This proves Utah should just be closed down!

[seanR]

I would like to know the rest of the story"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

[Starboard M]

Signing the citation doesnt admit guilt.


The guy driving the durango was a dick, and wouldnt shut up and listen to the officer. He also proceeded to get out of the car, and get confrontational with the officer. While putting his hands in his pockets.


In the end, I think that the guy should at least be sited. I think arrest is a little extreme, especially considering the officer really had no reason to pull the guy over in the first place. The guy would not listen to simple instructions, and started to provoke the officer.

edit: I didnt realize the officer was arresting the guy for failure to sign the ticket. Thats retarded.

[kdailey4315]

Signing the citation doesnt admit guilt.


The guy driving the durango was a dick, and wouldnt shut up and listen to the officer. He also proceeded to get out of the car, and get confrontational with the officer. While putting his hands in his pockets.


In the end, I think that the guy should at least be sited. I think arrest is a little extreme, especially considering the officer really had no reason to pull the guy over in the first place. The guy would not listen to simple instructions, and started to provoke the officer.

edit: I didnt realize the officer was arresting the guy for failure to sign the ticket. Thats retarded.

What fawking video were you watching? The cop asked him to get out of the car. The he asked him to turn around so the guy did. Yes he started walking toward his car because he was scared shitless of the taser pointed at him. The cop never warned him to stop or I will taser you. Yes signing a citation doesn't admit guilt but the officer should have warned him that he could be arrested for not signing the citation. The driver was not hostile in any way. He was arguing with the cop but they are trained on how to handle that. And believe me it is not asking himto get out of the car then taser him. How about the way he was treating the woman? That was uncalled for. And don't forget when he starts lying to the other cops and tries to persuade them once they arrived. This cop did so many things wrong, it's not funny.

[Starboard M]

What fawking video were you watching? The cop asked him to get out of the car. The he asked him to turn around so the guy did. Yes he started walking toward his car because he was scared shitless of the taser pointed at him. The cop never warned him to stop or I will taser you. Yes signing a citation doesn't admit guilt but the officer should have warned him that he could be arrested for not signing the citation. The driver was not hostile in any way. He was arguing with the cop but they are trained on how to handle that. And believe me it is not asking himto get out of the car then taser him. How about the way he was treating the woman? That was uncalled for. And don't forget when he starts lying to the other cops and tries to persuade them once they arrived. This cop did so many things wrong, it's not funny.
I have no idea how the police are trained to use their tazers. I would assume that a verbal warning is required, but I have no idea.

The guy started walking back and forth, and to me, he seemed very agitated. By putting his hands in his pockets, how do you know he wasnt reaching for a weapon?

The way he treated the wife might have been harsh, but she would not listen, like her husband. I can understand her attitude, but she made things worse by screaming at the officer. She also got the guy going again about suing and such.

I didnt hear any lies when talking to the other cops. He stated the same "facts" as he did to the driver. Yes the "speeding" is questionable, but again, I didnt hear any lies.

[kdailey4315]

Watch it again his hand weren't in his pockets he was fidling with some buttons on his pants. I wasn't referring to traing on tasers I was referring to how the cop handle the whole thing. They are trained on how to avoid esclating a situation. It was misuse of force plain and simple. Both parties were wrong for the way they handled it but no way should he have been taser. The cop didn't even attempt to place him in custody before whipping out his taser.

[jmaxj]

i still don't see why this proves utah should be shut down this does proves that UHP should get off there power trip it's not the first i've seen someone arrested by UHP for not signing a citation of theirs and not telling you exactally why you were stopped or how fast or anything they should

[SCW]

I'd love to be that kid. He's the wealthiest kid on his block now.

Stupid cop. "I was placing him under arrest and that's just the way it is."

The only way this was justified is if the guy was trying to move here from California. :D

[Kejtar]

OK, call me crazy but if a cop pulls you over, sign the damn piece of paper and argue the point later. If a cop tells you to turn around and put your hands behind your back, you do that. If you start walking back and forth, yeah the cop is going to get twitchy. Especially if you conceal one of your hands behind your body (look at the left hand: you can't see it) and start walking away.

Oh yeah, I am not real current on laws and everything but I think that if you don't sign the paper they give you, they have the right to place you under arrest or detain you or something.

Bottom line: while the speeding ticket might have been questionable, the driver got all he deserved.

Oh yeah, watched the vid one more time. Only problem that I see is with the last statement when the cop said that he gave a warning on taser usage but it is likely that it was one of those memory under stress things. Hard to say.

[Kejtar]

The cop didn't even attempt to place him in custody before whipping out his taser.

You'd want him trying to wrestle with a guy on the side of the road as the vehicles are flying by????? His statement: please place your hands behind your back was simple enough. Anyways, I agree that the cop could have handled it way better .... but I don't think he really is at fault here.

[Captain Ron]

You guys that think the cop is overstepping.

What do you not understand about "Sign the ticket".

It's not negotiable.

What do you not understand about "Put your hands behind your back".

It's not negotiable.

The dip shit kid got what was coming to him. The girl got very lucky she didn't too.

--ron

[kdailey4315]

You'd want him trying to wrestle with a guy on the side of the road as the vehicles are flying by????? His statement: please place your hands behind your back was simple enough. Anyways, I agree that the cop could have handled it way better .... but I don't think he really is at fault here.

How can the cop not be at fault? There was no reason to taser the guy. I guess you're right though tasering him with the possibility of him falling into the street unable to move is much better than attempting to arrest him. besides if he would have tried to cuff him and then he resisted then it would have been ok to taser him.

[w_howey]

My dad taught me a very good safety point a LONG time ago.

If you are in a disagreement and only one of you has a gun, the guy with the gun automatically wins.......

[Kejtar]

How can the cop not be at fault? There was no reason to taser the guy. I guess you're right though tasering him with the possibility of him falling into the street unable to move is much better than attempting to arrest him. besides if he would have tried to cuff him and then he resisted then it would have been ok to taser him.
OK: guy resisted, was agitated and as a result I can see why he cop considered him a threat.

[5-90]

In most states you can refuse to sign the ticket (it's not an "admission of guilt," but in traffic court you're pretty much "guilty until proven innocent...")

At that point, the office has a choice of how to proceed - he can either call for another officer to witness the fact that you're refusing to sign the ticket, or he can take you in - depends on whether he can summon a second officer in a reasonable amount of time (which is typically taken to be about a half-hour, I think.)

Granted, this varies according to the state vehicle codes - check yours! - but that's the usual mechanism. As I say so often elsewhere, "Check your local vehicle code." Next time you go into your local DMV, invest a few bucks in a copy - they should have them on hand. The price is set by law, and usually less than $10. And, it's well worth it.

No, I didn't watch the video (no need to go into my opinion on cops in general,) but the preceding is based upon what I know from vehicle codes in Indiana, California, Texas, and Mississippi (places where I've lived the longest.)

[Kejtar]

If you are in a disagreement and only one of you has a gun, the guy with the gun automatically wins.......
To me that's Darwin at work!

[Stumpalump]

I side with the cops 99.9 percent of the time. I could not watch past the point where he yelled at the girl but i hope the guy got up and kicked the sheet out of that pig.

[Rev Den]

Should have just shot him.

Amazing how so many people can not follow a simple instruction.

Rev

[Boatwrench]

Outrageous...but let's not close a state because of two dicks.

The guy was a dick...it took two minutes to get the registration & license.

The cop was a dick, he started with with commanding 'Right Now!" as soon as he was questioned at the window.

The cop never told the dick in the durango he would be arrested if he didn't sign the citation, didn't explain the citation was just an agreement to appear. Therefore again the cop was a dick.

The cop told the dick in the durango to get out of the vehicle, and then went to full tilt instead of getting the dick from the durango to the shoulder, unsafe move. His instructions to the dick from the durango (dftD) were clear enough when the DFTD was facing him, but when the dftd turned his back, the cops instructions were the SAME, that is Turrn around! OK dick cop, can't have it both ways. Then when back up arrives and they are discussing, the way that cop is acting I'm surprised hi-fives didn't get passed around, it's like he got the Lindburgh baby kidnaper..hey you didn't arrest Bin Laden, just some schmuck.

Captain Ron & Ketjar are correct sign the ticket and shut up...but this dick cop should not be on the force.

This is what happens when two guys with small penises get together on opposite sides of an arguement. I am glad I am no longer in LE.

Rant out.

[Ironmen77]

DFTD acts like someone who got his way with mommy and daddy and maybe the school system by arguing until they gave in. That didn't work here.
Sign the ticket then argue.

[DrMoab]

I live in Utah and yup....
I am a DICK.

Thank you.
Outrageous...but let's not close a state because of two dicks.

The guy was a dick...it took two minutes to get the registration & license.

The cop was a dick, he started with with commanding 'Right Now!" as soon as he was questioned at the window.

The cop never told the dick in the durango he would be arrested if he didn't sign the citation, didn't explain the citation was just an agreement to appear. Therefore again the cop was a dick.

The cop told the dick in the durango to get out of the vehicle, and then went to full tilt instead of getting the dick from the durango to the shoulder, unsafe move. His instructions to the dick from the durango (dftD) were clear enough when the DFTD was facing him, but when the dftd turned his back, the cops instructions were the SAME, that is Turrn around! OK dick cop, can't have it both ways. Then when back up arrives and they are discussing, the way that cop is acting I'm surprised hi-fives didn't get passed around, it's like he got the Lindburgh baby kidnaper..hey you didn't arrest Bin Laden, just some schmuck.

Captain Ron & Ketjar are correct sign the ticket and shut up...but this dick cop should not be on the force.

This is what happens when two guys with small penises get together on opposite sides of an arguement. I am glad I am no longer in LE.

Rant out.

[IntrepidXJ]

I live in Utah and yup....
I am a DICK.

Thank you.

we know :looser:

[Rev Den]

I live in Utah and yup....
I am a DICK.

Thank you.

Yup...Utah....Dodge.....it adds up.

:D

Rev

[5-90]

I am glad I am no longer in LE.

I can imagine. My wife was in LE for a brief period years ago - before she blew her ACL. Me? I don't have the patience for it (and I'd be profiled out anyhow - I blew my knee in the AF.)

I've noticed, over the last 10-15 years, that "good cops" are getting fewer and fewer. Many of them seem to me like the kids that lost their lunch money in the first recess in grammar school, and now they're making up for it.

Granted, the threat has also gotten worse (both that they're facing in the field, and that they're facing in the media) as well, but that doesn't explain the shift in basic personality I've seen... Too many of the "bully" sort getting behind the shield, and I find that worrisome. What happened to the "protector" mentality that used to be prevalent in LE? People who weren't making up for the past or for personal flaws, but who actually believed in the work they were doing, and just wanted to make the world a better place for everyone (and didn't care about recognition, for the most part?)

[Stumpalump]

Whats LE?

[Kejtar]

Whats LE?
Law enforcement. Other acronym is LEO and that's law enforcement officer.

[WB9YZU]

Incredible.

The driver wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I learned a long time ago that it just does not pay to do anything but ask simple questions, be polite, as this generally doesn't cost you anything, and get it over with.

The Officer does not have to tell you how fast you were going, or even show you the radar. Arguing about signage is stupid. Chances are that the Officer knows exactly where all the signage is, whether it is clearly visable or not.

The Driver was being unreasonable, in that he was trying to argue with the Officer. Unless this is something that is important, you just don't bother. In this case, the sign was unimportant and should have been taken up at a later date.

Failing to sign the ticket can cause you to be arrested as the Officer has charged you with a crime, speeding in this case, and by signing the ticket you agree to appear at a court date or pay the fine. You are not admitting guilt, but are agreeing to either contest the ticket in court, or pay the fine. http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/traffic_law/refuse_ticker.htm

The Driver should have just STFU, signed the ticket, and contested it later.

The Officer was also at fault, and perhaps more so, because his job is to keep little things from becoming major ones.
He allowed a simple traffic stop to evolve into something unquestionably wrong.
When confronted with the Driver not willing to sign the ticket, he should have explained that signing the ticket is not an admission of guilt, but an agreement to show up at court, or to pay the fine, and that not signing it would result in his arrest. When he asked the Driver to exit the vehicle, there was no mention that the Driver was now under arrest, even though that should have been the words out of the Officers mouth, and the Charge. Instead he allowed the Driver to argue further, and to walk around. At that point, he pulls a taser, which further confuses the upset Driver. The tasering of the Driver also upsets the Woman in the car (who I believe should have called 911). After tasering the Driver, he still doesn't take care of business, and lets the Driver walk around again. He did lie to the Officer who showed up at the scene in that he never told the Driver "Turn around and put your hands behind you back or I'll taser you".

This video should be a training tape, both for Drivers and Officers.
>Drivers on what the Driver did wrong and how such a stupid traffic ticket evolved into an arrest.
>Officers on how to handle Drivers who just don't get it, but otherwise have not done anything wrong.

Final analysis? Two wrongs don't make an airplane ;) :twak:

Ron

[kennzz05]

that cop is a dick plain and simple hes got short man syndrome

[Ray H]

Thats one cop that should lose his job and flip hamburgers for the rest of his life.
Actually, he probably was flipping hamburgers a couple months earlier, now hes got a haircut, badge and a gun...... Oh, and a Taser.
The cop may have been scared but thats because hes a pu$$y. That guy seemed a little slow and confused, maybe even belligerent, but by no means was he threatening. The only reason the guy was out of the car was because he was told to get out. Heres what the cop had in mind, get the guy out of the car, into handcuffs and in his backseat so he could search his vehicle opening up the possibility of finding something illegal. Not signing a citation is NOT a reason to do this. The signature on a citation means nothing, you dont need to sign and if you dont, its not a big deal. The cop shouldve just handed him his copy, told him to have a nice day and they both wouldve driven off. The reason that didnt happen is because the cop is a chicken s**t with a bigger ego then testicles.

[Ray H]

Thats one cop that should lose his job and flip hamburgers for the rest of his life.
Actually, he probably was flipping hamburgers a couple months earlier, now hes got a haircut, badge and a gun...... Oh, and a Taser.
The cop may have been scared but thats because hes a pu$$y. That guy seemed a little slow and confused, maybe even belligerent, but by no means was he threatening. The only reason the guy was out of the car was because he was told to get out. Heres what the cop had in mind, get the guy out of the car, into handcuffs and in his backseat so he could search his vehicle opening up the possibility of finding something illegal. Not signing a citation is NOT a reason to do this. The signature on a citation means nothing, you dont need to sign and if you dont, its not a big deal. The cop shouldve just handed him his copy, told him to have a nice day and they both wouldve driven off. The reason that didnt happen is because the cop is a chicken s**t with a bigger ego then testicles.

[XJoshua]

I havent seen the video nor care to.

Simple rules whe being pulled over:
-Put vehicle in park
-Turn off ignition
-Remove keys and sit on dash
-Roll down window half way
-Once cop approaches and tells you whats up, shut up and listen
-Ask before doing the next step make the leo feel safe
-Retrieve you liscence, regisration and insurance calmly and without sudden movement
-Take a deep breath and chill while he runs you through the system
-If he asks to search your vehicle you have the right to say no unless he sees a visible reason and notes it out to you. Usually just to comply.
-Read anything and ask questions on what you are signing.
-If at anytime you feel uncomfortable or feel like you are being treated unfairy you may ask for another officer to arrive.
-You can ask for a warning. Only the officer can deside this for minor traffic traffic violations.


Now this is just a simple guide that I follow and has gotten me out of stupid tickets. Rights are just guidlines. Only real rule to being pulled over it to make the LEO feel safe and yourself(this is when the window goes up further and you ask for another LEO).

[slider]

ok here's my take. the cop may have been alittle gruff. maybe the last stop was an accident with some dead bodies. doesn't matter, after he told the guy to put his hands on the car. the response shouldn't be. "what are you doing" if you watch the guys hands (as i did. i've done some small time security stuff) the left hand is out of view, the right hand seems to be grasping for something the the leg pocket. the guy keeps heading for his vehicle. based on all the warnings the guy put up, i would have done the same thing. as far as yelling at the wife. the cop doesn't know her intent. he has to keep control of the situation. as far as everybody saying what they would do. how many of you have been alone and in that type of situation? fairly stressfull at best. the place to fight the ticket is in court, not the side of the road. your never going to talk the cop out of the ticket. sign the ticket, go on your way. gather your own evedence if that was the first 40mph sign. go to court and fight it.

ok i'm done now. back to your regularly scheduled reads. :D

[karstic]

I havent seen the video nor care to.

Simple rules whe being pulled over:
-Put vehicle in park
-Turn off ignition
-Remove keys and sit on dash
-Roll down window half way
-Place hands on steering wheel
-Once cop approaches and tells you whats up, shut up and listen
-Ask before doing the next step make the leo feel safe
-Retrieve you liscence, regisration and insurance calmly and without sudden movement
-Take a deep breath and chill while he runs you through the system
-If he asks to search your vehicle you have the right to say no unless he sees a visible reason and notes it out to you. Usually just to comply.
-Read anything and ask questions on what you are signing.
-If at anytime you feel uncomfortable or feel like you are being treated unfairy you may ask for another officer to arrive.
-You can ask for a warning. Only the officer can deside this for minor traffic traffic violations.


Now this is just a simple guide that I follow and has gotten me out of stupid tickets. Rights are just guidlines. Only real rule to being pulled over it to make the LEO feel safe and yourself(this is when the window goes up further and you ask for another LEO).


Good advice, my addition in BOLD

[Ray H]

ok here's my take. the cop may have been alittle gruff. maybe the last stop was an accident with some dead bodies. doesn't matter, after he told the guy to put his hands on the car. the response shouldn't be. "what are you doing" if you watch the guys hands (as i did. i've done some small time security stuff) the left hand is out of view, the right hand seems to be grasping for something the the leg pocket. the guy keeps heading for his vehicle. based on all the warnings the guy put up, i would have done the same thing. as far as yelling at the wife. the cop doesn't know her intent. he has to keep control of the situation. as far as everybody saying what they would do. how many of you have been alone and in that type of situation? fairly stressfull at best. the place to fight the ticket is in court, not the side of the road. your never going to talk the cop out of the ticket. sign the ticket, go on your way. gather your own evedence if that was the first 40mph sign. go to court and fight it.

ok i'm done now. back to your regularly scheduled reads. :D

Ive been in that situation. Many years ago, seems like another life, I was a sheriffs deputy.
Putting all the childishness, of both the subject and the cop, aside, it comes down to this.
The Taser is an alternative to using deadly force and is supposed to be used in place of deadly force. Its not supposed to be used in place of less dangerous forms of force such as pepperspray or physically restaining the subject. The officer skipped all the less aggressive methods to control the subject. You need to ask the question, "would the use of deadly force be proper in this situation? I dont think anyone (well most) would think shooting the guy wouldve been appropriate. If the use of deadly force wouldnt be appropriate, then the use of a Taser isnt either because they can, and have been deadly. Its always kind of funny watching the guy blather around on the ground screaming until he doesnt get up afterwards,

[Stumpalump]

It made the news.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312466,00.html

[G.Q. Jeeper]

Typical Cops, given them an inch and they take a mile.

We just had a horrible taser death here in Canada by some inept cops, for law enforcement to use them the situation must be serious, this proves time and time again Cops are not responsible or mature enough to handle these "weapons"

Jeff

[sgtmack]

[QUOTE=
The Taser is an alternative to using deadly force and is supposed to be used in place of deadly force. Its not supposed to be used in place of less dangerous forms of force such as pepperspray or physically restaining the subject. [/QUOTE]


For us, in the military, the Taser is a LESS THAN LETHAL application of force. It is on the same level as pepper spray and pain compliance techniques. It is up to the issuing agency to decide what level of force they consider it to be, but AFAIK, most departments put it on less than lethal level. I have officers from 4 departments in my unit that carry Tasers, and all of them had to be tasered before they carry it.

I would NEVER!!!! use a taser where I felt deadly force was appropriate. If I decide deadly force is needed, I want to make sure they don't get up in 5 seconds to threaten me again. It can, however be used to de-escalate a situation that would have required deadly force if the Taser were not available. But is not a substitute for deadly force.

Tasers are a very useful tool if used properly. We don't need any one to equate them with the same level of force as a firearm. The lefty loons are already trying to get them banned, they don't need help from us.

If your local department considers it lethal, I'm glad I don't live there.

I didn't watch the video, so this is in no way a comment on the officers use of his Taser. Like any other use of force, great care must be used to ensure it is used appropriately.

Rant off.

[87manche]

I'm surprised no one's said it yet.









Don't tase me bro!

[Tom R.]

This cop was WAY out of line. Actually, he helped set up the situation so that he could "justify" using the taser. Nothing but a power trip.

By the way, in an interview the young man said he thought the cop had his handgun drawn and didn't know it was a taser. Did anyone notice when he was zapped he went straight as a board and fell backwards into the asphalt? Man, that had to hurt.

It seems to me that tasers ought to be in a category between pepper spray, "pain compliance technques," etc., and deadly force. Despite the claim that tasers aren't lethal, the reality is they can and do kill. Someone already mentioned the recent killing of a traveller in a Canadian airport. I saw the video. Not only was the use of the taser completely unwarranted, it killed the guy pretty damn quick. Just because the vast majority of people don't die doesn't mean tasers aren't lethal.

As a cop, if you use a taser and don't consider its use potentially lethal, then I'm glad you don't work here.

[Kejtar]

It seems to me that tasers ought to be in a category between pepper spray, "pain compliance technques," etc., and deadly force. Despite the claim that tasers aren't lethal, the reality is they can and do kill. Someone already mentioned the recent killing of a traveller in a Canadian airport.
Well... there is no link between taser usage and deaths so you're jumping to a lot of conclusions there.

I saw the video. Not only was the use of the taser completely unwarranted, it killed the guy pretty damn quick. Just because the vast majority of people don't die doesn't mean tasers aren't lethal.

Yeah.. and let me put it this way: armchair quarterbacking sucks. The reporter that shot the video and was on scene after the event FULLY supported the LEO"s decision to use tasers. Then way later, at the comfort of his house he watched the video he changed his mind and spoke out against the usage of taser. What does that mean? A situation is hard to guage at the moment it's occuring. No matter what training you have, no matter on your background it's often hard to read what are the potentials scenarios that can spin off from what is currently happening. So... again.. armchair quarterbacking sucks.......

[Tom R.]

Well... there is no link between taser usage and deaths so you're jumping to a lot of conclusions there.
Okay Remi, live in an ignorant world if you so choose.

[Kejtar]

Okay Remi, live in an ignorant world if you so choose.
not sure how long you've been following the taser usage but I've been keeping an eye on it for nearly a year and a half and noone can conclusively say anything. Heck... folks keel over dead sometimes for no reason whatsoever. So the fact that the two occur within a certain amount of time next to each other is not a conclusive proof that they are linked by anything other then coinsidence. I can't remember the statistic that was posted in regards to the taser usage in US, but the numbers are staggering. So the number of the fatalities after the usage is something like 1 in hundreds of thousands if not more. So if tasers were lethal wouldn't the number be higher??????

[DrMoab]

Okay Remi, live in an ignorant world if you so choose.
Pot calling kettle?

:confused1

[Kejtar]

Pot calling kettle?

:confused1
rotflmao

[Tom R.]

Pot calling kettle?

:confused1
Well, since you asked I'll answer by saying I don't know. It depends on how you define it. Do you want to discuss the main topic on hand or throw out red herrings and nitpick?

rotflmao
Remi, stop being so easily amused. It's embarrassing to the rest of NAXJA.

[Kejtar]

Remi, stop being so easily amused. It's embarrassing to the rest of NAXJA.
:moon: I thought his comment was right on and that's what made me laugh.

Btw, if you take all of life so seriously you'll not have any fun. Have a laugh, get easily amused. It's good for ya :D

[DrMoab]

Do you want to discuss the main topic on hand or throw out red herrings and nitpick?
Well...not really the main topic cause I agree that he was a little overbearing.

That being said, Remi is right about the taser issue. Thats what I was referring to.

The media has really hyped up the whole taser issue but there has never been any real data on if they are dangerous or not.

The only thing I have ever seen about it is that if you have a pre-existing heart condition you "might" be more likely to get hurt.

Honestly though, Cop being over bearing or not. The kid had it coming. He is a Darwin award waiting to happen.

[Kejtar]

Honestly though, Cop being over bearing or not. The kid had it coming. He is a Darwin award waiting to happen.
x2 especially if he thought it was a real gun! At that point if you're smart you go to yes sir no sir no matter whether you're right or not!

[Tom R.]

That being said, Remi is right about the taser issue. Thats what I was referring to.

The media has really hyped up the whole taser issue but there has never been any real data on if they are dangerous or not.

Why is Remi right? Because it fits in neatly with your beliefs?

It's a false premise to suggest no real data exists on whether tasers are dangerous or not. There most certainly is data, but you must actually put a little effort into looking for it. The end result of the taser studies is that serious injuries and deaths are so low that, for most, they don't warrant attention. I don't dispute the extremely low number of deaths attributed to tasers, but simple ask: how many deaths would be considered acceptable? How many is too many?

[5-90]

Why is Remi right? Because it fits in neatly with your beliefs?

It's a false premise to suggest no real data exists on whether tasers are dangerous or not. There most certainly is data, but you must actually put a little effort into looking for it. The end result of the taser studies is that serious injuries and deaths are so low that, for most, they don't warrant attention. I don't dispute the extremely low number of deaths attributed to tasers, but simple ask: how many deaths would be considered acceptable? How many is too many?

Devil's Advocate here - how many cases of "mistaken" shootings by LEOs have resulted in deaths that weren't, legally speaking, necessary? By that same logic, we could argue that cops shouldn't be armed in the first place (which I'll argue - but I won't argue that most of them need better training in the use of their firearms. Most "officer-involved shooting" stories that have been related to me seem to show a lack of marksmanship training under stress...)

Can a Taser kill someone? Certainly. Can you visually identify the sort of person that could be killed by a Taser? Probably not - the issues that are complicated (leading to mortality) are usually internal. However, you can kill someone with a toothbrush if you are so inclined. You can hit a person hard enough to kill them with your own hands, if you're in reasonably good physical condition. Should we take hands away from people? Toothbrushes? Hairbrushes? It's a slippery slope...

A Taser is another tool in the kit available to law enforcement. A "reasonable" individual (whatever that is...) should not escalate a situation to the point where any of those tools become necessary, but a Taser is considered a "less lethal" option (note I didn't say "non-lethal") that can be a step or two short of drawing a sidearm. In the force continuum, it is acceptable to respond with the same level of force being presented against you, or one level higher. (Current and former LEOs should know what I'm talking about.) That's why there are pain compliance holds, chemical agents, electronics, sticks - all are steps short of drawing a sidearm.

Now, I won't automatically side with the LEO - nor will I automatically side with the victim/citizen. I don't have enough information to form a cogent opinion (usually,) and there's no sense in going off half-cocked. Having spent a few years on Debate in high school, I learned that you had damn well better be able to support an opinion - and "just because" won't do. If you can't defend a point of view, you neither understand or hold it properly. (Probably why I have a difficult time with matters of faith.)

Was I there? No. Did I watch the video? No - it won't give me enough to form an opinion anyhow. I'm not going to be sucked into being biased based on not having enough information - I don't know what was going on in the head of either individual (I could probably guess, but I don't like doing that either.)

Yes, there are incidents of mortality coincident with the use of a Taser. Were they proximately caused by Taser use? Maybe. Where there other factors? I'd be willing to bet my next paycheque on it. This doesn't make the Taser any less dangerous - and puts it relatively high in the force continuum. However, it's still a "less lethal" option than firearms - since it's less likely to be fatal when used. I'd still be willing to consider it a viable force option, but it may be misplaced in the force continuum of most departments.

[Kejtar]

Why is Remi right? Because it fits in neatly with your beliefs?

It's a false premise to suggest no real data exists on whether tasers are dangerous or not. There most certainly is data, but you must actually put a little effort into looking for it. The end result of the taser studies is that serious injuries and deaths are so low that, for most, they don't warrant attention. I don't dispute the extremely low number of deaths attributed to tasers, but simple ask: how many deaths would be considered acceptable? How many is too many?
but HOW do you link deaths to taser usage? Just cause they occured within some sort of a time bracket that someone deems to be appropriate? Show me some proof that the two are linked by anything else then concidence. I'm not saying that taser is responsible or not responsible for the deaths. All I'm saying is that there is nothing to back the statement that there is a link thus taking us to a poisition that till some sort of evidence is presented upon us to link the two there is no link......

[Fergie]

NM, not worth the hassle....

[sgtmack]

There is some risk involved in any use of force. However, in researching Taser safety for our unit, I was unable to find any cases where the Taser alone was a cause of death. Every documented case was the result of other contributing factors. It boils down to a cost/benefit equation. Is the risk of someone with an underlying medical condition getting tased greater than the benefit of the thousands of successful deployments? I believe, if used properly, the Taser is a valuable tool for law enforcement. My civilian officers who have used them agree. I would have loved to have had one when I was doing LE on active duty.
Just my .02.

[Trail-Axe]

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Both the officer and those they are sworn to protect, would benefit from a course in Verbal Judo. Situations like this one can sometimes be prevented with a well trained and honed demeanor. Anyone involved in this type of public service, or works in a leadership role, should check out the following:


"Verbal Judo, or Tactical Communications, is the gentle art of persuasion that redirects others behavior with words and generates voluntary compliance." http://www.verbaljudo.com/ (http://www.verbaljudo.com/)

[seanR]

OK, does any one eles see that it looks like the cop pulled the sign out of his trunk and set it up as a speed trap?

Or am I on crack?

[Ray H]

OK, does any one eles see that it looks like the cop pulled the sign out of his trunk and set it up as a speed trap?

Or am I on crack?

No but something I did notice after watching it again. The speed limit sign is a temporary one thats only about 2' above the ground and the cop pulled off right in front of the sign. It wouldnt surprise me if the guy actually couldnt see the sign or at least didnt notice it because it was partially or completely blocked by the police car.
Would that change anyones opinion of the guy if he truely couldnt see the sign because the officer blocked it with his car?
I think it may be likely that I would end up arguing with the officer if I honestly didnt see the sign and was certain in my mind that it wasnt there. Could it be the whole situation took place because of something stupid like the officer pulling off the road right in front of the sign?

[seanR]

How about when the guy says, "I drive this road all of the time, the speed limit is 55.", or "Officer can you show me the speed limit sign?"?
The cop reminds me of my cousin, the over bearing cop who feels that the constitution went out with slavery....
"You must listen to me, I am right, I have a badge and gun!"

[DrMoab]

Why is Remi right? Because it fits in neatly with your beliefs?

It's a false premise to suggest no real data exists on whether tasers are dangerous or not. There most certainly is data, but you must actually put a little effort into looking for it. The end result of the taser studies is that serious injuries and deaths are so low that, for most, they don't warrant attention. I don't dispute the extremely low number of deaths attributed to tasers, but simple ask: how many deaths would be considered acceptable? How many is too many?
On the other side of this, how many tasers do you think have been used that have saved lives instead of shooting someone?

If I was an idiot like this kid and stupid enough to put my hand somewhere the cop couldn't see it, I would much rather be hit by the taser than shot.

[JohnX]

I hope the cop gets a raise.

When you get your license, you sign a paper that says if you are issued a ticket, then you have the right to sign it or appear immediately before a judge. This is the same time that you agree to take a breath test for alcohol if a peace officer requests it. The guy had a license and therefor knew what he was supposed to do. He didn't do it and he got what was coming.

Yeah, the cop could have been nicer, could have explained the ticket signing better (maybe he did, with traffic not every word was heard), could have tried to calm the guy down.....blah blah blah, but he was still following the law....you sign, or you go.

[Tom R.]

Really, I've never had a problem with tasers. It's more to do with the person behind the device.

A couple of recent deaths as a direct result of being tased have me questioning the reported death rate, though. One study I was perusing today said that while there are deaths directed contributable to tasers, they are so infrequent that it's not an issue. Should we just accept this? Would you feel differently if it was one of your family members who died?

If someone dies from being tased and it's proven that a pre-existing medical condition contributed to the death, the taser still caused the death. It's that simple. I ran over a senior citizen, but it was old age that killed him. The autopsy proved he was really old, despite my car making a pancake out of him. Nice logic.

If you have a medical condition and your doctor specifically told you to avoid being tased, will you allow yourself to be tased to prove they don't kill? Yeah, I didn't think so.

5-90 & sgtmack, just so you know, I agree with most everything you both are saying. The taser is a valuable tool. I think in the case of the UHP, it was completely inappropriate. The young man was asking many questions like many of that generation do, but the cop did NOTHING to avoid escalating the situation. Actually, he enabled the situation to get more out of control. I agree with others who suggest this trooper has "little man" disease. He was rude from the beginning and throwing his "authority" around. I have no time for nits like that. He deserves to be fired before getting a raise. Last time I checked, we still have rights.

[Tom R.]

On the other side of this, how many tasers do you think have been used that have saved lives instead of shooting someone?

I don't know. That's a good question, though.

[JohnX]

If you ALMOST hit a senior citizen with a heart condition and scare them into a heart attack, did you kill them?

[Tom R.]

When you get your license...
Heh, the way most Utahns drive, it's obvious they know little of the law. ;)

[Ray H]

If you ALMOST hit a senior citizen with a heart condition and scare them into a heart attack, did you kill them?

If you amost hit him on purpose, you're a killer and would be charged. That would fall into the same category as a drunk driver hitting and killing someone. You didnt plan for them to die but because of your irresponsible actions, they did.

[Tom R.]

If you ALMOST hit a senior citizen with a heart condition and scare them into a heart attack, did you kill them?
Sorry, I'm not playing the "if" game. Anyone can "if" a situation to death.

[kdailey4315]

If you ALMOST hit a senior citizen with a heart condition and scare them into a heart attack, did you kill them?

Unlikely, but you could be charged with involentary manslaughter

[5-90]

Really, I've never had a problem with tasers. It's more to do with the person behind the device.

A couple of recent deaths as a direct result of being tased have me questioning the reported death rate, though. One study I was perusing today said that while there are deaths directed contributable to tasers, they are so infrequent that it's not an issue. Should we just accept this? Would you feel differently if it was one of your family members who died?

If someone dies from being tased and it's proven that a pre-existing medical condition contributed to the death, the taser still caused the death. It's that simple. I ran over a senior citizen, but it was old age that killed him. The autopsy proved he was really old, despite my car making a pancake out of him. Nice logic.

If you have a medical condition and your doctor specifically told you to avoid being tased, will you allow yourself to be tased to prove they don't kill? Yeah, I didn't think so.

5-90 & sgtmack, just so you know, I agree with most everything you both are saying. The taser is a valuable tool. I think in the case of the UHP, it was completely inappropriate. The young man was asking many questions like many of that generation do, but the cop did NOTHING to avoid escalating the situation. Actually, he enabled the situation to get more out of control. I agree with others who suggest this trooper has "little man" disease. He was rude from the beginning and throwing his "authority" around. I have no time for nits like that. He deserves to be fired before getting a raise. Last time I checked, we still have rights.

"Given sufficient evidence, a Board of Inquiry can prove anything."

The Taser (and stun guns, while we're about it) has served to add another "level" to the force continuum. There are, as mentioned, risks to any use of force.

Until they come up with something better, I'm sure the Taser will remain as a valid step on the "path to lethal force." However, there is a reason that there is a shift to the usage of the term "less lethal" instead of "non-lethal" - about the same time (and reasoning) and the shift from "accidental discharge" to "negligent discharge." Is the Taser less lethal than a firearm? Certainly. Is it not lethal? What is?

People have been killed by being shot with riot control rounds (stunballs and beanbag rounds, mainly) - even though they're primarily designed to not kill, the possibility is still there. I believe it was a repeat or three of that sort of incident that caused the "non-lethal/less lethal" shift.

The only situation that is truly non-lethal is the one you don't get into in the first place, so don't do anything that has the potential to put you in harm's way, unless you're willing to accept the fact that it could get you hurt. Or killed.

I'm sure that, if I were to watch this video (and I don't watch much that's on Youtube or anything similar - there's probably an agenda involved, and I don't usually agree with it...) I could probably analyse right into the ground. Refer to my quote above (rather a military truism.) I'm not on a board of inquiry, so I really don't need to see it for myself. I'm not trying to form an opinion, or justify (or discredit) a course of action taken on any party.

sgtmack - I've been out of circulation for a bit - but is it "Less Than Lethal" or "Less Lethal?" I've been seeing it more often as "Less Lethal", but I'd like to make sure.

[8Mud]

OK, call me crazy but if a cop pulls you over, sign the damn piece of paper and argue the point later. If a cop tells you to turn around and put your hands behind your back, you do that. If you start walking back and forth, yeah the cop is going to get twitchy. Especially if you conceal one of your hands behind your body (look at the left hand: you can't see it) and start walking away.

Oh yeah, I am not real current on laws and everything but I think that if you don't sign the paper they give you, they have the right to place you under arrest or detain you or something.

Bottom line: while the speeding ticket might have been questionable, the driver got all he deserved.

Oh yeah, watched the vid one more time. Only problem that I see is with the last statement when the cop said that he gave a warning on taser usage but it is likely that it was one of those memory under stress things. Hard to say.
Just an opinion, but I think the Police should be held to at least the same standard as anybody else. Actually maybe a higher standard because they are supposed to be professionals, at the very least they should be competent.
I tend to give most any situation like that the mirror test. If the Cop got a flee bite in his crotch, felt the need to scratch and reached in the direction of his holster, would I have the right to use non lethal force to stop him?
I'm not saying better or worse, but it seems apparent the direction of law enforcement in the much of the US may be causing more problems than it solves.
I've never been pulled over in the 35 years I've lived here in Germany for anything. I've had maybe three stops at a roadside control (drunk check), once my ID checked in a bar and a few tickets in the mail because I got photographed driving too fast. I'm far from being a model citizen, don't feel the need for conformity and habitually drive a little too fast.
The Police basically have a live and let live type of policy here, avoid confrontation and are very slow to use any kind of force.
People say it's a chitty job and dangerous. Actually being a Lumber Jack, statistcally, is a much more dangerous job.
Ronald Regan summed it up rather nicely in a spot on the news back in the 70`s. The L.A. police chief said they need more stringent gun control laws to protect his officers from the population. Ronny says, a better alternative may be not to pizz off the population.

[JohnX]

If someone dies from being tased and it's proven that a pre-existing medical condition contributed to the death, the taser still caused the death. It's that simple. I ran over a senior citizen, but it was old age that killed him. The autopsy proved he was really old, despite my car making a pancake out of him. Nice logic.

If you have a medical condition and your doctor specifically told you to avoid being tased, will you allow yourself to be tased to prove they don't kill? Yeah, I didn't think so.







Sorry, I'm not playing the "if" game. Anyone can "if" a situation to death.
If you didn't want to play, then why would you start???

:D :D :D

[slider]

here in wyo. the tazer is considered non-leathal. not an alterative to a gun.the tazer is used for gaining control of subjects who are not following command. as far and the pepper spray. everybody saying they would take pepper spray over the tazer should try it. i've been pepper sprayed. you have ill effects for a very long time. i haven't been tazed yet, but since most of my friends work law enforcement and have been tazed in order to carry one. they all say they would rather be tazed. after a few minutes your back to pretty much your normal self. or i guess the cop could have used the baton. yea...no pain there. and any time a cop can avoid going "hands on" with a subject he'll do it.

[8Mud]

To me it's a citizen who actually paid (taxes) for the privileged of being tazered and will probably hate cops for the rest of his life. Likely vote no for every Police appropriation bill for eternity. May leave the State or even the country if given the opportunity in the future. To be replaced by what sort of citizen? There is an old adage, when you replace someone, you either do worse, better or just about the same. So in affect that Cop has perpetuated a downward spiral. For every citizen he runs off, he is likely to end up with one about the same or worse, no gain.
I've never believed intimidating someone into submission, is reasonable, rational or marginally effective, in the long term. I'm not aganist stepped response, but the process should be designed to avoid confrontation and high testosterone levels.
Here in Germany they would have sent him a ticket in the mail. If he refused to pay, double it, then triple it, then remove the plates from his car and attached his wages. Which seems like a reasonable alternative to tazering him.
Cops over here don't feel the need to dominate. They herd the population much more with process than confrontation.
A process could be worked out to deal with situations just like that, that would be non confrontational.

[Kejtar]

Cops over here don't feel the need to dominate. They herd the population much more with process than confrontation.

yes... they don't feel the need cause they do! I remember being at a concert in Germany once (some punk rock thing) when something happened on the other end and they needed to get a medic through. Cops in riot gear went in and ran in a V formation wth medic in the center. If you weren't out of their way when they reached you, they'd fling you out of the way and you'd have the bruises to show for that the next day.

So comparing the cops in Europe vs ones in US is not really doable as people in US think that they can say/do anything to the cops. In Europe.. well.. you don't screw with them and the cops then don't feel the need to do anything to you.

[Wounded XJ]

1st off how many of you guys slamming this officer for using his Taser have been trained on when and how to use it. In most departments including mine he used the Taser in the manner it was developed for. To prevent injury in a physical confrontation. How many of you want to fight next to a highway?

In some states some speeding violations are criminal. If you refuse to sign the ticket policy states they are to be arrested and brought before a judge.

Most states also say if the arrest that is being made is wrong you still do not have the right to fight or resist an officer. You do not walk away towards your vehicle when an officer tells you to put your hands behind your back.

It is funny that everyone knows how to be an officer after watching a short video. Give me a break! If you can do it better go down and test and prove it.

[Fergie]

1st off how many of you guys slamming this officer for using his Taser have been trained on when and how to use it. In most departments including mine he used the Taser in the manner it was developed for. To prevent injury in a physical confrontation. How many of you want to fight next to a highway?

In some states some speeding violations are criminal. If you refuse to sign the ticket policy states they are to be arrested and brought before a judge.

Most states also say if the arrest that is being made is wrong you still do not have the right to fight or resist an officer. You do not walk away towards your vehicle when an officer tells you to put your hands behind your back.

It is funny that everyone knows how to be an officer after watching a short video. Give me a break! If you can do it better go down and test and prove it.

Maybe the guy with the badge and Tazer needs to watch the video too....he might learn how to be an officer.

8Mud is spot on.

Remi- Injured person needing medical attention in a crowed rock concert vs. speeding ticket. Apples and Oranges maybe?

[Tom R.]

Maybe the guy with the badge and Tazer needs to watch the video too....he might learn how to be an officer.

Remi- Injured person needing medical attention in a crowed rock concert vs. speeding ticket. Apples and Oranges maybe?
Exactly right on both points.

This isn't about whether I or anyone else here can do a better job. The trooper is supposed to be the professional here and it's obvious he was either having a bad day or had an attitude problem. He is the one that created the situation where he felt justified in using the taser.

[Boatwrench]

[QUOTE=Wounded XJ][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]1st off how many of you guys slamming this officer for using his Taser have been trained on when and how to use it. In most departments including mine he used the Taser in the manner it was developed for. To prevent injury in a physical confrontation. How many of you want to fight next to a highway? /QUOTE]


I showed this video to the LE guys here in the office (including a recent graduate of FLETC). The majority of reactions the 1st time through was what a Dumba$$ the guy in the Durango was. After watching it the 2nd & 3rd time through and watching the errors in judgement by both the durango guy and the UHP, only one (an ice breaker guy) said the UHP was correct.
The durango guy was whiner. The UHP officer, in this instance was not a professional.

Just like survival when lost in the woods...one error in judgement led to several others

[Boatwrench]

[QUOTE=Wounded XJ1st off how many of you guys slamming this officer for using his Taser have been trained on when and how to use it. In most departments including mine he used the Taser in the manner it was developed for. To prevent injury in a physical confrontation. How many of you want to fight next to a highway? /QUOTE]


I showed this video to the LE guys here in the office (including a recent graduate of FLETC). The majority of reactions the 1st time through was what a Dumba$$ the guy in the Durango was. After watching it the 2nd & 3rd time through and watching the errors in judgement by both the durango guy and the UHP, only one (an ice breaker guy) said the UHP was correct. The durango guy was whiner. The UHP officer, in this instance was not a professional.

Just like survival when lost in the woods...one error in judgement led to several others

[Stumpalump]

DFTD acts like someone who got his way with mommy and daddy and maybe the school system by arguing until they gave in.


The bigger problem here^^^^^^^^. But you would think the cop would be trained to have patience with a streesed out young man hualing a pregnant chick with him.

[Kejtar]

Remi- Injured person needing medical attention in a crowed rock concert vs. speeding ticket. Apples and Oranges maybe?
umm nope.... it's a matter of authority

[8Mud]

umm nope.... it's a matter of authority
I thunk I see da problum. Fascism is forced conformity, a Democracy is supposed to be the will of the people.
Seriously, the Police only have the authority the people give it, when it gets too far out of balance there is likely to be a backlash. Passive resistance, loss of revenue, civil disobedience or even riot.
Every Cop that uses excess force causes a chain reaction of consequences that goes way beyond the moment.
There is an old story about a guy trying to house break his dog, his friend gave him the tip, to stick his nose in it, swat him once and throw him out the door. A week later he asked how the house training was going, the guy answered not well. I pushed his nose in it, beat on him for awhile and threw him out the window a few times. Now he craps on the floor, sticks his nose in it and jumps out the window.
Somewhere along the line, the object of the whole exercise was lost. The object was to educate the guy not to speed.

[Wounded XJ]

I guess what we should do is fire all of us. I watched the video several times and I would have done the same thing. It is so easy to watch something over and over and say I would have done this. Let’s say the guy get in the car and takes off. Now we have a chase. Then the car slams into another car killing a small kid. Now we say "stupid officer should have stopped that guy and he should be responsible for the kid’s death". As I said before, you all should become officers since you know how to do it better.

[slider]

I guess what we should do is fire all of us. I watched the video several times and I would have done the same thing. It is so easy to watch something over and over and say I would have done this. Let’s say the guy get in the car and takes off. Now we have a chase. Then the car slams into another car killing a small kid. Now we say "stupid officer should have stopped that guy and he should be responsible for the kid’s death". As I said before, you all should become officers since you know how to do it better.


i have to agree with you. alot of people are feeling sorry to the durago guy. but he brought the whole thing on himself. his story is "i thought it was a real gun". well if he thought it was a real gun he difinetly should have followed instrutions alittle better. not knowing why the driver was not following my instructions would have made me do the same thing.

[1985xjlaredo]

cops are XXXXXXs these days. They dont want to get a scratch or get dirty, so hell that guys is smaller than me, with his family, probably doesn't have any training in hand to hand combat or he would have already attacked me and been more aggressive, f*ck it zap him. Oh here comes his pretty wife hey bitch Ill zap you too. Who gives a shit about what happened to that baby inside of you. zap zap zap. it doesn't matter how rude the Dakota driver was he did not show any aggression towards the officer and the officer did not follow procedure.

[1985xjlaredo]

I guess what we should do is fire all of us. I watched the video several times and I would have done the same thing. It is so easy to watch something over and over and say I would have done this. Let’s say the guy get in the car and takes off. Now we have a chase. Then the car slams into another car killing a small kid. Now we say "stupid officer should have stopped that guy and he should be responsible for the kid’s death". As I said before, you all should become officers since you know how to do it better.

So it is your departments policy to tazzer a man who has his back turned to you and is not showing any signs of aggression or force? Why wouldn't you just forcefully approach the man grab his arm and take him into custody?>

[Fergie]

I guess what we should do is fire all of us. I watched the video several times and I would have done the same thing. It is so easy to watch something over and over and say I would have done this. Let’s say the guy get in the car and takes off. Now we have a chase. Then the car slams into another car killing a small kid. Now we say "stupid officer should have stopped that guy and he should be responsible for the kid’s death". As I said before, you all should become officers since you know how to do it better.

Where do I sign?

Hope I'm never in Sedona when you're on duty.

Poor training all around, poor reactions all around, the only caveat is the popo is a professional and he should have done his job.

[Kejtar]

So it is your departments policy to tazzer a man who has his back turned to you and is not showing any signs of aggression or force? Why wouldn't you just forcefully approach the man grab his arm and take him into custody?>
Non compliance, concealment of hand movements are actually signs of threat. Look at it this way: you're in a middle of nowhere someplace on a highway with a non compliant driver and at least one more person in the vehicle. Does not matter if she's pregnant or not. All that adds up to a potential threat.

Yes, the cop chould have handled it all a lot better. Yes he could have been more professional, but at the point he used the taser I believe he was justified to do so. Should he get reamed (in trouble, reprimanded, retrained what have you) for letting things get to the point that they got? yes. But that's about it.

[Wounded XJ]

Where do I sign?

Hope I'm never in Sedona when you're on duty.

Poor training all around, poor reactions all around, the only caveat is the popo is a professional and he should have done his job.

Dude you do not even no me so don't go there. Send me your address and I will send you an app.

[Fergie]

Dude you do not even no me so don't go there. Send me your address and I will send you an app.
You're right, I don't know you.

But, you are a LEO, and that speaks volumes...not very positive volumes I might add.

You also stand behind your poorly trained brethren because of the "Brotherhood."

Beat down and bullied when you were young, or you have a Dudley Doright complex.

We don't need protection from ourselves, and the cops certainly arent stopping the criminals...that is failure in my book. It isnt on you personally in that aspect, just a failed system, you're just a pawn.

[Kejtar]

You're right, I don't know you.

But, you are a LEO, and that speaks volumes...not very positive volumes I might add.
Let me take a sideline here: So when a cop profiles someone cause of the way he or she dresses or acts that's bad. So.. is it OK to bunch all the cops together into the same group?

[Wounded XJ]

It looks to me that is only goes one way.

[Ray H]

Let me take a sideline here: So when a cop profiles someone cause of the way he or she dresses or acts that's bad. So.. is it OK to bunch all the cops together into the same group?

What if I dont think profiling is bad? People WANT to be profiled.

[Trail-Axe]

But, you are a LEO, and that speaks volumes...not very positive volumes I might add. You also stand behind your poorly trained brethren because of the "Brotherhood." Beat down and bullied when you were young, or you have a Dudley Doright complex. We don't need protection from ourselves, and the cops certainly arent stopping the criminals...that is failure in my book. It isnt on you personally in that aspect, just a failed system, you're just a pawn.

So how do we fix it? Seriously, any suggestions for how our "system" might run better?

And maybe wounded XJ, and others like him, are not pawns, or beat down school kids, but real people who care about other real people; real people just like you, and just like me. And though they may not change the system, at least they are doing their part to be a part of a solution. They will never be "the" solution, but I bet they can all attest to a story or two of how they brought peace to someone, or prevented a crime, or saved a life. Maybe we should be a small part of a solution as well; and thank these guys for the tough job they do. Maybe the next time we see them, we might just find out they really do care.

[5-90]

What if I dont think profiling is bad? People WANT to be profiled.

Ignoring that statement (I can't really comment one way or the other - but if I'm going to be profiled, I can think of a few that should be done away with. "Overqualified and undereducated" leaps readily to mind...)

Profiling, done properly, is a useful tool to allow agencies that lack human assets to more effectively utilise those assets. Profiling, done improperly, usually amounts to little more than racism.

Throw in the lack of co-operation that people usually put forth, and I can understand how the "protector" mentality can become sullied - after all, how can you protect your charges if you're dead?

On the other hand (you have more fingers:roflmao: ) there's also the simple fact that more of the "bully" mentality does seem to be making its way into LE. This is not a "personal attack" against anyone here - I've not met most of you, either professionally or socially (and I'd vastly prefer socially.) However, it is a personal observation borne of what I see from day to day.

Remember when cops used to roll in pairs? Two cops - one car. One traffic stop, one car. Now it's one traffic stop, six squads and shut down the road (and yes, I do have a scanner, and I listen to what they're doing. It's better than the news, and usually no spin. However, I don't heard a lot of "Code 6" calls when I see the conventions screwing up traffic - usually, just a speeding ticket or failure to stop.) I can see maybe two squads - since each car has one cop in it. However, having six to eight of them pulling over one man in one car and doing so in a manner to shut down traffic on a busy street and/or at a busy time of day strikes me as excessive.

Got any suggestions for correcting that? Because I can't think of any offhand - however, it does strike me as a problem, and it could use a solution...

[Boatwrench]

Boy this is almost as good a thread to read as trying to do the hammers in an 1985 v6 XJ on on 35's with open 3.55 ratios.
:conceited