high volume oil pump is a dangerous thing and if you feel like taking your chances, so be it. I really don't care what you think of me, or my opinion. And yes, inexperienced, now a little childish.....
 
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