Brandishing a fire-arm

[Fergie]

This is being discussed on another forum, and I'm a bit curious as to your all thoughts on it.

Brandishing a fire-arm as deterrant in any given situation.

Personally, my belief is that you shouldnt brandish a fire-arm to dissolve a situation. That action should be an absolute last resort, with only enough time to get your target, and kill the attacker.

On the other side, folks say that by brandishing the weapon, you can dissolve the situation without violence.

I can understand their viewpoint, and can see where they think that might be a decent option, but it just isnt what I was taught.

So, what all do you figure?

Jon, limit your response to two paragraphs and 1 five syllable self-descriptor :D

[Glenn B]

You brought teh funny to the forums today! Thanks man!

And imho, don't show it unless you intend to shoot. Treat everybody as if they are armed, and the world would be a better place. :)



Jon, limit your response to two paragraphs and 1 five syllable self-descriptor :D

[GrimmJeeper]

i think brandishing ANY weapon, firearm or not, as a way to avoid violence is a terrible idea. if anything you run the risk of making the situation even more violent.

[98XJSport]

Brandishing a firearm means you are willing to escilate the violence to an often deadly level. This is often a deterrent to violence. However, if it's not a deterrent, it's an invitation to further violence.

[ECKSJAY]

You're all correct. You can't just think inside the box of 'what's legal', you have to get outside and look at civil liabilities as well. You've a greater chance of escalating a situation by brandishing than solving it with same. ;)

[98XJLimitedNateWV]

I don't think there is any need to brandish it. Just openly carrying it (as in a holster) makes people think you are a law enforcement officer of some kind, or at least think twice about starting some shit.

[BruceB83]

You brought teh funny to the forums today! Thanks man!

And imho, don't show it unless you intend to shoot. Treat everybody as if they are armed, and the world would be a better place. :)

Exactly. Both sentances are very true. I would only "brandish" my firearm if I feel my life (or my wife's) is threatened to the point where it could be ended. OR...if somebody breaks into my house...they are toast, no questions asked.

Just this past Saturday morning, my mom's best friend was attacked in her home while her husband was away playing golf. She is an above averaged size woman in terms of her "frame" size so and was able to punch the attacker in the jewels enough times while he had her hanging upsided down that he eventually quit brutally beating her and he fled the scene. She is lucky to be alive. What sucks is her pansy-ass anti-gun liberal husband made her get rid of her gun about a month ago because he wasn't "comfortable" with it in the house. Guess who just went out and bought a gun. Sucks that it takes that happening to such an innocent person to make ignorant people react.

[XJ&CHZ4ME]

I was taught that you dont pull a gun on someone unless you intend on using it and are willing to suffer the consequences..including the weapon being taken away and used on you. Weather it be a gun, knife or any weapon, once you show it you better be prepared to use it.

[ECKSJAY]

Exactly. Both sentances are very true. I would only "brandish" my firearm if I feel my life (or my wife's) is threatened to the point where it could be ended. OR...if somebody breaks into my house...they are toast, no questions asked.

Just this past Saturday morning, my mom's best friend was attacked in her home while her husband was away playing golf. She is an above averaged size woman in terms of her "frame" size so and was able to punch the attacker in the jewels enough times while he had her hanging upsided down that he eventually quit brutally beating her and he fled the scene. She is lucky to be alive. What sucks is her pansy-ass anti-gun liberal husband made her get rid of her gun about a month ago because he wasn't "comfortable" with it in the house. Guess who just went out and bought a gun. Sucks that it takes that happening to such an innocent person to make ignorant people react.

Glad to hear she's OK.

http://images.libertyoutlet.com/prod/p-twoways.jpg

[twoksl2]

same rules as with any weapon, don't show it unless you plan to use it. if you pull it and violence stops, then good, you don't have to use it. But if you pull it, then things damn well be bad enough that you have to use it.

it a last resort. not a first option.

and that dosn't mean that if you're carrying then you have a reason to act like a badass.

[HaleYes]

My thoughts are that you should only "brandish" a firearm if you plan on using it, not just as a deterent. You should be 100% commited to use it if necessary.

Hale

[5-90]

"Brandishing" (displaying a firearm with the intent to use it) should only be done if the decision to shoot has already been made, and the only thing left to decide is 'when'. Otherwise, you're probably going to get shot with your own sidearm.

"When" is usually a question left to the assailant - if he should retreat, then the answer to "when" is acceptable to be "not now." Elsewise, "when" should be sometime in the next few seconds - and you'd damn well better be prepared for that...

[jeep40driver]

all depends on the circumstances . you have to know when it is time not before not after but just at the right moment . and prepare for the concequences because most if you just brandish or say you do shoot you are going to jail till they figure everything out just my thoughts and I do have CCW here in PA they will give anyone a conceil carry permit as long as you do not have any felony. great topic

[RichP]

In Pa 'brandishing' is a crime even with a CCW, read your paperwork. You have a concealed permit which means it stays concealed till you need it. Not two weeks ago I watched a state trooper rip a yuppie biker up oneside and down the other, he had his glock in a belt holster covered on and off by a flapping T shirt, when he pulled into the wawa next to me the trooper followed him in and read him the riot act, I got an earfull. If someone sees you are carrying and the gun gets exposed they technically can call the cops and accuse you of brandishing. The more hidden the better. Besides I don't want anyone knowing I'm or any of my family are carrying, it could result in one of us being the first casualty in a bad situation. It's going to come out, get used and get put back in it's holster as fast as possible, as close to an optical illusion as I can manage.

[jeep40driver]

yeah I know how it is. must be concealed at all times in PA

[98XJSport]

Its just the opposite up here, carry as long as it is showing (unless you have a CCW permit) and your not in an illegal area (schools, for example). Its only illegal if it is used in a threatening manner.

[Ray H]

I know, everyone says theyve been told not to brandish a gun unless you intend on using it. I think Ive even been told that a time or two. But heres how I interpret that for my own purposes.- I wouldnt brandish a gun unless Im ready and able to use it. Brandishing a firearm is just another escilation. You go from verbal, to physical ecsilation, to threat of deadly force to ultimately deadly force itself.
In short, I think its fine to pull a gun on someone and not actually shot them. Just make sure that if you do pull the gun, you are ready and willing to use it.

[RichP]

I know, everyone says theyve been told not to brandish a gun unless you intend on using it. I think Ive even been told that a time or two. But heres how I interpret that for my own purposes.- I wouldnt brandish a gun unless Im ready and able to use it. Brandishing a firearm is just another escilation. You go from verbal, to physical ecsilation, to threat of deadly force to ultimately deadly force itself.
In short, I think its fine to pull a gun on someone and not actually shot them. Just make sure that if you do pull the gun, you are ready and willing to use it.

And that you have several witnesses that will swear to your self restraint of NOT shooting. Otherwise it's his/her word against yours.

[ZacSquatch]

Watching my dad and his brother pulling guns on each other a half dozen times has deturded me from ever doing it to someone else unless It was a dire emergency

[Ray H]

Rich, Im not disagreeing with you on the PA laws because I truely havent read them but are you sure that a holstered gun would legally be considered "brandishing". The reason I ask is because its nowhere near the definition of brandishing and in my experience with the gun laws of other states, brandishing specifically means what the definition says it is.
1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

EDIT: I just did a little reading. PA doesnt require a permit to carry a weapon thats not concealed (unless your in Philly). How could carrying a weapon in a holster be illegal?

[GSequoia]

Watching my dad and his brother pulling guns on each other a half dozen times has deturded me from ever doing it to someone else unless It was a dire emergency

Wait.

YOU come from a whiskey-tango family?

No way?!

[Kejtar]

Here's my take on it. If you brandish to deter that means you have the means of walking away from it because your threat is far enough away for it not to be a threat. If they are close enough, you don't pull with the intention to deter: you should pull with intention of defending yourself and stopping a threat! If you pull in that case and they do 180 then that's not brandishing, though depending on your local laws you might want to call that in and say that you were threatened and you had to take defensive measures. Why? cause if the other party or someone else calls the cops on you, you'd be the one in trouble as you're the one that pulled a gun.

[ZacSquatch]

Wait.

YOU come from a whiskey-tango family?

No way?!

Thats a negative... my dad was Marine force recon, and my uncle is a Foxtrot Charley and thinks that his army pilot skillz supercede my dads... lot of testosterone in my fam... My grandpa was a policeman and commited suicide so their all a lil XXXXed up.

deff not white trash

[Stumpalump]

I shot a guy.It sucked! He pulled out a knife so I pulled out a gun. He saw it and kept a threatning stance from a short distance. I fired two warning shots in the air and I jumped in my car to hual ass. As I was shifting into gear he was sneaking up the side of my car with the knife because the rough crowd I was in kept telling him it was only a two shot Derringer. He stabed me in the breast bone only because I cought his arm coming thru the window. Bang,misfire,Bang. I never knew it misfired till I was reloading the next day. Anyway I walked on that one and he was left with a small caliber in his arm. This is why this is bad: I pulled out a gun and if a cop would have been in the crowd I'd be dead. If a good semeritan came on the scean and not noticed the knife wound in my chest he may have shot me. Lucky for me I was the only one to pull their gun that night and I know I wasn't the only one packing. I would have drove away without firing even thou I was justified but I was in fear of another knife wound and I fired. I got lucky on that one and out grew a lifstyle that nececitated the need for firearms. Play with fire log enough and you will get burned. If you feel the need to carry a gun then rethink your lifestyle. Today my guns are toys to use for fun only. You carry one with the intent on using it in self defence and you roll the dice on the outcome. Leave them unloaded and locked up at home in a way that will give you plenty of time to think. I wish I had done that.

[Trail-Axe]

Someone here lose this:

http://www.comcast.net/news/strange/index.jsp?cat=STRANGE&fn=/2007/10/09/783796.html&cvqh=itn_braininbag

[Ray H]

Someone here lose this:

http://www.comcast.net/news/strange/index.jsp?cat=STRANGE&fn=/2007/10/09/783796.html&cvqh=itn_braininbag

So the medical examiner couldnt determine if it was a human brain?????Hmmmmm....
Maybe it was the medical examiners brain.

[Trail-Axe]

So the medical examiner couldnt determine if it was a human brain?????Hmmmmm....
Maybe it was the medical examiners brain.

Maybe, I saw that and just had to post it. I could think of a few people that it might belong to. lol

[Ray H]

Maybe, I saw that and just had to post it. I could think of a few people that it might belong to. lol

Im I one????
Just so I know, it would be hard to tell if I dont have one.

[Trail-Axe]

I think your safe bro, if your smart enough to ask, you probably have one. ;)

[Stihl029]

Heck I see people walking up and down the road with anything from shotguns to long guns to pistols as well; every day. I know that they are not brandishing... Its hunting season and the road is in the way, there are safe ways to cross and they appear to do them. I feel better knowing that a person has the weapon on them personnally. I do also believe, "An armed society is a polite society", Quote hanging on the wall in Northern Security. I do not however like to see people using weapons as intimidation tools (I have heard of this from people fishing). Fire arms are tools yes. They were not designed to scare; but to kill/wound/neutralize as the situation requires. When conducting law enforcement yes it is an intimidation while holstered but we (In my job I sometimes do LE), are trained when to use it and when not to. We are trained not to kill, but to neutralize the threat. There are other methods at our disposal but those are not what this thread is about. Here in AK I am able to keep a firearm in my vehicle at all times and on me when doing out door stuff. The laws suroudnding this are designed to protect people and personal property from animals, not so much from other people. I know this is kinda open to flamming me. These are my personal opinions not those of any departments or agencies, or to be affilliated with any department or agencies.

[sjkimmel99]

Well, I was going to blather something here but stopped in time. geeze, baited by another gun thread.

ok, three things - take a CCW class even if you don't intend to carry. Get and read "The Arizona Gun Owners Guide" by Alan Korwin, available in most bookstores or gun stores. Explains clearly what the current AZ law is around carry and use. And avoid stupid people, in particular when it comes to guns.

[98XJSport]

Today my guns are toys to use for fun only. You carry one with the intent on using it in self defence and you roll the dice on the outcome. Leave them unloaded and locked up at home in a way that will give you plenty of time to think. I wish I had done that.

Surprised this hasn't been jumped on yet...

[RichP]

Rich, Im not disagreeing with you on the PA laws because I truely havent read them but are you sure that a holstered gun would legally be considered "brandishing". The reason I ask is because its nowhere near the definition of brandishing and in my experience with the gun laws of other states, brandishing specifically means what the definition says it is.
1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

EDIT: I just did a little reading. PA doesnt require a permit to carry a weapon thats not concealed (unless your in Philly). How could carrying a weapon in a holster be illegal?

Thats very true, when I had my bike I had a scabbard that went alongside the seat to hold my long gun of the day and I would carry my gold cup on my issue LBE with a bianchi holster and hip extension, my tank bag would be stuffed with ammo, a spotting scope and staple gun and targets would be rolled up in a map tube also attached to the bike on the other side from the scabbard. I did get strange looks on the way to the range and kids would be pasted to the windows as they passed me. That in no way involved a CCW. You can also hunt here with handguns, either revolver or single shot TC's,for that you need whats called a recreation permit that takes about 5 minutes to get at the local sheriffs office and is good for two years, that allows open carry in the woods during hunting season or when fishing, bears and rabies are some issues here.

As far as philly is concerned, they lost that case, last time I looked they cannot restrict you from either philly or pitts.

[RichP]

Surprised this hasn't been jumped on yet...

First I've never hung around in the environment he describes. Several years ago I was on a service call at the data center at Ft Hood, I stopped for breakfast at restaurant on the way in from the hotel I was staying at, ate breakfast and left, then next day some wacko drove into it and killed 12 people. I applied for my permit when I got home to Pa 3 days later. I've been around violence all my life, 24+ years in the service, 4 years as a bouncer. I've seen how fast things can happen and it seems more and more nuts are falling out of the trees, I just see them as insurance, you may never need it but boy if you do you need it NOW and I could not imagine a more helpless feeling than not having one as friend or family are injured and killed and just because of some moral justification you could not do anything to stop it.
I know two women that were beaten and raped, both were rabid anti-gun up until that time, not any more, I spent hours on the range with them, one is in NJ where CCW is not allowed, other is in PA where it is.

[98XJSport]

Not so much the environment I was refering to, it was the considering guns as toys, and the leave them at home so you have time to think comments that made my roll my eyes...

[Matthew Currie]

Not so much the environment I was refering to, it was the considering guns as toys, and the leave them at home so you have time to think comments that made my roll my eyes...Perhaps, but after having read this and other threads, are you really sorry Stumpalump's decided to give himself more time to think? I mean (sorry, sometimes you just can't resist), some people need all the time they can get.

[98XJSport]

Perhaps, but after having read this and other threads, are you really sorry Stumpalump's decided to give himself more time to think? I mean (sorry, sometimes you just can't resist), some people need all the time they can get.

But that would be like having a battle of wits, but withdrawing because the other person arrived unarmed :D

[Darky]

I see no problem with considering a gun to be a toy. I consider my Jeep to be a toy. Both require high amounts of responsibility, both are capable of ending someone else's life. Take the gun to the range and have a good time with it...what's wrong with that idea.

[8Mud]

Brandishing a firearm.
Friend asked me to watch the counter in his gas station/repair shop. Two guys walk in the front door, first guy in had a small caliber auto in his hand. I put one right in his brisket the bullet went all the way through and hit his buddy right over the heart.
The short of it is, if you point a gun at me or even in my general direction, I'm going to shoot you. I'm not willing to trust my life to your intentions. You may be brandishing, we'll likely have to ask your corpse for the answer.
I'd rather have to deal with the courts than die. I got off easy actually, I told the judge if they would have had masks on I'd have given them the cash, but as they had no masks I figured they weren't planning on leaving any witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
I was there that day, on the way home from a fishing trip. Left my pistol at home, just in case I got searched at the border crossing.
I laid under a car in the parking lot, with a cop right beside me, for most of an hour. The cop refused to shoot the guy, because it was policy to call for backup and swat and he wasn't going to go against policy. I really contemplated punching him in the head and taking his 38, to put this guy down. Watched the wacko blow a kid off his bicycle from about thirty feet.
There is something too the thought, that carrying a firearm is a civic duty. I still have nightmares about that day. A feeling of total helplessness and high anxiety, wake up covered in sweat.

[Trail-Axe]

Brandishing a firearm.
Friend asked me to watch the counter in his gas station/repair shop. Two guys walk in the front door, first guy in had a small caliber auto in his hand. I put one right in his brisket the bullet went all the way through and hit his buddy right over the heart.
The short of it is, if you point a gun at me or even in my general direction, I'm going to shoot you. I'm not willing to trust my life to your intentions. You may be brandishing, we'll likely have to ask your corpse for the answer.
I'd rather have to deal with the courts than die. I got off easy actually, I told the judge if they would have had masks on I'd have given them the cash, but as they had no masks I figured they weren't planning on leaving any witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
I was there that day, on the way home from a fishing trip. Left my pistol at home, just in case I got searched at the border crossing.
I laid under a car in the parking lot, with a cop right beside me, for most of an hour. The cop refused to shoot the guy, because it was policy to call for backup and swat and he wasn't going to go against policy. I really contemplated punching him in the head and taking his 38, to put this guy down. Watched the wacko blow a kid off his bicycle from about thirty feet.
There is something too the thought, that carrying a firearm is a civic duty. I still have nightmares about that day. A feeling of total helplessness and high anxiety, wake up covered in sweat.

You my friend are a wise man. And your high level of intelligence has paid off in the preservation of your life, and two less thugs in the gene pool. Bravo Zulu!!!

[Stumpalump]

Ok heres another reason to leave your gun at home. An ex girlfreind that I had become just freinds with invited me to a party. She was invited by a dude that and thought it would be best to bring me. She didn't "like" him and didn't know his intentions so she was glad she brought me and acked like I was her boyfreind. I was really kinda unawhere of all this but the guy got beigerant with me a few times ,butted into conversations and acused me of stupid stuff like drinking his beer. He told me to leave and I shruged him off because I didn't even know who actually lived their. Then he got loud more beligerant and told me to get out of his apartment. I asked is this your apartment and he said yes so I started for the door. The door was on a small old dangerous third story balcony and he charged me with hate and violence in his voice as I was walking calmly out. I saw the drop off and I saw him charging and he ran into the barell of my gun. Had he pushed me he would have been dead, I would be in jail. Lot's of things could have gone way wrong. He could have had retrived a gun from in side. He could have yelled to his freinds( it was his party) that I had a gun making me out gunned. A cop or a do gooder with a gun could have over reackted with their own gun and shot me. Once again I got lucky. You pull a gun and you become a fair justafiable target yourself. When your gun is out or brandished it says It's ok to kill me in court. If you carry a gun you better read the book by the Massad Ayoob. "In the gravest extream" He is a police consultant,firearms expert and expert witness in cases like this. If you read the book and you know of some complimentary books then post up.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PDS&Product_Code=GREXTR

[Fergie]

Ok heres another reason to leave your gun at home. An ex girlfreind that I had become just freinds with invited me to a party. She was invited by a dude that and thought it would be best to bring me. She didn't "like" him and didn't know his intentions so she was glad she brought me and acked like I was her boyfreind. I was really kinda unawhere of all this but the guy got beigerant with me a few times ,butted into conversations and acused me of stupid stuff like drinking his beer. He told me to leave and I shruged him off because I didn't even know who actually lived their. Then he got loud more beligerant and told me to get out of his apartment. I asked is this your apartment and he said yes so I started for the door. The door was on a small old dangerous third story balcony and he charged me with hate and violence in his voice as I was walking calmly out. I saw the drop off and I saw him charging and he ran into the barell of my gun. Had he pushed me he would have been dead, I would be in jail. Lot's of things could have gone way wrong. He could have had retrived a gun from in side. He could have yelled to his freinds( it was his party) that I had a gun making me out gunned. A cop or a do gooder with a gun could have over reackted with their own gun and shot me. Once again I got lucky. You pull a gun and you become a fair justafiable target yourself. When your gun is out or brandished it says It's ok to kill me in court. If you carry a gun you better read the book by the Massad Ayoob. "In the gravest extream" He is a police consultant,firearms expert and expert witness in cases like this. If you read the book and you know of some complimentary books then post up.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PDS&Product_Code=GREXTR
Hey Phil, I think you have new friend.

[ECKSJAY]

If you carry a gun you better read the book by the Massad Ayoob. "In the gravest extream" He is a police consultant,firearms expert and expert witness in cases like this. If you read the book and you know of some complimentary books then post up.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PDS&Product_Code=GREXTR

Mas is the reason I carry. Daily. Everywhere. He speaks, we listen and do.

Your examples and points of view are best described as lack of judgement, no less. They also make me happier to know that I *do* carry and could quickly dispatch someone like you in the event you endanger the general public.

Oh, and the correct name of Mas' book is 'In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection'.

http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-8153253-3269762?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ayoob

The books in that list are highly recommended reading, especially 'Ayoob Files: the Book'.

Gila Hayes' 'Effective Defense' is a kickass primer for any skill level. It's mildly geared toward women, but works for everyone.

http://www.amazon.com/Effective-defense-Gila-May-Hayes/dp/B0006RU7Z0/ref=sr_1_3/102-8153253-3269762?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192112619&sr=8-3

[ECKSJAY]

Hey Phil, I think you have new friend.

Stimpy and I met a while back.

:jester:

[Stumpalump]

Next reason I don't carry a firarm any more. I meet a Deputy sheriff volunteer when scuba diving. He was on the search and rescue team for scuba and I needed dive buddys so we hooked up to dive. I was allwas on my best behavior around him and out grew my ruffer days so I thought I was safe with him. Especially with his law enforcement envolvement. I allways had a gun. Allways. Like my pocket gun and my Smith compact 9MM that I kept between the seats. He was in my van and we were on a on ramp going from one interstate to the next at about 55 or 60MPH. It was a high speed type ramp. Right in the middle of the ramp I came up fast on a guy doing about 10mph so I just gave him a quick beep beep so I wouldnt get rear ended. He speed up and I eased around him later with no harm done. Forgot it ever happened untill we got off the next exit and he was yelling at passenger side window in spanish. He had a freaking claw hammer. I said who is that and my freind said it was the guy on the interstate ramp and he started to dig for my gun. I was going to at least wait untill the hammer broke the glass before I even pulled it but my freind said he was going to kill him first. I held his arm down away from my gun. Here I am wresling with a almost cop for a gun while this mad man is swinging a hammer out side the car. I kept yelling " No ,no,no don't shoot him" so the guy could hear too. He understood that and ran back to his car and I was able to drive away. I got a few more but that day I really thought sombody was going to die. My fist reaction was that I was glad I had this dude with me to handle it but then I realized that even the seemingling best people can wig out on you. That gun once again really didn't make my situation any better but could have made a bad sitiatian a lot worse.

[Stumpalump]

Your examples and points of view are best described as lack of judgement, no less. They also make me happier to know that I *do* carry and could quickly dispatch someone like you in the event you endanger the general public.



I don't understand why you say I used lack of judjment? A little more background to the story maybe. The chick I was with was not a dirt bag. She was a sucesfull real estate agent for Buckhead brokers in Atlanta. I bought a house from her and I wasn't much a trouble maker at the time . The party was just a colledge football game party and I was basically minding my buisness. This guy was drinking and expected to get his hands on the chick but his plans didn't work out. He charged me and I thought he may try to push me off a three story balcony so he got the gun in his face so is lucky to be alive. You bring up a very good point thou by assuming you could dispatch someone like me very quickly. You have a false sense of security because of your gun. Pull it out and you just become fair game yourself. You read the books and you know that the instant you become a justifiable threat you became a justafiable target. I shot a guy, been shot,looked down the barrle of guns been stabbed and kept my gun in the pocket while being threatened with broken bottles. Secondly as you know God gave me a second chance at life and everday for me is gravey and a gift so if I die today I died happy. You really want to fuc with people with experiance with life and death with a gift of serenity given to them allready? Don't be fooled into some kind of empowerment because you have a gun that you have never used or ever needed.

[Kejtar]

OK, this is odd. Every single instance that you bring up why you should not carry is a reason why I think folks should consider carrying. What if the guy with a hammer swung at the window? Broke the window? Started to swing at your head??? What if the guy at the apartment got drunk and beligerent and instead of charging you pulled a gun and tried to shoot you? Look at all the violence that is ongoing now: a young sheriff's deputy gets called a name and he goes off shooting at folks?

I look at it from the following angle:
1. I'd rather have it and not use it then don't have it and regret not being able to defend myself.
2. Firearm is a tool, the weapon that you do carry resides right between your ears. Use that first.
3. Ever tried calling 911 from a cellphone? Seems that now it's a 15 minute hold (at least in LA area). I'd rather have the ability to be able to explain to the LEO's what transpired then try to leave signs behind me that their CIU could read.
4. Given a choice me or him I will choose me. I live my life according to certain rules and I know in my mind that action that I take are the right ones. If someone judges me and my actions as not being right, that's their right (wether it's a regular judgement or court judgement). What is important to me is that I will live to contemplate my actions.
5. I hope that I will never, ever have to take another man's life. That is a burden that one has to live with for the rest of their life. But that does not mean that I will give up my life so that I don't have to live with the thought of having to stop a life threatetning threat from some sort of a scumbag......

In regards to other points you have raised. Carrying a firearms is a responsibility. Having one does not make you a superhero or vigilante. It means that you can't just look at things the way you used to before you started carrying: things are always more complex then they seem on the surface (example: girl laying on sidewalk in an alley screaming rape and a guy with a gun trying to restrain her might mean a rape victim and a rapist or a thief/murderer trying to play of herself being a female and a LEO trying ot restrain her. How do you know the difference?). Also I avoid conflict now more then ever: if I'm walking down the street and there is a loud party that's spilling onto the sidewalk, I'll go onto the opposite side. Why? Because there is no sense of inviting trouble: if you walk through that party you might be fine. Or you might be assaulted by accident or on purpose. The purpose might be more sinister then it would appear so deciding to go HTH with a crowd of drunks to escape might not be the best idea under some circumstances so... being on the other side works :D

I was presented couple times with a situation where I was happy to have been "listing to port" ;) One time I had to pickup some $ that my cousin wired me to western union. Their personel was stupid enough to announce REALLY loud the amount (I shipped him a quad to Europe, so there was a nice chunk of change that I picked up, and please don't comment about WU, he was supposed to wire it directly to my account... I had a conversation about him sending the money this way already). As I walked out, I had two young gangbanger looking youths follow me out of the middle of the line. Being that I was parked behind the building (shitty parking situation), I was not too happy with the idea of them following me. I quickened my pace along the building and then turned back towards them before rounding the corner. As I looked at them and drew my jacket back while leaving the polo shirt still hanging loose they looked at me and did some quick thinking and reversed their course and went in the opposite direction.

So.... anyways, firearms are tools, I'm happy they're around, I think they would make for a lot more polite society if folks understood the repercussions of their presence and while they are great toys as well (I'm building up an O-frame now :D) their primary use is as tools.

[ECKSJAY]

I don't understand why you say I used lack of judjment? A little more background to the story maybe. The chick I was with was not a dirt bag. She was a sucesfull real estate agent for Buckhead brokers in Atlanta. I bought a house from her and I wasn't much a trouble maker at the time . The party was just a colledge football game party and I was basically minding my buisness. This guy was drinking and expected to get his hands on the chick but his plans didn't work out. He charged me and I thought he may try to push me off a three story balcony so he got the gun in his face so is lucky to be alive. You bring up a very good point thou by assuming you could dispatch someone like me very quickly. You have a false sense of security because of your gun. Pull it out and you just become fair game yourself. You read the books and you know that the instant you become a justifiable threat you became a justafiable target. I shot a guy, been shot,looked down the barrle of guns been stabbed and kept my gun in the pocket while being threatened with broken bottles. Secondly as you know God gave me a second chance at life and everday for me is gravey and a gift so if I die today I died happy. You really want to fuc with people with experiance with life and death with a gift of serenity given to them allready? Don't be fooled into some kind of empowerment because you have a gun that you have never used or ever needed.

I have no false sense of anything, friend. You don't know my background and are making assumptions yourself about me. I'm well-versed in the art of pistolcraft, among other things. The people in the links aren't just authors to me, they're instructors I know personally who happen to have written books based on their teachings. Your statement of 'I wasn't much a trouble maker at the time' still tells me of your douchebaggery. I still call lack of common sense and judgement as key elements to your shenanigans. My suggestion for what you could do with your firearm would not only be inappropriate, but it would lack flavor without proper seasonings.

[Stumpalump]

Kejtar, I see your point and I do carry when I go to buy somthing from craigslist with a lot of cash. In "my" experiance the times I have "needed" my gun I could have beat the odds with-out it. On the balcony I could have waited to exit long enough to see if the dick was following me and the dude with the claw hammer I could have driven around traffic or in the grass to flee. Instead on the balcony I waited to turn around because I knew I had a gun if needed and with hammer dude I was busy wrestling with a almost cop. Heres one more: My first wife was self employed,carried a lot of cash and was stunning looking,fake boobs and bonus point. I bought her a Charter Arms .38. We walked out of a mall off Buford higway in Atl and this girl was sitting on the curb with her face bleeding. A guy just smashed her face and was trying to make off with her car. The wife said her gun was in the trunk and I had her keys. I pulled the gun out and put it in my back pocket. Just by luck between a few rows of cars the perp saw me with the gun thru the line of cars. He freaked and I think he didn't he know how to shift a manual transmission. A few moments and the cops were on him and I left fast. This is the problem. What buisness of mine and why should I risk becoming a target over some bodyelses car? I should have helped the chick with the face issue and not gotten involved. At the time I was instrumental in capturing a violent car jacker.BFD. It could once again have not turned out so well.

[Stumpalump]

I have no false sense of anything, friend. You don't know my background and are making assumptions yourself about me. I'm well-versed in the art of pistolcraft, among other things. The people in the links aren't just authors to me, they're instructors I know personally who happen to have written books based on their teachings. Your statement of 'I wasn't much a trouble maker at the time' still tells me of your douchebaggery. I still call lack of common sense and judgement as key elements to your shenanigans. My suggestion for what you could do with your firearm would not only be inappropriate, but it would lack flavor without proper seasonings.
Ok Mr booksmart what would you have done different at the party like I asked the first time? Instead of bashing try edjucating. Ill put my street experiance up against your pistolcraft any day. I never said i did everthing right and allways followed by the reason you don't need a gun everyday. You know why I needed to carry a gun( previouse duchebagery and shenanagans) whats your reason tough guy?

[JoesXJ]

O-FRAME!!!

sorry, had too :D

[Kejtar]

O-FRAME!!!

sorry, had too :D
ROTFLMAO! :D :D :D :D best part is..... there is only probably about 2 more people here that will get it ;)

[Kejtar]

Ok Mr booksmart what would you have done different at the party like I asked the first time? Instead of bashing try edjucating. Ill put my street experiance up against your pistolcraft any day. I never said i did everthing right and allways followed by the reason you don't need a gun everyday. You know why I needed to carry a gun( previouse duchebagery and shenanagans) whats your reason tough guy?
what would have been a better course of action? Based on this
An ex girlfreind that I had become just freinds with invited me to a party. She was invited by a dude that and thought it would be best to bring me. She didn't "like" him and didn't know his intentions so she was glad she brought me and acked like I was her boyfreind.
not to attend... I mean come on. She was expecting trouble and she walked right into it.

[BruceB83]

Brandishing a firearm.
Friend asked me to watch the counter in his gas station/repair shop. Two guys walk in the front door, first guy in had a small caliber auto in his hand. I put one right in his brisket the bullet went all the way through and hit his buddy right over the heart.
The short of it is, if you point a gun at me or even in my general direction, I'm going to shoot you. I'm not willing to trust my life to your intentions. You may be brandishing, we'll likely have to ask your corpse for the answer.
I'd rather have to deal with the courts than die. I got off easy actually, I told the judge if they would have had masks on I'd have given them the cash, but as they had no masks I figured they weren't planning on leaving any witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
I was there that day, on the way home from a fishing trip. Left my pistol at home, just in case I got searched at the border crossing.
I laid under a car in the parking lot, with a cop right beside me, for most of an hour. The cop refused to shoot the guy, because it was policy to call for backup and swat and he wasn't going to go against policy. I really contemplated punching him in the head and taking his 38, to put this guy down. Watched the wacko blow a kid off his bicycle from about thirty feet.
There is something too the thought, that carrying a firearm is a civic duty. I still have nightmares about that day. A feeling of total helplessness and high anxiety, wake up covered in sweat.

Good point! I bet that made him realize you were an intelligent human and figured you didn't just shoot them for the hell of it. Probably pissed of the prosecuting team though huh.

Like I said earlier, if you see the REAL threat, shoot first because if you don't, you won't have time to ask questions later.

And Stump....man...some people just attract these situations you are talking about. BUT, most of the time, it isn't just because you are unlucky. It usually has to do with your behaviors. I know somebody who always has a story about how someone got pissed off at him and wants to "fight" him. I'm like, good lord, grow up and quit being a di$khead to people and that won't happen. It doesn't just happen for no reason at all.

[JeepFreak21]

This is the problem. What buisness of mine and why should I risk becoming a target over some bodyelses car? I should have helped the chick with the face issue and not gotten involved. At the time I was instrumental in capturing a violent car jacker.BFD. It could once again have not turned out so well.

YES! That is the problem... but what in the bloody hell does it have to do with the gun? If there was no gun, you probably would have chased after the guy with a rock.

This is what Phil means by a lack of judgement. http://www.slicky.net/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Billy

[Stumpalump]

what would have been a better course of action? Based on this
not to attend... I mean come on. She was expecting trouble and she walked right into it. She did question wether or not she was being invited to just a party or if this guy was interested in her. I don't think she felt strong either way because as soon as this guy started mouthing off she told me that she kinda wondered but had no real idea.
Attending this type of function or party is critical in the sucess of a real estate agent so they can meet new contacts. We were freinds for years and this whole situation had nothing to do with my former life. I only still carried a gun at the time for protection against past aquaintences. So for Exjay lets assume the average joe that carries stumbles into a situation where a threat is on the table. Do you wip out the rosco because you are justafied according to what you believe the courts will think? I think I could convice a jury that his charge would result in me going over a 35' drop and what I sense here is if you are justafied then you should kill him.

[Stumpalump]

YES! That is the problem... but what in the bloody hell does it have to do with the gun? If there was no gun, you probably would have chased after the guy with a rock.

This is what Phil means by a lack of judgement. http://www.slicky.net/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Billy
The gun put the fear of God in the him. I could tell he was freaked out because he never took his eyes off me even as the cops draged him out. He was shaking and most likly very high. Still non-of my buisness and not my problem but I stupidly got involved with a violent criminal over sombody elses car. Do you think getting involved was a mistake or the right thing to do? I wonder today.

[Kejtar]

Do you wip out the rosco because you are justafied according to what you believe the courts will think? I think I could convice a jury that his charge would result in me going over a 35' drop and what I sense here is if you are justafied then you should kill him.
No.... I think you're missing the point here. You don't act based on what you think the court or others will think. You act based on what you think is right in that situation. If your actions are based on what you think is right as others view it, then you're right: IMHO you should not carry a firearm. Again: if I feel like I'm in danger I will act. I will worry about courts later because it's my skin that's on the line. And.... in all honesty, you don't shoot to kill: you shoot to stop a threat. They might have the same result but they are not the same.

[8Mud]

The only real test of success is survival, with procreation being a close second.
God didn't create all men equal, Coronal Colt did. :)
But to repeat myself, wagging your wang at me likely isn't going to impress much, waving your pistol around, might get you killed just as quick as leaving it home in the drawer will.
I've got a grey beard and six kids.
Rolling over and showing my belly every time somebody growls at me, isn't my idea of a fulfilling life either.
I guess everyone has to figure the balance out for themselves.

[ECKSJAY]

lol@stumpy with the e-challenges

"RAAARRRR, I CAN HAS STRET SMRTZ! MY TIGER STYLE KUNG FU IS WIN FOR YOUR MANTIS!"

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[Stumpalump]

lol@stumpy with the e-challenges

"RAAARRRR, I CAN HAS STRET SMRTZ! MY TIGER STYLE KUNG FU IS WIN FOR YOUR MANTIS!"

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Typical libtard.You can't anser the question so go for a personal attack. Pistol master my ass! Typical liberal XXXXX


**Edited: Family site. Please keep that in mind.**

[ECKSJAY]

Typical libtard.You can't anser the question so go for a personal attack. Pistol master my ass! Typical liberal XXXXX


**Edited: Family site. Please keep that in mind.**

404 Personal Attack Not Found

Try again, this time without calling me a name that has to be edited. :laugh:

[Fergie]

404 Personal Attack Not Found


!!LOLOMGROFLBBQ!!

I almost wet me self!

[Stumpalump]

404 Personal Attack Not Found

Try again, this time without calling me a name that has to be edited. :laugh:
Libtard covered it. Still waiting on answers from the highly trained pistol master thou or does Napoleon disease get in the way of rationale?

[ECKSJAY]

Libtard covered it. Still waiting on answers from the highly trained pistol master thou or does Napoleon disease get in the way of rationale?

I gave you my answer already...and many have restated such. You're too busy seeing red on the AlGore to grasp what I'm saying.

Oh, and 'libtard' wasn't all you said. I know what your X's were. ;)

:smsoap:

"MY NAME MONGO, ALGORE ENRAGES ME!!"

[Darky]

I knew a guy who always had some story about how he had to run from the cops and that's why he's tired or had to beat some guy up, or whatever. He always had some story and it was never his fault. He spent the night hiding from the cops in Phoenix (while I lived in Tucson) because he was speeding and his friend was on parole and had drugs on him. Friend begged him to run, so he did. Idiot. I made it a point to not hang out with him outside of work.

For your realtor friend, the parties may be important for her business, but so is not being raped and murdered at said party. If she has a bad feeling (which she obviously did if she felt i would be best to have you along), she should say no, or at the least, you tell her no and let her know its a bad idea. Or maybe leave before he gets mad enough to charge you. He told you to leave a few times it sounds like and you stuck around. Tell her, "Hey, I think it'd be wise for me to get outta here. This guy wants me gone, so I'm leaving. Your choice if you are going to come with."

[Stumpalump]

For your realtor friend, the parties may be important for her business, but so is not being raped and murdered at said party. If she has a bad feeling (which she obviously did if she felt i would be best to have you along), she should say no, or at the least, you tell her no and let her know its a bad idea. Or maybe leave before he gets mad enough to charge you. He told you to leave a few times it sounds like and you stuck around. Tell her, "Hey, I think it'd be wise for me to get outta here. This guy wants me gone, so I'm leaving. Your choice if you are going to come with."
Ha ha ha. That scares me of the type of guy that would by a gun to add confidence to his game. I never have and never will let anybodys behavior,threat,or mouth influence any decition I make. I can make my own decitions on where and when I do anything.
The second I heard him say get out of my apartment I confirmed that it was actually his apartment. I shut my mouth and walked to the door. Had it not been his apartment I would have stayed till I made the decition to leave. If you don't have the balls to stand up for youself then a gun won't grow them for you.

[IntrepidXJ]

I never have and never will let anybodys behavior,threat,or mouth influence any decition I make. I can make my own decitions on where and when I do anything.

...and we see how well that has worked out for you. :twak:

[Kejtar]

Ha ha ha. That scares me of the type of guy that would by a gun to add confidence to his game. I never have and never will let anybodys behavior,threat,or mouth influence any decition I make. I can make my own decitions on where and when I do anything.
I'm sorry, but that's dumb. Smart thing is to adjust your actions to counter other people's actions. This does not mean retreat every time, but if you don't take other people's behaviour, threats, or mouth influence decisions, IMHO you're going to suffer the consequences of that one of these days :(

The second I heard him say get out of my apartment I confirmed that it was actually his apartment.
Actually, you first He told me to leave and I shruged him off because I didn't even know who actually lived their.

If you don't have the balls to stand up for youself then a gun won't grow them for you.
Umm..... there is a time and a place for everything. You seem to project the image of "I fear noone, I fear nothing, I'll do whatever I please whenever I please". If I read you wrong, I'm sorry, but that's the image you project. And that image is something I'd expect from someone much younger then yourself that hasn't experienced everything you've mentioned. Actually.... with what you have ran into, I would have expected that you'd take that into account and correct for that already in your own actions, but if I read this right, you'll run into similar situations over and over again.

[Stumpalump]

Actually Kejtar I'm on the same page as you on most of this thread but the poodles with Napoleons disease keep barking from the porch. Your quote
""I fear noone, I fear nothing, I'll do whatever I please whenever I please".
Preety much sums it up for me. I've paid my dues, do the right things with God and family and take full advantage of the American dream. I've been called a hyper perfectinest with a touch of ADD. I run my azz off and cover the world as much as I can. Keep up or get out of the way! Ain't America great to provide this freedom and opportunity. Anyway a drunk with an attitude,a pushy loudmouth or a twerp with booksmarts will waste breath trying to influence me or change my attitude. I guess it all boils down to being happy with yourself and thankfull for what you have thus giving you little tolerance for those that want to try to knock you down to their level.

[Kejtar]

Actually Kejtar I'm on the same page as you on most of this thread but the poodles with Napoleons disease keep barking from the porch. Your quote
""I fear noone, I fear nothing, I'll do whatever I please whenever I please".
Preety much sums it up for me. I've paid my dues, do the right things with God and family and take full advantage of the American dream. I've been called a hyper perfectinest with a touch of ADD. I run my azz off and cover the world as much as I can. Keep up or get out of the way! Ain't America great to provide this freedom and opportunity. Anyway a drunk with an attitude,a pushy loudmouth or a twerp with booksmarts will waste breath trying to influence me or change my attitude. I guess it all boils down to being happy with yourself and thankfull for what you have thus giving you little tolerance for those that want to try to knock you down to their level.
See, and I think that's the where the problem lies and what everyone is trying to point out. Yes, it is appropriate to be confident and take advantage of what you have worked for and earned (whether in financial way or spiritual) but the point is that doing whatever you please, whenever you please is not necessarily the smartest thing there is. Everything in life should be a balance. You balance what you think you can do against what you are going to come up against. If there is unknowns evaluate potential risks and either go ahead or evade them. You seem not to allow for the evasion....

Let me give you a scenario: you're walking down a street. It's 11pm, there aren't too many folks around except for this loud and well drunk party that seems to be spilling out from the house to the front yard and to the sidewalk. You now have a choice of going forward, turning around and going down a different street or changing sides. What would you do? I have a feeling you'd press forward (based on your answers and statements). What I'd do? I'd change sides of the street. Yes, I can take care of myself and I'm not afraid of any altercation but there are couple things: 1. should something happen, I might have to stay around and explain my actions, 2. I hate paperwork.

OK, all joking aside, there is the part where you should not go inviting troubles. The "I do what I want" is inviting trouble. Where am I going with that? Well, you said guns should be left at home. In your case, I agree... because you seem to be very skilled in the art of placing yourself in situations that are troublesome. Most folks who carry do the opposite: while they don't back down when need be, they don't seek trouble on their own... So what it boils down to: make your decision based on circumstances (you said before that noone or nothing will dictate your actions ) and you will come out ahead as those will be actions that you choose to take not reactions to someone elses actions should you press too far with a "I can do anything" attitude. A smart strategist looks at everything that's around him and takes advantage of people/situations/circumstances. He takes in everything around him and acts based on that.

[Stumpalump]

I agree

[98XJSport]

"Speak softly and carry a big stick" :lecture:

[Darky]

I don't know what religion you are, and I'm not about to try and start a religious debate, but doing right by God, if you're Christian, means laying down your life for others. Not necessarily taking a bullet for someone else, but laying aside what you want for the sake of someone else. Stand up for what's right, by all means, but pick your fights. Guy's drunk and belligerent. He told you to leave, you ignored him. That probably ticked him off. He told you to leave again and this time you asked him if it was his place. He said yes and then you left. Based on your posts on this board, you sound similar to my friend who ran from the cops because his buddy was a loser. You may have turned to leave, but who's to say you hadn't done anything along the way or previously to piss him off?

[RichP]

I don't know what religion you are, and I'm not about to try and start a religious debate, but doing right by God, if you're Christian, means laying down your life for others. Not necessarily taking a bullet for someone else, but laying aside what you want for the sake of someone else. Stand up for what's right, by all means, but pick your fights. Guy's drunk and belligerent. He told you to leave, you ignored him. That probably ticked him off. He told you to leave again and this time you asked him if it was his place. He said yes and then you left. Based on your posts on this board, you sound similar to my friend who ran from the cops because his buddy was a loser. You may have turned to leave, but who's to say you hadn't done anything along the way or previously to piss him off?

Having worked in a bar as a bouncer and bartender I can say with total certainty that when booze is involved all bets are off. You can't argue or reason with a drunk. God knows I've tried and it has never worked. One was bound and determined to get into a fight with me. I reasoned with him for 20 minutes and I was sure he was cool till I saw the stance and hand move, I dropped him with a full heineken bottle, his actually, and his buddy who also wanted a piece, that fast. Manager pulled me off the floor and put me behind the bar that nite, said I was too sudden :D Prior to that I had never hit anybody, threw them out, restrained them yes but never actually wacked anyone over the first 3 years I was there. Thats why 4 bouncers will pile on a guy, the object is not to beat them senseless, then they don't come back and you loose a cu$tomer :D Not to mention you have to watch your back from then on, it's a PIA when the one you beat up happens to be in the diner at 3am, sobered up and still has a hard on for the bouncers. Prior to that the only contact I had with them was walking by with a 40 gallon plastic garbage can full of ice for the bar, club with 5 bars and 2,000+ people a nite goes thru alot of ice. Like I said, there is no dealing with a drunk. Ones I hate the most are the ones we transported to the hospital to get checked out right after they killed a family in a car wreck and they think its funny, thats what got me out of being an EMT after 5 years, it was frowned upon to restrain one on a gurney with a cravat round the neck tied to the gurney along with ankles and wrists. When I'm at a party and it starts getting drunk out I leave, seen too many bad things happen.

[8Mud]

Having worked in a bar as a bouncer and bartender I can say with total certainty that when booze is involved all bets are off. You can't argue or reason with a drunk. God knows I've tried and it has never worked. One was bound and determined to get into a fight with me. I reasoned with him for 20 minutes and I was sure he was cool till I saw the stance and hand move, I dropped him with a full heineken bottle, his actually, and his buddy who also wanted a piece, that fast. Manager pulled me off the floor and put me behind the bar that nite, said I was too sudden :D Prior to that I had never hit anybody, threw them out, restrained them yes but never actually wacked anyone over the first 3 years I was there. Thats why 4 bouncers will pile on a guy, the object is not to beat them senseless, then they don't come back and you loose a cu$tomer :D Not to mention you have to watch your back from then on, it's a PIA when the one you beat up happens to be in the diner at 3am, sobered up and still has a hard on for the bouncers. Prior to that the only contact I had with them was walking by with a 40 gallon plastic garbage can full of ice for the bar, club with 5 bars and 2,000+ people a nite goes thru alot of ice. Like I said, there is no dealing with a drunk. Ones I hate the most are the ones we transported to the hospital to get checked out right after they killed a family in a car wreck and they think its funny, thats what got me out of being an EMT after 5 years, it was frowned upon to restrain one on a gurney with a cravat round the neck tied to the gurney along with ankles and wrists. When I'm at a party and it starts getting drunk out I leave, seen too many bad things happen.

I did the same job for a couple of years, bouncer in a biker bar on the busy nights. Four bouncers, two heavy weights, Mook and Jeff and me and the other Chuck. Mook couldn't be stopped, he could have played pro tackle, if he had wanted. Jeff was about 240, most of it in the shoulders. Then there was Chuck and Chuck, we were almost twins, couldn't tell us apart unless we were standing right next to each other. We had a talent for position, one in front and one behind. Hard to keep track of in a crowded bar. In the two years I worked there, only one of us was seriously hurt, a slow night half staff.
Jeff had a real talent, he was a likable sort, that could pretty much talk anybody into anything. Mook was so impressive that nobody with a thread of sanity would even think about trying him. People said Chuck and Chuck reminded them of a pair of Doberman Pincers.
I was always packing, I never did pull the derringer I kept behind my belt buckle, the two years I worked there. Two rounds of 4-10 number two shot.
We most always managed to deal with it, through prior planning, team work and technique. When the fit did hit the shan, we had backup plans.
Getting them out the door without anybody getting hurt, not seriously pissed off if possible, with no hard feelings and as quietly as possible required talent. Jeff was the best, he usually left everybody with a smile on there face, a real talented guy.