Sick People!

[Eagle]

Very, very sick:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/08/22/car.dealership.ap/index.html

[Jump This]

I can handle being called lazy...but FAT? I protest!!! :D

[woody]

Rest assured that once prosecuted & incarcerated...these wannabe terrorists will get to meet Bubba and Jamal...who miss their SUVs real bad.

[Handlebars]

C’mon people, do you really think that the earth’s oil reserves will last forever? What purpose does it serve to have rich, materialistic people driving 6000 pound SUVs 10~15, 000 miles a year on paved roads? I know, it’s the American Way of Life. Unfortunately, the American Way of Life has become rooted in consumerism. We as a nation are living like there is no tomorrow, consuming the largest share of the world’s resources while at the same time having the largest consumer debt and smallest individual savings rate of any industrialized country. Our administration has chosen to invade and occupy foreign lands in the name of “protecting the American Way of Life”. Have you ever really thought about what this means? There are no WMD’s in Iraq- but there is the world’s second largest oil reserve. If we really were out to rid the world of terrrorists, why don’t we start with Saudi Arabia and the UAE? Most of the September 11th attackers came from those countries. Or better yet- why don’t we just cut off the financing that allows them to exist as anything other than a barren land run by religious ideologues that still don’t consider women as equal to men? Most of their money comes in the form of oil revenues from the USA. A true patriot will trade in that H2 with the American flag stickers plastered all over for a Saturn station wagon. This is one place where Joe Citizen can really put his money where his mouth is.

I do not think this attack by the Earth Liberation Front is sick at all. They attacked the symbol of the wastefulness of the American Way of Life. The Hummer H2- a sheep in wolf’s clothing. Designed to look like the rugged military workhorse, while removing most of it’s off-road capabilities to better coddle the fat, lazy ass of the superficial American yuppie. 20 less H2’s to go around? Who cares! They did it in such a way to avoid harm to people. Nobody was inside the dealer at the time so the firefighters didn’t have to put themselves into jeopardy performing rescues. They left their message and calling card prominently posted, avoiding the “who? and why?” questions that follow such attacks. Their attack got lots of news coverage, which has made a least a few people look to their driveways and reconsider the wisdom of driving a needlessly large and inefficient vehicle. Why is this political attack sick anyways? Way more than 20 cars are vandalized, stolen, stripped and destroyed every night in Southern California, out of simple greed. This appalled reaction is nothing more than a denial of the realization that you are a part of the problem. The Covina attack was an elegantly executed act of monkey wrenching, not a sick, random assault that would have otherwise been dismissed as life in the big city.

[Markm80521]

No offense handle bars but your profile lists you as a "lexus technician" Aren't you a part of the problem by Maintaining these overpriced SUV's? ;)

[5-90]

Monkey wrenching? Maybe. Elegantly executed? Not at first wash.

Now, who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do - I don't go around bothering Earth Firsters or Greenpeacers, so why can't they leave me alone? Vegetarians? There's a mental aberration at work there, but I don't go bothering them about it.

The principle behind monkey wrenching is to stop companies from doing something - usually aimed at massive construction or mining projects (things like dams, roadways, and the like are primary targets) - not auto dealerships.

Moreover, I still get around 20mpg from my 88XJ, so I don't care to be lumped in with the Suburban and Avalanche crowd that tops out around 12mpg - and solving that is a problem with engineering.

I do not, however, have anything against those who actually use Suburbans &c. as they were intended - the family of seven has a pretty damn decent reason to own one. The yuppie family of three does not need an Expedition at all - and that is a part of the problem. Look at it as an inefficient use of resources - why does someone driving around consistently as a party of two or three neex a seven-pax vehicle?

5-90

[XJJPR]

Alex,

These guys who did this to a Dealer, ie businessman, they did not do this to the Maufacturer. This attack was done by a bunch of low life people who don't even realize they have harmed the earth more with that fire, which included atleast two H2s, than those care would have ever of done to the earth in their life time.

You call them lazy ass American Yuppie, all I can say is atleast they have a job and are contributing to the work force. How would you like to bet the guys who did this vandalizm don't even have jobs.

And your point of American Consumerizm makes it seem to be the wrong of all wrongs. What's so wrong with it? It is what makes the world economy what it is today.

Now don't forget the biggest thing here is if it wasn't for the American way of Life we would be allowed to sit here and disagree with one another like this. Hussan would of shot one of by now if he had it his way. And if he had it his way you wouldn't be able to even drive that Saturn around.

Now if the ELF wants to make a political statement let them do it politically not with terroistic vandalism to innocent people trying to make a living. Just think that could of been your dealership you work at and now you would be out of work, then house, then food and so on. This was not a good thing no matter what they were trying to say, IT WAS WRONG and they are sick people.

mark

[Backdraft]

Well, Im not going to be as eloquent as these other guys and I dont really want to waste my time explaining to a closed minded idiot. But, Handlebars, after reading your post the only thing that came to my mind was shut the hell up. Everyone has their opinion on the US and thats perfectly fine. But do you honestly think that fighting against the wastefulness of supersized SUV is best practiced by burning them to the ground? You said they attacked the symbol of the wastefulness of the American way of life? Let me ask you this. What good does attacking a symbol do? I see people in other countries burning the American flag and it does not really bother me because the American flag is a symbol. When they start killing Americans thats when I will fight back. All Im saying is, wouldnt it be smarter to fight for what you belive in more constructivly than to go around commiting felonious acts and putting people and property in danger?

Take what I said just as what I said and flame me if you want, but jeez, stop and think about how stupid you sounded after posting that load of crap.

Mike

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Markm80521
No offense handle bars but your profile lists you as a "lexus technician" Aren't you a part of the problem by Maintaining these overpriced SUV's? ;)
Let’s look at the most overpriced Lexus SUV- the LX 470. It has standard seating for 8 persons, gets a fuel economy of 13/17 mpg and weighs 5500 lbs. It is also EPA certified as a Low Emission Vehicle.

Now let’s look at the H2. It seats 5 people standard. It weighs 6500 lbs., and with its GVWR of 8600 lbs. does not even fall under the lax CAFÉ regulations that apply to the Lexus. You won’t find the Hummer’s fuel economy listed in its brochures because of this. Car reviews put the actual mileage at 11 mpg.

The Lexus provides a real people moving capacity while offering top of the industry comfort and reliability. What does the H2 give the owner that a Saturn wagon couldn’t? Oh I know, all terrain capability! How many off-road miles do you think those 20 H2’s would have driven over their expected 100,000-mile lifetimes? Is that really enough to justify burning 9000 gallons of gas that will provide a healthy profit to the big oil companies as well as countries that fund terrorists that have committed acts of war on our soil?

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley

And your point of American Consumerizm makes it seem to be the wrong of all wrongs. What's so wrong with it? It is what makes the world economy what it is today.

Mark- I’ll start by thanking you for appreciating that the #1 thing that makes America great is the freedom to express opinions that differ from what is considered the norm, unlike other people who consider me to be a closed-minded idiot for not agreeing with them.

My point is exactly about what American consumerism has done to the world. We are living in a world in which 10% of the population consumes 90% of it’s resources. You, I and the rest of the participants of this forum enjoy a standard of living within the top 2% of the human race. Just because we can afford to own an H2 is no excuse to actually buy one. Especially when those vehicles serve no apparent purpose other than contributing an unusually large amount of profits to countries that fund terrorists who HAVE KILLED Americans on American soil. Do you realize that our administration is using those attacks as justification for repealing some of the freedoms that this country was founded upon? The way I see it, everyone who needlessly drives a gas-guzzler is making the world a little less safer and America a little less free.

Originally posted by Backdraft
All Im saying is, wouldnt it be smarter to fight for what you belive in more constructivly than to go around commiting felonious acts and putting people and property in danger?


Mike, you are so right. 9 out of 10 days my Cherokee stays parked. The rest of the time I ride my 40 mpg motorcycle. But tell me how this makes Chip and Buffy in their H2 aware of how their choice in transportation is effecting the world that we share? I limit my actions to dirty looks at traffic lights, but that only goes so far. The ELF has come up with a stronger message that has only destroyed property. It was not aimed at people and none were harmed. When you lament the loss of objects with a statement like…

I dont really want to waste my time explaining to a closed minded idiot. But, Handlebars, after reading your post the only thing that came to my mind was shut the hell up.
…I realize that you may be a tool of the same administration that is trying to curtail yours and my freedom. I don’t understand why you will defend my right to consume excessive amounts of the world’s resources, while at the same time lambasting me for exercising one of the most basic freedoms that this country was founded upon- the freedom of speech. Shame on you and your misplaced patriotism!

[Bent]

Handlebars, you get many splinters over there in the left of NaderLand?

:lecture: :bs:

Drive the 4 cyl, NOT the enviro-destroyo 4.0, Yes?

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by Handlebars
Let’s look at the most overpriced Lexus SUV- the LX 470. ...... gets a fuel economy of 13/17 mpg .

Now let’s look at the H2. ......Car reviews put the actual mileage at 11 mpg.



Shame on you and your misplaced patriotism!

Let's average that out,shall we? 13+17/2=15 MPG average vs. the H2's average of 11 MPG. A WHOPPING 4 MPG difference! Now, I'm not an idiot,and I do realize that over the lifetime of the vehicle that will add up to quite a difference,but if I were you,I would have never even brought that one up. I mean,you claim that a Lexus that gets an average of 15 MPG is so much better than the H2? And the fact that the Lexus was EPA certified and all that jazz doesn't disguise the fact that it sucks more gas than an older,simpler XJ! I'm not trying to argue your point on wastefulness,but that Lexus seems pretty wasteful to me,and you even said it was overpriced. Make up your mind:D

[96Classic]

Now I am not one to get into heated debates over such matters but, I do not like that you (handlebars) are defending such a destructive act. Yes, I understand no one was hurt but, come on. That IS a crime. I wouldn't praise it.

Justin

[XJJPR]

Alex,

I dought there is one single H2 driver selling his H2 right now because of what these ELF guys did. Or even anyone reconcidering them.

It's amazing to me that "waste", ei being able to buy things more than we really need, is seen as such a bad thing. If this concept wasn't in America, wanting more, we might still be like why we started in this country, and half the world is now, fighting over religion. Now talk about a waste of human life and efforts. That is true waste.

So if it is ok to terrorize and burn down H2s then if I come to your house and don't like your color of walls, I then can burn down your house do to my belief it was a waste of paint. Now I realize I'm being rediculious, here just trying to make a point.

The beleive the ELF has is their thing. The way the ELF goes about showing off their thing is what is wrong here and is what gets everyone taking sides. There is not one group or individual that has pervailed from acts as nasty and violent as the ELF does. They are going down the wrong road with these actions, they are going to become an enemy of society rather than doing them anything good. It will be a waste.

Don't forget how much everything we do and enjoy in this country is touched by oil. It would be a pretty boring place or a very violent place like other places in this world where they are not a fortunate as we are in AMERICA.

mark

[5-90]

Before anyone continues to bash poor fuel mileage and getting higher efficiency as amethod of saving oil reserves, I just want to toss in one more word - "Petrochemistry." Not everything we get from fossil oil is fuel.

Thank you.

5-90

[Backdraft]

Well allow me to apologize:rolleyes: I had no clue the Government has brainwashed me and I am now their tool. Maybe we should all just hold hands or hug a tree.

Mike

[F. F.]

Good discussion guys.... interesting points of views presented.

Lets keep the personal insults out of it. Discuss it on the merits of your basis for argument.....

Not taking a side here.... just keep it all level. No jabs, no blows below the belt.

Gentlemen, to your corners...... and come out typing in a civil manner... Ding Ding (bell rings)

[yellowxj]

Sorry guys but I take this more personnally. The ELF thing and people who defend or support or accept their actions. ELF actors had no way of knowing that their actions would cause no harm to people. Firefighters and policemen responded to the scene(s) of the crime could have been hurt or killed. It happens often enough in accidental fires. If my wife or kids were injured or killed through the actions of a group acting like that I WOULD HUNT THEM DOWN MYSELF AND ATTEMPT TO EXTRACT A VERY PAINFUL AND PUBLIC RETRIBUTION. (of course that might never happen because I would always wonder if I had found the person responsible).
Seems just like a man that was at my car lot (after whats his name the abortion clinic bomber Rudolph was captured) was of the opinion that Rudolph was ok since he was ONLY trying to kill people at abortion clinics. Nevermind that its illegal to be a terrorist and nevermind that in any number of ways people who were not his intended targets could be killed too. I say find the ELF folks and send them to the camp in Cuba so they can be with their kind.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley
There is not one group or individual that has pervailed from acts as nasty and violent as the ELF does. They are going down the wrong road with these actions, they are going to become an enemy of society rather than doing them anything good. It will be a waste.
Mark, thanks again for coming back with lucid arguments, unlike the name calling and unsupported slogans presented by some of the other participants in this debate.

Let's go back in time to a very important event in American history. December 16, 1773 to be exact. The Boston Tea Party. This was another bloodless act of political vandalism. In this case a symbol, a cargo of tea, was destroyed. It was destroyed to protest the imposition of taxes without earning the taxpayers a voice in the British Parliment. This event lead directly to the revolution that ended in the creation of the United States of America. You and I are here enjoying our freedom of speech thanks to just such an act.

Now since a lot of people are getting all upset and emotional and can not provide any good arguments about why we need to have 20, 000 H2s rolling off the assembly line every year I will tell a joke. What do you call 20 burning Hummer H2's?
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A really good start! :)

[Georgia Mike]

What do you call one Lexus SUV burning to the ground
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an even better start :laugh:

[Glenn B]

I am not going to call you a name, but I will state I disagree.
Boston Tea Party and all of that.... we formed a set of laws and a foundation for our country from that (in a round about way). Does not make an excuse for people that have standards that differ from others to go destroy another possessions. What is next? What is after the H2s? Where does it stop? They greens get their way, they rid us of the fuel burners.... they then go after... Our guns? "cause we shoot the cute lil fury animals and eat them?

These people can use the legal system in their battle, or they can work outside it. If they choose to be terrorists, so be it. It is their choice. However, they will lose... they may convince the lost soul or two along the way to join up.... but they WILL fail. Plain and simple. FAIL.

We have enough legislation already, but they can try to add to it. Many people tend to forget.... we used to have HUGE land Yachts roamin the streets. Far worse economy.... burned lots of fuel. Hmmm, when was that? oh....'73 or so we learned a lesson? Hmmmmmm then we learned about economy cars.

Well.... we are getting to the point that gas is extremely expensive, the consumer will speak.... and most will choose economy vehicles. Some will not. That "IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM GIVES ANYBODY ELSE THE RIGHT TO DESTROY ANOTHER AMERICANS PROPERTY"

That is life in America.
Money talks. Is it always right? no. Does it meant act out like a kid throwing a temper tantrum? No..... though they have the right to try.... and face the courts.
Just my (very tired) ramblings.... burned lots of fuel today..... was at a Mercedes Benz event.... running their cars around a course.... burning tires, and fuel.... the legal way. Had fun.... and paid my $2 a gallon for gas to get there and back.... and the additional costs for living where I live.... remote... served by Ferry Boat.... and VERY expensive. Hope they do not decide to come here and burn down my form of transportation next! Unimaginable how much fuel I consumed today. Probably powered an H2 for a year or more.... if they can keep it on the road.
Glenn

Originally posted by Handlebars
Mark, thanks again for coming back with lucid arguments, unlike the name calling and unsupported slogans presented by some of the other participants in this debate.

What do you call 20 burning Hummer H2's?
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A really good start! :)

[K9Cop]

:bs: Personally, I think you just like yanking people's chains, but hey its a free country. I do have .02 though.

I think the Boston Tea Party analogy doesn't apply. Firstly the government has nothing to do with people buying H2. And secondly, I don't think anyone got hurt by a bunch of guys getting drunk, putting on some indian clothes, and throwing some tea off the side of a boat, unlike what could have happened by those idiots setting those vehicles on fire. ELF wouldn't even let you into their organization being a Lexus tech and all, not too mention you own an XJ. I guess that was about .04. Here's a nickle. Keep the change.

[sidriptide]

i too think the H2 is a large waste of fuel and money..... however it IS putting food on the tables of countless families who are thankfull that their town was chosen for the H2 production plant.. i would not buy one even if i had the money.. neither would most people.. thats why the comparably small number of H2's on the road hardly affects the world-wide consumption of oil. protest is a good thing. strong beliefs and activism should be commended when it changes even one mans mind.. however the ELF crowd is not going to gain any support that will be beneficial to themselves.. they are a shortlived group who will eventually grow up or end up homeless... using their logic any hungry person would be justified in burning down a restaurant that does not serve food that they like.. after hours of course..
mike

[Bent]

This is not rocket science here. Being against the air poluting SUV, I'm going to burn to the ground (and into the air) a buisness that puts food on the table for how many familys? Who the F*** gives them the right? Petty name calling? Anything less than bloodshed is a waste of bandwidth. Back to the yellow bellied point: After you put all into the air you are so cowardly "protecting", The Evil SUV's are replaced by an insurance policy. The net sum of this equation IS IN FACT these "elf" ***wipes have only accomplished ADDING to the pollutants in the air.

It is CLEAR that protecting, saving,careing for the enviroment is a steamy pile of horse sh**! What is the true motive of this millitant group? Their own actions defile their words. There is nothing that could ever be said by anyone that could ever justify to a rational mind their crimes!

[K9Cop]

:guitar:

[w_howey]

How much damage to the air quality and the ozone layer did the eco-nazis do with burning the buildings and SUV's? Tires, insulation, plastics, foam all produce noxious fumes when burned.

[woody]

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion...

I suspect Handlebars might be singing a different tune if that fire had happened at his place of employment and damaged or destroyed his Lexus Technician tool kit, then found out that the shop's insurance only covers their losses, NOT his. (Think I'm BS'in? ask your boss Monday AM if your kit is covered)

5-90 makes a point about petrochemistry...look at the computer in front of ya...what's it made of? (or from)

All those wannabe terrorists did was create more pollution and more work for alot of folks who have enough to do already, from the beat cops & firemen that first responded, to the HAZMAT crews who will clean up the mess, to the lawyers who will prosecute and defend them, to the jailers who will have to deal with their whimpering carcass' after Bubba & Jamal wear them out, and to the taxpayers / business owners / shareholders / consumers who will likely foot the bill for the whole thing, one way or another.

I bet the parents will be proud of them when they find out their felonious offspring are essentially unemployable now.

[calvin]

Wow. Very interesting discussion, to say the least. I usually don't reply to political commentaries on a Jeep forum, but I feel somewhat compelled to. I'll also play nicely.

First and foremost, Mr. Handlebars, is the comment about "the firefighters didn't have to put themselves into jeopardy performing rescues". Believe it or not, firefighters actually go into buildings to put out fires, even when they're not trying to rescue people. In the summer of 2000, 2 Houston firefighters were killed while putting out a fire at a McDonald's. Firefighters and others put themselves in danger every time they respond to an alarm.

The definition of "patriot" has as many different meanings as people you ask about it. Driving a Saturn doesn't quite fit the bill. Neither does vandalizing H2's. Somehow, the idea that destroying another person's property in the name of the earth or the environment is justified alludes me. It's called rationalization: Making socially acceptable excuses for socially unacceptable behavior.

I'm a member of the NRA and have weapons at home. Am I to blame for handgun deaths? Even better, check this out: I also drive an F250 Superduty, and my wife has a Ram Air Trans AM. Should I just run out today and get an "earth killer" bumpersticker for our cars?

Finally, I really don't think I'm lazy, or a yuppie for that matter. I served in the military, paid my own way through school, got my degree, and work an average of 50 or hours a week. I work in a level one trauma center and do my very best every day to help people, and just be a good human being. But that doesn't matter, now does it? According to some people, the car they drive says it all.

Jerry's dead, get over it.

Calvin
(NOT a member of the Sierra Club, Earth First, the ACLU, or Greenpeace)

[Handlebars]

You guys are bringing up some points that I am not even arguing about.

All of the “could haves” that didn’t happen, we could waste a lot of bandwidth talking about that. It didn’t happen. Quit speculating.

I am not arguing about smog, either. Our skies are much cleaner now than they were 30 years ago, despite the marked increase in miles driven.

Petrochemicals? Unless somebody can produce evidence that there is a tremendous amount of needless waste going on there, it isn’t worth talking about.

What I am arguing about is reducing out dependence on cheap foreign oil. This is a very bad time to be building vehicles that set new standards for low fuel economy. You guys are getting all worked up about a bloodless attack that destroyed something that I think we all agree serves no useful purpose. I am worked up about an attack that did kill thousands of American citizens on American soil. Most of those attackers came from Saudi Arabia. Where do you think they got their funding, a bake sale? No, it came from American oil revenue. I hear a lot of you saying, “if I got my hands on the people responsible I will rip them apart with my bare hands!” Look, it isn’t going to happen so quit your impotent saber rattling. If you really are that serious about terrorism than all of you patriots would think nothing of making a small personal sacrifice to help our cause. Like burning less gas. Is that really asking a lot? How many of you gave blood after September 11th? That was a nice “feel good” gesture but it does nothing to combat terrorism. I’ve done my part, using my 40 mpg motorcycle to haul my ass around instead of the 17 mpg Jeep.

Glenn- You say they WILL catch those ELF perpetrators. Time will tell. Yes they did commit a crime and if caught they will go to jail. What about Osama? Where is he? How about Saddam? He’s dead, no he’s alive, no, he’s dead again. I hope the FBI does a better job than the CIA.

What if that was my shop that had burned down? I am living within my means. Everything I own (except my house) is paid for. If I loose my house I will still survive. I was unemployed and homeless for 4 months last year. I arrived in New Mexico with $300 in the bank. Now, 9 months later I have bought my first home. You people seem to have forgotten that this is the land of opportunity. I highly recommend everyone become homeless and unemployed for a while, it really opens your eyes up to what is important…like the distinction between wants and needs.

Now can somebody please, without name-calling, tell me why America needs to be consuming more fossil fuels instead of less?

(Alex, ALSO not a member of the Sierra Club, Earth First, the ACLU, or Greenpeace)

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Handlebars
Now can somebody please, without name-calling, tell me why America needs to be consuming more fossil fuels instead of less?

(Alex, ALSO not a member of the Sierra Club, Earth First, the ACLU, or Greenpeace)

Not really,

Other than it hasn't cost us enough yet to conserve. When the price of fuel gets to 5.00/ gallon you will see what political demonstrations will be about. Americans will freak out. However, I don't see it happening because the rest of the world would be as economically hurt as the U.S. would be. If Americans stop buying oil tomorrow the world economy would collaps soon after.

So if Americans stop wanting more and just did as they needed what would the world really be like? Maybe we would all be fighting over religion, oh ya half the world is already doing that stupid thing.

The Boston tea party doen't fall in this type of group. The ELF is a phantom type group and because their actions are so terrioristic they aren't willing to STAND UP and STAY PUT and suffer the concequences of their actions. Once they truely put their mouth and body where their actions are they aren't going to get any real support or simpathy from the majority of Americans. They will always be concidered criminals.

And whatever their message is won't be heard over the criminal acts!


mark

(Glad to see you say it was a crime what happen to the H2s, at first it didn't sound like you did and is what most who responded (ie name callers) could only understand, and not the political side of things)

[Scott Mac.]

Originally posted by Handlebars

What I am arguing about is reducing out dependence on cheap foreign oil. This is a very bad time to be building vehicles that set new standards for low fuel economy. You guys are getting all worked up about a bloodless attack that destroyed something that I think we all agree serves no useful purpose.

(Alex, ALSO not a member of the Sierra Club, Earth First, the ACLU, or Greenpeace)

The only current viable sort term solution to our dependence on cheap foreign oil is to drill in Alaska and numerous off shore sites within' our boundries that the Liberals don't want touched.

Not untill Americans are feed up and refuse to pay for high priced gasoline will there be serious research done to find a replacement fuel. And I'm talking prices only effected by massive resourse shortages. As long as the technology and the fuel is cheap. Americans will contiune to use them as they wish.

[xjblue]

Now I hope one of you can chime in with the correct #'s, Maybe I'll research it, but I remember seeing in the paper a few months ago a graph showing a breakdown with percentages of where and who we get our foriegn oil from, and who buys the rest, and I remember it because I was suprised at what the percentage was of the oil we get from the middle east. Wether my memory serves me correctly or not I think that how terrorists from that part of the world get funding is far more complicated than that and therefore handlebars arguement bares little weight in my mind.

Furthermore shame on this so called ELF organization. What they did was absolutely wrong and unjustified no matter how gluttonous, gas guzzling, and obsessed with worldly possesions Americans may be. The fire they started did more damage to our environment then the vehicles they destroyed would have done, thats the irony with these extreme activitst groups, they usually act in a manner that hurts the very thing they stand for. Like the animal activists that released animals from a facility to save them thereopon the animals ran out into a non native climate full of non natural predators and quickly perished. My point is There are so many constructive activities they could be doing that would actually benefit both the environment in which we live and our society as well as get thier message out. For example they could sign up for an adopt-a-highway litter control program and get some free advertising for thier political organization then actually do something that makes things better.

xjblue (member NAXJA, UFWDA, U4WDA)

[5-90]

IIRC, most of our imported oil comes from Canada (I think.) Perhaps we should just annex them and nuke the Middle East!

I brought up the point on petrochemistry to show that while a great deal of oil is not used in automotive, but there are other industries that use fossil fuels (think power generation as well, come to think of it. The Greens don't seem to like the use of "green" power - solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear come to mind...)

When it comes to the Greens, I keep remembering an incident in Germany a few years ago where a vegan lunatic fringe decided to break down a hog pen and free the meat on the hoof. In their gratitude, the hogs trampled the Greens - no human survivors. They're saving the world for who, again?

5-90

[Matthew Currie]

Lots of interesting thoughts here, but I think it comes down to something simpler, as SDRiptide and a couple of others noted.

Assume if you want that the cause is noble and good. You commit a crime to further it. Do ends justify means? If so, what ends, what means? Maybe take a lesson from the weathermen. Why not a bomb next? Oops - killed a night watchman. Sorry, but the cause was noble.

[Tucker]

The ELF has succeeded here in this forum. Their aim was not to stop the production or sale of large SUVs. It had nothing to do with striking terror in the hearts of SUV drivers or owners.

They wanted to raise conciousness. To start debates such as this one, to draw attention to the topic.

In that, they have succeeded very well right here. All of us have played into their hands quite conveniently.

I don't think the answer to their actions is to ignore them -- they've employed destructive tactics that cannot be tolerated in our society. But we can't focus on these acts, either, at the risk of perpetuating them by simply acknowledging them. The more attention they get with a particular tactic, the more they will employ it.

Tree-sitters protesting logging companies' techniques were an effective conciousness-rasing tactic quite a few years ago. When the media attention dropped off, the ELF (though it was not known by that name then) then employed tree spiking, and the media again focused on that for a while. The escalation continued with the destruction of large equipment, and continues today with arson at construction sites.

No one believed that any of this would stop logging. That wasn't the point any more than stopping the production or sale of SUVs is the point of branding and burning them in a dealer's lot.

We may or may not agree with what they've done, but we have done and are doing exactly what they wanted us to do -- talk about the topic, and try to influence others one way or the other.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley


The Boston tea party doen't fall in this type of group. The ELF is a phantom type group and because their actions are so terrioristic they aren't willing to STAND UP and STAY PUT and suffer the concequences of their actions
Actually Mark, this is exactly how the poorly equipped Revolutionary Army defeated the British military- which at the time was the strongest in the world. The American forces fought a guerilla style war, attacking the ranks of red-coated British soldiers who would stand shoulder to shoulder then disappearing back into the civilian population. You guys keep crying foul at the ELF’s tactics, but this the same type of thing that brought BIG change to the world.

Originally posted by 5-90
IIRC, most of our imported oil comes from Canada (I think.)
5-90, you are correct. Saudi Arabia is #2 behind Canada.

http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246supp.shtml

Perhaps we should just annex them and nuke the Middle East!
There is no need to annex a country that is peacefully selling their oil to us. But the American public’s willingness to take oil from the bad guys has us mired in the occupying side of a guerilla war.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0411-09.htm

Originally posted by Scott Mac.
The only current viable sort term solution to our dependence on cheap foreign oil is to drill in Alaska and numerous off shore sites within' our boundries that the Liberals don't want touched.

Actually there is an extremely viable short term solution- quit driving gas-guzzlers! This is solution every American motorist can participate in! I haven’t heard any arguments supporting why we should be driving gas guzzlers other than “we can because we are the world’s superpower”.

It doesn’t involve any sacrifice. I still have my gas guzzling XJ, it just remains parked unless I am going to use it for what it is intended. I am not suggesting that everybody trade in their Cherokees for Subarus. Being fuel-wise does not require driving an econobox. I have a 40 mpg motorcycle that I use for a daily driver that is faster and better handling than 95% of the cars on the road.

Some of the more closed-minded participants in this debate seem to think that I am some kind of tree hugger. There is much more at stake here than the environment.

This is taken from the U.S. Department of Energy’s website:

“Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security.
{snip}
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.”

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html

You people with children should be especially concerned. We will run out of cheap domestic sources of oil in their lifetime. How safe do you think their world will be when a nuclear-armed superpower that has an economy centered on cheap oil has to rely upon the rest of the world for it? Please note that the largest percentage of proven oil reserves is in the Middle East, an area that already breeds gruesomely effective terrorists. These terrorists are inflamed by a US foreign policy that revolves around keeping their oil available to us. They are also financed by an economy that gets a large percentage of its revenue from oil sales to the United States. I see an endless cycle here that centers on the average American citizen’s unwillingness to make a small sacrifice to help the nation’s security.

What alarms me the most is the frequent statements to the effect, "why don't we just nuke 'em!" Do you really want to open Pandora's Box? There are a lot of nukes in the hands of other countries, some of which are not friendly. If we start using them it will remove that fear of US nuclear attack from every country that has access to them, not just the primary targets. I see a lot more at stake than one business that was destroyed, or a town that profits from producing H2's, or the environmental damage done by burning those Hummers. But then, I have been accused of being closed minded. Who wants to enlighten me some more?

[K9Cop]

Originally posted by Handlebars
[B]Actually Mark, this is exactly how the poorly equipped Revolutionary Army defeated the British military- which at the time was the strongest in the world. The American forces fought a guerilla style war, attacking the ranks of red-coated British soldiers who would stand shoulder to shoulder then disappearing back into the civilian population. You guys keep crying foul at the ELF’s tactics, but this the same type of thing that brought BIG change to the world.

You've got to be kidding me, lmao. Where do you come up with this stuff? First comparing the ELF arson to the Boston Tea Party and now comparing it to the whole Revolutionary War? Are you serious? Don't use the great history of our nation for your twisted little points of view. They are not the same thing and you know it.


You know what? I don't like people that drive Lexus vehicles, because that car simulates the rich, money hungry liberals that are pushing this country into the crapper, so I'm going to go burn down a luxus factory. Am I justified? Of course not. Yeah, we do need to use less gas, but trying to force your opinion on someone 9 times out of 10 it has the opposite effect. People are going to do what they want to do.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with this German one time in a German pub. Are you German? I'm done with this thread. I can't believe I have wasted 5 minutes of my life debating this with someone like yourself.

[5-90]

My comment about annexing Cnada was in jest, but I am of mixed feelings about the Middle East. Perhaps it is because people over there are progressively more confused about current affairs, but I'd defer to someone who's been over there more revently than myself (perhaps Dino may sound off on this for us...)

5-90

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by K9Cop
Yeah, we do need to use less gas, but trying to force your opinion on someone 9 times out of 10 it has the opposite effect. People are going to do what they want to do.
Yes! A grudging agreement! :)

BTW, I am not forcing my opinion upon you, I am presenting the world as I see it to you, along with the facts that support my view. I am still waiting for somebody to reply in kind with facts to prove my view wrong because frankly, I am terrified of what the future, as it now stands, holds for us and the world. I would really, really like to find out that I am wrong.

I am also not the the kind of person who points out problems and leaves it up to others to find a solution. I have come up with an economically viable way for everybody who reads this to help out with this situation.


I have 2 questions for you, K9Cop:

1) What are you doing to save gas?
2) Do you love your children?

[Backdraft]

The love I have for my children is NOT judged by how i conserve fossil fuels.

Mike

[Matthew Currie]

"Actually Mark, this is exactly how the poorly equipped Revolutionary Army defeated the British military- which at the time was the strongest in the world. ...etc"

Guerillas or not, those people were fighting what they saw as a tyrannical government, not an alarming trend or a bad habit among their peers. Part of the issue at that time was the extent to which all trade in the colonies was government controlled, and it's significant that they raided a British ship and dumped the tea in the harbor. They did not go down to their neighborhood tea merchant and sack his warehouse! And although the participants of the Tea Party may have been anonymous, as a group, the American revolutionaries demonstrated their willingness to be identified, and to die for their principles.

I see a difference there. That the ELF people do not is part of what I find scary.

[Led]

I love the way peaple are always so quick to ban something that has no effect on them(say an H2) but then will cry like a baby when step 2 comes(say any car that doesn't get 25 mpg). Remember every time we pass a new law or come up with a new regulation we are signing away another chunk of our fredom. There was a time in this country not so long ago we didn't need to have state ID,no drinking age,and you could buy a tommy gun at the local hardware store. Have all the new laws set in place made this a better country???? thats a whole other debate.
Led

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Handlebars
Actually Mark, this is exactly how the poorly equipped Revolutionary Army defeated the British military- which at the time was the strongest in the world. The American forces fought a guerilla style war, attacking the ranks of red-coated British soldiers who would stand shoulder to shoulder then disappearing back into the civilian population. You guys keep crying foul at the ELF’s tactics, but this the same type of thing that brought BIG change to the world.

The ELF's tactics are FAR from those of the who defeated the British.

The ELF says it's there to help the envoirment, but your argument seems to be they are against burning to much gas, ie waste. A lot of the slogans on the H2s were related towards polution. Yes, buring gas makes polution however, we all know now they did create more polution with their so called demonstration. So how can we look at this so called demonstration as a way to get the word out that big trucks polute the earth. All it has shown is there are a bunch of kids, new video just released, burning a family owned business to the ground.

This act of terror vandalism is only going to make it more expensive for business to operate. Yes it will even affect you, because insurance rates are going thru the roof already in this industry this will create even higher ones. For an example, my insurance this year has gone up 5 times what it was last year. And where do you think I'm going to make that difference up? It will have little to NO affect on how a H2 driver is going to use that truck.

I don't think the effect of how much oil we use or save will ever be answered. I'm not so sure it is a bad thing to have a resorce that drives the world economy as oil does today.

No matter what side you may simpithize with, the final thing is the ELF, if they really want to help the Earth, they need to find better ways to demonstate to show their veiws than the ones they used at the H2 dealer. Because all I see from this is a out of controlled group of thugs, not an Enviormental Group tring to save the earth. I trully beleive this has done more harm to the ELFs reputation and cause than good. It's not like they just saved 50 Dolphins from dying, ie. something good.

mark

[Scott Mac.]

Originally posted by Handlebars


Actually there is an extremely viable short term solution- quit driving gas-guzzlers! This is solution every American motorist can participate in! I haven’t heard any arguments supporting why we should be driving gas guzzlers other than “we can because we are the world’s superpower”.

It doesn’t involve any sacrifice. I still have my gas guzzling XJ, it just remains parked unless I am going to use it for what it is intended. I am not suggesting that everybody trade in their Cherokees for Subarus. Being fuel-wise does not require driving an econobox. I have a 40 mpg motorcycle that I use for a daily driver that is faster and better handling than 95% of the cars on the road.

Some of the more closed-minded participants in this debate seem to think that I am some kind of tree hugger. There is much more at stake here than the environment.

This is taken from the U.S. Department of Energy’s website:

“Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security.
{snip}
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.”

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html

You people with children should be especially concerned. We will run out of cheap domestic sources of oil in their lifetime. How safe do you think their world will be when a nuclear-armed superpower that has an economy centered on cheap oil has to rely upon the rest of the world for it? Please note that the largest percentage of proven oil reserves is in the Middle East, an area that already breeds gruesomely effective terrorists. These terrorists are inflamed by a US foreign policy that revolves around keeping their oil available to us. They are also financed by an economy that gets a large percentage of its revenue from oil sales to the United States. I see an endless cycle here that centers on the average American citizen’s unwillingness to make a small sacrifice to help the nation’s security.



My point is that the majority of Americans are completly content with running our oils supplies dry before we need to find a viable alternative fuel. Yes there is research being done right now. But the urgency isn't there and will not be there till the last drop oil is pumped from the earth

And right now, the only way to reduce our dependance on Middle East oil is to drill the untapped fields within' our own boundries.

[TLange]

"C’mon people, do you really think that the earth’s oil reserves will last forever? What purpose does it serve to have rich, materialistic people driving 6000 pound SUVs 10~15, 000 miles a year on paved roads? I know, it’s the American Way of Life. Unfortunately, the American Way of Life has become rooted in consumerism. We as a nation are living like there is no tomorrow, consuming the largest share of the world’s resources while at the same time having the largest consumer debt and smallest individual savings rate of any industrialized country."

I fully agree with this part of what you wrote. It's right after that things get out of hand.

1) A true patriot believes in our laws and would not support a criminal act such as what ELF did. They broke the law and will be punished accourding to our Justice System if caught and convicted.

2) A true patriot understands that America is about free enterprise. The cost of gas will raise as it becomes less available. That's when you will see more afternative fueled vehicles on the road and fewer vehicles like the H2. Yes I love my children and look forward to time when they can drive a fuel cell powered (or some other technology) vehicle.

3) A true patriot knows that America is about free speech. He/she should thank god that he/she can even have an opinion such as yours and live.

[Scott Mac.]

Nobody believes they will last forever. The problem is that there's only a small percentage that actually care. And those who don't care have faith that there will be a viable alternative when the oil does run dry.

[Kejtar]

I skimmed through this whole thread and I have couple points to make myself (and I might repeat some things that were said).....

1. Being green concious doesn't mean that I have to drive a golf cart.... There is more to environment protection then gasoline usage. It includes recycling, polluting, not dropping cigarette butts on the ground and so on.... I know couple greenies that are almsot extremists in their beliefs and I can tell you that they don't all recycle, they tend to use up an extensive amount of non bio degreadable products and so on.... IMHO if one is making such statements as that group does, they should lead by example!

2. The amount of environmental damage that they have caused with their display is horrendous! The spilled/bourned gasoline, oils, plastics fumes, paint fumes and so on.... Also half of that stuff will probably make it to the ocean as it hit the storm drains!!! so they did a lot of harm and in my opinion (I'm kind of green in certain respects myself, as I think all of us should be)

3. Such actions should be labeled as vandalism and terrorism and any inteded messages that they are meant to carry should be ignored as otherwise doing so would encourage them to do more due to attention received!

4. Greenies should work with others..... There was a series of articles published a while back about impact of the off road traffic onto the environment. I have contacted the author of such article (I used a different email address then normal in case I get slammed with greenie spam) and I tried to open dialagoue which would be beneficial for both sides (kind of you educated us we will educatue you and we can work towards doing some good). I was pretty much told that their research is 100% guaranteed to be right (it talked about how the dust raised from driving on the dirt road negatively impacts the environment) and they are not interested in hearing any other opinions.... That's wrong!! This comes down in my opinion to the point that there is a war/conflict that lasts for ever as people are in it for the sake of the fighting and nothing else!!!

Kejtar

[Backdraft]

werd!!



Mike

[BrianJr]

ELF is, pure and simple, an international environmental preservation group that believes violence is a reasonable tool to raise public awareness and to protect the environment. Even if this nation switched to a completely oil-free economy tomorrow they would still be performing acts of violence to protest genetic engineering, habitat destruction, etc. Any attempt to portray ELF as a organization whose goals are to patriotically reduce US dependence on foreign oil is simply incorrect.

To compare these 'demonstrations' to the Boston Tea Party is ridiculous. The colonists had no legal way to protest their government's actions. That was the whole point. The colonists were destroying property because there was no legal way for them to challenge the government's policies regarding that property (in that case taxes). That simply is not true today. Each citizen has a tremendous amount of freedom to shape the policies of the government. In fact, environmentalists have exercised considerable influence on all of western civilization - without resorting to violence.

The argument that no one was hurt, that only property was damaged, is a poor attempt to justify acts that are not justifiable. When you destroy a business's property your are jeopardizing the livelihoods of the people that work there. Maybe Handlebars doesn't mind being homeless but most people do. I certainly would not want to loose my job unexpectedly and turn my family's lives on end so some environmental group could make a political statement. Shame on ELF for placing their own political goals above the livelihood of their fellow citizens.

Too further lower my opinion of ELF - their style of 'protest' is completely ineffective. They want fewer H2's to be sold - so they destroy a bunch of them. They just insured that (a) new H2's are manufactured to replace those lost and (b) bought more TV ad time then the manufacturer could have ever afforded. The people buying H2's already know these vehicles are terrible for the economy - that's they whole point! People buy these H2's to say "Look, I'm so successful/rich that I can afford this completely impractical vehicle that requires its own refueling station". If anything this will simply insure that the few wealthy people who have never seen an H2 now get a chance to learn about these gas guzzlers - congratulations on a job well done.

These terrorist actions also run a risk of turning popular opinion away from the cause ELF is trying to support. The American public is not going to rally behind a cause that resorts to terrorism. The environmental movement has made great strides in the last thirty years. The last thing environmentalists need is to have people looking at them as potential terrorists.

Do I think that it is imperative to reduce our economy's reliance on petroleum - absolutely. However, I can not imagine a worse way to do so then violent 'protest'. IMHO anyone supporting ELF's terrorist actions, even for patriotic reasons, is saying that they support the use of violence instead of peaceful, lawful, protest. IMHO ELF is a blight on the nation and the environmentalist cause.

[yellowxj]

I think we should start our own elf ohv fringe group. All the broken down hybrids blocking the trails at tellico could go. Poof. Import suv's could go too. Poof. Imagine the fuel cost savings if those transport ships didnt have to cross the oceans. We'll have to get our own ex-chicom diesel sub to sink those..Poof. We would have to work on getting our hipocracy(sp) straight. I think unimogs look neat so we shouldnt burn them. But if we got rid of all the rest it would be a fuel savings bonanza.

Next after thats cleaned up we could vote on there being too many people in the world. People must be one of the main causes of evironmental problems. We should whack a bunch of them too. Lets clean this joint out a little bit. Less people on the road would mean less traffic and less fuel usage. Damn I'm good. I could almost save the world. OH MAN !!!! I cant sneak out tonight to save the world some more. I used up my lighter smoking my hemp shirt cause I didnt work this year to protest the man bringing me down and now I cant afford my P@T. Ohhhh nnnnoooooooo..................

[JeeperJeff]

To prove one's dediction to "the cause" perhaps working on some alternate fuel vehicles would be the ticket rather than working on over priced Lexus SUVs. Personally, I think the H2 is big, ugly and just plain stupid. But, if we outlawed them for being "un-green" I am relatively certain the over-priced, ever so high class Lexus would certainly follow is short order.

ELF burned down a building full of H2s to prove a point. Islamic fanatics also flew airliners into the WTC and the Pentagon to prove their point. The difference is merely a matter of degree. Where does it end? What ELF did was a violent act. Period.

It is indeed fortunate no one was injured or killed this time. But you keep burning down buildings, and some poor working person is going to get killed.

That, no matter what the justification, is murder.

[K9Cop]

Another little snippet came out today about it.....
Updated Story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030825/ap_on_re_us/car_dealership_fire_1)

[xjblue]

Handlebars brings up some interesting points, there already is a viable alternative solution however. I would be perfectly happy if everybody rode bicycles of some fashion as long as I could take the XJ or Mustang out for a spin on the weekend! furthermore I would love to save a bunch of gas money myself by commuting in an economical vehicle or motorcycle but my present financial situation is delaying such a purchase, I'm just glad the XJ is finally paid off right now. anyway the bicycle in it's present form with lots of gears is the most effecient mechanical device ever created or so I heard it described once. We have the technology already, as was mentioned it would just take a little more motivation (on account of oil being so cheap) to push that technology into the market and to hasten the development of that technology. They say that the market is 10 years behind the technology, take flat panel TV's for example, my friend saw those in Japanese Peoples homes 13 years ago yet they have only been on our market for a few years and still cost an arm and a leg.

Anyway back to the subject at hand, handlebars makes it sound like a war. It isn't a war, the dealership is not an enemy. It's true our dependancy on the internal combustion engine drives our very way of life, perpetuated by the relatively low cost of fuel over the last century. It's true that this dependancy fuels certain political fires burning in the middle east and it will perpetuate terrorism and hatred for us among a few jerks with no true moral values, It's true that some day we will have to adapt to a lack of oil. I don't think it will be a doomsday, the price will go up, the transportation market will adapt other technologies or make cheaper alternatives available, or everyone will ride bikes, no worries. I don't have kids but I'm not worried for the next generation as far as this topic is concerned (except the part about lunatics who burn buisnesses to make a point), I am much more concerned about various internal social evils when it comes to the world my future posterity may have to endure.

I see no real difference between the jerks who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 and the jerks who burnt up a car dealership. Both parties acted inappropriately and unexcusably and just plain wrong regardless of thier political agenda, world view, personal beliefs, and regardless of whatever justification both real or imagined. two negatives might make a positive in math class but a wrong will never make a right or fix a previous wrong, no matter what!

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by JeeperJeff
To prove one's dediction to "the cause" perhaps working on some alternate fuel vehicles would be the ticket rather than working on over priced Lexus SUVs
There is a gas/electric hybrid Lexus RX coming soon to a dealer near you! If you have been paying attention, you would also have read how I am already doing my part to conserve fuel.

Let me see if I can get us all on the same page here. I don’t know whether be proud or scared of all of your cries of environmental degradation. You night brand me a greenie if I complimented you on your environmental sensitivity. While pollution is part of the ELF’s agenda, it is not my main concern.

What concerns me is our nation’s increasing reliance on oil imports to supply our needs. I think we all agree that our economy revolves around the availability of cheap, plentiful oil. The United States has 2% of the world’s oil reserves. Once that is gone we will either be at the mercy of the oil supplying countries or will have to take foreign oil by force. I’m pretty sure that the American public realizes the need to conserve oil. Unfortunately, Americans are extremely apathetic when it comes to taking action. It is a point I have brought up in every post, so far everybody has dodged it, instead choosing to pick apart my motives.

Is there any good reason to have 20, 000 Hummer H2s that get 11 mpg rolling off the assembly line each year? Gas will run out that much sooner. I will repeat the following from an earlier post because nobody has had any comment about it. Perhaps you missed it?

Originally posted by Handlebars
This is taken from the U.S. Department of Energy’s website:

“Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security.
{snip}
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.”

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html

You people with children should be especially concerned. We will run out of cheap domestic sources of oil in their lifetime. How safe do you think their world will be when a nuclear-armed superpower that has an economy centered on cheap oil has to rely upon the rest of the world for it? Please note that the largest percentage of proven oil reserves is in the Middle East, an area that already breeds gruesomely effective terrorists. These terrorists are inflamed by a US foreign policy that revolves around keeping their oil available to us. They are also financed by an economy that gets a large percentage of its revenue from oil sales to the United States. I see an endless cycle here that centers on the average American citizen’s unwillingness to make a small sacrifice to help the nation’s security.
Once again, would be happy to have my interpretation proven wrong.

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by Handlebars
<SNIP> I am already doing my part to conserve fuel.


Who is authorized to judge H2 owners of not doing their part to conserve fuel (no A/C usage at home or on in the H2, car pooling, recycling, water conservation, tree plantings, victory gardening, petrochemical experiments in the kitchen, riding a Honda trail 90 commuter during the week and driving the H2 on the odd Saturday wildland's excursion, etc.)?

Does the ELF have the right to judge all H2 owners (do you)?


Originally posted by Handlebars
Let me see if I can get us all on the same page here. I don’t know whether be proud or scared of all of your cries of environmental degradation. You night brand me a greenie if I complimented you on your environmental sensitivity. While pollution is part of the ELF’s agenda, it is not my main concern.


This is where much of the dialog is not on the same page, it appears the illegal and potentially life threatening actions of the ELF are of no concern to you. Is this true; you care nothing for the risk of lives, livelhood, and economic stability for those impacted by the result of the ELF actions?

Begin with your yes or no answer to a simple question, "were the terrorist ELF actions justified and legitimate?"


Originally posted by Handlebars
What concerns me is our nation’s increasing reliance on oil imports to supply our needs. I think we all agree that our economy revolves around the availability of cheap, plentiful oil. The United States has 2% of the world’s oil reserves. Once that is gone we will either be at the mercy of the oil supplying countries or will have to take foreign oil by force. I’m pretty sure that the American public realizes the need to conserve oil. Unfortunately, Americans are extremely apathetic when it comes to taking action. It is a point I have brought up in every post, so far everybody has dodged it, instead choosing to pick apart my motives.

Is there any good reason to have 20, 000 Hummer H2s that get 11 mpg rolling off the assembly line each year? Gas will run out that much sooner. I will repeat the following from an earlier post because nobody has had any comment about it. Perhaps you missed it?


Once again, would be happy to have my interpretation proven wrong.


If you began the discourse with condemning the actions and tactics of the ELF, before presenting your point regarding fears resulting from the USA dependence on oil, you may have received a more focused discussion.

What is your fear regarding petroleum dependence (terrorist actions, another price hike by a cartel, flat running out and the impact on the economy, what)? We are reliant on petroleum oil because it has the least cost and ecological impact given today's technology. Maybe you can offer a better solution (or maybe the ELF can offer something better)?

Nuclear power generation and electric distribution is environmentally cleaner, but considering the cost of safeguards, disposal, and insurance it is not cost effective. There is also the problem of power transmission & distribution (no blackouts allowed) and the threat of terrorists (domestic like the ELF, and those abroad) attacking the distribution.

Electric and Hybred powertrain technology is a more efficient means of transport, but environmentally sound battery recycling and disposal is not yet developed to serve the State of California in a cost effective manner (even the sixth largest GNP in the world cannot overcome this environmental problem). Transmission is also a problem (that blackout problem ;) , with 50 million commuter cars plugged in at night).

LNG is another cleaner technology (CO2 & H2O exhaust), and non-point source friendly, as opposed to a centralized generation and transmission solution (like a high profile terrorist target: a power plant or critical transmission tower or grid intersection). I forget, LNG is petroleum.

LH2, hydrogen, is a great mobile fuel (H2O vapor exhaust with minimal lubricant oil hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides), but it takes electricity to extract and generate (even by chemical means, not by pure electrolysis). We are back relying on high profile, difficult to defend, terror targets for generation and transmission.

The 2% figure, of the world oil reserves contained in the USA, is a debatable number. It is also of zero consequence, politically, when viewed on a global scale if we conserve it (by exploiting other's oil reserves).

The north slope of Alaska was once estimated to include 6% of the worlds known oil reserves, maybe more, as the developed reserves have proven to be more productive than the estimates (it is just that the previously unknown reserves found in the rest of the world have proven even greater potential). The oil capable of being extracted from the coal reserves in Utah are estimated to be large enough to provide a century or more of today's USA petrochemical consumption. We can get more oil, it's just the process will cost more and is less efficient in economical and ecological terms (the investment cost and total environment rehabilitation required will be more comprehensive).

Does it matter, in global or local politics, that our oil will not run out in the next twenty years, or forty years? Probably not. Does it matter than the USA consumes the most oil? Probably not. What does matter is supply and demand, and that the country that exploits the least expensive supply will have an economic advantage in global trade. As long as we exploit the low cost of foreign oil we will remain at an advantage in global trade. Why do I believe this? Look at the long term possibilities?

The eventual result of the USA exploiting non-domestic oil (or depleting our own oil)? The oil runs out. Who suffers the most, the country with depleted reserves or the country that retained a domestic reserve? What country would you prefer to live in when the eventual crisis occurs (simply for the petrochemical drugs, if anything else)? Should we accelerate the decline of the USA, by avoiding cheap foreign oil, to resolve another countries terrorist problems (or a domestic terror problem)?

When the middle eastern oil reserves run out, who is going to dominate world trade (the sailing powerhouse of New Zealand)?

I am a proponent of conservation, but I harbor no fear of low cost petroleum usage exploitation (domestic or worldwide). There are no viable alternative solutions motivating me to revise my environmental concerns, or lowered threat considerations to restructure oil away from my favored power source list. I agree in conservation and fuel efficiency, but they only delay the eventual conclusion of depleated reserves: ours or theirs (so what is your choice).

Please tell me why are you so concerned with foreign oil usage? Is this concern greater than your concern regarding violent terroist actions threatening your livelyhood (or life)? What can you do to address each concern? What does this have to do with people trading in their 8-mpg Benz 500SL's for 11-mpg H2's?

[ChEwBaCcA]

Handlebars,

PLEEEEASE the Boston Tea Party and the ELF thing???? Man thats really pushin it.

You remarked to someone on here that they were a "tool" of the administration in power? I would say you must be a rank and file member of the Teddy Kennedy, Diane Fienstein, Hillary Clinton Liberal leftist wing.... AKA "AMERICA IS ALWAYS WRONG" crowd. "We will change you, and since we cant do it through proper debate and legislation, we will sue you w/ our trial lawyer buddies till you change."

You drive a bike to work, come to chicago and drive to work on a bike, I'll give you one year before a cabby rips your body in 5 different pcs. So not everyone is going to "conform" to your life style.

You want a debate? What type of debate did you start? So far all Ive seen is "This is how I live, and most people in this country are wrong" Wheres the debate in that?

You're a puppet for the same groups your railing against? You work for a dealership? lol ....you change and dump hundreds of gallons of oil every week..... you use harmfull chemicals in daily work, proven to cause cancer...... and your lecturing people on here about what they drive? This is almost comical.... but it proves a point....there is no limit to people out there that want to change others lifestyle.

Now you want a debate.........
Get me going... Ill make ya cry like that lil girl did after Kobe took care of her.

Chewy

[2offroad]

THIS IS MOST LIKLEY THE WORST THREAD ON NAXJA.

[Glenn B]

Originally posted by 2offroad
THIS IS MOST LIKLEY THE WORST THREAD ON NAXJA.

I don't see it as the worst thread on the NAXJA Forums.

My personal take is that some young man is terrified about the future for some reason. He thinks destroying other peoples property is going to change all of us, and make us think "correctly" and see the light.

He works at a glorified Toyota dealership, but rides a bike.... so it is all good, and we should do the same, in his opinion.

He thinks he is right, and we are all wrong. He does not seem to understand why we do not fear the things he is afraid of, in the manner that he thinks is right.

He thinks those of us with children must not love our children if we do not support these terrorists and their means of attaining their current goals. Not sure who the hell he thinks he is to judge the love of other people for their children.

I think somebody has frightened him somehow.... and he just cannot fathom that we are not as afraid of the future as he is. His support of those ELF terrorsists and their methods certainly does not help his argument.

That is may take. I may be wrong..... but that is how I read his propaganda.
Glenn

[KY Chris]

Originally posted by ChEwBaCcA
Handlebars,

PLEEEEASE the Boston Tea Party and the ELF thing???? Man thats really pushin it.

You remarked to someone on here that they were a "tool" of the administration in power? I would say you must be a rank and file member of the Teddy Kennedy, Diane Fienstein, Hillary Clinton Liberal leftist wing.... AKA "AMERICA IS ALWAYS WRONG" crowd. "We will change you, and since we cant do it through proper debate and legislation, we will sue you w/ our trial lawyer buddies till you change."

You drive a bike to work, come to chicago and drive to work on a bike, I'll give you one year before a cabby rips your body in 5 different pcs. So not everyone is going to "conform" to your life style.

You want a debate? What type of debate did you start? So far all Ive seen is "This is how I live, and most people in this country are wrong" Wheres the debate in that?

You're a puppet for the same groups your railing against? You work for a dealership? lol ....you change and dump hundreds of gallons of oil every week..... you use harmfull chemicals in daily work, proven to cause cancer...... and your lecturing people on here about what they drive? This is almost comical.... but it proves a point....there is no limit to people out there that want to change others lifestyle.

Now you want a debate.........
Get me going... Ill make ya cry like that lil girl did after Kobe took care of her.

Chewy

Chewy for president 2004. :)

The ELF and the ALF can suck it.

[Kejtar]

Hey... Alf Rocks :D Anyone seen any cats around? :D

[Bent]

Originally posted by Kejtar
Hey... Alf Rocks :D Anyone seen any cats around? :D

Fishing for synonyms anyone? :roflmao:

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Handlebars
I am also not the the kind of person who points out problems and leaves it up to others to find a solution. I have come up with an economically viable way for everybody who reads this to help out with this situation.


I have 2 questions for you, K9Cop:

1) What are you doing to save gas?
2) Do you love your children?

Perhaps for you owning a second vehicle is an economically viable solution, but for many people it isn't. Many people own SUVs, including but not limited to XJs, as their only means of automotive tranport.

Compared to a Hummer or Hummer 2, an XJ is hardly a "gas guzzler." No, it's not an econo box, either, but IMHO 19 MPG in mixed urban/suburban driving and 23 MPG highway is not "gas guzzler" territory.

You are also fortunate enough to live in a location where the climate favors using motorcycles for daily transport. That's not the case where I live. I used to ride a cycle. We have winter here, complete with ice, snow, slush, salt, and cold. My bike was insured on a "5-month layover" plan ... I had no liability coverage from 1 November through 31 March. So I needed a second daily driver anyway.

Also, let us not forget that the energy (gasoline) consumed in driving an automobile (or SUV) is only part of the equation. How much energy is consumed to produce the raw materials that go into a second vehicle, even a motorcycle, and then how much more energy is consumed in the manufacture of the vehicle itself?

Back in the early 70s I dropped out of motor sports and racing because I felt (at the time) that being involved in a sport that was a conspicuous consumer of petroleum products was not sending a good message. However, even as I made that choice I was fully aware of the idiocy of those who castigated auto racing while driving their station wagons to NFL football games every weekend. On average, I suspect more petroleum products are consumed in ONE weekend of NFL football than in an entire season of NASCAR racing.

Am I concerned about this country's mindless consumption of energy? Heck yes. Do I think giving up my XJ ... or buying a Honda Civic as a daily driver ... is the solution? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

All of the above aside, I cannot see how terrorism and arson are valid responses to concerns about energy consumption. If you'll remember your American history, the Boston tea party was about "Taxation without representation." Assuming they are American citizens and registered to vote, the ELF are not without representation. Their problem is that they take an extremist position and can't persuade enough people to vote their way, so they resort to terrorism as an alternative to dialogue.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by 2offroad
THIS IS MOST LIKLEY THE WORST THREAD ON NAXJA.
What makes this thread bad? I would say the people who come in here and attack the messenger while ignoring the message. Here’s a GREAT example:

Originally posted by ChEwBaCcA
You want a debate? What type of debate did you start? So far all Ive seen is "This is how I live, and most people in this country are wrong" Wheres the debate in that?
Yes Chewy, where is the debate? Pick any point, offer your point of view, and most importantly, offer facts to back up your assertions. BTW, I moved here from Los Angeles. I did about 40,000 miles of motorcycle commuting in the worst traffic that SoCal has to offer without getting a single scratch.

Ed, you brought up a lot of serious points, so I will respond to your post.
Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens
Begin with your yes or no answer to a simple question, "were the terrorist ELF actions justified and legitimate?"
No. Buuuut I have more to say on it later.

The eventual result of the USA exploiting non-domestic oil (or depleting our own oil)? The oil runs out.
I agree in conservation and fuel efficiency, but they only delay the eventual conclusion of depleated reserves: ours or theirs (so what is your choice).
Thank you for the acknowledgement that oil is a finite resource. You also listed several emerging technologies that will need a lot of development in order to become economically viable alternatives to oil. Wouldn’t it be a better idea to get some of those alternate forms of energy on line before the lack of oil becomes a crisis? You also listed as a disadvantage the vulnerability to terrorist attacks that some of those technologies have. Do you think that a nuclear power plant within our own borders is harder to defend than a middle eastern oil field, or a pipeline, or even a tanker on the high seas?

Does it matter, in global or local politics, that our oil will not run out in the next twenty years, or forty years? Probably not. Does it matter than the USA consumes the most oil? Probably not.
What does matter is supply and demand, and that the country that exploits the least expensive supply will have an economic advantage in global trade. As long as we exploit the low cost of foreign oil we will remain at an advantage in global trade. Why do I believe this? Look at the long term possibilities?
The long term possibilities are what I am worried about. Let’s say oil ceases to become an economical source of energy in 40 years. The United States has not developed any other viable forms of energy for industrial & residential uses or transportation. Who will have the advantage in global trade then? How does exploiting low cost foreign oil now prepare us for that day? It certainly does not give the average citizen any incentive to seek more economical cars, much less ones that are pioneering new technology. Many participants in this debate have acknowledged the need to conserve gas but haven't found the motivation yet.

Please tell me why are you so concerned with foreign oil usage? Is this concern greater than your concern regarding violent terroist actions threatening your livelyhood (or life)?

I will allow a couple of experts explain how our dependence on foreign oil leaves us vulnerable to terrorism:

From The Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfrterrorism.org/policy/oil.html)
What does oil have to do with the war on terrorism?
A lot. The United States is the world’s leading consumer of oil, and the health of the American economy depends on a reliable supply of foreign oil. That dependency has shaped America’s ties to Persian Gulf countries, which pump much of the world’s oil. The war on terrorism, however, has complicated the relationship between the United States and Persian Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia, the world’s leading oil exporter, is the homeland of Osama bin Laden, most of the September 11 hijackers, and key funders of the al-Qaeda terror network. The Israeli-Palestinian crisis has also raised the specter that Arab oil-producing countries might use oil as a weapon to punish the United States for its support of Israel.

From The United States Department of Energy (http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html)
Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security…
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.

Now Ed, back to your question, "were the terrorist ELF actions justified and legitimate?" I answered no. But can you see how hard it is to get my point across with polite, open dialogue? Several people have said that the ELF should have used a similar approach to get their point across, instead of vandalizing a Hummer dealership. Most everyone has avoided my assertion that we should be building fewer gas guzzling vehicles but the ELF has really gotten their attention!

[Glenn B]

A simple question....


How old are you?

[PhatXJ]

Thread Hijack in progress:

I can take a stock Liberty anywhere you guys take your built XJ's. :eyes:

[2offroad]

my point was just beyond my grasp.

the shots being made at people not the issue is why i said it. the issue is very much worth debate.

PhatXJ
step away from the keyboard and nobody gets hurt.

[PhatXJ]

Originally posted by 2offroad
PhatXJ
step away from the keyboard and nobody gets hurt.

http://jeepin.com//ubb/graemlins/rotflmao.gif

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by Handlebars

Ed, you brought up a lot of serious points, so I will respond to your post.



This is why non-tech is great, civil discourse on off-topic issues (I am pleased to see the forum revved up a bit, and that you do not take the jabs ;) personally).


Originally posted by Handlebars

Thank you for the acknowledgement that oil is a finite resource. You also listed several emerging technologies that will need a lot of development in order to become economically viable alternatives to oil. Wouldn't it be a better idea to get some of those alternate forms of energy on line before the lack of oil becomes a crisis? You also listed as a disadvantage the vulnerability to terrorist attacks that some of those technologies have. Do you think that a nuclear power plant within our own borders is harder to defend than a middle eastern oil field, or a pipeline, or even a tanker on the high seas?



Oil is a finite resource, but not as limited as all the crisis reports. The total oil reserves are a moving target, with new resource finds every year. If we believed each report since 1970 we would have ran out of oil long ago.

Look at alternative energy sources, and who is developing them? Is the EU or East Asia on the forefront, or the USA?

Wind? Does another country have anything like the wind farms in Altamonte, Banning, or Techachapi Passes (these are all in California). The current limit on wind power is distribution (power poles), NIMBY concerns for nearby residents (noise and sight lines), and environmental concerns of T&E avian species getting killed.

Solar? The world's largest solar array plant is (also) in the Southern California desert. The current limit on solar power is manufacturing cost (Ga & Si based cells), the T&E species impacts due to the vast ground cover required (for solar cell & solar thermal plants), and the distribution impacts (again, power pole easements).

Nuclear (fission and fusion)? Fission is one area where the USA leads in the available technology, as USA companies design and build the majority of plants, but France and Japan lead in total percentage of power consumption (the USA nuclear power program was stopped by internal political terror fears). Fusion power generation is always promised next decade (except by some environmental folks reading the predictions of 1965), and after over $1,000 Billion invested over sixty years we have no return.

I believe a domestic nuclear power plant is easier to defend than an oil pipeline in Iraq, but I also believe the consequence of the pipeline being targeted (rather than a powerplant) would be less of a concern to my family.

Fuel Cell? Tidal energy? Thermocline? Biomass? USA, again, leads the research and technology.

There is also the old-line energy sources to consider: hydroelectric and geothermal, domestic fossil fuels (both clean natural gas and dirty coal), ethanol (grain alcohol), and timber biomass (wood burning stoves). The USA may not exceed in the usage of each of these traditional power sources, as a percentage of total power consumed (Iceland uses more geothermal, etc.), although we do lead in clean technologies and efficiency (Btu output for therm exploited). You may not believe this, but the limit on each of these traditional energy sources has become domestic environmental concerns: water for fish stocks, byproducts of geothermal waste, gas & coal reclamation costs (and lack of non protected land to mine), lack of water and available land to place into grain production, and air pollution or timber harvest concerns regarding wood.

We need to reinforce some of these concerns to maintain the current standard of living we enjoy, but if foreign oil were eliminated, circumstances would change. It may be a shock to learn our exploitation of foreign oil supplies artificially protects our habitat from development, possibly more than the environmentalist crusade, but without foreign oil we would be advancing into protected areas for energy.

This is a long way to communicate the USA has explored and implemented alternative energy sources, and is a world leader in getting these sources on-line. The people who profess the USA is not actively researching and placing alternative energy sources on-line have never taken an honest look at who is implementing these power sources.


Originally posted by Handlebars
The long-term possibilities are what I am worried about. Let's say oil ceases to become an economical source of energy in 40 years. The United States has not developed any other viable forms of energy for industrial & residential uses or transportation. Who will have the advantage in global trade then? How does exploiting low cost foreign oil now prepare us for that day? It certainly does not give the average citizen any incentive to seek more economical cars, much less ones that are pioneering new technology. Many participants in this debate have acknowledged the need to conserve gas but haven't found the motivation yet.



When oil ceases to be available, 40-years (a guess), the entire world will suffer the impact. The USA will be on equal shaking footing as the balance of the world.

Exploiting low cost oil today provides profits that can fund research and development to prepare us for the day the oil runs out. Yes, I read about how all the current profits go to corporations and big business, and little about who hires the R&D to fund the research into energy alternatives (the same accused fat-cat corporations). An interesting thing to notice is the R&D leader corporations are not all USA based, but the majority of R&D is performed in the USA (something that may lend an advantage someday, the small companies with R&D programs that could not afford to do so with 400% higher fuel costs).

Incentive does not overcome a lack of capital. Profit is an excellent incentive, but without capital to invest (capital drained by higher fuel cost) the research may never get a chance to be explored. It's may be rewarding to realize the greatest hybred technology advancements were made when gasoline prices were at historical lows (just something to think about).


Originally posted by Handlebars

I will allow a couple of experts explain how our dependence on foreign oil leaves us vulnerable to terrorism:



I have no argument, we are vulnerable to fluctuations in our economy due to foreign actions (I lived through the two difficult oil cartel actions, and it can happen again).

We are also vulnerable to terrorism due to our lax religious freedoms (compared to other parts of the world), and due to our arrogance, and due to a number of bigoted reasons. Oil is only one dependence, and it's a dependency that we share with the rest of the world (if a pipeline gets terrorized the world suffers, not just the USA). This failure to acknowledge an attack against the USA as an attack against the world economy is part of the arrogance that makes us vulnerable to political terrorism, as well as industrial terrorism (even if it's not the USA's arrogance that blinds the public to the potential for world tragedy).


Originally posted by Handlebars

Now Ed, back to your question, "were the terrorist ELF actions justified and legitimate?" I answered no. But can you see how hard it is to get my point across with polite, open dialogue? Several people have said that the ELF should have used a similar approach to get their point across, instead of vandalizing a Hummer dealership. Most everyone has avoided my assertion that we should be building fewer gas guzzling vehicles but the ELF has really gotten their attention!


A little Shock & Awe ;) ?

We may not agree with everyone on every issue (and I reserve my right to change my mind, or plead ignorance) but these discussions usually get past the name-calling and uncover the issues (at least on NAXJA). I get into to trouble discussing my theories on death wobble too (but that's tech-talk, and this is non-tech).

[Georgia Mike]

:speepin:I'm gonna go take a nap......wake me when this thread ends.....no wait....I don't wanna go out Rip VanWinkle style...:laugh:

[Handlebars]

Dang Ed, I think we started out on opposite sides of this argument and met somewhere in the middle to finish it.

I honestly didn't know how many alternate energy forms the U.S. had in the works, it is reasurring to know that! Hopefully we will be the first ones to find whatever will be the replacement for oil. Thanks for providing me and the good members of NAXJA some enlightenment on the topic.

Glenn- I am 34. Old enough to remember paying less than a buck a gallon for gas. Old enough to (barely) remember lines at the gas stations. Why?

[Glenn B]

Just curious. Trying to understand where you are coming from is all.
I too remember paying less than a buck for a gallon of gas, and rationing at the gas stations. I remember the Odd/Even days when you could get fuel based on your license plate number.

Funny thing.... go to the grocery store and look at bottled water. You can actually pay MORE for water than for Gasoline. Boggles my mind a bit.
Glenn

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by Handlebars
Dang Ed, I think we started out on opposite sides of this argument and met somewhere in the middle to finish it.

I honestly didn't know how many alternate energy forms the U.S. had in the works, it is reasurring to know that! Hopefully we will be the first ones to find whatever will be the replacement for oil. Thanks for providing me and the good members of NAXJA some enlightenment on the topic.

Glenn- I am 34. Old enough to remember paying less than a buck a gallon for gas. Old enough to (barely) remember lines at the gas stations. Why?


We may still be on opposite sides regarding who's energy resources to exploit (I say burn the foreign goods and save ours till the other countries energy runs out), although we agree on the need for R&D and implementation of alternate energy sources.

One hundred years ago a replacement for whale oil or coal was unheard of, not even on the wish list of most visionaries. Refined petroleum oil had been around since the early 1800's, and without efficient distillation it was considered inferior to whale oil and coal (for transportation and energy usage). The solution to scarce whale oil stocks and dirty coal, as a fuel, was around nearly a century before it became economically viable: refined petroleum oil. The coal mining strikes of the early 1900's and the elimination of the whale fishery, along with oil field development in Texas, motivated the adoption of petroleum as a favored energy source (and the USA, and the world, survived the energy crisis).

History will repeat itself (it will take a crisis to reveal a superior energy source).

People thought we would run out of petroleum oil by 1930, and we are still finding new reserves. People also thought oil drilling was far superior to coal mining as acceptable development. One look at a 1910 coal mine and a 1920 oil field would convince almost everyone (even John Muir) on the advantages of oil as an energy source. Compare the 1920 oil field (or the 1910 coal mine), to the oil fields on the north slope of Alaska, and the habitat impact is near zero. The USA has managed to reduce the surface habitat impact of energy development to roads and pipelines that do not significantly alter the natural migration and lifestyle of the native species. Compared to the impact of most alternative energy sources this is incredible progress (even solar has more negative habitat impact when applied outside urban areas).

We were lucky that oil drilling and refining is much more environmentally benign than coal or whale oil, or the world pollution problems would be far worse. We may not be so lucky to convert to a more benign energy source in the future. The alternative energy sources we hear touted by the environmental media receive considerable unreported investigation (by the scientific community) regarding byproduct hazards. The unpublished hazards are why many sources are not exploited today (lead battery issues, ecosystem conflicts, waste storage, habitat impact from extraction, etc.).

Most people do not know the extent of the USA involvement in alternative energy development, or energy conservation. We read the papers about complaints that we are not exploiting the energy and conservation technology reported in Popular Mechanics, but little else (and if we believe PM is the guide, we deserve to be functionaly ignorant about reliable energy.)

I follow alternative energy development because it was one of the areas of specialization I studied in University. Twenty years ago the alternative list was smaller, but each was also more acceptable for an environmental standpoint. We did not worry as much about the impact of hydroelectric generation on fish stocks, or windfarms on local avian habitat stock. We certainly did not expect the fierce opposition we see today to expanding electrical transmission coridoors.

If we converted to all electric vehicles, tomorrow, the entire country would be in a blackout every night (even with odd-even charging night restrictions). The same people who demand electrical vehicles as the solution, to pollution problems, oppose the infrastructure to support their goal. It takes a tuned ear to hear what the real goal is, eliminate vehicles (and these Wildlands folks are not ignorant idiots, they know the intentional disconnect in their own policies).

I follow trends in conservation because I apply the technology at work. The operating kWh per square foot of the typical USA office building or manufacturing plant is less than most similar plants in other developed countries, and significantly less than that of buildings in undeveloped countries (those high-rise buildings you see in Nigeria and India). The tight fisted CEO's of the USA see every dollar saved in avoided energy expense (utility costs) as pure profit to the bottom line. Given a choice, most would finance $400,000 a year in capital improvements to avoid $500,000 in utility expenses (and they pay people to make this happen). You do not see this finiancially driven activist attitude worldwide.

My last issue is the argument that a worker riding to work on a 50 mpg motorcycle (or an ELF activist), is somehow more effective with practicing global conservation, compared to a CEO driving a H2. The H2 driving CEO may have championed a $100 million guaranteed energy conservation program, a great net environmental benefit to the world, and yet be painted and vandalized as an energy despot.

Is this fair, to condemn the H2 driver?

[Beezil]

this thread on any other jeep forum would have turned to crap.

this is why we're the best jeep forum out there.

[Erik]

Handlebars, you are spot on. Keep up the good fight dude. I've listened to a few lectures put on by Elves, and they do have some strong points. One is that peaceful protests rarely change anything. Sometimes you just have to pick up a blunt object and smack people up the side of the head to get their attention. Sure worked in this case.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens

My last issue is the argument that a worker riding to work on a 50 mpg motorcycle (or an ELF activist), is somehow more effective with practicing global conservation, compared to a CEO driving a H2. The H2 driving CEO may have championed a $100 million guaranteed energy conservation program, a great net environmental benefit to the world, and yet be painted and vandalized as an energy despot.

Is this fair, to condemn the H2 driver?
In theory, no.

Buuut your theory relies heavily upon the qualifier "may". :) What percentage of those H2 drivers would you estimate to be champions of conservation? I've found that people chose transportation to try to project the image of who they are (or think they are) to others.

[woody]

Originally posted by Beezil
this thread on any other jeep forum would have turned to crap.

this is why we're the best jeep forum out there.

Yep...once the emotion burns away, ya get at some good, rational (?) debate.

As for the ELF, ALF, PETA etc... Fringe groups / underground movements and guerilla war tactics rarely succeed as an catalyst for change unless a large # of the 'target audience' support the cause. OTOH, tightly knit groups with good operational security can and do wreak all sorts of mayhem, mischief, murder etc...and as long as OPSEC is strictly observed, there is piss-little anyone can do to counter it. Of course, the reaction might be a little heavy-handed, but that's the risk one takes if they want to push the envelope.

Ed brings some good thoughts to the table (as usual) on alternative energy sources... I'd love an efficient home that was 100% off the grid, efficiently using local materials and renewable resources as much as possible...but even then folks get their panties wadded up. (Wood Heat comes to mind...local bans on wood heating)

I do see the wisdom of using up the OTHER COUNTRIES (affordable) oil first though... can someone confirm or deny that our Alaska crude production is sold entirely to Japan?

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by Handlebars
In theory, no.

Buuut your theory relies heavily upon the qualifier "may". :) What percentage of those H2 drivers would you estimate to be champions of conservation? I've found that people chose transportation to try to project the image of who they are (or think they are) to others.


You might be surprised who in business is a champion of conservation (being in the conservation for-profit business is not a bad thing)?

I believe it's no more likely to find a conservationist driving an H2, than the likelyhood of finding an Earth First! activist driving a gross polluting air-cooled VW beatle. I estimate probably 80% of the H2 buyers practice or actively support some form of conservation (in direct charity funding support of a sportsman or environmental organization). I estimate the dollar amount of the voluntary conservation charity from Hummer owners to be quite a bit more than that donated by the ELF?

Did you know that John Muir owned and operated a timber mill inside Yosemite Valley? A businessman in the timber industry could never be a proponent of conservation, could he?

[Handlebars]

Good points all, Ed.

Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens
You might be surprised who in business is a champion of conservation (being in the conservation for-profit business is not a bad thing)? What kind of business might that be? Who knows, it might just be more interesting than what I currently do. ;)
Did you know that John Muir owned and operated a timber mill inside Yosemite Valley? A businessman in the timber industry could never be a proponent of conservation, could he?
I've read some of his writings. If there was ever a tree lover, it was John Muir. I'm pretty sure he wasn't clear-cutting entire forests. Properly managed, the timber industry is an entirely sustainable resource. Is this what you meant in your first point?

I'll catch up with you next week, I'm off to Moab tomorrow. Have a nice weekend! :)

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by Handlebars
I've read some of his writings. If there was ever a tree lover, it was John Muir. I'm pretty sure he wasn't clear-cutting entire forests. Properly managed, the timber industry is an entirely sustainable resource.

Ummm there is one flaw in this... at that time there was no such thing as managed timber industry... also peole like him owned companies and had others manage them.... with all the time he spent hiking and exploring how much time do you think he spent overseeing the day to day operations? my guess... next to none... Being to all those parks, I have seen displays and articles what the logging industry did then..... they would cut the biggest tree they could find just for the hell of it!

Kejtar

[Matthew Currie]

Originally posted by Kejtar
Ummm there is one flaw in this... at that time there was no such thing as managed timber industry... also peole like him owned companies and had others manage them.... with all the time he spent hiking and exploring how much time do you think he spent overseeing the day to day operations? my guess... next to none... Being to all those parks, I have seen displays and articles what the logging industry did then..... they would cut the biggest tree they could find just for the hell of it!

Kejtar

And JJ Audubon shot the birds before he painted them too.

[whoozey1953]

Originally posted by Georgia Mike
Let's average that out,shall we? 13+17/2=15 MPG average vs. the H2's average of 11 MPG. A WHOPPING 4 MPG difference! Now, I'm not an idiot,and I do realize that over the lifetime of the vehicle that will add up to quite a difference,but if I were you,I would have never even brought that one up. I mean,you claim that a Lexus that gets an average of 15 MPG is so much better than the H2? And the fact that the Lexus was EPA certified and all that jazz doesn't disguise the fact that it sucks more gas than an older,simpler XJ! I'm not trying to argue your point on wastefulness,but that Lexus seems pretty wasteful to me,and you even said it was overpriced. Make up your mind:D

AND the money goes to the J.A. PAN company, not an Americam company. Mr. Handlebars not only bashes Americans, he works for a foreign entity subsidiary.

Put one of these hats on, Mr. Handlebars --> :anon:

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by KY Chris
Chewy for president 2004. :)

The ELF and the ALF can suck it.

Both Glenn and Chewy.... ! :spin1:

[MonsterXJ]

i agree with both sides, but i do not take extremes, yes, i agree that the h2 is an un-envirofriendly social status. but, is my grandma gonna get mugged because she has a fur coat? I mean come on man, a crime is a crime and we have to draw the line somewhere.i dont wanna get beat down in the pizza-hut parking lot for ordering a meat-lovers.

[Hunter-Lynchburg,Va]

around Richmond,Va tires are slashed on a weekly basis. the vechicles targeted are SUV's only.

the thing i dont understand/ agree with is how they are portrayed on the news. if they are using knives shouldnt they be labeled as armed and dangerous? the news portrays them as pranksters, which is not the case because of the agendas they have.


Hunter

[Steelerfan]

Originally posted by Handlebars
C’mon people, do you really think that the earth’s oil reserves will last forever? What purpose does it serve to have rich, materialistic people driving 6000 pound SUVs 10~15, 000 miles a year on paved roads? I know, it’s the American Way of Life. Unfortunately, the American Way of Life has become rooted in consumerism. We as a nation are living like there is no tomorrow, consuming the largest share of the world’s resources while at the same time having the largest consumer debt and smallest individual savings rate of any industrialized country. Our administration has chosen to invade and occupy foreign lands in the name of “protecting the American Way of Life”. Have you ever really thought about what this means? There are no WMD’s in Iraq- but there is the world’s second largest oil reserve. If we really were out to rid the world of terrrorists, why don’t we start with Saudi Arabia and the UAE? Most of the September 11th attackers came from those countries. Or better yet- why don’t we just cut off the financing that allows them to exist as anything other than a barren land run by religious ideologues that still don’t consider women as equal to men? Most of their money comes in the form of oil revenues from the USA. A true patriot will trade in that H2 with the American flag stickers plastered all over for a Saturn station wagon. This is one place where Joe Citizen can really put his money where his mouth is.

I do not think this attack by the Earth Liberation Front is sick at all. They attacked the symbol of the wastefulness of the American Way of Life. The Hummer H2- a sheep in wolf’s clothing. Designed to look like the rugged military workhorse, while removing most of it’s off-road capabilities to better coddle the fat, lazy ass of the superficial American yuppie. 20 less H2’s to go around? Who cares! They did it in such a way to avoid harm to people. Nobody was inside the dealer at the time so the firefighters didn’t have to put themselves into jeopardy performing rescues. They left their message and calling card prominently posted, avoiding the “who? and why?” questions that follow such attacks. Their attack got lots of news coverage, which has made a least a few people look to their driveways and reconsider the wisdom of driving a needlessly large and inefficient vehicle. Why is this political attack sick anyways? Way more than 20 cars are vandalized, stolen, stripped and destroyed every night in Southern California, out of simple greed. This appalled reaction is nothing more than a denial of the realization that you are a part of the problem. The Covina attack was an elegantly executed act of monkey wrenching, not a sick, random assault that would have otherwise been dismissed as life in the big city.

I think that there is something wrong with YOU. Destroying some one elses property and you don't think that this buch of criminals is doing some thing wrong? It's criminal and I hope they are caught and put in prison were they belong. And if you think that SUV's are so wrong how come you're posting hewre in the first place? Isn't an XJ classified as an SUV? Why don't you set an example and get a Saturn your self?

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by Handlebars
Way more than 20 cars are vandalized, stolen, stripped and destroyed every night in Southern California, out of simple greed. This appalled reaction is nothing more than a denial of the realization that you are a part of the problem. The Covina attack was an elegantly executed act of monkey wrenching, not a sick, random assault that would have otherwise been dismissed as life in the big city.

I just realized something.... you are trying to justify an act of crime, represented in wasteful vandalism by the fact that something else is also happening? It's the same in my book as saying that mass murder is fine because throughout nation people die for various reasons as well.....

There was nothing elegact, it's not monkey wrenching (it's an insult to all wrench and grease monkeys actually to say so) it's pure wastefull, dangerous, highly environmentally unsafe, potentially dangorous to any surrounding buidlings and people as well!!!

Sorry to bring up this quote up again (as it's from one of the original posts) but somehow I missed the meaning of it till someone requoted it and I reread the posts.....

Kejtar

[2offroad]

see it goes from the issues (very good thoughts and ideas) to taking potshots a the person.

STICK TO THE ISSUE, VERY GOOD READING THEN.

[Steelerfan]

Originally posted by 2offroad
see it goes from the issues (very good thoughts and ideas) to taking potshots a the person.

STICK TO THE ISSUE, VERY GOOD READING THEN.

Sorry can't agree with you. It was a criminal act and he is condoning it. Trying to make it something that it is not. This wasn't a prank or putting a monkey wrench into some thing it was destruction of a lot of very expensive property. There is nothing noble or right about it. I think that he and you would see this very differantly if it were your vehicles that were destroyed.

[Kejtar]

Look at what this has potentially started.... a copy cat act:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030903/us_nm/crime_suvs_dc_1

This is bad as it IMHO gets people's minds set against the greenies. As I said before even though I support quite a few greenie ideas, I more then dislike their organizations as they seem to be one minded and selfish in their acts (their way is the right way and there is no room for delibaration)

Kejtar

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Beezil
this thread on any other jeep forum would have turned to crap.

this is why we're the best jeep forum out there.

That's a big 10-4, buddy.

RR3

[Rev Den]

Remember these acts next time you bitch about rising insurence rates.

Rev

[Jeep Biscuit]

Sick? Actually, the only sicko's are people who think they need a oversized enormous Big.Ugly.Sh!tbox (BUS) to commute back and forth to work.

Want to know what the end result of "I need the capability" mentality will be?

It will be this...... No heavy framed, V8 powered tow rigs will be available for those people who actually have a NEED for them. Why? Because theyll be lightened up and downsized as a result of people using them to commute to work, go to the mall instead of what they were designed for.

[Jeep Biscuit]

.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Steelerfan
I think that there is something wrong with YOU. Destroying some one elses property and you don't think that this buch of criminals is doing some thing wrong? It's criminal and I hope they are caught and put in prison were they belong.
May I suggest applying to the Police Academy? You can actually make a difference with a badge. :) BTW, I didn’t commit any crime.

And if you think that SUV's are so wrong how come you're posting hewre in the first place? Isn't an XJ classified as an SUV? Why don't you set an example and get a Saturn your self?
If you read this whole thread you would have seen what my alternative form of transportation is. It gets better gas mileage than a Saturn too! I bought my Cherokee to take off road, which I have done enough that the unibody is falling apart. How much time do you think the average Hummer H2 will spend off road?

Originally posted by Kejtar

There was nothing elegact, it's not monkey wrenching (it's an insult to all wrench and grease monkeys actually to say so) it's pure wastefull, dangerous, highly environmentally unsafe, potentially dangorous to any surrounding buidlings and people as well!!!


Remi- Read “The Monkey Wrench Gang” by Edward Abbey, you will know what I mean by the term. Any open minded jeeper who loves the Southwest will enjoy it, you will also understand the eco-terrorist’s mindset a little better. Any library will have it... except maybe the ones in Utah.

Once again, let me compliment the environental concern vocalized by the membership of NAXJA. You guys are making me proud!

[Steelerfan]

Originally posted by Handlebars
[B]May I suggest applying to the Police Academy? You can actually make a difference with a badge. :) BTW, I didn’t commit any crime.

As a matter of fact I used to wear a badge, right were you live. I used to be a Corrections Officer in the Bernalio County Detension Center.

[Ralph]

This whole issue revolves around one main point. Do you want the freedom to choose your own vehicle or do you want the government or a bunch of enviro-nazis choosing for you? I get so tired of listening to a bunch of holier-than-thou types trying to tell me what I can or can't or should or shouldn't do.

I hope they catch the perps and they are made to pay for all the damage they caused.

RR3

[Steelerfan]

Originally posted by Ralph
This whole issue revolves around one main point. Do you want the freedom to choose your own vehicle or do you want the government or a bunch of enviro-nazis choosing for you? I get so tired of listening to a bunch of holier-than-thou types trying to tell me what I can or can't or should or shouldn't do.

I hope they catch the perps and they are made to pay for all the damage they caused.

RR3

Your absolutely right Ralph. And to those that say what about when we run out of fossile fuel I say that necessity is the mother of invention and that something can and will be done. That is the American way.

[Lupine]

Wow. This is like, two separate threads.

The first would be regarding resources and our ever expanding use of them.

The second is political activism and its effect on public awareness.

Handlebars, I understand that you are concerned about using up petroleum resources due to the fact that the amount of petroleum in existence is finite and driving H2s is wasteful because of their low MPG. There are many other ways to use petroleum products, however, and I would be curious to note which use is most responsible for the increasing rate of depletion of those resources. Without this kind of information, and an understanding of where H2 driving fits in as a use, there is no evidence to support that H2 sales are responsible for the majority of the increase in rate of petroleum depletion.

Now, this is my personal opinion: the idea of free enterprise may be interpreted as similar to an economic analysis of costs and benefits, applicable to behavioral ecology (the marginal value theorem). Simply put, economic decisions (buying a H2 regardless of how much oil it consumes) follow the marginal value theorem of natural ecology. Until the cost of using oil increases with respect to a limited supply, the behavior of purchasing a vehicle that will not provide the same amount of return (efficiency) will continue. That's nature, baby. Humans will not change their ways those ways start affecting their personal resources significantly. It doesn't make us stupid, or foolish, to do so; it's just another indication of humans being subject to behavioral ecology. The funniest part, however, is the fact that ELF people are advocating something that goes against the laws of nature.

Anyway, my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
Lupine

[Planetcat]

Regardless of opinion on the arson fire and the "victim", it's a felony crime and the perpetrators should be punished. If you don't like the laws of our country or the freedom for all, move out.