Asia-our downfall(just another example)

[RyanM]

It's been a while,

my dad works for a company that makes flush valves(urinals) One of 3 companies of it's kind in America. Couple years ago they had to cut jobs in half. Unfortunately that time came again. Luckily my dad kept his job.

Reason: China units are shipping in cheaper, and assembled, therefore American labor is no longer needed, factory jobs lost.

The company(my dad's) has went from 100% making the parts from pure metal's to 20% making the parts, 80% receiving/shipping.

For the past 10 years, the company has spent millions of dollars to try and maintain to no avail :(

A company flourishing in money in the 80's, now a victom of prospering CHina.

We get screwed either way. We take so much in, no matter how much Lead Poison in our toys, or poison in our dog food. NOW, as result, thats just another step toward China's economy growing----------------what's this mean? They will need more OIL to support this, thus we have to pay more for our gas because freaking CHEEENA is demanding more than usual, yet we have jobless Americans!!!!!


[/rant]

[Fergie]

Please say you are drunk, or classified as clinically retarded.

[5-90]

It's been a while,

my dad works for a company that makes flush valves(urinals) One of 3 companies of it's kind in America. Couple years ago they had to cut jobs in half. Unfortunately that time came again. Luckily my dad kept his job.

Reason: China units are shipping in cheaper, and assembled, therefore American labor is no longer needed, factory jobs lost.

The company(my dad's) has went from 100% making the parts from pure metal's to 20% making the parts, 80% receiving/shipping.

For the past 10 years, the company has spent millions of dollars to try and maintain to no avail :(

A company flourishing in money in the 80's, now a victom of prospering CHina.

We get screwed either way. We take so much in, no matter how much Lead Poison in our toys, or poison in our dog food. NOW, as result, thats just another step toward China's economy growing----------------what's this mean? They will need more OIL to support this, thus we have to pay more for our gas because freaking CHEEENA is demanding more than usual, yet we have jobless Americans!!!!!


[/rant]

And this surprises you why?

[JNickel101]

I wouldnt call him either...he's making a valid point in saying that we're creating our own problems - by contributing so much to China's economy, we're allowing them to grow so much that they are driving up the price of oil - they have no concept of conservation over there....they will use as much oil as possible.

On a totally different note, i feel bad for the Olympic athletes who are going to compete there - I read that the air quality/smog is abysmal...

[RichP]

And you are surprised why ? I've been in the electronics and computer industry since 80 and have watched it go down hill.
If you are hammering on a Dell, Gatway or HP compaq it was built in Mexico.

[Stumpalump]

They are going to offer Chineese as second language at my kids school next year. Will my kids take it? You bet your ass they will take it and it will be the one thing I hope they accell at. China is the future, and if you can comunicate with them and do biz in the USA you can write your own ticket as far as high paying jobs go. Sucks don't it.Thank Bill Clinton for writing the trade policy that sealed our fate. Give some credit to the Unions for punishing american industry off shore. Let's give special thanks to Al Gore who not only gave them the technology to produce missles but allowed the classified Cad computers out of the country to build them. He did it in the middle of the night and before anybody could stop it the ships were in international waters. They have allready used our technology and our computers to shoot down sattalights.(see American defence system). Remember it was the Democraps that punished us off shore and gave them the tecnology to keep us at bay. Now my kids are coherst to join them or risk loosing out.

[RyanM]

Please say you are drunk, or classified as clinically retarded.
Yes I was. This was after having some beers with the paps. It brought me down. No I'm not retarded.

And I can't believe chinese will be a 2nd language in schools

[RyanM]

I wouldnt call him either...he's making a valid point in saying that we're creating our own problems - by contributing so much to China's economy, we're allowing them to grow so much that they are driving up the price of oil - they have no concept of conservation over there....they will use as much oil as possible.

On a totally different note, i feel bad for the Olympic athletes who are going to compete there - I read that the air quality/smog is abysmal...
Thank you JNick

And 5-90 It doesn't surprise me, It was a rant, sorry for taking up your post space

[Fergie]

Yes I was. This was after having some beers with the paps. It brought me down. No I'm not retarded.

And I can't believe chinese will be a 2nd language in schools
TWI is an acceptable excuse in my book.

Before you blame it all on the Chinese and outsourcing, look at the economic factors that are driving the issues here in the U.S.A.

Our wonderful Capitalist economy and mindset, along with the Puritan upbringing of this nation has a lot to do with it.

Your anger is misplaced and better spent/directed towards your elected representatives.

[Stumpalump]

And I can't believe chinese will be a 2nd language in schools

http://www.denverchineseschool.org/flyer_English.pdf

[8Mud]

Somewhere along the way the name of the game changed. GE used to make some straight forward washing machines, nothing fancy, they just worked and lasted forever. They were distributed world wide and were in demand everywhere (even China and Africa).
Same with American automobiles, world wide you'd get more car for the buck buying American. You could say the same thing about Amana or Whirlpool.
Somewhere along the line the bean counters and the engineers fubared something that used to work well. And turned it into a contest, playing by somebody else's rules.
Paraphrasing Sun Tsu, you ain't never going to win, playing the other guys game by his rules.
Bunkering down and trying to hold onto what you have really isn't going to work for long, you have to adapt.
Maybe getting back to basics is the solution to the production cost dilemma. Maybe competing with quality and longevity instead of price, may pay dividends in the long run. You just have to figure out a way to keep the bean counters out of the equation, they are going to invariably want to cut production costs (an quality) to increase the bottom line. And likely screw themselves in the process, when there product gets a bad name for quality and reliability.

[87manche]

Somewhere along the way the name of the game changed. GE used to make some straight forward washing machines, nothing fancy, they just worked and lasted forever. They were distributed world wide and were in demand everywhere (even China and Africa).
Same with American automobiles, world wide you'd get more car for the buck buying American. You could say the same thing about Amana or Whirlpool.
Somewhere along the line the bean counters and the engineers fubared something that used to work well. And turned it into a contest, playing by somebody else's rules.
Paraphrasing Sun Tsu, you ain't never going to win, playing the other guys game by his rules.
Bunkering down and trying to hold onto what you have really isn't going to work for long, you have to adapt.
Maybe getting back to basics is the solution to the production cost dilemma. Maybe competing with quality and longevity instead of price, may pay dividends in the long run. You just have to figure out a way to keep the bean counters out of the equation, they are going to invariably want to cut production costs (an quality) to increase the bottom line. And likely screw themselves in the process, when there product gets a bad name for quality and reliability.

what most people fail to realize is that post WWII we were the only infrastructure left standing. Througout the 50's and 60's we manufactured 80% of the worlds goods, with a fraction of it's total population. That number has been declining for a long time, as all of those nations caught back up to us. Now that China is industrializing they're simply taking their portion of the market share.

[RyanM]

what most people fail to realize is that post WWII we were the only infrastructure left standing. Througout the 50's and 60's we manufactured 80% of the worlds goods, with a fraction of it's total population. That number has been declining for a long time, as all of those nations caught back up to us. Now that China is industrializing they're simply taking their portion of the market share.
That is a good perspective.

[WB9YZU]

Well, there is some of that going on. But overall, Rich made a good point.

We used to make some common sense stuff. The trend though is safe enough to be obsurd, techy enough so if you're older than 25 you can't make it work, and so dam expensive you need a mortage to own it.

Like Rich, I was in the electronics industy, consumer stuff. I really hate to see the RCA, Zenith, Magnavox, or any of the old US electronics brands. Overseas companies bought the brands, and scrapped the rest of the company. RCA is made in China, Zenith is LG, I forgot what loathsome company bought Magotbox's name back from the dead.
I got so tired of old folks calling to ask me to help them setup TVs they just bought. They just could not understand why it couldn't have a dial like their old one, and since they were stuck in that day in age, they were totally helpless.

I own a Jeep, not because it's fancy, but because I can identify the parts.
When Jeep stops making things which make sense, they will loose me as a customer, and if a factory in China can make a machine I can recognize and use well, and it's priced well, I'll likely buy it. I bought a push mower to replace my old one that rusted out. It has a handle, a reel and two wheels, it was inexpensive and built to stay that way. Made in China :(

BTW: We are not alone. This company http://www.proton.co.uk/ in malaysia is in deep poo because their consumers can now buy imports. Go figure :dunno:

Ron

[5-90]

Thank you JNick

And 5-90 It doesn't surprise me, It was a rant, sorry for taking up your post space

It's not "taking up space" - I agree with you, and I've been saying something similar for about 20 years myself. I just wanted to make sure you weren't actually surprised by the idea, or I'd be asking you where you've been hiding for the last 20-30 years.

I don't have a problem with countries "getting their infrastructure back up" (or however you want to phrase it.) What I take issue with is that the market ends up being dominated by shoddy goods (the Chinese never have gotten the hang of heat treatment,) and we're complaining about it - although we're the ones shooting ourselves in the foot (speaking in a general sense, here.)

Look at the debacle with Harbour Freight fuses - the ones that don't blow?

When I took Materials and Processes, I took advantage of the opportunity of having testing machines available that I normally don't have. Did you know that Chinese SAE8 screws tested at about 75-80% of SAE8 screws from just about everywhere else? Or that Chinese 300-series stainless is subject to atmospheric corrosion?

Chairman Mao had the brilliant idea of every family having the ability to smelt metal - without realising that it's a lot more work than you think. The Chinese steel industry has never recovered. Even if their steel used to be Buicks and Fords, they can still screw it up with impurities and failure to heat treat.

I'm not so worried about "lead in the paint" - Hell, how many of us grew up with leaded paint around? - but their plastics aren't that good, either. Chinese petrochemistry is about as good as Chinese metallurgy.

And, as long as we keep paying for the stuff they're making, they won't have any incentive to do it any better. That's where the problem lies - the problem should be self-correcting (and won't be, until we grasp that fact.) I will not knowingly buy anything "made in China" that I expect to put more than my own weight on, I've found it to be a good rule. So far, it's worked.

[RichP]

We need to stop exporting our newest technology overseas and keep it and it's secrets here, let them develop their own technology. Now it seems as soon as we develop something the companies can't export it fast enough.

[87manche]

We need to stop exporting our newest technology overseas and keep it and it's secrets here, let them develop their own technology. Now it seems as soon as we develop something the companies can't export it fast enough.
very true, unfortunately that is the byproduct of a corporate system. A corporations legal duty is to make as much profit as possible for the shareholders, so if that means shipping our latest development to China to be produced then that's what happens.
Unfortunately the Chinese have no concept of "intellectual property", so then they just copy it.

[Slonopotam]

they are driving up the price of oil - they have no concept of conservation over there

:)They do not have to have it.

Driving up the price of oil ?? Let's see.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/ch.html

They consume 3 times less than America, they import 4 times less than US. And they have 4.4 times more people than US. That is average per person 13 times less than here in US. Do they have to conserve yet more ?
Let's try to find out how they could. Most of oil they consume is used to produce consumer goods, and the biggest consumer is ... US. In fact, it is us, people in US, who consume that oil, not Chineese. WE consume it through goods Chineese produce for us.
No matter where those goods are produced some oil will be used up, and I am sure China uses the least amount possible.

Conservation - we have nothing to teach them.
Driving price of oil up ? Are you kidding ?

[JNickel101]

Way to quote info from 2 1/2 years ago, that was probably collected 3-4 years ago....

Gas prices have been shooting up the past 2-3 years, and its b/c China is using more and more...I'll work on finding more data - my brother is a petrol/nat gas engineer. Anyway my point was that we're creating our own high gas prices/oil prices b/c we're buying so much from China, which is boosting their industry, which causes them to use more oil because they are growing, which makes demand for it higher, which drives up the price....

Also, if you look, most of their power production comes from fossil fuels - at least we are making an effort to use nuclear/renewable power....

Read my original post again, I distinctly said that we're creating our own problem by giving them so much business....

Next....

[Slonopotam]

When I took Materials and Processes, I took advantage of the opportunity of having testing machines available that I normally don't have. Did you know that Chinese SAE8 screws tested at about 75-80% of SAE8 screws from just about everywhere else? Or that Chinese 300-series stainless is subject to atmospheric corrosion?


Did you know that their semiconductor factories lose electrical power during precision plasma etching process and in order not to incur losses they asked us not to record the fault ? Did you know that we complied ?
This is basically how good your memory chips are now.

[5-90]

Did you know that their semiconductor factories lose electrical power during precision plasma etching process and in order not to incur losses they asked us not to record the fault ? Did you know that we complied ?
This is basically how good your memory chips are now.

Hm. I somehow fail to be surprised - all around.

"Highly Fault Tolerant" (we tolerate them in all of our products.)

[Slonopotam]

Way to quote info from 2 1/2 years ago, that was probably collected 3-4 years ago....
This page was last updated on 15 November, 2007

Gas prices have been shooting up the past 2-3 years, and its b/c China is using more and more...
Sure, 1-2% drop in oil consumption in US saved the day. The usage dropped mostly due to deteriorating economic conditions.

I'll work on finding more data
Please do.
Anyway my point was that we're creating our own high gas prices/oil prices b/c we're buying so much from China
Because we are using so much. If all of the junk we use today was made here...

Also, if you look, most of their power production comes from fossil fuels - at least we are making an effort to use nuclear/renewable power....
80% in China versus 71% in USA ?
I looked and I am confused now. I do not know how big is the effort, but it certainly does not do much.

Bad, bad Chineese. Let's kill'em. Let's kill them all.

[blaisetd]

To whom do you think we owe a portion of our national debt to? Umm...China!
On a brighter note the wife and I are adopting one of their little girls....

[goodburbon]

Turkey had a big problem with its citizens buying too many foriegn made goods resulting in a trade deficit. Their solution, Import taxes. Tax the living shiat out of anything imported, people start to buy domestic. Of course this helps to build a strong black market as a by-product but the majority of goods purchased in Turkey are now Turkish made.

Here is an Example of what their price tags look like:
___________________________________
Sanyo Microwave oven.......... 75 Ytl
Tax..............................................x 7
Sale price.....................................525 Ytl
_______________________________________

Yes the import taxes are %600 on elecronics there( or maybe 500 I can't remember exactly). The practical upshot is that you pay ~$350 for a $50 microwave because it isn't made there. A Jeep Cherokee runs around $100k-$120k. Guess what, there aren't many around. Most Turks drive a turkish made car if they drive. It seems a little sick, but their economy was kickin ass when I was there. They weren't forcing people to pay ludicrous taxes so much as they were nudging them (albeit a bit forcefully) to buy domestic and not pay the tax.

[RichP]

Turkey had a big problem with its citizens buying too many foriegn made goods resulting in a trade deficit. Their solution, Import taxes. Tax the living shiat out of anything imported, people start to buy domestic. Of course this helps to build a strong black market as a by-product but the majority of goods purchased in Turkey are now Turkish made.

Here is an Example of what their price tags look like:
___________________________________
Sanyo Microwave oven.......... 75 Ytl
Tax..............................................x 7
Sale price.....................................525 Ytl
_______________________________________

Yes the import taxes are %600 on elecronics there( or maybe 500 I can't remember exactly). The practical upshot is that you pay ~$350 for a $50 microwave because it isn't made there. A Jeep Cherokee runs around $100k-$120k. Guess what, there aren't many around. Most Turks drive a turkish made car if they drive. It seems a little sick, but their economy was kickin ass when I was there. They weren't forcing people to pay ludicrous taxes so much as they were nudging them (albeit a bit forcefully) to buy domestic and not pay the tax.

Boy, would we be in trouble, the only thing we make here now are lawyers and overpaid CEO's...

[5-90]

Boy, would we be in trouble, the only thing we make here now are lawyers and overpaid CEO's...

Hm - let's export the lawyers and execs "in trade" or "in kind" (whichever fits) for the goods we get in.

I've thought there were two possible solutions to the "trade deficit" we're saddled with:

1) Import duties - rather like the Turkish ones. Price the "cheap crap" out of range of most people, and use the money to revitalise industry.

2) "Even trades" for imports. You tell us what you want, then we'll request a like economic value in return. Net monetary transfer should be zero or close to it (a couple million can be dealt with, and should even out over time. A couple billion gets serious.) If there is a "trade deficit" one year, there will be a "trade surplus" the next - this will help to even things out. Of course, the Pacific Rim should get a reversal of the trade deficit for the first 10-15 years or so, so we can even out the current trade deficit (you know we've bought most of that crap on credit...)

What say you?

[RichP]

Hm - let's export the lawyers and execs "in trade" or "in kind" (whichever fits) for the goods we get in.

I've thought there were two possible solutions to the "trade deficit" we're saddled with:

1) Import duties - rather like the Turkish ones. Price the "cheap crap" out of range of most people, and use the money to revitalise industry.

2) "Even trades" for imports. You tell us what you want, then we'll request a like economic value in return. Net monetary transfer should be zero or close to it (a couple million can be dealt with, and should even out over time. A couple billion gets serious.) If there is a "trade deficit" one year, there will be a "trade surplus" the next - this will help to even things out. Of course, the Pacific Rim should get a reversal of the trade deficit for the first 10-15 years or so, so we can even out the current trade deficit (you know we've bought most of that crap on credit...)

What say you?
Yes, I agree, seems simple till you get into the business interests that own the politicians and they do, lock stock and barrel. Thats why if a strong third party came about the only way I would be interested is if:
1 they refused ANY money from business interests that have ANY international trade dealings
2 that anyone who ran on that ticket would only run a maximum of 2 times counting the first time they were elected.

[5-90]

Yes, I agree, seems simple till you get into the business interests that own the politicians and they do, lock stock and barrel. Thats why if a strong third party came about the only way I would be interested is if:
1 they refused ANY money from business interests that have ANY international trade dealings
2 that anyone who ran on that ticket would only run a maximum of 2 times counting the first time they were elected.

Yeah. "An honest politician is one who stays bought."

Kinda like campaign finance reform. You want to reform campaign spending - easy. You're not allowed to accept donations or spend anything. Puts you all on an even footing.

I'd probably start cheering if I heard of a politician who would physically throw a lobbyist out of his office! Hell, I'd do it myself if I were elected - they didn't put me in office!

[red91]

We need to stop exporting our newest technology overseas and keep it and it's secrets here, let them develop their own technology. Now it seems as soon as we develop something the companies can't export it fast enough.


Ala Bill Clinton...

"Hey...they can't get a rocket in the air to save their asses....Let's just give them the technology to do it..."

Whoops.


Who needs industrial espionage when we give it all away?


We sell our country down the river slowly for a few bucks....and our collective souls.