pipeline shut down!!!!

[Gnat5680]

just thought you might want to hear the bad news.

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/599530.html

this is from our local news paper in MN. please post comments to keep it on top for others to see.

i will be fill my tank up right now. i don't know when or how much prices will jump but when they do it will a fair amount.

[Fergie]

Shmeh

I make enough money, and know how to tighten up when it comes to budgets.

If the price affects folks that much, their margin was poor to begin with, and the roads will be less congested.

Fergie

[Fergie]

And I just bought a Grand Cherokee too.

[Gnat5680]

i don't like you.

you can budget your money. i on the other hand have a part time job bagging other people food and only make 6.85 an hour. i can't afford any of this. my mom will not help out if i have a job. so i am S.O.L




p.s. id on't really "hate" you. im just jelious. i don't have as good of gas mileage as the GC does.

[flexjay87]

yeah i saw the news also. do you think it will be any impact, or will we all go on drivin into the sunset?

[Fergie]

No worries. I was there not too long ago, and understand your plight.

Until we get the current admin out of office, and decrease our oil dependency, and increase our knowledge about other fuels and forms of transportation, it does me no good to get all riled up.

Fergie

[IslanderOffRoad]

Just what they need, another excuse.

I guess I'll start bothering my boss to move up the date I get my company car.

[Gnat5680]

i just got back from the gas station and filled up at 3.07 for $45. thanks to my lovely mother i was able to get it filled to the top.

i think that it will have an impact on the gas prices. it does make up 8% of the nations oil fields and 2.6% of the worlds. if we do not have good contacts with the other oil rich componies, we could see the biggest jump there in prices ever.

it also stated that they were willing to dip into the emegency reserve to help out if so requested.
any ways im goona keep my trips short unless i have to. and i will take out the weight i have in my right foot.
i am in full gas conservation mode. my car will not leave the driveway untill i get my paycheck. then its all out on the freeway.

[Fergie]

Carpool, ride a bike, mass transit.

[Gnat5680]

Carpool, ride a bike, mass transit.

that reminds me... i have to shell out alot of money to get my bike fixed. i need to switch a bunch of components off one bike and on to another.

[scoobyxj]

I like the comment on how it wont make any shortage of supply, but you know damn well gas will skyrocket. It's all a conspearisey. You ever noitce how fast gas will go up from a major delima when it takes at least a month or two for the current crude to accually get to the pump, but when the price of crude drops it takes a while for gas to come back down. What ever happend to all the crude thay found in Canada? Was supposed to be more there than the middle east. How meny ever even heard about it? They didn't make big deal about it so they could keep rapeing us. Yea I know that the Mother country pays out the ass for there gas, but that has a lot to do with the goverment tax that is put on it. Becides they have much better interstate mass transit over there too. I think we should go back to mostly shipping good by rail. Would get a lot of trucks off the road, and grately reduce our national fuel consumption as a whole. On that note we need to get more diesel cars, and light trucks. Diesel is cleaner, is more efficent, and has more BTU's of energy compared to the same amount of gasoline.

[OT]

On that note we need to get more diesel cars, and light trucks. Diesel is cleaner, is more efficent, and has more BTU's of energy compared to the same amount of gasoline.
x10

My PSD get's better mileage than an XJ ever did.

[CRASH]

Diesel is cleaner.


Think again. The newest of the new diesels are cleaner, but they don't touch a PZEV gasser. Why do you think diesels have such a hard time getting into California?

I endorse all your other diesel statements.

[IntrepidXJ]

There's already a bit of a diesel shortage in a few states as well

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4899649,00.html

http://www.nebraska.tv/news/local/3402591.html

[Glenn B]

When it gets as bad as the gas crisis in the 70's, then I may get annoyed. Until then.... :)

[Captain Ron]

When it gets as bad as the gas crisis in the 70's, then I may get annoyed. Until then.... :)

True.

Were you odd or even? :D

--ron

[Glenn B]

We were even, but Dad was (still is) in the fire department, so we had some hook-ups if needed. ;) The Bay Area was painful then... the lines were crazy.

[Captain Ron]

I remember swapping plates, and siphoning gas. That's right where my memory fades. :D

--ron

[CRASH]

I remember swapping plates, and siphoning gas. That's right where my memory fades. :D

--ron


Someone tried to jack me for some diesel last month, the old check ball/bend in the Ford filler threw them for a loop I guess. They gave up and just stole my fuel cap.

[STEELFISH]

some local kids tried to siphon "gas" out of a diesel and wound up severly sick when they huffed and swallowed too much diesel....the lady who owned the truck (in a wheel chair by the way) said that will teach those little (explitive)

[xjtrailrider]

Two words!

"Economic Terrorism"

I'll never buy BP gas again!

[Glenn B]

Two words!

"Economic Terrorism"

I'll never buy BP gas again!
well, THAT will show the big evil BP. :twak:

[Rev Den]

Another week of buisness travel in the Summer....gas prices need to DOUBLE to keep these knuckledraggers off the roads and out of the hotels.

1 more month till school starts, I can't wait.

Rev

[Fish'nCarz]

"Once complete, the shutdown will cut production by 400,000 barrels a day, about 2.6 percent of U.S. supply including imports,

BP discovered corrosion in the transit lines only after the Department of Transportation ordered their inspection following a 270,000 gallon spill in March at another section of the field.

BP officials said the line where the leak was found was last checked in 1992, using a "pig," a device sent down the tubes to clean and assess pipeline integrity.
"Clearly, we are already in the process of adjusting considerably our corrosion program," Marshall said, adding that the company will significantly increase its maintenance and surveillance of the transit lines both now and when they are replaced. The company is spending $72 million this year to inhibit corrosion, up from $60 million last year.

The aging pipeline system on the North Slope has been fraught with problems lately. BP, which posted a net profit of $7.3 billion for the three months ending June 30, operates the Prudhoe Bay field.

In March, BP was blamed for the rupture of a pipeline at the same field, leading to an extension of a criminal investigation into the company's management of its Alaskan operations."

Okay, these are some seriously greedy bastards. They made $7.3 BILLION in the last fiscal quarter (that looks like this: $73,000,000,000.00) and they couldn't properly test or maintain their infrastructure in the last 14 years, even though the engineers designed it to only last until 2002?!?!? WTF!???!?

And their are people out there who wonder why anyone would oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?

And you watch, no one will be held accountable for any of this. I don't know about you, but if I get caught dumping a gallon of old motor oil I am liable for prosecution and a huge fine, if the DA feels like it. This is so f#@cked-up!

[SCW]

Two words!

"Economic Terrorism"

I'll never buy BP gas again!


Bwahahahaha

Theya are losing how many dollars each day? I'd say they are paying a LOT of money to protect a bunch of Alaskan mosquitoes and keep the tree-huggers off their backs a little. Back in the "bad-ol-days" they would have let the oil dump all over and not fix it till they had to, now they are shutting it down indefinately to make sure it's fixed right.

What a marooon....

[boise49ers]

No worries. I was there not too long ago, and understand your plight.

Until we get the current admin out of office, and decrease our oil dependency, and increase our knowledge about other fuels and forms of transportation, it does me no good to get all riled up.

Fergie
Bingo !
Sure would of been nice if some of these companies with their Multi-Billion dollar profits over the last few years would of spent some of it on F**king maintaining their damn pipelines.They have showed leaks for years now. Nope we will wait and drop it on the Consumer again. They won't throw to big a fit.

[SCW]

Bingo !
Sure would of been nice if some of these companies with their Multi-Billion dollar profits over the last few years would of spent some of it on F**king maintaining their damn pipelines.They have showed leaks for years now. Nope we will wait and drop it on the Consumer again. They won't throw to big a fit.


Amazing. Now you can blame Bush for RUST?!?! I'm not a big GW Bush fan (he's not conservative enough for me), but you can't possibly blame him for rust. Get real.

[Glenn B]

Bingo !
I love the line , what we supposed to do vote for Kerry ? Well yeah at least he fought in a War and didn't hide. Then they talk about waffling. Oh please, these guys in affice might as well be called the EGGO boys.
Sure would of been nice if some of these companies with their Multi-Billion dollar profits over the last few years would of spent some of it on F**king maintaining their damn equipment. Nope we will wait and drop it on the Consumer again. They won't throw top big a fit.
That would have fixed it all. Had we known that voting for Kerry would have also meant BP would maintain their equipment.... Hmmmm. Would have been a tough choice. NOT.

[Rev Den]

Nope we will wait and drop it on the Consumer again. They won't throw to big a fit.

EVERY company, big or small, passes expenses onto the customer. They may have waited too long, but few companies are proactive, till a problem arises.

Rev

[Glenn B]

Amazing. Now you can blame Bush for RUST?!?! I'm not a big GW Bush fan (he's not conservative enough for me), but you can't possibly blame him for rust. Get real.

No, I think what he is getting at is his candidate would have personally made sure they fixed it before it broke. Or he would have done a study or something?

BTW, how the hell did Al Gore not see this coming? After inventing the internet, then doing a Mockumentary on his views of Global Warming.... he damned well shoulda seen this coming.

[boise49ers]

Amazing. Now you can blame Bush for RUST?!?! I'm not a big GW Bush fan (he's not conservative enough for me), but you can't possibly blame him for rust. Get real.
Nope just everything f***ed up from Asia to America. If you are conservative you wouldn't agree because you like the fact we go out and kill people. I think it sucks and now the whole mideast may go up. Why can't we blame Bush, Republicans are still blaming Clinton for everything 6 year after he left office.
You know what kills me up here in Idaho is they thought Bills adminstration was horrible because of a few road closures. Now the State is shutting down Millions of acreas we used to use and nobody to blame, but the Good Ole Boys. Ain't no Democrats up here.
For Timber, Mining, and Grazing. Wonder how they will twist it to put the blame on the Clinton Administration ?
I knew this thread was gonna get juicey :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: KEWL !

[johnlv6]

Just another excuse to increase fuel prices. I'm lifting my XJ and adding bigger tires to celebrate :D.

Edit: No...i'm not kidding :).

[boise49ers]

Just another excuse to increase fuel prices. I'm lifting my XJ and adding bigger tires to celebrate :D.

Edit: No...i'm not kidding :).
Woo Hoo ! Yeah I'm going on a pretty long run Sunday to celebrate. I seriously do my little rants just to have fun. My Computer games get boring :laugh3: If only TrnDrvr would jump in and give me a hand, damn it :laugh3:

[Glenn B]

Nope just everything f***ed up from Asia to America. If you are conservative you wouldn't agree because you like the fact we go out and kill people. I think it sucks and now the whole mideast may go up. Why can't we blame Bush, Republicans are still blaming Clinton for everything 6 year after he left office.
You know what kills me up here in Idaho is they thought Bills adminstration was horrible because of a few road closures. Now the State is shutting down Millions of acreas we used to use and nobody to blame, but the Good Ole Boys. Ain't no Democrats up here.
For Timber, Mining, and Grazing. Wonder how they will twist it to put the blame on the Clinton Administration ?
I knew this thread was gonna get juicey :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: KEWL !

OK, where did that Tin Foil Hat gif go to? Perfect sales oppurtunity right there.

[Beej]

I'm not a big GW Bush fan (he's not conservative enough for me) Get real. The Big GeeDubya Sez:
http://www.forumspile.com/Bush_ORLY.jpg

[SCW]

The Big GeeDubya Sez:
http://www.forumspile.com/Bush_ORLY.jpg


I knew the canadian would have valuable input. As always-

Maybe now we can have an equally poignant response from the terrorist.

[Beej]

:D You can't own me that easily...

[Geepfreak]

KInda funny here today, waiting lines at every pump everytime I happened to drive by, 3 different stations... :looser:


It took 123.00 US dollars to fill my truck today
:twak:

Can't wait for this weekend..:D

[Glenn B]

I knew the canadian would have valuable input. As always-

Maybe now we can have an equally poignant response from the terrorist.

Is Ramsey still awake?

[Glenn B]

KInda funny here today, waiting lines at every pump everytime I happened to drive by, 3 different stations... :looser:


It took 123.00 US dollars to fill my truck today
:twak:

Can't wait for this weekend..:D

No lines here today. A couple hours on the NJ Turnpike. A trip to the airport in Newark (dreary place... yuk!). No lines for fuel anywhere.

[Rev Den]

No lines anywhere from IL to MN today....just knuckleheaded vacationers dragging thier screaming little brats all over. Americans do not care how much gas is...they will still drive and travel.

Rev

[SCW]

OK, My wife is on the rampage and I'm hiding out in the office tonight, so I'll play with the kiddies on NAXJA. Lets pick apart what a stupid statement this is, shall we?

Nope just everything f***ed up from Asia to America. If you are conservative you wouldn't agree because you like the fact we go out and kill people.

This one is a doozy. You don't have to look very hard to find the dumb parts here, but I'll delve anyway. #1 you imply that GW Bush is the sole person responsible for discord around the world. I seem to remember more than just 6 years worth of history (as inconvienient as that is to the dumber class) and I can assure you that discord and discontent could have been found long before the republicans made plans for the worlds oil in the depths of the Skull and Crossbones club while they made the Kennedy's artificially look like a bunch of drunken fools for the right-wing press.

#2- I like death and destruction beause I'm conservative. Hmm, interesting. This implys that only conservatives are in the military, that they love war/death and that death is the only reason we go to war. I would argue that peace is the only thing worth fighting for, and it has to be fought for or it will be taken away. Sniveling and whining that there is death in the world never solved ruthless dictatorships that are bent of the destruction of our lives and livelihoods.

I think it sucks and now the whole mideast may go up. Why can't we blame Bush, Republicans are still blaming Clinton for everything 6 year after he left office.

Amazing as it seems, history did take place before GW Bush, as I noted above. The actions and inactions of Clintoris are still being felt today, and are still affecting global positions, problems and even wars. What would the world be like if Clintoris had taken out Bin Laden like he was given the oportunity for?

You know what kills me up here in Idaho is they thought Bills adminstration was horrible because of a few road closures. Now the State is shutting down Millions of acreas we used to use and nobody to blame, but the Good Ole Boys. Ain't no Democrats up here.
For Timber, Mining, and Grazing. Wonder how they will twist it to put the blame on the Clinton Administration ?

Can't address issues in Idaho, but I do know that the Clintoris administration did more damage to southern Utah than any hurrican did in the Gulf states in comparison to the scale of industry. A few road closures? How about locking up the nations largest and purest coal reserves and signing a contract with the Chineese to import 3rd rate coal? Guess who contributed to the Clintoris campaign? Yeah, blame those damn conservatives for opening a way for gas and oil exploration, at the same time as you bitch about the price of gas and the evil petroleum industry.


Again, what a maroon.....

[Geepfreak]

No lines anywhere from IL to MN today....

Rev


I think it's just the local culture and the 72 hour supply of everything, cause the goverment is going to collapse, and the world is ending post-haste.

[boise49ers]

OK, My wife is on the rampage and I'm hiding out in the office tonight, so I'll play with the kiddies on NAXJA. Lets pick apart what a stupid statement this is, shall we?



This one is a doozy. You don't have to look very hard to find the dumb parts here, but I'll delve anyway. #1 you imply that GW Bush is the sole person responsible for discord around the world. I seem to remember more than just 6 years worth of history (as inconvienient as that is to the dumber class) and I can assure you that discord and discontent could have been found long before the republicans made plans for the worlds oil in the depths of the Skull and Crossbones club while they made the Kennedy's artificially look like a bunch of drunken fools for the right-wing press.

#2- I like death and destruction beause I'm conservative. Hmm, interesting. This implys that only conservatives are in the military, that they love war/death and that death is the only reason we go to war. I would argue that peace is the only thing worth fighting for, and it has to be fought for or it will be taken away. Sniveling and whining that there is death in the world never solved ruthless dictatorships that are bent of the destruction of our lives and livelihoods.



Amazing as it seems, history did take place before GW Bush, as I noted above. The actions and inactions of Clintoris are still being felt today, and are still affecting global positions, problems and even wars. What would the world be like if Clintoris had taken out Bin Laden like he was given the oportunity for?



Can't address issues in Idaho, but I do know that the Clintoris administration did more damage to southern Utah than any hurrican did in the Gulf states in comparison to the scale of industry. A few road closures? How about locking up the nations largest and purest coal reserves and signing a contract with the Chineese to import 3rd rate coal? Guess who contributed to the Clintoris campaign? Yeah, blame those damn conservatives for opening a way for gas and oil exploration, at the same time as you bitch about the price of gas and the evil petroleum industry.


Again, what a maroon.....

Yep you have me all figured out. You are the all knowing always right kinda guy everyone flocks to for all their answers.:eeks1:

[SCW]

Sounds like you are pretty satisfied with the current energy policies. You must be profiting off it some how. :scottm:


Yeah, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. We have a dungeon at work where nobody but us and the pizza delivery guy have access to and we sit there for hours at a time trying to figure out how to cut production and increase demand. Then we try to figure out what we can do next to make the public hate us.

It isn't much, but it pays the bills.

[Gnat5680]

No lines anywhere from IL to MN today

so wait you go up to MN???

i only had a little problem with lines. but then i again, i went on everyone lunch break. if i waited an hour or so it would have been dead.

i think we should post the current high prices to see who is getting nailed the most and keep up to date on the raises.
if i can im gonna do a little report on this for socail studies.(try and get the teacher off my back this year)

the current high in my area is $3.15

[boise49ers]

Yeah, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. We have a dungeon at work where nobody but us and the pizza delivery guy have access to and we sit there for hours at a time trying to figure out how to cut production and increase demand. Then we try to figure out what we can do next to make the public hate us.

It isn't much, but it pays the bills.
Yeah that was why I edited it. Figured you may have a little insight. Damn it I hate when I'm caught wityh my pants down. :smsoap:
You win I quit :laugh3:

[Glenn B]

Yep you have me all figured out. You are the all knowing always right kinda guy everyone flocks to for all their answers.
You believe everything that is pumped to you via Fox, Hannity and those other sources you want to believe, and everyone else are just idiots. Sounds like you are pretty satisfied with the current energy policies. You must be profiting off it some how. :scottm:

Ahhh. The 2nd biggest sign of desperation, bringing Fox News in to a discussion as an excuse. 1st biggest sign of desperation is bringing Hitler in as an excuse. Not sure why you brought Hannity in though, he is a known right leaning opinion personality. Not a News anchor. Nice try, please play again. :)

Oh, you might wanna join NAXJA so you can continue this discussion after it blows up and gets moved to the Den. :D

[Gnat5680]

1st biggest sign of desperation is bringing Hitler in as an excuse.

i think Mel Gibson did that.

[Glenn B]

the current high in my area is $3.15

$3.15 would be sweet. Lowest around here varies from $3.30 to over $3.50

[Glenn B]

i think Mel Gibson did that.

I think his father did that.

[Gnat5680]

$3.15 would be sweet. Lowest around here varies from $3.30 to over $3.50

where are you? i don't recognize the city.

[Glenn B]

where are you? i don't recognize the city.

Dang......... :twak:

[Gnat5680]

where are you? i don't recognize the city.

never mind. with help from the trusty google earth i was able to find it.

[Sarge]

Man, diesel started climbing here right after the news. Yesterday it was $2.85-2.95. This morning $3.09 and 1 1/2 hr later $3.15. Glad it lasts a long time in my tank considering I do 400 miles a week at least and since it's for work aint no way I can cut it down.

Sarge

[Gnat5680]

Man, diesel started climbing here right after the news. Yesterday it was $2.85-2.95. This morning $3.09 and 1 1/2 hr later $3.15. Glad it lasts a long time in my tank considering I do 400 miles a week at least and since it's for work aint no way I can cut it down.

Sarge

only 440 miles???

i only do 50-300 a week.

50 mi. i was at home not wanting to look for a job.

300 mi. i got a job.

and they wonder why i don't like work?

[XJ Dreamin']

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif

[Rev Den]

only 440 miles???

i only do 50-300 a week.

50 mi. i was at home not wanting to look for a job.

300 mi. i got a job.

and they wonder why i don't like work?

:roflmao:

I drive about 1200 miles a week.

Good thing I do not pay for gas. To be honest I usually do not even look at the price, but even with that I did just look at vehicle reports and compared June 06 to June 04, for almost the same number of miles, my fuel cost was only about $200 more in 06 as compared to 04.

Not really signifacant.

Rev

[Lawn Cher']

I resumed car pooling with my wife today.:helpme:

[Fish'nCarz]

EVERY company, big or small, passes expenses onto the customer. They may have waited too long, but few companies are proactive, till a problem arises.

Rev

Yep, unfortunately it's become the American (and apparently the British) way. It's what allowed Toyota, Honda and Nissan to make such big gains internationally. There are a lot of auto manufacturing suppliers over here in West Michigan (Not as many as there were 10 years ago!) and everybody is chasing Toyota.

[XJ Dreamin']

I resumed car pooling with my wife today.:helpme:

I'll be thinking of you man...

http://www.memory-maker.co.uk/acatalog/20055.jpg




No, really. I feel for you. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


Who's driving?

[DrMoab]

Yeah, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. We have a dungeon at work where nobody but us and the pizza delivery guy have access to and we sit there for hours at a time trying to figure out how to cut production and increase demand. Then we try to figure out what we can do next to make the public hate us.

It isn't much, but it pays the bills.
I hope you drink beer. I really want to buy you one while we discuss this around the campfire this weekend.

You are my kinda guy.

[XJ Dreamin']

we sit there for hours at a time trying to figure out how to cut production and increase demand.

Dang! It's not that hard. The auto industry does it all the time. Make 100,000 units, then lay everybody off 'cause you couldn't sell them, then lose market share because you don't have any production because you laid-off everybody....no, wait. That's not working out so well for them, is it?

Let's see...Oh! I know.

Scene:
Alaska.

Cast:
-Director of BP Pipeline Operations.
-Chuck (pipeline technician)

Act 1:[curtain rises on Directors office]
Director: [speaking on phone] Yeah. Right. OK. I'm on it. [hangs up phone: pushes intercom] Hey! Chuck!
Chuck: [heard over intercom] Yeah, Boss.
Director: Take a hammer and a chisel and go poke a hole in the pipeline.
Chuck: Prices not high enough, yet?
Director: Just shut up, and do it.
Chuck: I'm on it. [Director releases intercom]
Director: [Rifling through his desk drawers] Damn! Now where is my cigar cutter?
[curtain falls to standing ovation from oil futures investors]
fini

[Lawn Cher']

Who's driving?

She drove today, subjected me to her whim on the ipod. The plus side was that I could finally drop off my Suburban for a tire rotation and balance.

[XJ Dreamin']

She drove today, subjected me to her whim on the ipod. The plus side was that I could finally drop off my Suburban for a tire rotation and balance.

I hear ya'. I don't have much problem with my wife's playlist. Not my favorites, buy I can live with it. OTOH, she doesn't have any use for the blues, The Dead, or Procol Harem, so I try to keep carpooling to a minimum. When she drives, I sleep. When I drive, she's always poking me to wake up. Get's annoying after a while ;)

[Rocketman]

No, I think what he is getting at is his candidate would have personally made sure they fixed it before it broke. Or he would have done a study or something?

BTW, how the hell did Al Gore not see this coming? After inventing the internet, then doing a Mockumentary on his views of Global Warming.... he damned well shoulda seen this coming.

Don't knock Gore's movie... it was pretty damn good actually and according to almost every scientist, dead on accurate. It wasn't his views but a fact based analysis. Almost no one in the scientific community has bunked the film.

Now the internet thing... that's always good for a chuckle!

[DrMoab]

Don't knock Gore's movie... it was pretty damn good actually and according to almost every scientist, dead on accurate. It wasn't his views but a fact based analysis. Almost no one in the scientific community has bunked the film.

Now the internet thing... that's always good for a chuckle!
Almost every Scientist? You mean every scientist that is on Environmentalist payrolls right?

Funny I have seen story after story after story on how much mis-information there actually was in this movie. Something like a verifiable lie every 3 minutes.

Did you know that the Majority of Nobel winning scientists do not believe in Human created Global Warming?

[XJ Dreamin']

Did you know that the Majority of Nobel winning scientists do not believe in Human created Global Warming?

I think their usual position is they see a lack of definitive proof. Basically, the issue is so fuzzy with variables that there is a large camp that won't step on the bandwagon with only a collection of disassociated observations. I think a lot of them feel that global warming (I refuse to capitalize it - grammar and all, you know) is probable, but that specific human causal links have not been adequately defined.

I'm not disagreeing with you, exactly: just qualifying the phrase 'do not believe'. They might believe it, and they might not, but they won't give a professional opinion, as a scientist, due to a lack of data. So, when polled, some say 'no' because they do not believe - some say 'no' because they can't say 'yes'. It ends up a majority 'no', but there is also a large faction who abstain.

Myself? Global warming: yes. Human cause: probably. How to change it: too late. What to do: adapt.

[XJ Dreamin']

Don't knock Gore's movie... it was pretty damn good actually and according to almost every scientist, dead on accurate. It wasn't his views but a fact based analysis. Almost no one in the scientific community has bunked the film.

Now the internet thing... that's always good for a chuckle!

My Dad saw it. It convinced him. But then, he's an engineer. I don't take his word on anything scientific.

[Glenn B]

Don't knock Gore's movie... it was pretty damn good actually and according to almost every scientist, dead on accurate. It wasn't his views but a fact based analysis. Almost no one in the scientific community has bunked the film.

Now the internet thing... that's always good for a chuckle!
Hahaha, are you serious? Or was that sarcasm?

I am hoping it was sarcasm.

[DrMoab]

Heard a comidian say something about it...it was kind of funny.

basicly he said the Earth has warmed up by 1.6* over the last hundred years. Big deal.

But what about his Grandchildren??? 3.2* Damn that sucks.

[Captain Ron]

Almost every Scientist? You mean every scientist that is on Environmentalist payrolls right?


Ryan, would it surprise you to know the most respected voice leading the warnings is paid by US government grants, directly, for this specific research? GWB's administration has pumped more money into this research than any other administration, and any other country or entity in the last 8 years.

--ron

[Geepfreak]

Almost every Scientist? You mean every scientist that is on Environmentalist payrolls right?


Funny I have seen story after story after story on how much mis-information there actually was in this movie. Something like a verifiable lie every 3 minutes.


Here's one (http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/01/18/not-as-bad-as-we-thought/)
another (http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/01/11/jumping-to-conclusions-frogs-global-warming-and-nature/)
And Earth has probably never warmed as fast as in the past 30 years
But 30 years in the scope of the earths life, is NOTHING.


gives what, for many, is a surprising assessment: "Gore's circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention."
It's from Canada, so who knows..:D (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm)

[DrMoab]

Ryan, would it surprise you to know the most respected voice leading the warnings is paid by US government grants, directly, for this specific research? GWB's administration has pumped more money into this research than any other administration, and any other country or entity in the last 8 years.

--ron
To me this doesn't mean anything. Even though Bush is obviously pro-oil, he still has to pump tons of money into that kind of research or the Environmental lobbyists would go nuts.

I have voted Conservative since I turned 18 but I don't think I will ever vote straight republican again. To me they are all just Demepublicans and Republicrats. There just isn't enough difference in how they vote or where they put their money.

To say that this administration has pumped money into the research to say that Global Warming exists doesn't mean a thing to me.

I still see it as researchers and scientists all believe in one thing and they work to make their research prove what they believe in their hearts.

Faulty science if you ask me.

I am not one of these guys who doesn't believe that Global Warming doesn't exist. I just haven't seen enough evidence that we are the cause. From everything I see we go through cycles like this all the time. Humans just have very short memories. Anyone remember the 70's when the fad was to believe we were going into an ice age?

[boise49ers]

My Dad saw it. It convinced him. But then, he's an engineer. I don't take his word on anything scientific.
Hah hah ha ! Now that was funny !

[XJ Dreamin']

Anyone remember the 70's when the fad was to believe we were going into an ice age?

I remember '77 : -24* in St. Charles Co., MO. I remember '78 : 60+ continuous days of snow on the ground.

The thing about climate is, we're talking about a dynamically stable system with ups and downs, both seasonally and on an epoch scale.

While the system may range between bounds, the average can remain fairly stable.
http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/3584/flatwp9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Global warming has to do with adding energy to the system, not just with raising the average. If the average were the primary factor, adding energy might look like this (time passes from left to right).
http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/2593/evenupcu8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

However, what actually happens is something like this. As energy is added to the system, the range increases at both the upper and lower bounds. If you tap a spring, it osolates over a range of movement determined by the physical properties of the spring. If you tap it harder (more energy) it osolates over a wider range. Like this.
http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/7010/stableupzz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Notice that, although the system has become more energetic, the average has not changed. Global warming advocates are presenting a model that is a meld of my second and third, above. Widening range, with a slightly increasing average. But, the average doesn't have to change at all for the system as a whole to increase in total energy. Unfortunately, for them, when looking at the history of climate, the view is so fuzzy that average is about all they can make out. Their problem is that, for a dynamic system, average is a poor indicator of total system energy.

I think that alot of the warming advocates are sincere in their concern, but that fear is driving them to step beyond the strict limits of available data. OTOH, they could be right. The thought that scares me is this. The ranges of dynamic systems are controlled by complex feedback loops, such as the predator/prey relationship. With such systems, a change in just one factor can lead the system to become dynamically unstable, diving off past previous bounds into previously uncharted territory.

For myself: like I said before:

Global warming: yes. Human cause: probably. How to change it: too late. What to do: adapt.

[Beej]

XJ Dreamin', that crap looks like punctuated equilibrium...

:D

[XJ Dreamin']

XJ Dreamin', that crap looks like punctuated equilibrium...

:D

Punctuated equilibrium is real, man. Deal with it!

The point is, citing an increase in global climatic average temperature might mean the extinction of all life on Earth, or it might mean absolutely nothing. The average of a dynamic system is pretty much the worst predictor of future behavior you could come up with.

Here's a blanket statement from my camp to the warming/disaster camp:

"Meh. You might be right. Good luck getitng anybody to change."

[OT]

Think globally, act with best intents.......

[XJ Dreamin']

Think globally, act will best intents.......

...and think quietly to yourself, "I'm helping to stem global warming. I'm helping....."

Seriously, I think they're right. I do what I can to not spend too much energy, but more out of personal financial concerns, not global economic concerns. Reality is, if they're model is accurate, it's too late: the system is reacting. But, they can't predict the direction and extent of the reaction. So, hang on. See you on the other side....

[SanDiegoXJ]

Carpool, ride a bike, mass transit.

Or just siphon gas out of all the cars with Kerry/Gore stickers on 'em...they're the ones who are all concerned about global warming in the first place.

As for me, I like tropical weather and cheap gas, so it's all good! =) I say open up ANWR to oil exploration!

http://action.anwr.org/

[Captain Ron]

To me this doesn't mean anything. Even though Bush is obviously pro-oil, he still has to pump tons of money into that kind of research or the Environmental lobbyists would go nuts.

...

Ryan, you're way off base here man. It has nothing to do with the Enviro crowd. I'll tell you why.

Santa Claus has been in a tizzy for a few years now about how his digs at the North Pole are becoming beach front property.

Now he's gotten tired of threatening to move to the South Pole. So he's upped the ante to promising to turn the sleepy Southern Hemishere into a consumer giant by leveraging his considerable market clout. On top of that, he's gonna shut down operations, and send all manufacturing to China.

Why is that a big deal? Well, he don't care about their currency valuation, and couldn't care less about a trade imbalance. Now, the administration is looking at this very closely, they need to be able to react, and contingency plans are being formulated. We're talking big impact here, GW's smart enough to see it, and knows this research is important.

Imagine losing a whole 15 to 25 days off the Christmas shopping season, and the impact on the retail numbers!

:D

--ron

[DrMoab]

And to think....I wanted to go for a ride on your boat. :D

[CRASH]

..Global warming: yes. Human cause: probably. How to change it: too late. What to do: adapt...

This is the official view (more or less) of the State of California, and we are moving forward with adaptation measures as we speak.

I tend to be fairly skeptical of the causal certainty displayed by Mr. Gore, however, I can't argue with my own sensors that are telling me sea level in the San Francisco Bay (and the rest of CA coastline) are rising. An increase in mean sea level is very bad news for water agencies that depend on moving fresh water through an estuarine system (the Sacramento Delta). It's my job to come with certain parts of the adaptation plan, and I could give a rat's ass about the cause.

[Glenn B]

This is the official view (more or less) of the State of California, and we are moving forward with adaptation measures as we speak.

I tend to be fairly skeptical of the causal certainty displayed by Mr. Gore, however, I can't argue with my own sensors that are telling me sea level in the San Francisco Bay (and the rest of CA coastline) are rising. An increase in mean sea level is very bad news for water agencies that depend on moving fresh water through an estuarine system (the Sacramento Delta). It's my job to come with certain parts of the adaptation plan, and I could give a rat's ass about the cause.

Right, typical. You ignore the San Joaquin Delta system. No big surprise though. :)

[Captain Ron]

And to think....I wanted to go for a ride on your boat. :D

You still do. I wouldn't want you to miss this upcoming trip.

Its the one where we go to Mexico for a few days every 4 years to fill up the tanks with diesel... Pemex, government subsidized, cheap, for boats, in Mag Bay.

Last time we bought it from the Mexican Navy, from a bosun, on the sly, 220 gallons, .25 per.

:D

--ron

[Gnat5680]

Heard a comidian say something about it...it was kind of funny.

basicly he said the Earth has warmed up by 1.6* over the last hundred years. Big deal.

But what about his Grandchildren??? 3.2* Damn that sucks.

i remember somthing from my science class that if the overall world temp rises 1* more it wil melt the icecaps and we could all drownd.

well i will leave that to the next few generations. we blame the people before us for things that are wrong now. i am just gonna give them something to bi^ch about in the future.

[Gnat5680]

On top of that, he's gonna shut down operations, and send all manufacturing to China.
--ron

But think about all the elfs what are they gonna do???

[OT]

Actually, as far as the US is concerned, only the east and west coasts will be flooded.
If the polar ice all melted tomorrow, the global ocean level would only rise by 20 feet.

[DrMoab]

i remember somthing from my science class that if the overall world temp rises 1* more it wil melt the icecaps and we could all drownd.
Did your science teacher drive a Prius? Or maybe a Honda Insight? Did he have Sierra Club posters on the wall?

Even if he was right and even if the polar ice melted I don't think all of us would drown. I sit at 4500 feet. You think 1* of difference is going to raise the sea level 4500 feet?

The only people who have to worry are the ones on the coastlines. And as Maynord James Keeton would say.....See you down in Arizona Bay. :D

'Cept Capn' Ron. I still wanna ride on his boat. :D

[Gnat5680]

didn't drive a prius i think SHE drove a big F-250.

but i see where your going. basicly if the world flooded we here im MN would be safe while all you thrilll seekers on the coast are dead.

HAHAHA

[IntrepidXJ]

but i see where your going. basicly if the world flooded we here im MN would be safe while all you thrilll seekers on the coast are dead.


dead? only if they can't swim. if they can swim, just relocated

[Gnat5680]

dead? only if they can't swim. if they can swim, just relocated

but they would try to rebuild just like New Orleans. and then the floods come back and then they rebuild and so on.

[IXNAYXJ]

i remember somthing from my science class that if the overall world temp rises 1* more it wil melt the icecaps and we could all drownd.
http://antiprotester.com/gore1.jpg=http://antiprotester.com/goering1.jpg
Al Goering?

From his book Earth in the Balance: "...it ought to be possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine over, say, a twenty-five-year period."

Charming.

-----Matt-----

[boise49ers]

didn't drive a prius i think SHE drove a big F-250.

but i see where your going. basicly if the world flooded we here im MN would be safe while all you thrilll seekers on the coast are dead.

HAHAHA
Nope they all will move inland. All them Cali people all over Idaho Colorado Wyoming Utah, New york Philly Boston folks all over Ohio Illinois KENTUCKY
Tennessee. Man the world would truelly be a mess. New Yorkers in Kentucky , kind of like Shites and Sunnis living by each other. :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:
Of course over half the people in Idaho are from California so no big shocker here;)

[OT]

Well, over half the people in California are from Oklahoma, so.........
Man, I hope they don't decide to come back...

[boise49ers]

Well, over half the people in California are from Oklahoma, so.........
Man, I hope they don't decide to come back...

Yep my Ma being one of them. born in Altus and raised in Vallejo, Ca.

[Clint]

Even if he was right and even if the polar ice melted I don't think all of us would drown. I sit at 4500 feet. You think 1* of difference is going to raise the sea level 4500 feet?


If that happens, Capn' Ron can bring his boat to you! :roflmao:

[CRASH]

Even if he was right and even if the polar ice melted I don't think all of us would drown. I sit at 4500 feet. You think 1* of difference is going to raise the sea level 4500 feet?

The only people who have to worry are the ones on the coastlines. And as Maynord James Keeton would say.....See you down in Arizona Bay. :D

'Cept Capn' Ron. I still wanna ride on his boat. :D


Actually, the mean annual sea level rise at the San Francisco (Gauge No. 9414290) is 2.13 millimeters/year (0.70 feet/century) with a
standard error of 0.14 mm/yr, based on monthly mean sea level data from 1906 to 1999.

If that trend continues, and the rate of increase does not rise, we'll be in water conveyance trouble in about 15 years.

[woody]

Actually, the mean annual sea level rise at the San Francisco (Gauge No. 9414290) is 2.13 millimeters/year (0.70 feet/century) with a
standard error of 0.14 mm/yr, based on monthly mean sea level data from 1906 to 1999.

If that trend continues, and the rate of increase does not rise, we'll be in water conveyance trouble in about 15 years.

And when do you retire?

[dizzymac]

Gas jumped last here last week for $2.98 to $3.14 a gal. Theyr'e gonna get us up to $4+ a gal. one way or another.

[DrMoab]

Gas jumped last here last week for $2.98 to $3.14 a gal. Theyr'e gonna get us up to $4+ a gal. one way or another.
The oil companies are shooting them selfs in the foot. One thing about these stupid prices is that it is pushing all the smart people out there to come up with different ways to power things.

I would dance and sing if Exxon, Chevron, BP and the others had to file bankruptcy.

[Gnat5680]

Gas jumped last here last week for $2.98 to $3.14 a gal. Theyr'e gonna get us up to $4+ a gal. one way or another.

i want to be where you are. we haven't seen a $2 mark in a couple weeks. i doubt i will seen one ever again in my life.

[Gnat5680]

now you can see what the prices are at around my area.


http://www.twincitiesgasprices.com/index.aspx?s=Y&fuel=A&area=Bloomington&area=Burnsville&area=Eagan&area=Eden%20Prairie&area=Edina&area=Richfield&area=Savage&area=Shakopee&tme_limit=24

this is the entire area around me.

[SCW]

i remember somthing from my science class that if the overall world temp rises 1* more it wil melt the icecaps and we could all drownd.

well i will leave that to the next few generations. we blame the people before us for things that are wrong now. i am just gonna give them something to bi^ch about in the future.

One degree is rediculus, but so is the drowning of the entire world.

Any change in volume of the earths oceans would be progressivley harder to do simply because of the fact that you have to have 3 times as much water to increase the second inch as you had for the first inch.

The earth is 6200 miles in diameter (at the equator) and according to the USGS we have over 5 1/2 million cubic miles of glaciers.

The volume of the earth is 9.98x10^11 cubic miles. Increasing the volume by 5.7 million miles makes the new volume 998,311,691,925 miles, making the new radius 6200.0118 miles.

total distance of the calamity will be 62.3 feet. Not even enough to get the mexicans out of LA, but it would improve the crime rate in New Orleans (again).

[Gnat5680]

http://www.twincitiesgasprices.com/Prices_nationally.aspx



http://www.twincitiesgasprices.com/Price_By_County.aspx?state=MN&c=usa

[Gnat5680]

i guess there is also www.GasBuddy.com

[SCW]

While I'm debunking, the partial vapor pressure of water is the name given to quantify the energy required to evaporate or condense water.

The log of the vapor pressure is inversely proportional to the temperature of the system, which means that as the temperature goes up, the energy required for condensation also goes up.

Think about breathing outside in the winter, your temp is up, and the water in your breath condenses very readily in the colder environment.

One theory (that I ascribe to, the earth has been moderating itself for longer than the sky has been falling) states that global warming will in fact cause increased condensation in the atmosphere, and when the water hits the upper, cooler parts of the atmosphere we will enjoy a net cooling, rather than longterm increased temperatures.

Crap, we are going into another ice age, the sky is falling. Ho hum, I need to water the grass.

[XJ Dreamin']

I have a plan to take over the world oil industry.





A coordinated action to violently insert scary clowns simultaneously into the board room of each major oil company around the world. The rate of heart failure among the old fogies masterminding this absurd rape of the consumer should allow the clowns to effect multiple coups, taking over operations of each company.


The only hitch: Do we trust the scary clowns any more than we trust the clowns already in charge? Quite the quandary.

[OT]

Yes.

[XJ Dreamin']

Yes.

I have to agree. Despite what scary clowns do to my fragile psyche :eyes: , better a scary clown that the bozos in charge.

[Rocketman]

I have a plan to take over the world oil industry.







ME TOO. I plan on buying them out... 20 gallons at a time! :laugh3:

[XJ Dreamin']

...all the smart people...

but there are so few of us

[XJ Dreamin']

ME TOO. I plan on buying them out... 20 gallons at a time! :laugh3:

That's like buying out Mars/M&M one M&M at a time...


...at $4.00 a piece.


It would cost you Brazillions of dollars!

[CRASH]

I think you may be missing the point, 2 inches of sea level rise will cost coastal municipalities a boat load of money to deal with. Read that as a large tax increase, not something I'm looking forward too.

I do hope the self-regulating condensation theory can be expanded upon, we are watching the science very closely. Not quite developed enough to put stock in right now.

One degree is rediculus, but so is the drowning of the entire world.

Any change in volume of the earths oceans would be progressivley harder to do simply because of the fact that you have to have 3 times as much water to increase the second inch as you had for the first inch.

The earth is 6200 miles in diameter (at the equator) and according to the USGS we have over 5 1/2 million cubic miles of glaciers.

The volume of the earth is 9.98x10^11 cubic miles. Increasing the volume by 5.7 million miles makes the new volume 998,311,691,925 miles, making the new radius 6200.0118 miles.

total distance of the calamity will be 62.3 feet. Not even enough to get the mexicans out of LA, but it would improve the crime rate in New Orleans (again).

[XJ Dreamin']

I think you may be missing the point, 2 inches of sea level rise will cost coastal municipalities a boat load of money to deal with. Read that as a large tax increase, not something I'm looking forward too.

I do hope the self-regulating condensation theory can be expanded upon, we are watching the science very closely. Not quite developed enough to put stock in right now.

Self-regulating, sure: but, not to our specifications and not in ways that are easily predicted.

I hear you, Crash. The scale of change in ocean levels against the scale of the world might be miniscule. The scale of economic impact, OTOH, will (to put it mildly) shock the common tax payers right out of their comfy little worlds. I don't envy you, tasked with maintaining the status quo against forces you have no means to control. Retire soon and sell any beach front property you may have.

[CRASH]

It's interesting work, the science is evolving daily. Trying to scale global and hemispherical climate models to a regional scale is challenging. Right now, we can produce predictions within a fairly wide confidence interval, we work every day to try and narrow those, and then build a future scenario for planning infrastructure improvements.

Right now, for California, the future is looking like a 10% loss of snowpack, with earlier melting, and an increased chance for large flood events. This means we need more reservoir space to catch the precip that falls as rain rather than getting "stored" as snow.

A couple of inches of sea level rise and temperature change doesn't seem like much, but when coupled with greater extremes (see XJ Dreamin's graphics), it's a very complicated scenario to plan for. And really gawddamned expensive.

[Lawn Cher']

I look on the bright side... instead of moving back to NJ to resume living within close proximity of the ocean, I'll just wait right here in MO for it to come to me.

[CRASH]

Found the SF guage online so you can see for yourself what we are dealing with:

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/trends/9414290.gif

Note the negative anomaly line in 1906 to account for a shift in guage elevation due to plate shift.

And to put to rest the really large sea level rise numbers I saw posted earlier in this thread, under the most aggressive climate change scenario, using fairly large increased emmission scenarios, you get a 2.9 foot increase in sea level by 2100:

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/images/fig11-12.gif

[SCW]

Interesting stuff, Crash.

My point in showing the 60-foot change was that there is now way it will dramaticaly alter life as we know it. Sure, floriduh will be gone as we know it and we will end up with a lot more blue-haired ladies driving 35mph in the fast lanes around Spokane, but life will not be erradicated. Yes, it will be a huge financial burden, but not life-altering for the general public of the world. I would be interested in seeing the effects of the changes in salinity, especially near large rivers.

I really believe this is all a non-issue. We may be seeing a trend of warmer highs around the world, but we really don't know enough about temp trends over the past 3000-4000 yeas to make any snap decisions. Whether humans contribute to the warming is equally "mystic", we can't produce nearly the amount of greenhouse gas as natural processes in the ocean no matter how hard we try. Are we contributing just enough to toss us over the edge? It would have to be a pretty fragile system for that to happen, and we already made it through the sooty, smokey black days of the industrial revolution, many times worse in all aspects.

I definatley can't see blaming one country, or one administration for the problem. The entire world has been benifiting from good and raw materials in North America for 400 years, and now they are cocky enough to complain about the amount of "pollution" per capita here, when we are producing goods for the globe.

Anyway, this is a long way from blaming Bush for a rusty pipe, not really sure how we got here-

[boise49ers]

Interesting stuff, Crash.
Anyway, this is a long way from blaming Bush for a rusty pipe, not really sure how we got here-
No rusty pipes when Clinton was in office. He had Monica.
:laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:

[CRASH]

I really believe this is all a non-issue. We may be seeing a trend of warmer highs around the world, but we really don't know enough about temp trends over the past 3000-4000 yeas to make any snap decisions. Whether humans contribute to the warming is equally "mystic", we can't produce nearly the amount of greenhouse gas as natural processes in the ocean no matter how hard we try. Are we contributing just enough to toss us over the edge? It would have to be a pretty fragile system for that to happen, and we already made it through the sooty, smokey black days of the industrial revolution, many times worse in all aspects.


From ice core data, we have some idea about temperatures and Co2 levels over a pretty long period. Here's a graph and a bit of speculation:

http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg

Over the last 400,000 years the Earth's climate has been unstable, with very significant temperature changes, going from a warm climate to an ice age in as rapidly as a few decades. These rapid changes suggest that climate may be quite sensitive to internal or external climate forcings and feedbacks. As can be seen from the blue curve, temperatures have been less variable during the last 10 000 years. Based on the incomplete evidence available, it is unlikely that global mean temperatures have varied by more than 1°C in a century during this period. The information presented on this graph indicates a strong correlation between carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere and temperature. A possible scenario: anthropogenic emissions of GHGs could bring the climate to a state where it reverts to the highly unstable climate of the pre-ice age period. Rather than a linear evolution, the climate follows a non-linear path with sudden and dramatic surprises when GHG levels reach an as-yet unknown trigger point.


I definatley can't see blaming one country, or one administration for the problem. The entire world has been benifiting from good and raw materials in North America for 400 years, and now they are cocky enough to complain about the amount of "pollution" per capita here, when we are producing goods for the globe.



Definately agree with that!

[XJ Dreamin']

Anyway, this is a long way from blaming Bush for a rusty pipe, not really sure how we got here-

The original topic was boring. This is much more interesting.

Crash: Thanks for the chart. It's purty! I was going to ask if it was compensated for plate movement, but the 1906 annomily answers that.

Change will come, SCW. Wait and see. How we adapt is the question. If the change is slow enough, the average American consumer might not notice much, but I wouldn't be surprised if the world population didn't drop back down to 5 billion by 3006.

[CRASH]

The original topic was boring. This is much more interesting.

Crash: Thanks for the chart. It's purty! I was going to ask if it was compensated for plate movement, but the 1906 annomily answers that.

Change will come, SCW. Wait and see. How we adapt is the question. If the change is slow enough, the average American consumer might not notice much, but I wouldn't be surprised if the world population didn't drop back down to 5 billion by 3006.


What the Al Goreski's want you to believe is that change is only occuring because of humans. Look at the last graph I posted, change happens all the time, warming and cooling are in endless flux, even back when humans more closely resembled chimps.

In essence, change happens, deal with it!

(Just to interject some religiion into this, because it's not controversial enough, if you believe the world was created in 7 days, 6,000 years ago, my arguments probably don't mean much to you!)

[Lawn Cher']

(Just to interject some religiion into this, because it's not controversial enough, if you believe the world was created in 7 days, 6,000 years ago, my arguments probably don't mean much to you!)

What does the Jeepin' Rabbi have to say about this?

[Gnat5680]

The original topic was boring. This is much more interesting.


Thanks.













But this is a little more fun

[XJ Dreamin']

From ice core data, we have some idea about temperatures and Co2 levels over a pretty long period. Here's a graph and a bit of speculation:

http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg

Over the last 400,000 years the Earth's climate has been unstable, with very significant temperature changes, going from a warm climate to an ice age in as rapidly as a few decades. These rapid changes suggest that climate may be quite sensitive to internal or external climate forcings and feedbacks. As can be seen from the blue curve, temperatures have been less variable during the last 10 000 years. Based on the incomplete evidence available, it is unlikely that global mean temperatures have varied by more than 1°C in a century during this period. The information presented on this graph indicates a strong correlation between carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere and temperature. A possible scenario: anthropogenic emissions of GHGs could bring the climate to a state where it reverts to the highly unstable climate of the pre-ice age period. Rather than a linear evolution, the climate follows a non-linear path with sudden and dramatic surprises when GHG levels reach an as-yet unknown trigger point.




Definately agree with that!

Nice. Doesn't stay warm very long, does it? At least not until lately. Of course, the last 10,000 years is the Holocene. I wonder when people started range burning. The origin of agriculture has been pushed back to 6,000 years. Give them a few thousands of years prior to that of burning naturally seeded grasses and you get 10,000 years of unnaturally high CO2 emissions.

Still, it doesn't seem that it would be too hard to get it to drop back down. It seems to prefer being cooler rather than hotter. Back in the '70s I read a SciFi story where all the high latitude cities went underground because of the glaciers. The premise was that human CO2 emission was holding back the natural cycle that wanted to go to ice age. In greening up our emissions the cycle was tripped precipitously into a mega-iceage. An interesting idea from the early years of global warming.

[CRASH]

The premise was that human CO2 emission was holding back the natural cycle that wanted to go to ice age. In greening up our emissions the cycle was tripped precipitously into a mega-iceage. An interesting idea from the early years of global warming.


If you check out the March, 2005 Scientific American, there is a very good article on just this topic, including the cultivation practices of early agricultural societies.

[XJ Dreamin']

Anyway, this is a long way from blaming Bush for a rusty pipe, not really sure how we got here-

The original topic was boring. This is much more interesting.



Thanks.

Sorry. I should say, the original topic became a boring political fracus. This is way more fun. Especially now that Crash has brought all this data. Who brought the beer? I'm getting dry, here (and hot) :laugh2:

[XJ Dreamin']

If you check out the March, 2005 Scientific American, there is a very good article on just this topic, including the cultivation practices of early agricultural societies.

I will do that. Thanks. Should be in the city library.

[XJ Dreamin']

What the Al Goreski's want you to believe is that change is only occuring because of humans. Look at the last graph I posted, change happens all the time, warming and cooling are in endless flux, even back when humans more closely resembled chimps.

In essence, change happens, deal with it!

(Just to interject some religion into this, because it's not controversial enough, if you believe the world was created in 7 days, 6,000 years ago, my arguments probably don't mean much to you!)

Not only does change happen, but in a big way, we can't do anything about it. The Corp trying to hold back the Mississippi, New Orleans trying to hold back the ocean...and yet, puny changes can render massive movements in a dynamic system. The problem is, are you ready? I'm going to give you the answer here while we may be responsible for the recent anomalous warm period, that represents a tiny fraction of a tremendously larger phenomenon.

Here's an allegory: A 40,000 ton boulder was slowly being eroded from a cliff face. While the boulder should have dislodged some time ago, the people began propping it up with sand and gravel. Now a faction has decided that preventing the boulder from following it's natural course was a mistake. They are saying that we should let nature take it's course. They propose to simply stop building the prop and let the boulder fall. Some are saying that we have actually been forcing the boulder back onto ourselves and if we don't take action to remove the prop now, one day soon the boulder will crush us. Either way, it's a 40,000 ton boulder. Do you want to wait to see who's right? Who wants to go under there and dig out the sand and gravel? Should we remove the prop completely, or just take a little at a time, or just leave it alone? Or is it all a load of hogwash: the boulder is fine, the boulder is good, prop up the boulder, bow down and worship* the boulder - after all, we've put all that energy into propping it up. Do you want to throw all that work out the window and just let the boulder go? Oh dear, oh dear. What to do? What to do?

*There's your relious theme, Crash.

[Lawn Cher']

I say we try to drive up the boulder.

[XJ Dreamin']

I say we try to drive up the boulder.

There ya' go. Problem solved. That's a beer, right there. I'll be home for Christmas, maybe Thanksgiving. I'll PM you for delivery instructions. That deserves a :thumbup:

[Lawn Cher']

There ya' go. Problem solved. That's a beer, right there. I'll be home for Christmas, maybe Thanksgiving. I'll PM you for delivery instructions. That deserves a :thumbup:

Thanks, but I won't be around. Thanksgiving is at my parents in Florida and XMas is at my in-laws in Jersey.

[XJ Dreamin']

Thanks, but I won't be around. Thanksgiving is at my parents in Florida and XMas is at my in-laws in Jersey.

Damn. Unless I get my a$$ to a meet-n-greet sometime, it probably won't be until next 4th, then.

[5-90]

Okay, these are some seriously greedy bastards. They made $7.3 BILLION in the last fiscal quarter (that looks like this: $73,000,000,000.00) and they couldn't properly test or maintain their infrastructure in the last 14 years, even though the engineers designed it to only last until 2002?!?!? WTF!???!?


Sorry, but 7.3 billion looks like this - 7,300,000,000. You have seventy-three billion written out longhand - you're off by an order of magnitude...

I still can't help but wonder what all these assorted CEO's and Execs usually do to actually justify their salaries and perquisites - it doesn't seem to be actual work. Wasn't there some petro exec who got a $60M severance/retirement package recently? How's that work again? What was done to earn that?

CRASH - Just out of curiousity, what's all the "B1", "A1T", and other acronymia on your sea level chart, and where did you get those? I'd like to better understand the charts, and I'm inclined to think I should look at them a little closer...

5-90

[XJ Dreamin']

still can't help but wonder what all these assorted Ceo and Execs usually do to actually justify their salaries and perquisites - it doesn't seem to be actual work. Wasn't there some petro exec who got a $60M severance/retirement package recently? How's that work again? What was done to earn that?

...............__________0.008219
60000000/ 7300000000

60 million is only 8/10 of 1% of 7.3 billion. Why, that's only a pittance. Cut the poor guy some slack, will you?

[XJ Dreamin']

"B1", "A1T", and other acronymia

I assumed those were acronyms for various global models.

[GSequoia]

From ice core data, we have some idea about temperatures and Co2 levels over a pretty long period. Here's a graph and a bit of speculation:

http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg

Over the last 400,000 years the Earth's climate has been unstable, with very significant temperature changes, going from a warm climate to an ice age in as rapidly as a few decades. These rapid changes suggest that climate may be quite sensitive to internal or external climate forcings and feedbacks. As can be seen from the blue curve, temperatures have been less variable during the last 10 000 years. Based on the incomplete evidence available, it is unlikely that global mean temperatures have varied by more than 1°C in a century during this period. The information presented on this graph indicates a strong correlation between carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere and temperature. A possible scenario: anthropogenic emissions of GHGs could bring the climate to a state where it reverts to the highly unstable climate of the pre-ice age period. Rather than a linear evolution, the climate follows a non-linear path with sudden and dramatic surprises when GHG levels reach an as-yet unknown trigger point.




Definately agree with that!

As usual when you start talking about this science stuff my brain hurts. ::wierd:

Good reading ;)

[TRNDRVR]

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I'm sure it deserves;

!!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1

[5-90]

...............__________0.008219
60000000/ 7300000000

60 million is only 8/10 of 1% of 7.3 billion. Why, that's only a pittance. Cut the poor guy some slack, will you?

Pittance be damned. He made more a year than I'll make in a lifetime, what did he need more for? It's bad enough I have to, by extension, pey those exhorbitant salaries (and so do you...) but it's worse when he gets more for NOT WORKING ANYMORE than I'll ever make working.

5-90

[OT]

Jon, You know, as well as everyone else, that when you make a company billions of dollars, you become worth at least a lions share of that.
Millions in severance, when talking about billions in worth, is much like hundreds, when talking about thousands.
I recieved $10,000 in severance, when I got out of the AF and it sure seemd worth it to me!

[5-90]

Jon, You know, as well as everyone else, that when you make a company billions of dollars, you become worth at least a lions share of that.
Millions in severance, when talking about billions in worth, is much like hundreds, when talking about thousands.
I recieved $10,000 in severance, when I got out of the AF and it sure seemd worth it to me!

Yeah, I know - but we all have to pay for that.

I didn't get a severance package when I got out of the AF, but the pension has probably exceeded $10K by now. Considering what I went through to earn that (I still have trouble with my knee, and a little less with my shoulder,) I'll take it. At least that's earned money.

I haven't run across a lot of CEO's who actuallydo anything. I think they got jealous of the NFL - there's another job lot of overpaid individuals (actually, "pro sports" in general is hideously overpaid, for what they actually risk. If football players want to continue making those exhorbitant sums of money, then take away all the pads and introduce explosives into the ball - then, I might be interested enough to watch a game every now and again. As it stands, I only watch replays of injuries, and compare it to what they're getting paid...)

5-90

[boise49ers]

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I'm sure it deserves;

!!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1
Damn and I was looking for your help early on and got spanked by these guys so I quit :laugh3:
You could of helped me blame all the worlds problems on Dumbass and helped me piss off everyone.
That was joke Glenn don't ban me Please;)

[TRNDRVR]

Damn and I was looking for your help early on and got spanked by these guys so I quit :laugh3:
You could of helped me blame all the worlds problems on Dumbass and helped me piss off everyone.
That was joke Glenn don't ban me Please;)Well you know me......it's god's fault.

[XJ Dreamin']

Pittance be damned. He made more a year than I'll make in a lifetime, what did he need more for? It's bad enough I have to, by extension, pey those exhorbitant salaries (and so do you...) but it's worse when he gets more for NOT WORKING ANYMORE than I'll ever make working.

5-90

Maybe I should have added one of these :D to the end of my post.

I'm with you, 5-90.

[XJ Dreamin']

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I'm sure it deserves;

!!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1

Only the first half. Since we abandoned political bickering, it's been alot more fun.

[Gnat5680]

(actually, "pro sports" in general is hideously overpaid, for what they actually risk. If football players want to continue making those exhorbitant sums of money, then take away all the pads and introduce explosives into the ball - then, I might be interested enough to watch a game every now and again. As it stands, I only watch replays of injuries, and compare it to what they're getting paid...)

5-90

Same here!!!!:D:D:D

[5-90]

Same here!!!!:D:D:D

What do you think about this idea - have a timer in the ball and a pound of Comp B, and have the timer reset with a magnetic switch. The referee wears magnet rings to restart the timer, and it resets to a random interval from one to four minutes.

That should see to all this "delay of game" crap we're seeing with the huddles and the like, and cut out all this "end zone celebration" as well.

Besides, if you're going to make some ungodly amount of money, then the potential for fatality should damn well be real...

5-90

[CRASH]

CRASH - Just out of curiousity, what's all the "B1", "A1T", and other acronymia on your sea level chart, and where did you get those? I'd like to better understand the charts, and I'm inclined to think I should look at them a little closer...

5-90

Jon, you can read the whole report, or selected summaries, here: http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/

Click on the "scientific basis."

Here's a summary of scenarios from that report:

A1. The A1 storyline and scenario family describe a future world of very rapid economic growth, global population that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, and the rapid introduction of new and more efficient technologies. Major underlying themes are convergence among regions, capacity building and increased cultural and social interactions, with a substantial reduction in regional differences in per capita income. The A1 scenario family develops into three groups that describe alternative directions of technological change in the energy system. The three A1 groups are distinguished by their technological emphasis: fossil intensive (A1FI), non-fossil energy sources (A1T), or a balance across all sources (A1B) (where balanced is defined as not relying too heavily on one particular energy source, on the assumption that similar improvement rates apply to all energy supply and end use technologies).

A2. The A2 storyline and scenario family describe a very heterogeneous world. The underlying theme is self-reliance and preservation of local identities. Fertility patterns across regions converge very slowly, which results in continuously increasing population. Economic development is primarily regionally oriented and per capita economic growth and technological change are more fragmented and slower than in other storylines.

B1. The B1 storyline and scenario family describe a convergent world with the same global population, that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, as in the A1 storyline, but with rapid change in economic structures toward a service and information economy, with reductions in material intensity and the introduction of clean and resource-efficient technologies. The emphasis is on global solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability, including improved equity, but without additional climate initiatives.

B2. The B2 storyline and scenario family describe a world in which the emphasis is on local solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability. It is a world with continuously increasing global population, at a rate lower than A2, intermediate levels of economic development, and less rapid and more diverse technological change than in the B1 and A1 storylines. While the scenario is also oriented towards environmental protection and social equity, it focuses on local and regional levels.

[XJ Dreamin']

Jon, you can read the whole report, or selected summaries, here: http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/

Click on the "scientific basis."

Here's a summary of scenarios from that report:

A1. The A1 storyline and scenario family describe a future world of very rapid economic growth, global population that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, and the rapid introduction of new and more efficient technologies. Major underlying themes are convergence among regions, capacity building and increased cultural and social interactions, with a substantial reduction in regional differences in per capita income. The A1 scenario family develops into three groups that describe alternative directions of technological change in the energy system. The three A1 groups are distinguished by their technological emphasis: fossil intensive (A1FI), non-fossil energy sources (A1T), or a balance across all sources (A1B) (where balanced is defined as not relying too heavily on one particular energy source, on the assumption that similar improvement rates apply to all energy supply and end use technologies).

A2. The A2 storyline and scenario family describe a very heterogeneous world. The underlying theme is self-reliance and preservation of local identities. Fertility patterns across regions converge very slowly, which results in continuously increasing population. Economic development is primarily regionally oriented and per capita economic growth and technological change are more fragmented and slower than in other storylines.

B1. The B1 storyline and scenario family describe a convergent world with the same global population, that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, as in the A1 storyline, but with rapid change in economic structures toward a service and information economy, with reductions in material intensity and the introduction of clean and resource-efficient technologies. The emphasis is on global solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability, including improved equity, but without additional climate initiatives.

B2. The B2 storyline and scenario family describe a world in which the emphasis is on local solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability. It is a world with continuously increasing global population, at a rate lower than A2, intermediate levels of economic development, and less rapid and more diverse technological change than in the B1 and A1 storylines. While the scenario is also oriented towards environmental protection and social equity, it focuses on local and regional levels.

Which one is the story line where I win the lottery? I vote for that one ;)

[Gnat5680]

What do you think about this idea - have a timer in the ball and a pound of Comp B, and have the timer reset with a magnetic switch. The referee wears magnet rings to restart the timer, and it resets to a random interval from one to four minutes.

That should see to all this "delay of game" crap we're seeing with the huddles and the like, and cut out all this "end zone celebration" as well.

Besides, if you're going to make some ungodly amount of money, then the potential for fatality should damn well be real...

5-90

i dont think the ball should explode to end it. if the ball just got over inflated and blew up that would be better. just install an air bag in there.

after the bal goes boom and does not injer someone. there mother should blow up as they are running towards her screming "HELP MOMMY THE BALL WENT BOOM!!!!!"

[Root Moose]

Pittance be damned. He made more a year than I'll make in a lifetime, what did he need more for? It's bad enough I have to, by extension, pey those exhorbitant salaries (and so do you...) but it's worse when he gets more for NOT WORKING ANYMORE than I'll ever make working.

5-90
Damn, is 5-90 turning commie?

[Root Moose]

A1. The A1 storyline and scenario family describe a future world of very rapid economic growth, global population that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, and the rapid introduction of new and more efficient technologies. Major underlying themes are convergence among regions, capacity building and increased cultural and social interactions, with a substantial reduction in regional differences in per capita income. The A1 scenario family develops into three groups that describe alternative directions of technological change in the energy system. The three A1 groups are distinguished by their technological emphasis: fossil intensive (A1FI), non-fossil energy sources (A1T), or a balance across all sources (A1B) (where balanced is defined as not relying too heavily on one particular energy source, on the assumption that similar improvement rates apply to all energy supply and end use technologies).

A2. The A2 storyline and scenario family describe a very heterogeneous world. The underlying theme is self-reliance and preservation of local identities. Fertility patterns across regions converge very slowly, which results in continuously increasing population. Economic development is primarily regionally oriented and per capita economic growth and technological change are more fragmented and slower than in other storylines.

B1. The B1 storyline and scenario family describe a convergent world with the same global population, that peaks in mid-century and declines thereafter, as in the A1 storyline, but with rapid change in economic structures toward a service and information economy, with reductions in material intensity and the introduction of clean and resource-efficient technologies. The emphasis is on global solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability, including improved equity, but without additional climate initiatives.

B2. The B2 storyline and scenario family describe a world in which the emphasis is on local solutions to economic, social and environmental sustainability. It is a world with continuously increasing global population, at a rate lower than A2, intermediate levels of economic development, and less rapid and more diverse technological change than in the B1 and A1 storylines. While the scenario is also oriented towards environmental protection and social equity, it focuses on local and regional levels.

Given the fractious nature of just about everything that has a SIG or national interest I figure we'll end up with a blur of all four and a slow time line.

<sigh />