Pain and discomfort

[Fergie]

I often wonder about people's pain tolerance levels, and how their level would relate to mine.

I see a lot of people that are in some kind of constant discomfort, or pain on a daily basis, and I also see some folks that take Advil at the first hint of a headache.

What kind of pain do you live with, what is the worst you've had, or which is the worst kind for you to deal with?

Just curious.

[Rev Den]

Migraines.

If I do not catch it in time by far tops anything else I have every experianced. Worse yet is that those that do not get them cannot understand just how bad they are.

Rev

[Fergie]

Never had one, but the wife suffers from them. Brought on by certain foods, like dark colas and such. The meds she takes for them knock her out for a good day or so.

[lazarus]

well for starters I crushed two disc in my lower back, they decided to pinch both siatic(sp) nerves in my buttocks and legs. Had sx tried to fix did a pretty good job. Many years later I still deal with one leg sometimes feeling like its on fire, and then its numb or cold. The worst ever was I had two molars with cavities so I went and bought dental pics to clean out the cavity, Hit the nerve on one and dealt with exposed nerve for a long time until it died. The dentist looked and scooted away when I told her that. two root canals later and crowns thier all better.When I went in for the root canal the assistant did her normal hot/cold test and even after me telling her what tooth it was, and asking her not to bang on it sheh did anyway.I almost killed her! Of all the things I have broken or mangled I have to say tooth nerve pain is by far the worst I have ever had.

[planefixer]

Occaisonally:Migraines
Daily: 2 bulging discs, 1 herniated disc.

Worst pain was when I broke my wrist during football in high school- fractured Radius and Ulna, the first 8 hours with no painkillers.

[8Mud]

I have some chronic pain (arthritis), I mostly deal with it, though it does make me cranky when it gets bad.
Tooth pain can be bad, I've had a few abscesses that fired up the old nerve endings.
Migraines will put me down for the count, not so much for intensity, but because they just go on and on.
Warming up after partially freezing some digits will get your attention. You know your in for it, when cold water feels like it is scalding your hands.
I think it's a toss up between coming out of the anesthesia once early and kidney stones. For the worst I can remember. Funny some really serious injuries hardly hurt at all (till later).
My wife is funny, a little Boo Boo, like a small knife cut while cooking and she about goes in hysterics. I've seen her crash her bicycle and land on her head and get up and brush herself off and carry on riding. It almost seems like the worse her pain, the better she deals with it.
Yoga really helped me with pain management. It's all in your head anyway. Other than shock, pain is not fatal. As long as it hurts, you know for sure your not dead.
A saying that has always stuck with me is "Pain, deal with it, it is over rated, suck it up and soldier on".
But two broken bones grating together will sure enough give you that, I've got to throw up, dizzy, black spots in front of your eyes, pain thresshold.

[Gil BullyKatz]

I'm married w/kids.

no need to elaborate.

:D

[Kejtar]

I often wonder about people's pain tolerance levels, and how their level would relate to mine.

I see a lot of people that are in some kind of constant discomfort, or pain on a daily basis, and I also see some folks that take Advil at the first hint of a headache.

What kind of pain do you live with, what is the worst you've had, or which is the worst kind for you to deal with?

Just curious.
For the past 2 years I've been dealing with an ongoing pain in my right knee. I've been trying to get it taken care of (err fixed or at least fully diagnosed) for the past 6 months and it's been a process that went nowhere (looooong story). End result is that I still got a pain in the knee and I just keep dealing with it (it's so bad that if I stand the wrong way and turn on it, the knee has a tendency of collapsing underneath me). There are days where it's pretty bad, but I don't take any pills for it. Heck... I've been stiched raw on a pretty bad tear once (really unpleasant feeling: thank god for adrenaline!) and I've lived through it (though I would prefer not to repeat the experience). I've dropped an axle on my hand a while back and i'm pretty sure I messed up one of the fingers pretty badly but all I did was just keep it cool to deal with the swelling.

Anyways, I'll take an anesthetic during a procedure (dental especially) but after that everytime I have prescription pain killers for whatever I end up having done to myself they just get old and I throw them out after a couple of years :D

Oh yeah, I think in my whole life I took something for a headache maybe once. But looking back at it, I think I had a concussion of sorts (it was a day or two after a bad skiing accident) and I couldn't even see straight. I'll bitch and grumble about the pain, but that's about where it will end for me.

So to summarize my barely awake morning ramblings.... I don't believe in pain killers for the most part ;)

[Beej]

Herniated discs here too. Sciatica is bad, but I found that after a while, I learned to dissociate from the pain and was able to function. Well, mentally anyway, physically, I couldn't do anything and hobbled around like an old man on a cane. My son used to kick my cane out from under me and then run like the devil howling with evil laughter. I'd actually forgotten about that, thanks for reminding me. ;)

I also accidentally cut the tip of my index finger off about 12 years ago. Right across the nerve endings on the pad at the end of the finger. That was frigging brutal. I had to have a morphine patch for that one and anytime I moved during sleep it would awaken me. It took six months before I was able to pick anything up with that hand, and well over a year before the pain subsided completely. That said, it still hurts from time to time.

The worst by far though is like Rev said: migraines. If you don't suffer from them, and I don't mean experience, I mean suffer, then shut the f*ck up. There is nothing that matches the pain and for me, there is absolutely no escape. Pain medications do nothing, they don't even scratch it. I can hear incandescent lightbulbs humming when I have a bad one. I can hardly move and it much easier to smash a lamp than shut it off when I'm in the throes. Its been a while, knock on wood, but I'm pretty sure there's no escape...

[Jeff in VA]

Worst chronic pain I've ever experienced: gout. Suffered with it (literally lost employment and the ability to walk for about 1.5 yrs until I was properly diagnosed).....I want three years of my life back! I take maintenence meds now, and haven't had a recurrence in 7 years.

Back when I was in commercial foodservice, I cut three different fingertips off. One of them is still numb to this day. I'd gladly sever a digit over a gout attack, any day.

Jeff

[8Mud]

Worst chronic pain I've ever experienced: gout. Suffered with it (literally lost employment and the ability to walk for about 1.5 yrs until I was properly diagnosed).....I want three years of my life back! I take maintenence meds now, and haven't had a recurrence in 7 years.

Back when I was in commercial foodservice, I cut three different fingertips off. One of them is still numb to this day. I'd gladly sever a digit over a gout attack, any day.

Jeff
Gout is another one of those pains that just goes on and on. Nothing I've ever tried gave any relief. You just kind of lay there, sweat a lot and wait for the next wave of pain. I'm thankful my episodes are rare and far between.
I once took off jogging and told myself I wasn't going to stop till the gout pain did. The gout won, I won't try that one again.
I force myself to drink at least a quart of Grapefruit juice a day (in addition to my normal fluid intake), I don't really know if the extra citric acid or just the extra fluids help. But it has been a long time since I've had any trouble.

[Fergie]

What brought this whole discussion up was a conversation with my wife regarding tattoos, and the painful areas that are tattooed. She said that prior to her last tattoo, she was offered by several co-workers, different pain pills and such, but she responded that pain was part of the experience. well, come to find out that a lot of people dope before they get inked. Which brought me to my thoughts of "Gee, a lot of people out there are XXXXXXs when it comes to temporary and chronic pain."

I look at my father, who dealt with a malfromed hip bone from an accident, and he made it through the day, hobbling around, and grimacing when it really got bad, but he never complained. Now he just finished up with cancer, and dealing with chemo/radiation, as well as a new titanium femur from a bad tumor.....still no complaining.

Maybe it is just my age group that is soft, or maybe they just dont know the "suck it up and drive on" mentality....who knows.

[jmowens]

Kidney stones. Period. End of sentence. You haven't lived until you've pushed a 4mm cuckleburr out your weewee! Actually, the last part is not near as bad as the trip from the kidney to the bladder.

I literally prayed that if I was going to have to live through this much longer, the Lord would have to take me, because I was not man enough to take it!

Thank God I have nothing chronic, but I will say that my pain threashold quadroupled after that day!

[MisterFubar]

I don't take pain pills for anything, occasionally I will take an anti-imflamatory for my knees or back. I'd rather fix what is causing the pain then cover it up.

The only time I've ever gone to the doctor or ER is when I've actually broken something, been ordered to go, severed a finger(twice now) or the time I blew myself up and had second degree burns on everything that wasn't covered with shorts, boots and a t-shirt and third degree on one leg and the forearm that I managed to shield my eyes with. It didn't really bother me until about an hour later when I was taking a shower to get the burnt hair/flesh smell off and large chunks of skin started coming off. I finally went to the ER about 8 hours later after the pain was almost keeping me from functioning.

[RichP]

My problem is I have very high pain pads or threshold, by the time I feel it it is usually very bad. My wife will know I'm in trouble just by looking at how I stand or walk or look long before I know I have a problem.

[planefixer]

Need to add a couple to my list.

The worst tatoo pain was across the back of my calf.
I ran all of Kane Creek, in 120º heat, while passing a kidney stone.I was literally doubled over in pain by the time we got back to camp.
The thing i hate the most about migraines is my loss of vision and the accompanying nausea.Migraines totally suck- I'm glad I only get a couple of them a year.

[Fergie]

Need to add a couple to my list.

The worst tatoo pain was across the back of my calf.
I ran all of Kane Creek, in 120º heat, while passing a kidney stone.I was literally doubled over in pain by the time we got back to camp.
The thing i hate the most about migraines is my loss of vision and the accompanying nausea.Migraines totally suck- I'm glad I only get a couple of them a year.
Worst tattoo pain would be:

1. Colar bone area
2. Any type of scar tissue(my back in this case)
3. Rib cage, especialyl when there is heavy shading to be done.

[Beej]

I knew a guy who had a 100 dollar bill tattooed on his wang. He flopped it out at the bar for all to see. I can't even imagine that one. There was a dollar sign on the tip as well...

[RyanM]

Bad/weak ankles. The left one will roll on me sometimes walking if I step wrong.

Worst Pain: Getting hit you know where once playing softball.

[XJ Dreamin']

I read an article a long time ago about a lady in England who could block pain. I don't remember how she discovered her ability, and according to her it wasn't anything that she had conciously developed. Over the course of her life, for one reason or another, she had had several surgeries and never took any anesthetic or pain medication. For no apparent reason one day, during a fairly routine ingrown toenail surgery, she did start to feel pain. After that she couldn't block anymore and had to start using meds like the rest of us.

I'm not going to try to compete with you guys for worst pain. The worst I have is a little planar facia inflammation once in a while. I don't have any tats on my wang, no herniated discs, and I've never had my leg ripped off while riding my scooter through Tokyo. My sister suffers from migraines and you guys that suffer with her have my full sympathy. That said, in the arena of getting banged up or tattooed, there is an element of how much pain you are willing to accept. Also, it is possible to train yourself to disassociate from pain.

Glen's Walking With Dinosaurs thread reminded my of the Walking With Cavemen show. At one point one of the Neandertals takes a slide down a slope and breaks a finger. He casually reaches over with his other hand and resets the finger. The narrator says that the skeletal record of Neandertal indicates that they had a higher threshold for pain than modern humans. I had to stop the show at that point. The skeletal record of Neandertal, when compared to modern humans shows the same frequency of breaks, to the same bones as a professional rodeo cowboy. All the skeletal record of Neandertal indicates is that they had to deal with big animals on a regular basis. It does not indicate that they had a higher tolerence for pain than a modern rodeo cowboy. It might indicate that they were just as crazy.

[87manche]

Bad/weak ankles. The left one will roll on me sometimes walking if I step wrong.

Worst Pain: Getting hit you know where once playing softball.
I've got the same problems with my ankles.
walking long distances is killer, and occasionally I just fall over while walking.
Wife thinks it's funny.

[GrimmJeeper]

i got a bad back, constant pain since i was beaten up with a baseball bat when i was a kid. i dont take anything for it because i worry about what constant pain meds would do to my body in the long run... it hurts bad enough to make we wince if i pick up something too fast but i can deal with it.

[Ben H]

I have a headache 24 hours a day. I have a migraine at least 3 times a week. Migraines hurt a lot less after the years have passed.

Edit: Ripping off a fingernail makes me faint but doesnt really hurt for long.

Edit: I bit off half of my tongue once after getting kicked in the face and laughed at the blood, it only hurt after the surgury.

Edit: Had my calf ripped off when I was a kid and it became gangreous, that sucked. Had to get a needle stuck into my bone, which is possibly one of the worst pains ever.

[XJEEPER]

I'm married w/kids.

no need to elaborate.

:D

I'm guessing if the question was posed to your wife, she would post your photo......... :laugh:

[streetpirate]

im a wimp but my buddy Bryson EXPLODED a testicle while playing lacross, they opened up his sack to find one teste and a pile of goo. He is now known as the Uniballer.


im thinking that hurt a bit.



i cant even imagine what gout would be like.

[Lonestar]

I have a brittle bone disease called osteogenesis imperfecta (O.I.). Breaking over forty bones and more than fifteen surgeries, which involved either the installation or removal of hardward, has built up my thresshold for pain a lot.

I broke my thumb one afternoon working on my jeep. Ended up wraping it up in tape and went to work that night. It took a week and my mom nagging me to death before I went the the doctor.

The worst pain that I was accually conscious for was when I broke my femur in two places and the bone was extremely close to puncturing the skin. Traction never felt so good.

Needless to say, my body is fawked up. But at least I'm still kickin.

[GSequoia]

I knew a guy who had a 100 dollar bill tattooed on his wang. He flopped it out at the bar for all to see. I can't even imagine that one. There was a dollar sign on the tip as well...


Good thing he's Canadian, it's only worth two fiddy.



Right now my biggest pain is the damn City of Torrance!

[GrimmJeeper]

Right now my biggest pain is the damn City of Torrance!

you and me both brother. my jeep gets towed every time i leave it parked in the same spot on the street for more than 3 days. and guess who owns the ONLY company contracted to tow for the police (Van Lingen Towing) in Torrance????? MAYOR FRANK SCOTTO. talk about a sweet deal. there are so many fk,ed up towing laws in this city its awful.

[GSequoia]

you and me both brother. my jeep gets towed every time i leave it parked in the same spot on the street for more than 3 days. and guess who owns the ONLY company contracted to tow for the police (Van Lingen Towing) in Torrance????? MAYOR FRANK SCOTTO. talk about a sweet deal. there are so many fk,ed up towing laws in this city its awful.

Scotto bought Van Lingen? They used the be the big two...

You've got a shitty neighbor most likley, somebody who calls on shit (same as I). Look for tire markings and such, you can always jack it up and move that wheel :) (I've also seen one parking cop put a paper clip on top of hte tire).

I once had an old Chevy truck in front of my house wih a blown head gasket, because I had one of those neighbors every third day I'd push it forward and backward with my Courier, they were never able to ticket it ;)

[GrimmJeeper]

I once had an old Chevy truck in front of my house wih a blown head gasket, because I had one of those neighbors every third day I'd push it forward and backward with my Courier, they were never able to ticket it ;) i tried that with my nissan, my little raced out rice rocket. i would only drive it on thursdays out to alameda or all the way out to ontario for the street races, and during the week i would push it forward one space, back one space, but someone called the cops and i got a note that said it was an "eyesore" and they were "tired of looking at it on the street every day." the day before i sold it i did a 150 shot NOS burnout all the way down the block :D i hate my neighbors.


oh, and yes, Scotto owns Van Lingen. he has since before he became mayor. they use the same charge acct at the torrance NAPA store, they have for years.

[RTicUL8]

I had knee surgery three months ago and found out that Percocet makes me puke.
===
My worst pain is from Migraines, but I found out the cause of them - at least for me:
Caffeine withdrawal symptoms.
If I drink a daily soda, or coffee, etc. and then stop, I will almost always get a migraine 1-3 days later.
I have proven this consistently.

====

[Ronbo]

I accidentally stepped into a gopher hole and tore my left calf at the ankle while loading firewood into my truck. Having to operate the clutch to get out of the woods was pure joy.
The worst part is the 'POP' sound was vividly recorded in my noggin just in case I need a reminder. :laugh:

-Ron

[XJ&CHZ4ME]

I was in a bad motorcycle accident as a teenager and was hit from another rider after I was thrown from my bike. I ended up with a broken collar bone, compound break in my right femur, dislocated knee, broken and fractured ribs on both side, broken tail bone and internal bleeding. Now if you can imagine the pain I was in at the time...it was really not too bad due to being in shock, but once I got to the hospital...HOLY HELL!!! Since my tail bone was broke I could not comfortably lie on my back, since my collar bone and ribs were broke I could not lie on my side or my stomach..and everything would stick to my ozzing road rash. There is not a whole lot you can do about a tail bone other then just let it heal, and the rest took forever to heal up and then having rehab after that....it sucked nutz. Not to mention I lost the rest of my summer riding season. :thumbdn: So after that I decided 4 wheels was the way for me to go from then on out...and I have been wheelin for the past 14 years!

[Ben H]

I was in a bad motorcycle accident as a teenager and was hit from another rider after I was thrown from my bike. I ended up with a broken collar bone, compound break in my right femur, dislocated knee, broken and fractured ribs on both side, broken tail bone and internal bleeding. Now if you can imagine the pain I was in at the time...it was really not too bad due to being in shock, but once I got to the hospital...HOLY HELL!!! Since my tail bone was broke I could not comfortably lie on my back, since my collar bone and ribs were broke I could not lie on my side or my stomach..and everything would stick to my ozzing road rash. There is not a whole lot you can do about a tail bone other then just let it heal, and the rest took forever to heal up and then having rehab after that....it sucked nutz. Not to mention I lost the rest of my summer riding season. :thumbdn: So after that I decided 4 wheels was the way for me to go from then on out...and I have been wheelin for the past 14 years!

Yep that sucks.

[woody]

I'm married w/kids.

no need to elaborate.

:D


:cheers:

[MudDawg]

Motocrossing in the early 70's = both knees torn up and fixed repeatedly....living hard and working hard = arthritis in my hands and shoulders....my knees lock up when they get cold and i get cramps in my hands so bad I have to pry my fingers open.....crawling trusses in attics in my early years in the A/C biz, I have bone deformities in my knees...kneeling for more than a few seconds at a time is out of the question...thank God I quit having migraines. Knock on wood....

[Cornflake]

4 years and a half ago i had my left foot run over by a forklift. the back turning wheels, solid rubber and all that counterwieght. big hyster lift used at the lumber yard i delivered for. needless to say i've had 7 surgeries, including fusion of my mid foot and fusion of a few toe joints. not ever going to be a foot model that is for sure. so i'm dealing with work comp. b.s. and getting ready for settlement time. was rated 82 percent disabled. in constant pain. i take prescription ibuprofen every once in awhile 800 mg that i can have 3 times a day. 200 mg celebrex when needed. got myself off of vicodin and various narcotics myself after having to take them too long. now i take 60 mg of cymbalta 1 time a day which is for depression but for me is mainly used for chronic pain and it works, plus it makes me feel better about the whole situation. 31 years old and hurting everyday is ghey but that's life and my former employer is having to pay out their a$$es so that's good. plus more time with the jeep and my real kids :)

[Fred]

To quote Tom(Old man) Houston: "What doesn't hurt, doesn't work" after a certain age.

One of my most memorable pains was when a dentist stuck the needle into the nerve instead of near the nerve for the novacaine. Talk about lightning bolts in the brain. I didn't hit him but it was close.

Another time while I was a chef I grabbed a pie tin off the charbroiler that had been on there for 10 minutes covering a well done steak. My finger tips were so numb that I didn't feel it until I had held the plate for enough time to burn the piss out of them.

I was hit by a car when I was a kid. Compound fracture right femur. That didn't hurt, comparitively.

Tolerance to pain is not always good. I had a pain in my right elbow. Doc said tennis elbow and gave me 800 mg ibuprofen. For the next eight years I just took ibuprofen. Then my kid was born, and I realized that I was having trouble picking him up and holding him because two of my fingers were numb. It was cubidal tunnel syndrome, and after surgery, I only had 40% of nerve function left.

For my last birthday my wife gave me a card with a very attractive young woman on the front with her breasts covered only by her arms. The wording said: "I hear guys your age like a little T and A" The inside showed a bottle of Tylenol and Advil. Very true.

Fred

[davidb0986]

One of my most memorable pains was when a dentist stuck the needle into the nerve instead of near the nerve for the novacaine. Talk about lightning bolts in the brain. I didn't hit him but it was close.
Same thing here when I had my wisdom teeth pulled...yes, I was awake for the whole thing. Most pain doesn't bother me too much, but I'll pass on ever feeling anything close to that again.

[Ralph]

What a bunch of whiners. Y'all are giving me a huge pain in the ass. :rolleyes:

[XJ Dreamin']

What a bunch of whiners. Y'all are giving me a huge pain in the ass. :rolleyes:

It sounds like Frank and the guys in the sauna down at the lodge. "Yeah. I got that, too."

[98XJSport]

I was in the middle of a root canal when I found out that the dentist only numbed my jaw down to the bone. Found out when he started drilling into the bone to set the anchor screws. This was most of an hour into it, was to sick of it to have him pull all the clamps and junk out of my mouth to re-shoot. Just grin and bear it, but the most painful part was the $700+ bill.

[goodburbon]

Occasionally I get headaches that will shut me down completely. Excruciating shooting and throbbing pain originating at the base of my skull that makes it hurt to do anything including breathing. I take asprin and ibuprophen for these and just try to hold absolutely still for the 40 or so minutes until it subsides.

I have a bulging disc or 2, my knees will collapse occasionally, I have a touch of arthritis. I don't need meds for any of those things though.

Acute pain I usually laugh at. Cuts, bruises, are commonplace and don't affect me much. I had an electric fan bite my thumb to the bone the other day, put on a band aid and kept working. I did break my collar bone and it hurt pretty bad, it was pointy and felt like a hot knife stabbing me through the shoulder anytime I moved. Couple that with nightmares that had me diving out of bed and I didn't sleep well for a few weeks. I actually took pain meds for the first 3 days so I could rest, then I was ok with it.

Worst pain I can remember was an appendicitis. Apparently it burst. Exploratory surgery was needed. Impossible for me to stand up straight.


So basically 'm a puss.

[XJ&CHZ4ME]

I forgot to add to my previous post...I fell down and broke my butt...it now has a crack running from top to bottom..no pun intended!! OK, sorry about that one, it was just too easy!! I know, I know....I wont quit my day job.

[XJ Samo]

I have the worst pain 5-90 can atest to this pain too...


My wife the kids and I live under the same roof as the mother in law.

[Gerr]

I have arthritus in bot hips knees and ankels as well as both hands and wrists. it gets to the point some days where I cant get out of bed without agonizing pain ten times worst than when my apendix burst. most days i muttle through on a few alieve and my anti-inflamitories but basicly any time I go have fun I pay for it for about a week.

[85xjwoody]

For constant pain I would have to say my knees and left wrist. Had my arm ran over and broke at the elbow, forearm, and my wrist. Ever since then my wrist hasn't been the same.
Knees are just plain shot. Kneeling is out of the question.

For the instant type of pain I would have to say breaking my ankle. I was running through the backyard at the grandparents house which shares a property line with a field. Happen to step into a hole and totally screw up my ankle. Broke in three different spots along with almost ripping my foot off!
I waited until the next day to go to the hospital after convincing myself I couldn't walk without falling down.

Kim

[Beej]

I just got off the phone with a buddy I grew up with and we were talking about this topic, the whole pain thing that is. I remember when he wiped out on his bmx when we were about 12 and skinned his leg from the ankle to the hip as well as rashing both of his hands and one arm most of the way up the shoulder. He was a mess of complaints about that for weeks, but he just said the worst pain associated with it was the fact that he had wiped out right in front of a group of the neighbourhood girls... :D

He reminded me though, that his worst pain ever was when he kicked a box out of anger in my parents basement when we were 15. He wound right up and let 'er rip, not knowing that the box held about 300lbs of my Dad's lead scuba diving weights. The box didn't budge one bit, instead, his foot shattered, breaking eleven bones in the foot, two in the ankle and broke the fibula right near the end. I remember he had various casts for the entire summer. Right through the entire skateboard season... :D

[8Mud]

I have arthritus in bot hips knees and ankels as well as both hands and wrists. it gets to the point some days where I cant get out of bed without agonizing pain ten times worst than when my apendix burst. most days i muttle through on a few alieve and my anti-inflamitories but basicly any time I go have fun I pay for it for about a week.
I've been in the hospital twice for over using over the counter pain meds. Both times for ulcers caused by the meds.
Because of the arthritis I'd prophylacticly take an aspirin substitute daily. The pain meds. the Doctor was giving me had way too many side affects. Over the counter sure doesn't means safe or without side affects.
I've learned to limit my activity to accommodate my abilities. I'll accept some moderate pain, but have learned to stop before the swelling starts up. It it swells, I pack it in and elevate. I've learned to rein in my will to accommodate my disabilities.
Try DMSO, one of those things that used to work for Grandma, that Doctors have forgotten about. It really helps some people, they even make it combined with a anti inflammatory that is used as a cream or salve.