GAS Prices

[Gnat5680]

ok i knew i would get some sort of people in here wanting to know if it is a way to lower there MPG. but its not.

ok so i was thinking if we ever get out of iraq, what do you think the gas prices will drop down to??

my but is some where around $2.00, any more guesses?

[Rev Den]

They won't drop. Gas prices are high due to a agreement between the government, oil companies, and the environazis.

Here is the deal:

The oil companies get a few more bucks and the OK to drill in new areas.

The environazis get more people into smaller cars and out of big trucks and SUV's ( the major automakers just announced trucks and suv sales are almost half of last years)

The government gets the enviors off their backs for a little while.

The only losers in this are us. This deal was handled by Greenpeace, through one of their covert organizations.

Rev

[bjoehandley]

I don't know how it is down by Rev Den, but gas started dropping a about $.03 a gallon by me this morningparty1:

What Rev just posted makes complete sense, wonder if it's true.......

[XJ Dreamin']

They won't drop. Gas prices are high due to a agreement between the government, oil companies, and the environazis.

Here is the deal:

The oil companies get a few more bucks and the OK to drill in new areas.

The environazis get more people into smaller cars and out of big trucks and SUV's ( the major automakers just announced trucks and suv sales are almost half of last years)

The government gets the enviors off their backs for a little while.

The only losers in this are us. This deal was handled by Greenpeace, through one of their covert organizations.

Rev

Greenpeace Special Forces
http://www.facepainting.net/images/Newest/Camo_small.jpg

[Rev Den]

I don't know how it is down by Rev Den, but gas started dropping a about $.03 a gallon by me this morningparty1: .......

A few cents drop will happen, heck it may even drop 50 cents eventually....but it will never return to "normal" prices.

Rev

[Fergie]

IB5-90Replyabout"specie"and goldstandard.

[XJ Dreamin']

Gas prices aren't going anywhere but up. Raise it $0.10, drop it $0.03. Ooo...gas is coming down. Raise it $0.10 more, drop it $0.03. Ooo...gas is dropping.

Gas is going up. Get used to it.

So we get out of Iraq. What are they going to do? Low ball the price just for us? No way. Take the Saudi's. They're not spending anything on exploration. They've already got all their taps set. They could flow oil for $.50/bll. Why don't they? Why should they?

It's not just the US paying high prices for oil. Everybody else around the world wants it, too. As long as the sellers can move it for that price, that's what they're gonna do.

[Rev Den]

I almost forgot the BIG winners in this....the auto companies...HOW? you may ask...well me 2 footed friends allow me to clue you in..

People will begin to buy those "hybrid" things....you know...the cars that actually cost more to purchase then you will EVER save in gas, the cars that will harm the enviroment more than a regular gas car during its lifetime. The cars that test show you are 73% more likly to suffer severe injury in a crash as a regular car. And last but not least....the cars that cost far more then a comparable gas model....with a fair markup for the auto company.

Rev

[Rev Den]

IB5-90Replyabout"specie"and goldstandard.

X2

Rev

[Menzenski]

They won't drop.
x2. As a nation, high gas prices haven't really affected our consumption. Why would the oil companies choose to lower prices?

[Root Moose]

I almost forgot the BIG winners in this....the auto companies...HOW? you may ask...well me 2 footed friends allow me to clue you in..

People will begin to buy those "hybrid" things....you know...the cars that actually cost more to purchase then you will EVER save in gas, the cars that will harm the enviroment more than a regular gas car during its lifetime. The cars that test show you are 73% more likly to suffer severe injury in a crash as a regular car. And last but not least....the cars that cost far more then a comparable gas model....with a fair markup for the auto company.

Cool, someone else "gets it".

High gas prices are all about moving more new, shiny/bling consumer items. Nothing less, nothing more.

[BrettM]

E85 has real potential, but no doubt big oil has the political power to keep it from ever getting big.

[Zebaru]

I almost forgot the BIG winners in this....the auto companies...HOW? you may ask...well me 2 footed friends allow me to clue you in..

People will begin to buy those "hybrid" things....you know...the cars that actually cost more to purchase then you will EVER save in gas, the cars that will harm the enviroment more than a regular gas car during its lifetime. The cars that test show you are 73% more likly to suffer severe injury in a crash as a regular car. And last but not least....the cars that cost far more then a comparable gas model....with a fair markup for the auto company.

Rev

So this is a conspiracy to sell fewer vehicles with the highest profit margins (SUVs) and more vehicles with the lowest (hybrids) ?

I don't think there is a profitable hybrid out there today - I think even Toyota loses several thousand dollars on every Prius sold... Eventually the production costs will come down for sure, but right now, these things are far from a cash cow for the auto companies (though maybe they are for dealers?)... Cars like the Insight and Prius are still image vehicles like the Ford GT or Dodge Viper - of course not the same image, but an image nonetheless...

Travis

[POSXJGuy]

I hate buying gas but I have to buy gas.

I have a friend who works for Cheveron and about 3 months ago we had dinner and he was all talking about how they posted higher profits than they ever did and they are looking for new ways to invest their money overseas.

That made me pretty upset since they were all talking about how they are also absorbing costs and other random excuses why their prices were elevated.

After that meal i had a queasy feeling in my stomach and now when i talk to him I get irritated real fast. I have not had a conversation with him even on friendly terms in a while.

I think tha the way he was boasting about how when I buy gas they make a lot more money now and here I am workin for my measely paycheck every 2 weeks and half of it goes to gas.

also as a note about toyta prius drivers that i see daily on the road, they either drive it so they can use the fast lane, or they drive it so damn slow so they can eek out every mpg out of it. they are always in the way and feel they are above everyone else. its frustrating since to get the wonderful mileage out of these little craps you have to drive in a manner that really inconveniences everyone around you.

i have this rule that if i cant hear the engine then i dont want to be driving it..

As for my friend that works for Cheveron I want to shoot him.:pig::pig:

[Rev Den]

Hybrids in this area are getting several thousand OVER sticker, someone is making money on them, besides the forcefeeding of "hybids" on the public will also get the car makers a little leeway with the environazis, whom everyone seems to fear.

Rev

[BrettM]

Hybrids in this area are getting several thousand OVER sticker, someone is making money on them, besides the forcefeeding of "hybids" on the public will also get the car makers a little leeway with the environazis, whom everyone seems to fear.

Rev
but the manufacturer isn't getting any extra money from them selling over sticker...

I can easily believe that there is a lot of stuff going on between enviro groups, the government and big oil, but I have a hard time believing the auto manufacturers are in on it; they have too much invested in their SUV/truck lines and make too much profit there.

[XJ Dreamin']

I hate buying gas but I have to buy gas.

I have a friend who works for Cheveron and about 3 months ago we had dinner and he was all talking about how they posted higher profits than they ever did and they are looking for new ways to invest their money overseas.

That made me pretty upset since they were all talking about how they are also absorbing costs and other random excuses why their prices were elevated.

After that meal i had a queasy feeling in my stomach and now when i talk to him I get irritated real fast. I have not had a conversation with him even on friendly terms in a while.

I think tha the way he was boasting about how when I buy gas they make a lot more money now and here I am workin for my measely paycheck every 2 weeks and half of it goes to gas.

also as a note about toyta prius drivers that i see daily on the road, they either drive it so they can use the fast lane, or they drive it so damn slow so they can eek out every mpg out of it. they are always in the way and feel they are above everyone else. its frustrating since to get the wonderful mileage out of these little craps you have to drive in a manner that really inconveniences everyone around you.

i have this rule that if i cant hear the engine then i dont want to be driving it..

As for my friend that works for Cheveron I want to shoot him.:pig::pig:

Hah! Your friend works for Chevron: my brother works for Chevron. He started out as a petroleum engineer, on the rigs. Now days, he's in the upper levels of middle management.

His assessment: As long as customers will pay a price for the oil, that's the price it will sell for.

FYI. According to him, everybody is wild for exploration. They all want in on the price hikes. He's in Angola lately, running exploration operations there. He says China is the biggest buyer of exploration rights worldwide. Pretty soon, China will be setting the price. Imagine that, if you can.

[XJ Dreamin']

but the manufacturer isn't getting any extra money from them selling over sticker...

I can easily believe that there is a lot of stuff going on between enviro groups, the government and big oil, but I have a hard time believing the auto manufacturers are in on it; they have too much invested in their SUV/truck lines and make too much profit there.

They can take care of profit losses with job cuts. I thought the hybrid sticker was subsidized to ease it's entry into the market.

[RichP]

As for the manufacturers outlook on electrics, here's GM's demonstration of their plans...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

The oil thing is still 'Follow the money', I'll say it again, the only place you can make money, long term is to sell something EVERYONE needs and can't do without, our economy, jobs, life and recreation are based on the automobile, no way around it. If you have a billion dollars where do you invest it, stockmarket, lousy for the past few years, interest rates ? Nope, fed is holding it down and has been holding it down for years so there's no more 18% mortgage loans, no 25% T notes, no money to be made there. Oil is a good candidate, the people who don't have it don't need it, those that do have it and depend on it need it badly,
I also said that if tomorrow you had a dream that panned out and made a pill you could add to sea water and make pure gasoline your life would'nt be worth a plugged nickel and you, your family, your friends your very existence would probably vanish like you have never been, there would be too many applecarts upset of too many powerful people and govts.

[RichP]

They can take care of profit losses with job cuts. I thought the hybrid sticker was subsidized to ease it's entry into the market.
I think the prius and honda are done with that, it was only good for so many units and prius passed that number a while back. It was a decreasing number too, it started at like $5,000 and decreased to $0 over time.number sold...

[BrettM]

His assessment: As long as customers will pay a price for the oil, that's the price it will sell for.


That makes sense for a monopoly, but why doesn't one oil company undercut the other guys and steal all the business (less margin+ more volume= more profit)? that's how competition is supposed to work... so why isn't it?

[RichP]

That makes sense for a monopoly, but why doesn't one oil company undercut the other guys and steal all the business (less margin+ more volume= more profit)? that's how competition is supposed to work... so why isn't it?

Why should they, they have worked for over 10 years getting the prices up to where they want them, nobodys going to upset the apple cart... Just a note, Hess gas stations have been running ~$.25 a gallon cheaper then the big boys and the mart stations..... and one of their big refineries in the carriebean is still not fully back on line...

[jeepinandy]

That makes sense for a monopoly, but why doesn't one oil company undercut the other guys and steal all the business (less margin+ more volume= more profit)? that's how competition is supposed to work... so why isn't it?

Because they don't have to. As long as we (the consumers) are paying the price they have set why would they have to compete with other companies and drop their prices?

[XJ Dreamin']

That makes sense for a monopoly, but why doesn't one oil company undercut the other guys and steal all the business (less margin+ more volume= more profit)? that's how competition is supposed to work... so why isn't it?

Why did everybody keep buying crappy stock up and up? Economists theories only go so far. Their record at projecting market dynamics is not so good.

But, your question is what I asked earlier concerning the Saudi's. Why don't they open up? If you're sitting on 10 million widget and there are 1,000 consumers, as long as they are willing to pay why would you sell off? If there's only 10 buyers, how are you going to move widgets except to put on a clearance sale? Back in the day there weren't so many buyers, and we had a hold of the supply (re: history of Shah of Iran and Fisal of Iraq, etc., etc.), until OPEC turned on us.

The hope with Iraq is that we can force a supply at a lower price. Iraq has a large field. I got into this thread on the comment that if we get out of Iraq will the price come down. We can only force the price down if we stay in Iraq. If we leave, what influence would we have? We're only one of many buyers now. It's not so much that the suppliers are organized. It's that the buyers are at each others throats.

Soon, China will have a major share of the market, both as a consumer and as a supplier. That might work to our advantage if they take a position of competing with the traditional suppliers, but I'm not holding my breath.

I figure I got a good bit of body fat I can convert into gas. As gas prices go up I'll buy less food. All those years of over endulging might just pay off. When I get back to fighting trim, though, I'll be in trouble.

[XJ Dreamin']

Sheesh! Everybody beat me to it by being more concise. Basically, because of the demand the collection of suppliers, without any overt organizing such as OPEC, etc. are acting like a monopoly simply because of the applecart angle. Why start a price war if you don't have to? Unless we can initiate a price war by opening the supply from Iraq, we're simply stuck.

[XJ Dreamin']

I think the prius and honda are done with that, it was only good for so many units and prius passed that number a while back. It was a decreasing number too, it started at like $5,000 and decreased to $0 over time.number sold...

I thought it might be something like that. Funny thing: The Houston news ran a big story about revealing the great big ol' lie that a hybrid is more economical than a high mileage conventional car. I think they figured maybe $500 savings over some number of years. What's funny about it is, it was never intended to be more economical for the driver. It was meant to be more environmentally friendly emissions-wise, without the inconvenience of all-electric.

[RichP]

Even if the average american had the nads it would take about 2-4 weeks of not buying gas to have any effect on prices, it would work but like I said the average american does not have the nads to do it. It's going to really hurt in the end as alot of people are buying on credit cards, we have friends that are bankers, and alot of bubbles are about to burst, they are driving gas guzzlers, running up gas bills and commuting to jobs 50+ miles away one way. Heck, I spend about $80 a week on gas with the XJ, maybe $10 on the TJ for around town stuff. Consider that when I bought the 98XJ gas was $.87 a gallong and I commuted 160mi a day, thank god I'm down to 80 miles per day now.. now if the new manager is more reasonable about telecommuting than the old battle wagon that just retired I may be able to cut even more...

[woody]

I LOL at this back & forth gnashing of teeth & wringing of hands over gas prices.

I really don't give a crap.

I'll give a crap much less when I can fineigle a way to write off my (12.5k)annual commuter mileage as a biz deduction, but in the meanwhile I'll put my weekly 16 gallons of 87 octane in my hi-mileage (and long ago payed for) junk and go about my way, not giving a crap what it costs.

[XJ Dreamin']

Even if the average american had the nads it would take about 2-4 weeks of not buying gas to have any effect on prices, it would work but like I said the average american does not have the nads to do it. It's going to really hurt in the end as alot of people are buying on credit cards, we have friends that are bankers, and alot of bubbles are about to burst, they are driving gas guzzlers, running up gas bills and commuting to jobs 50+ miles away one way. Heck, I spend about $80 a week on gas with the XJ, maybe $10 on the TJ for around town stuff. Consider that when I bought the 98XJ gas was $.87 a gallong and I commuted 160mi a day, thank god I'm down to 80 miles per day now.. now if the new manager is more reasonable about telecommuting than the old battle wagon that just retired I may be able to cut even more...

My folks live 21 miles west of the US-61/I-270 exchange. Four years ago it was all hay fields, corn, horses and cows. Now they're building a $100,000+ per unit subdivision right across the street from their little 1960 ranch. From the Missouri River to Dardeene Creek, County Road N has been completely developed in less than 5 years. There ain't no jobs out there. The folks that are occupying these subdivisions, at up to $1million+ per unit, still work across the river in St. Louis County. Take that SUV and it's 10mpg, move it 20 miles out, and add on a million dollar mortgage...that's one hell of a bubble.

Hey, Lawn Cher' - What's your read on what's going to happen out there when that new-housing boom collapses?

[meatplow5150]

Don't forget that both oil and gasoline are traded on the futures markets. This can and has had an impact on gas prices. Why else do you think that prices go up well before every period of projected higher consumption (summer, holidays, etc.)? It's not just about supply and demand, but ANTICIPATED supply and demand.

[87manche]

E85 has real potential, but no doubt big oil has the political power to keep it from ever getting big.
e85 is a joke, and this is coming from someone in the middle of corn country.
All e85 does is move our energy consumption from petroleum to coal, as it's takes more BTU's to make e85 than a gallon of it holds.
Granted, we've got lots of coal, but our electricity generation is pretty much maxed out thanks to environazis not letting new plants being built.
So you move our burden from one non-renewable resource to another, if we're going to go through an infrastructure change we need to go to something renewable.
The amount of gasoline the consumer market uses is miniscule compared to the amount of diesel and fuel oil we use. A diesel electric locomotive holds thousands of gallons of diesel, you're average OTR truck drivers burns 500 gallons a trip. Find a replacemtn for diesel and heavy fuel oil and you reduce our petroleum needs by half or more. For this reason it makes the most sense to pursure a bio-diesel renewable resource. Algae is a prime candidate, as it's doesn't take a whole lot to process it into a fuel.Unfortunately that won't ever happen for 2 reasons.
Big oil will make it incredibly difficult to get off the ground grassroots with rediculos legistlation limiting it's home production and use.
The corn farmers in the state I live in and those around me are pushing e85 heavily, and they also have a powerful lobby.
Diesel engines would require no modifications to run bio-diesel, so we could use existing engines and infrastructure, the amount of e85 capable motors is miniscule compared to the amount of older vehicles that will never be capable of running it.

[BrettM]

All e85 does is move our energy consumption from petroleum to coal, as it's takes more BTU's to make e85 than a gallon of it holds.


so what you're saying is that we should make coal powered cars...

http://www.gngoat.org/gn_steam_3.jpg

[Fish'nCarz]

Unfortunately the oil companies know that with the current government nobody is going to take them to task or threaten to control oil and gas prices, so we're going to get scr*wed. I agree with everyone else who sez gas will never see $2/gallon again.

I don't want big government telling us what we should or shouldn't do, but sometimes you just need the spectre of a big, mean, SOB in the corner to cause some people to behave like gentlemen. Sorta like at strip clubs.

[muduck18]

I drive 100 miles every day for work. My car gets 25mpg at the current gas prices I am spending $12.60 a day. i drive the turnpike $5.00 a day.
thats about $88 a week that works out to be about
$381.33 a month...
$4575.99 a year...

so add that to my car payment $300
$681.33 a month...

Yeah I am looking for a closer to work... but rent any closer is $1200.00 a month + utilities that are more expensive.
and houses are twice what they cost around here...

this sucks, i have to move 45 miles away from my family, because the effin gas went up...

[seanR]

Like 'manchie said, E-85 is a joke!
It will raise the price of corn flakes and other corn type foods.
The production of it will tax both our fresh water supply and our electrical systems!

Hybred cars, like Rev said, are over priced POSs!
They cost many times more than a person will save in fuel.
They are little bitty $h!t boxes that get reduced to foil in a crash.
I would NEVER let someone I love ride in one!(Remi, how is yours doing?);)

Gas prices, Here is a REAL WORLD example of what gas costs us.
When I was 17, I was working at a construction company doing meaningless labor around the shop and office, my duties included mowing the owners yard and pulling weeds in front of the office. I made $3.00 per hour, Very good money in the day, gas hit $1.00 per gallon here that year, OH THE HUMANITY!
That was 1983.
My son has the exact same job I had twenty some years larter, He makes $9.00 per hour, good money for someone his age, gas costs $3.00 per gallon.

$3.00/hr-$1.00/gallon
$9.00/hr-$3.00/gallon

Gas has been VERY chaep for the last 20+ years!
It is catching up to the CPI.

How much was a car in 1980?
My friend baught a new 6.6T/A for $9900.00
What would a car like that cost today?
$30,000?

Get used to it, it is no more expensive now than what it was 20 years ago!

[RichP]

This is one type of plant that looks very doable on a large scale and other than a large foot print the environuts can't fault with logic yet...
http://www.solarmissiontechnologies.com/project_pilotplant.htm

I also think that electric cars will be coming along alot, it's reached that point but I figure that the feds will start making it even harder for joe average to build a car and actually get it on the street legally.

[Rev Den]

I also think that electric cars will be coming along alot.

In places it does not get cold in the Winter. Also, lest we forget...you need to produce electricity to recharge that car....good luck in areas where the envios and NIMBY's have worked to prevent additional power plants and are now faced with rolling blackouts.

Rev

[87manche]

if it weren't for those people we should have 100 nukers and not worry about electricity, and have electric cars. They make sense for the average person. I don't typically drive more than 30 miles a day.

[5-90]

I always get confused looks when I tell people that their electric cars aren't "Emissions Free" - they're "Emissions Deferred."

As mentioned, electricity still has to be made to charge the batteries - that electricity is typically made either by burning coal or burning natural gas. Some hydroelectric, but the environazis keep putting the kybosh on hydroelectric plants because they "interfere with aquatic migration patterns" or somesuch.

Windmills? "They kill birdies!"

I'm telling you, you just can't make these people happy. We should just shoot the lot of them and try again.

As far as everything going up - we've got what, something like six and a half billion people on this mud ball? That's just too many, y'ask me. We've got finite resources here, and the Third World is going to eventually take over in sheer numbers.

Housing trouble? We don't need more housing, we need less people.
Water distribution trouble? We don't need more water, we need less people
Electric generation and distribution? We don't need more power, we need less people.

Don't even get me started on the potential eugenics of the situation - if we don't get this wanton breeding under some sort of control, we're going to run out of resources. I've been saying this for a number of years - but no-one's listening...

5-90

[87manche]

well I believe that he's summed that up quite nicely. As callous as I may sound I agree, the only thing going for population control is the rampant spread of VD in the third world countries, but of course we're paying to get them meds. Here's a clue people, wear a rubber.

[RedHeep]

I'm with everybody else, just pay it. It could be worse, I hear the prices in Europe are just fantastic.

As my brother has famously quoted, start the Vader music and march some boys down downtown Saudi Arabia and take what we want.

[5-90]

well I believe that he's summed that up quite nicely. As callous as I may sound I agree, the only thing going for population control is the rampant spread of VD in the third world countries, but of course we're paying to get them meds. Here's a clue people, wear a rubber.

It kinda makes you wonder - didn't AIDS get started in Africa, where rampant breeding runs the worst? Sort of "Nature's way of cleaning house" - if we aren't going to do something about overpopulation, the world will on its own. Problem is, we won't like the solution - VD used to only be lethal if ignored, now there are strains that are just lethal.

AIDS can take a few years to take effect - I see that fact as a WARNING. How long before a new strain comes out that is 100% lethal within, say, six months? You know how virii mutate - there are something like 500 strains of influenza - and the "flu shots" they always tell us to get are a gamble. They're immunizing you against the dozen or so strains of flu that they're guessing will be popular that year...

I'm telling you - if we don't do something about population pressure, Nature will - and there won't be a God-damned thing we can do about it! It's the reason, I think, that VD had jumped from being bacterial to viral - we have NO cures for viral anything! All that can be done is supportive care (fluids, bed rest, and the like) and hope that the body's own immunities will take care of things.

Something's got to be done. I'm not sure what needs to be done yet, but something's got to give...

5-90

[johnlv6]

I'm not sure why people bother keeping track of the small fluctuations in the gas prices lately. A $.03 decrease today will turn into a $.05 increase tomorrow.

[OT]

Who gives a fu*k what the prices are, we still gotta pay 'em.
I'll just spend less on other things.
I wonder how folks in the old days felt when gas went up from .10c per gallon to .15c!
Les?
Hell, I'm, still pissed off at the price per gallon of milk!

[Gnat5680]

all this is wonderful!!! i love the conversations that we have on here.

as my brother and i have been saying for years, just thining the herd.

i see what you guys are saying about the prices and the wages.
3.00-1.00
9.00-3.00

it makes scence

[streetpirate]

Hell, I'm, still pissed off at the price per gallon of milk!

Yeah, but my xj drinks about 150 gallons more a week than i do.

[87manche]

As my brother has famously quoted, start the Vader music and march some boys down downtown Saudi Arabia and take what we want.
Well, you know how I want to be diplomatic about everything.
We should have storm troopers.

[FattyPatty]

I am converting my XJ to run off of a special kind of alcohol made from fermented yuppies and IT workers

[DrMoab]

I dunno where the prices of Gas is dropping but I just fueled my truck up tonight.

It was 3.07 for diesel. Two days ago it was 2.87.

Doesn't sound like anything is going down to me.

I think they should make it law that the price of gas exactly matches the inflation rate.

Free market can kiss my ass when it comes to things we need.

[XJ Dreamin']

5-90 has let the genie out of the bag. The problem is the 6 billion - soon to be 12 billion. We're on the steep section of the curve now, boys. Things are going to change real quick soon. We just need to take that next step and admit that there is nothing we can do. The system has become dynamically unstable. The best we can hope for is that the US weathers the storm and comes out the other side intact. We could very well end up the United States of Halliburton.

With that thought, pleasant dreams. I've got to get up early this morning.

[5-90]

5-90 has let the genie out of the bag. The problem is the 6 billion - soon to be 12 billion. We're on the steep section of the curve now, boys. Things are going to change real quick soon. We just need to take that next step and admit that there is nothing we can do. The system has become dynamically unstable. The best we can hope for is that the US weathers the storm and comes out the other side intact. We could very well end up the United States of Halliburton.

With that thought, pleasant dreams. I've got to get up early this morning.

I find it interesting that, without any serious formal education in these matters, I seem to nail things right down (according to popular opinion) quicker than people who are supposedly educated in these things do.

And, I seem to have the moral courage that so many in "power" lack - which I'd honestly like to see. Call a spade a spade. Don't hide from the problem - face up to it, spit in its eye, and give it Hell!

Of course, if you're not part of the solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem....

5-90

[Fish'nCarz]

I always get confused looks when I tell people that their electric cars aren't "Emissions Free" - they're "Emissions Deferred."

As mentioned, electricity still has to be made to charge the batteries - that electricity is typically made either by burning coal or burning natural gas. Some hydroelectric, but the environazis keep putting the kybosh on hydroelectric plants because they "interfere with aquatic migration patterns" or somesuch.

Windmills? "They kill birdies!"

I'm telling you, you just can't make these people happy. We should just shoot the lot of them and try again.

As far as everything going up - we've got what, something like six and a half billion people on this mud ball? That's just too many, y'ask me. We've got finite resources here, and the Third World is going to eventually take over in sheer numbers.

Housing trouble? We don't need more housing, we need less people.
Water distribution trouble? We don't need more water, we need less people
Electric generation and distribution? We don't need more power, we need less people.

Don't even get me started on the potential eugenics of the situation - if we don't get this wanton breeding under some sort of control, we're going to run out of resources. I've been saying this for a number of years - but no-one's listening...

5-90

As a serious conservationist (because I'm a trout fishing addict and I needs my trout) the one constant in every "state of the planet" report I've read in 30 years has been that the root problem is there are to f*@king many of us.

In a free market demand drives price, and with over 6 billion to be served demand is runnin' pretty high. So unless we can in some way convince the world to stop f*@kin', or at least to do so in a way that reduces the chances of side effects like procreation, things won't be changin' anytime soon.

I think you're right about nuke plants, we need to figure out how to build them so that they are safe and convenient. Windmills are ugly AND they kill migrating birds. Oughta be a way to use wind without those problems, but I'm not smart enough to come up with it.

IF there's a bright spot in all this, and I'm not sure there is, it's that as energy prices go up there is more incentive to explore alternatives and the market will drive the winners. But it sure pisses me off to spend $60 to fill up my Jeep!

[Fish'nCarz]

It kinda makes you wonder - didn't AIDS get started in Africa, where rampant breeding runs the worst? Sort of "Nature's way of cleaning house" - if we aren't going to do something about overpopulation, the world will on its own. Problem is, we won't like the solution - VD used to only be lethal if ignored, now there are strains that are just lethal.

AIDS can take a few years to take effect - I see that fact as a WARNING. How long before a new strain comes out that is 100% lethal within, say, six months? You know how virii mutate - there are something like 500 strains of influenza - and the "flu shots" they always tell us to get are a gamble. They're immunizing you against the dozen or so strains of flu that they're guessing will be popular that year...

I'm telling you - if we don't do something about population pressure, Nature will - and there won't be a God-damned thing we can do about it! It's the reason, I think, that VD had jumped from being bacterial to viral - we have NO cures for viral anything! All that can be done is supportive care (fluids, bed rest, and the like) and hope that the body's own immunities will take care of things.

Something's got to be done. I'm not sure what needs to be done yet, but something's got to give...

5-90

Dayum! You sound like a Gian environmentalist. "The world is one big organism and we are just parts, and as parts, we're too small to understand the whole thing." Sometimes I think that is dead on. Then it scares me and I go watch Sponge Bob with the kids.

[RedHeep]

I think you're right about nuke plants, we need to figure out how to build them so that they are safe and convenient. Windmills are ugly AND they kill migrating birds. Oughta be a way to use wind without those problems, but I'm not smart enough to come up with it.

They're already safe and convienent. France has 56 of them and they account for over 70% of their energy production. Everyone in this country relates nuclear power to Chernobyl. Chernobyl was an entirely different reactor than those used in the US or the rest of the world (imagine the russians were using something unsafe, go figure).

PBS has an excellent website on nuclear power and how it's portrayed negatively in our society:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/

And here's the enviro weenies propaganda website that says it's oh so bad for us.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/nuclear

Coal-based energy production accounts for 56% of the electricity produced in the world, yet attributes to 90% of the emissions.

[RichP]

Well, from someone who used to sleep about 20ft from a reactor for 3 months at a time for several years I understand the differences between a water reactor and a liquid metal [russian] reactor. Theres a reason that russian submariners only have a useful career life of about 8 years vs our water cooled ones which are well made and well shielded.
The water from an american Naval nuke is actually drinkable, you'll get the shits but not from radioactivity, you'll get it from bacteria that thrives in the heat.
The secret is to keep politicians and accountants away from the design and build process and build it to naval specifications instead of every one being a custom build 'one off' power plant and each one having trade offs forced by accountants, build one model, build a bunch of them and go from there. Actually I would go one step futher, make the reactor itself portable, seperate from the power generating equipment so that if a really really better model comes along the old one could be physically removed, core, primary coolant and replaced with a newer model..

On a side note, Sweden just scrammed 7 teapots in the last 24 hours when they found a weakness in some backup systems on one. Not a big deal but will require some better reduncy changes from what I've read...

[Fish'nCarz]

Well, from someone who used to sleep about 20ft from a reactor for 3 months at a time for several years I understand the differences between a water reactor and a liquid metal [russian] reactor. Theres a reason that russian submariners only have a useful career life of about 8 years vs our water cooled ones which are well made and well shielded.
The water from an american Naval nuke is actually drinkable, you'll get the shits but not from radioactivity, you'll get it from bacteria that thrives in the heat.
The secret is to keep politicians and accountants away from the design and build process and build it to naval specifications instead of every one being a custom build 'one off' power plant and each one having trade offs forced by accountants, build one model, build a bunch of them and go from there. Actually I would go one step futher, make the reactor itself portable, seperate from the power generating equipment so that if a really really better model comes along the old one could be physically removed, core, primary coolant and replaced with a newer model..

On a side note, Sweden just scrammed 7 teapots in the last 24 hours when they found a weakness in some backup systems on one. Not a big deal but will require some better reduncy changes from what I've read...

Sweden had adopted a clean-coal and nuclear energy policy in the 1970's and then backed off right after Chernobel. Then they went back at it. And they are a pretty green bunch in Scandanavia!

[Fish'nCarz]

They're already safe and convienent. France has 56 of them and they account for over 70% of their energy production. Everyone in this country relates nuclear power to Chernobyl. Chernobyl was an entirely different reactor than those used in the US or the rest of the world (imagine the russians were using something unsafe, go figure).

PBS has an excellent website on nuclear power and how it's portrayed negatively in our society:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/

And here's the enviro weenies propaganda website that says it's oh so bad for us.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/nuclear



Coal-based energy production accounts for 56% of the electricity produced in the world, yet attributes to 90% of the emissions.

Well, there's no argument that nuclear radiation is bad for you. But you are right about the antis comparing all nuclear reactors to bad, old technology. Hell, from what little I've read, cars have advanced more in the last 20 years than US nuclear reactor power generating plants.

[RichP]

Well, there's no argument that nuclear radiation is bad for you. But you are right about the antis comparing all nuclear reactors to bad, old technology. Hell, from what little I've read, cars have advanced more in the last 20 years than US nuclear reactor power generating plants.

Thats not true, naval plants have been making massive leaps and bounds in performance, safety and longetivity. The old S3W's needed to be recored about every 8 years, major undertaking on a sub, requires BIG HOLE cut in pressure hull with a correspondinly well welded plug when it's done. The newer ones are good for almost 20 years according to the specs on the new plants being used on the USS RonnieR which has only two reactors vs say enterprise with 5 if I remember correctly.
Besides, we need to build up our old fuel stocks, we used a hell of a lot of DU rounds over the past 10 years...

[5-90]

Yeah, don't forget TMI (Three Mile Island.)

Interstingly enough - I seem to recall reading a comparison on the radiation experienced at TMI - on site - vice the radiation experienced during various surgical procedures - and the lowest level during surgical procedures seemed to exceed the TMI control room by a couple orders of magnitude! Even with "oldtech," they were still well-built.

I do like the idea of making the reactor core "portable" - makes it easier to upgrade things. You can still keep them in the BURT (Big Ugly Round Thing,) but make it easier to disconnect them and make the doors bigger so you can haul them in and out, and you'll make it a lot easier to replace the core anyhow.

There's no logical reason whatever that we can't be using nuclear power right now. Of course, Greenpeace ain't logical. Don't they go to protest oil drilling in Diesel-powered boats?

5-90

[Lawn Cher']

My folks live 21 miles west of the US-61/I-270 exchange. Four years ago it was all hay fields, corn, horses and cows. Now they're building a $100,000+ per unit subdivision right across the street from their little 1960 ranch. From the Missouri River to Dardeene Creek, County Road N has been completely developed in less than 5 years. There ain't no jobs out there. The folks that are occupying these subdivisions, at up to $1million+ per unit, still work across the river in St. Louis County. Take that SUV and it's 10mpg, move it 20 miles out, and add on a million dollar mortgage...that's one hell of a bubble.

Hey, Lawn Cher' - What's your read on what's going to happen out there when that new-housing boom collapses?

Gonna be alot of contractors and homebuilders looking elsewhere for work. I I still won't be able to get to work on time (35 miles each way.) I'd love to telecommute, but as long as I get a steady paycheck I'm forced to do the increasingly expensive drive. Might have to go back to car pooling with my wife, and sell her Jeep for something economical.