WHO WANTS A HYD ROLLER CAM!!!!

ALL THE NUMBERS ARE IN...........

This is what it will take to own a roller cam.
there must be 6 orders Before J"oe @ Roto Faze" will start.
Joe said that there must be at least 50% down on all 6 cam blanks

The price from Joe is: $485.25 for the Cam Blank.


The first Cam grind shop that Joe recommended is in California

I rarely post up herd so i figured that there would be some of you that rarely post up on street performance and don't now what were trying to do.

It originally started in the Yahoo Strokers Group and here in street perform ace section.

A year later we have every thing figured out but who will be willing to buy this Vary Price, But Strong, Cam.
There has never been a Roller cam for AMC/JEEP inline six........The only thing stopping it from becomeing a reality is........ for 6 people.... or more to step up for the first batch to be made.

The first cam grinder shop that Joe recommended is in California


"SCHNEIDER CAMS" There # IS 619-297-0227, Take to Jerry.
Price.... ......... $450

East coast(Florida) Then Crane was the
recommended cam grind shop.

Crane Cam's: talk to Chase Night at 386-252-1151 ext.#402

Cam Grind $468.00, (any profile) Chrome molly push rods "$80.00",
V8
Hyd Roller lifters ( set of 12)...Chase said that he would give us
the good guy discount $337.00..... .. is actual words were
the "installer discount"!



Flash

4.0 Roller Cam?

ALL THE NUMBERS ARE IN...........

This is what it will take to own a roller cam.
there must be 6 orders Before J"oe @ Roto Faze" will start.
Joe said that there must be at least 50% down on all 6 cam blanks

The price from Joe is: $485.25 for the Cam Blank.


The first Cam grind shop that Joe recommended is in California

I rarely post up herd so i figured that there would be some of you that rarely post up on street performance and don't now what were trying to do.

It originally started in the Yahoo Strokers Group and here in street perform ace section.

A year later we have every thing figured out but who will be willing to buy this Vary Price, But Strong, Cam.
There has never been a Roller cam for AMC/JEEP inline six........The only thing stopping it from becomeing a reality is........ for 6 people.... or more to step up for the first batch to be made.

The first cam grinder shop that Joe recommended is in California


"SCHNEIDER CAMS" There # IS 619-297-0227, Take to Jerry.
Price.... ......... $450

East coast(Florida) Then Crane was the
recommended cam grind shop.

Crane Cam's: talk to Chase Night at 386-252-1151 ext.#402

Cam Grind $468.00, (any profile) Chrome molly push rods "$80.00",
V8
Hyd Roller lifters ( set of 12)...Chase said that he would give us
the good guy discount $337.00..... .. is actual words were
the "installer discount"!



Flash

That's very reasonable. When I researched this awhile back, I found one cam grinder that catered to older, vintage, stuff. $800.

..but you're not done there. You need to find a hardened distributor gear. You need to get the head machined for something like a Jessel roller rocker (although the MOPAR roller rockers would eliminate the need for guide plates).

If I did this (my wallet is much thinner than when I seriously considered this before) I'd get it to match stock OEM lift and duration (however that integrates in a roller grind) and go to 1.7 ratio rockers. You would retain the overlap needed to keep any sniffer IM stuff intact since we don't have EGR valves.

I imagine that you would save about 40 hp in variable losses between the cam and the rr's. If you can weigh in at under $2000 total ..it's about right.l

geeaea said:

That's very reasonable. When I researched this awhile back, I found one cam grinder that catered to older, vintage, stuff. $800.

..but you're not done there. You need to find a hardened distributor gear. You need to get the head machined for something like a Jessel roller rocker (although the MOPAR roller rockers would eliminate the need for guide plates).
The Roller Lifters are for a V8 AMC and there is a little trick to getting them in a 4.0 but that allowed for a direct fit with NO BLOCK MODS what so ever,........including after market guide plates or rocker arms.Roller rocker arms would be a choose not a requirement.
As far as the dist gear gos,If you are planing on a "High Pressure/Volume oil pump" then YES.

If I did this (my wallet is much thinner than when I seriously considered this before) I'd get it to match stock OEM lift and duration (however that integrates in a roller grind) and go to 1.7 ratio rockers. You would retain the overlap needed to keep any sniffer IM stuff intact since we don't have EGR valves.

Actually you could have more lift and the same duration. = more power for the same i/m test! with out the extra cash for a 1.7 ration rockers

A neither nice thing about a custom cam, is that there is some thing like 1700 Roller cam profiles to choose from, instead to 1 or 2.

I imagine that you would save about 40 hp in variable losses between the cam and the rr's. If you can weigh in at under $2000 total ..it's about right.l

Click to expand...

Cam Blank/gear making $485.25+ cam grind ( round, to cam lobes)Between $450-468+ push rods(if needed)$80+Hyd Roller lifters ( set of 12)... $337.00=

My math comes up with $1273. too $1368 this didn't include option such as roller rocker arms

Flash

Harland Sharp has roller rockers for the AMC V8 ..which uses the identical "bridged" rocker. They allegedly fit under our valve cover. Unfortunately, unless you find them on sale (at the time I checked, there were some available @ $200/V8set) ..they're $600 for the set and you'll have spares for two cylinders. You'll also have to figure the guide plates and any longer term issues that they may present. Machining the head to accept something like a Jessel roller rocker shaft installation would probably eliminate the problem without any added cost (you'll have the head off anyway).

The Mopar "married" roller rockers aren't racing grade ..although I've had them on my 4.0 for over 70k miles without issues in daily driving. They too will cost you over $600 for the set and there will be a spacer to raise the valve cover to allow them to fit.

So the overall price for this would be:

$485 for the blank
$450 to get it ground
$337 for lifters
$80 for pushrods

$1352 total not including Gasket set and time to install!


What will the gain over a regular performance cam be that makes it worth the extra $1000?

goodburbon said:

So the overall price for this would be:

$485 for the blank
$450 to get it ground
$337 for lifters
$80 for pushrods

$1352 total not including Gasket set and time to install!


What will the gain over a regular performance cam be that makes it worth the extra $1000?

Click to expand...

#1 The new oil formula( that is killing our performance cam way to soon) will not cause a roller cam to go bad.(all car manufacture as of 2007 have when to a Roller Cam desine......For emission/power and the oil problem)...........I sure wish Chy would have add a roller instead of pulling the plug on the 4.0

#2 longer life of the cam.

#3 more power potential then a regular Flat Tappet (More Torque and Power form the same profile instead of buying a cam for more torque or more power.) LESS COMPROMISE!

I'm sure there is more reason too!

Flash

You must be an import tuner. Only a sportcompact tuner would pay $1300 for a cam.

Flash said:

#1 The new oil formula( that is killing our performance cam way to soon) will not cause a roller cam to go bad.(all car manufacture as of 2007 have when to a Roller Cam desine......For emission/power and the oil problem)...........I sure wish Chy would have add a roller instead of pulling the plug on the 4.0

#2 longer life of the cam.

#3 more power potential then a regular Flat Tappet (More Torque and Power form the same profile instead of buying a cam for more torque or more power.) LESS COMPROMISE!

I'm sure there is more reason too!

Flash

Click to expand...

#1 - True. Since roller tappets have to deal with less friction than flat tappets; as long as you've got sufficient lubricant for the roller bearings, it's good.

#2 - Probably true. I've not seen any SxS test results, but the idea is sound.

#3 - Sorry, but including "from the same profile" in that sentence makes it invalid. The advantage to a roller tappet cam is that you can run more aggressive opening and closing ramps - for the same event timing, you can get more "area under the curve" and potentially more "valve fully open" time. However, this isn't from having "the same profile" - you're changing the ramps (if nothing else) significantly.

I seem to recall someone somewhere saying that SB MOPAR tappets are the same size as AMC I6 tappets - if this can be confirmed, then using SB MOPAR tappets is a possiblity. This means at least one OTS part, and reduced "one-off" spending (which stacks up in a huge hurry! Although, I don't fully understand why cam "blanks" would cost so much - unobtanium core, perhaps?)

And, does that price include a bronze dizzy gear? You'll probably be wanting one, if you use a steel cam blank.

Eh - I just re-read your #3 again, and it's not as invalid as I thought. Still, "peak torque" and "peak power," while not mutually exclusive, are somewhat opposing goals (you tend to sacrifice one for the other - since peak torque depends upon low-RPM efficiency, and horsepower peaks on high-RPM.) Still, you won't be running "the same profile" - even if you use the same valve timing events, it would be silly to do so with the same ramps - since you're suddenly not limited by the edges of the flat tappet.

Honestly I think this is one of those things that is totally cool and innovative but is not justified by the cost unless you have a very specific use in mind for it IE: drag racing. Nontheless, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor as if the manufacturers see a demand for such a system then they might start producing systems at a much lower cost to the end user. We'll cross our fingers and toes.

jeeperjohn said:

Honestly I think this is one of those things that is totally cool and innovative but is not justified by the cost unless you have a very specific use in mind for it IE: drag racing. Nontheless, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor as if the manufacturers see a demand for such a system then they might start producing systems at a much lower cost to the end user. We'll cross our fingers and toes.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say just drag racing, tho. By having more "valve open time" (increasing the area under the curve for the camshaft plot,) you can move more air - especially at lower RPM, which is where we live.

I'd have to crunch some numbers, but I'm sure the gains in low-end torque would come close to justifying the cost (although cam blanks should still be rather lower, y'ask me. You can buy ground cams for less than that - with lifters and springs!)

"Valve float" for us is a non-issue - we don't wind it up that fast. Besides, I don't think it was an issue for Barney Navarro - and he ran at Indy with a modified AMC Six.

I've got to get a few things done, then I should make sure I've got Dyno2000 loaded on my new laptop. It can account for the difference in open/closing ramps between flat tappets and rollers (I think...) so it should at least give us an idea. I'll keep this tab open - once I've finally got it done (should take a bit,) I'll let you all know, and you can email me for copies of the sims if you're interested.

Jon I have grate respect for you and your knowledge, and don't have a problem at all being corrected when out of bounds.

If you have any good idea on how we could incorporate the Chry small block Roller Lifter into the 4.0L, I would love to hear any idea that you have...............on here, PM, or off.........

This is why We decided to go with the AMC V8 Roller Lifters instead of the less expensive Chry V8s
First of the the Chys version has a plate the set at the base (Or top) of the lifter to hold the lifter in place and keep it form turning in the bore. Then there is a thin spring like metal plate that is bolted down and holds the paired lifters from rotating.
This would require some sort of machine of the block, in a vary tight area of the block, that would add to the cost of this project.........Probably a lot more then the price difference between the AMC and the Chy.

With the AMC V8 lifter it has a Flat strap of metal that ties the the paired lifters together, all tho this T-bar(Metal strap between the paired lifters) has to be modified, there is no modification to the block what so ever...........which make it a lot more simpler install.

The lifter bore diameter is the same for both lifters(Chy/AMC)

The intake valve open and the ext. valve closing are the most important I/M criteria. so if you can get more lift and duration with in the I/M window,(int open/ext.close degrees being the same) then there will be more power for the same torque.
I HAVE NOTHING THE BACK THIS UP. But from what i have learn about cam shafts in my years, this would make sence......NO?

Jon i would love to see the spec form you desk top dyo for the roller cam.
I tried to do this awhile back and realize i need to under stand the affect of my changes better before i could make an accurate attempt.

The biggest part price of the "cam blank" is the "Dist. gear" and the price of the material. For what ever reason AMC decided to us the most odd ball gear depth and angle...........Witch made it even more difficult to find someone to cut the gear let alone a decant price for it.


Flash.

Flash said:

The lifter bore diameter is the same for both lifters(Chy/AMC)

The intake valve open and the ext. valve closing are the most important I/M criteria. so if you can get more lift and duration with in the I/M window,(int open/ext.close degrees being the same) then there will be more power for the same torque.
I HAVE NOTHING THE BACK THIS UP. But from what i have learn about cam shafts in my years, this would make sence......NO?

Jon i would love to see the spec form you desk top dyo for the roller cam.
I tried to do this awhile back and realize i need to under stand the affect of my changes better before i could make an accurate attempt.

The biggest part price of the "cam blank" is the "Dist. gear" and the price of the material. For what ever reason AMC decided to us the most odd ball gear depth and angle...........Witch made it even more difficult to find someone to cut the gear let alone a decant price for it.


Flash.

Click to expand...

I'll have to gin up the tests in a bit - I'll probably just put them in a folder at WiP and make the link available here (easier than emailing everyone, and I don't have to watch traffic so much.)

It would make sense that the AMC lifters are also the same size - I just happen to see more SB MOPAR lifters than AMC.

And, I'm somehow not surprised (actually) about the dizzy gear being something silly - even though the old joke goes "AMC = All Makes Compatible." Hell, RENIX uses a Ford dizzy (even though I'm still trying to find out what it was originally for.)

As I recall, the lifter bay (can't really call it a "valley") stops and becomes open space at the top of the lifters - so as long as there is enough projection of the lifter to make the tie bar work, I'd think that anything that fits down the hole should serve. Again - that's on RENIX - but I know that ChryCo revised the casting to make it lighter, which means that the lifter bore depth shouldn't have chnaged much (if anything, I'd think it would have decreased slightly.)

I'll have to look into both approaches for the lifters, and see what can be done. Honestly, if the SB MOPAR units have a lower cost, I'd rather be able to use them (since all of the off-roader's money gets eaten up with tyres and axles anyhow...:doh: ) I'm fairly sure I've seen "tie bar" SB MOPAR lifters - so I'll have to see where I saw that. I know what you're talking about, tho - it's what we used to call a "spider plate", where spring fingers on the plate would fit into a slight recess in the tappet to keep it from spinning. It's been a while, most of the roller lifters I've seen were tied in pairs by a rigid tie bar.

I'll get on those sims in a bit - I've got to call the health insurance people and swear at them some more before they're shut (they keep banker's hours on the East Coast.)

5-90 said:

I wouldn't say just drag racing, tho. By having more "valve open time" (increasing the area under the curve for the camshaft plot,) you can move more air - especially at lower RPM, which is where we live.

I'd have to crunch some numbers, but I'm sure the gains in low-end torque would come close to justifying the cost (although cam blanks should still be rather lower, y'ask me. You can buy ground cams for less than that - with lifters and springs!)

"Valve float" for us is a non-issue - we don't wind it up that fast. Besides, I don't think it was an issue for Barney Navarro - and he ran at Indy with a modified AMC Six.

I've got to get a few things done, then I should make sure I've got Dyno2000 loaded on my new laptop. It can account for the difference in open/closing ramps between flat tappets and rollers (I think...) so it should at least give us an idea. I'll keep this tab open - once I've finally got it done (should take a bit,) I'll let you all know, and you can email me for copies of the sims if you're interested.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was just using drag racing as an example of a narrow focus. I am anxious to see just how much of an improvement is possible with a roller setup.

Flash said:

The biggest part price of the "cam blank" is the "Dist. gear" and the price of the material. For what ever reason AMC decided to us the most odd ball gear depth and angle...........Witch made it even more difficult to find someone to cut the gear let alone a decant price for it.

Flash.

Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance but why can't you just use a different distributor and use a more common cam blank? Or maybe a custom distributor shaft?

I know this isn't really a "scientific" test, but here's the link to two sims I'd just done:

www.geocities.com/JeepI6Power/242_Roller_Sim.rar.exe

It should be a self-extracting .rar file, so you shouldn't need an archiver utility to download and open the thing. The files within (there are two) are both Acrobat .pdf files, and you will need Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to view them (Acrobat Reader can be had at www.adobe.com for free, and you should have that anyhow.)

I'm sure some of the numbers are a bit off, but the only thing I changed between the two sims was changing the lifter type from "Hydraulic Flat" to "Hydraulic Roller" - which makes the opening/closing ramps more aggressive.

JeeperJohn - that was something that was tickling at the back of my mind. Davis has their DUI (Davis Unified Ignition) setup using, I think, a Chevvy distributor for the AMC six. Also, since the distributor gear can be easily removed by driving out a roll pin, there's nothing really stopping us from getting a more common gear. Since it's a Ford dizzy on earlier models, the shaft bore should not be a great issue (at least, that's my first thinking. Why for do you think I'm collecting all these parts?:shhh: )

Anyhow, you'll note that there is a small - but significant - raising of the torque curve - without actually moving it in the RPM band (moving the power curves back and forth is done by changing valve timing. Moving power curves up or down is done by changing valve lift and opening/closing ramps.)

Anyhow, go ahead and look at those two sims, and tell me what you think. They were done using a stock block, #7120 head airflow profile, and a stock RENIX cam (I think - I didn't bother to remember.) Since the roller cam will be a "clean sheet" design, I could start playing around with iterative testing and other profiles - if you're going to maximise something, max that sucker out!

jeeperjohn said:

Forgive my ignorance but why can't you just use a different distributor and use a more common cam blank? Or maybe a custom distributor shaft?

Click to expand...

This would require more research and development You could have a custom distributer gear made to fit the stock dist.(witch would be the cheapest way)

Our focus on this project: to make a Hyd Roller Cam "the simple way".(the less machine work and parts, the better!)

Flash.

Flash said:

This would require more research and development You could have a custom distributer gear made to fit the stock dist.(witch would be the cheapest way)

Our focus on this project: to make a Hyd Roller Cam "the simple way".(the less machine work and parts, the better!)

Flash.

Click to expand...

Yeah. So work from an AMC I6 cam blank with, say, a Cevvy distributor drive gear cut into it. Use a Chevvy distributor. Even if that's extra machine work, the patterns for the Chevvy gear should be easier than for the AMC, the Chevvy distributor apparently fits without too much work - and if that comes apart, take a Chevvy dizzy gear blank and ream it out to fit the AMC dizzy shaft instead of the Chevvy (they're fairly close anyhow, I think.)

The extra expense of doing that would probably still let the project come in lower than the cost of the AMC cam blank - which is what we're after. A distributor (or a distributor gear) is not that difficult to change...

5-90 said:

I know this isn't really a "scientific" test, but here's the link to two sims I'd just done:

www.geocities.com/JeepI6Power/242_Roller_Sim.rar.exe

It should be a self-extracting .rar file, so you shouldn't need an archiver utility to download and open the thing. The files within (there are two) are both Acrobat .pdf files, and you will need Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to view them (Acrobat Reader can be had at www.adobe.com for free, and you should have that anyhow.)

I'm sure some of the numbers are a bit off, but the only thing I changed between the two sims was changing the lifter type from "Hydraulic Flat" to "Hydraulic Roller" - which makes the opening/closing ramps more aggressive.

JeeperJohn - that was something that was tickling at the back of my mind. Davis has their DUI (Davis Unified Ignition) setup using, I think, a Chevvy distributor for the AMC six. Also, since the distributor gear can be easily removed by driving out a roll pin, there's nothing really stopping us from getting a more common gear. Since it's a Ford dizzy on earlier models, the shaft bore should not be a great issue (at least, that's my first thinking. Why for do you think I'm collecting all these parts?:shhh: )

Anyhow, you'll note that there is a small - but significant - raising of the torque curve - without actually moving it in the RPM band (moving the power curves back and forth is done by changing valve timing. Moving power curves up or down is done by changing valve lift and opening/closing ramps.)

Anyhow, go ahead and look at those two sims, and tell me what you think. They were done using a stock block, #7120 head airflow profile, and a stock RENIX cam (I think - I didn't bother to remember.) Since the roller cam will be a "clean sheet" design, I could start playing around with iterative testing and other profiles - if you're going to maximise something, max that sucker out!

Click to expand...

So doesn't that support my statement that the Hyd Roller Cam will give you more bottom end as well at top end(with in reason of course) then the stock cam.....................Or I'm i missing something here.

Flash.

Flash said:

So doesn't that support my statement that the Hyd Roller Cam will give you more bottom end as well at top end(with in reason of course) then the stock cam.....................Or I'm i missing something here.

Flash.

Click to expand...

More - but it's still going to depend on the cam grind. And, it will give you some more for the reasons I stated (more valve "open" time, and more "fully open" time available.)

A roller cam isn't the end-all/be-all of performance - there are still a number of factors that need to be considered - but it's a good start on getting things running the way you want them to. And, a decent roller will help to offset the decline in organometallic content of "modern" engine oils, so that's also a help.

I'd like to run more iterative testing to see what can really be done - and to maximise low-end grunt (which is really what we're after here, isn't it? ) but I've got a few other things to get done first. It's Friday, and that's my housework day (gets it all out of the way before the week-end, and gives me the week-end if I end up needing more time for some reason.)

5-90 said:

More - but it's still going to depend on the cam grind. And, it will give you some more for the reasons I stated (more valve "open" time, and more "fully open" time available.)

A roller cam isn't the end-all/be-all of performance - there are still a number of factors that need to be considered - but it's a good start on getting things running the way you want them to. And, a decent roller will help to offset the decline in organometallic content of "modern" engine oils, so that's also a help.

I'd like to run more iterative testing to see what can really be done - and to maximise low-end grunt (which is really what we're after here, isn't it? )YES but I've got a few other things to get done first. It's Friday, and that's my housework day (gets it all out of the way before the week-end, and gives me the week-end if I end up needing more time for some reason.)

Click to expand...

That sounds way to familiar too me too (Housework Honey Doe's)

When you get the numbers let me now and i will run them on mine, just to see what they are at 1500 (sense mine starts at 500 lower then your) ................or maybe, if i get enough time, learn how to us my iterative part of mine.

Flash.

Flash said:

That sounds way to familiar too me too (Housework Honey Doe's)

Flash.

Click to expand...

Nah - just the usual weekly stuff. Wash laundry, clean the bathroom, and all that sort of thing. The advantage to working from home is that you're home. The disadvantage to working from home is that you're home.

I have a pair of link bar roller lifters for a small block mopar in my parts closet . Only problem is they are solid and no hydraulic. I am not sure if they make linked hydrualic roller lifters for a small block mopar. The ones Flash mentioned that have the retaining tray in them is the late model OEM lifters. It would be nice if some kind of retaining tray could be used as you could use OEM roller lifters which should cost considerably less. But I agree with the space bieng an issue in the I6 block.

IIRC Small and Big Block Mopars have a .904 lifter diameter which is the same as the XJ motor correct?