Internal Cage Guys

[SeanP]

How is everybody attaching the cage to the floor of their XJs? I am starting to put together ideas for the next project that will keep me off the trail for 6 months ;)

Diapers are your friend.

SeanP

[M. Lake]

Give this a look. It is not mine, but a fellow that is from my state jeep group.

ftp://arizonaxj@arizonaxj.com/creepers/cage/

His site.

http://www.cherokee4x4.com./

And the rig he is building.

CREEPRS http://mail4.cableaz.com/~theon/projects/creeprs/index.html

[KarmirXJ]

they are called "load spreading plates" most of the time people use a 6"x 6" 3/16 flat square plate. weld the cage tube on top. drill the 4 corners of the plate and bolt it to the floor. some people go as far as welding the plate in, IMO thats a better way to attach but depends on the person.

[Beezil]

there are ten points in my cage.

six of them tie into that hat section "uber frame" and spreads the load over an apprx. 36"x42" area, and the other ones that are at the a and b pillar locations go to the floor, but are supported/bolted underneath by frame tie ins....

I suggest building framerail "standoffs" to tie into your a b and c pillars......you will only need a 12" long stand-off to go from the area the tube meets the floor to the frame rail.

[JeepFreak21]

You going to make Moab Sean?

[SeanP]

Originally posted by Beezil
there are ten points in my cage.

six of them tie into that hat section "uber frame" and spreads the load over an apprx. 36"x42" area, and the other ones that are at the a and b pillar locations go to the floor, but are supported/bolted underneath by frame tie ins....

I suggest building framerail "standoffs" to tie into your a b and c pillars......you will only need a 12" long stand-off to go from the area the tube meets the floor to the frame rail.


BJ, you got pics of this for a better reference.

Billy, I don't think we will make it to Maob this year unless we rent a pimped RV that can tow the heep. Emma and Marni need some creature comforts.

thanks

SeanP

[XJZ]

Beez:

What are stand offs? I'm guessing an "L" bracket w. diagonal tube (? :dunce: ) to reinforce from the underside and sandwich the floor. Sounds like a great idea, is this right?

[Kaczman]

Here's a couple shot of how I tied mine to the floor.

http://home.att.net/~j.kaczmarski/wsb/media/123450/site1047.JPG

http://home.att.net/~j.kaczmarski/wsb/media/123450/site1032.JPG

-Jon

[SeanP]

Thanks, Jon. Did you weld the plate footers on the A & B pillers or are they just bolted to the floor? Is there another plate underneath that sandwiches the floor? Have you driven it yet? How is it getting in and out with the diagonal brace between the A & B?

thnks

SeanP

[MaXJohnson]

I've thought about mine a bit since install and have come up with a plan for next time (???).

Start out with an 1/8" plate, 6"X6", and radius each corner to 1/2" round and drill appropriate holes for mounting bolts. Also relieve the sharp edge all the way around the lower edges of the plate with a grinder. Clean up with a flat file.

Then take another 1/8" plate, 4"X4", and after radiusing the corners, sandwich it on top of the larger plate at a 45° diagonal. Weld the tube to this assembly and add a couple of small gussets to increase weld area.

This creates a base plate that is strong (1/4" thick), but gives a little around the perimeter and will lessen the chance of cutting through the floor panel. A further enhancement would be to change the 6"x6" plate to 6"X8" and bend a 2", 90° flap to butt against the rocker panel channel section (with additional fasteners).

My current B hoop ties into rock rails underneath. Any future build would have 1/8" plate brackets underneath angling to the frame rail. These could be attachment points for rock rails as well.

I prefer bolting to and thru the floor vs welding. I think the welded area adjacent to the plate would be prone to failure.

[Beezil]

just throwin out an opinion here....

I like 3/16" for foot plates, wether or not the feet are sandwiched.....

I think 1/8th is a bit too thin......

an untested opinion.........

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

I tied mine into the rock rails, which are permanently attached. I just added 1X2 1/4 inch channel between the legs of the rails, and bolted through. Really stiffened the chassis well.

Dan

[MaXJohnson]

Originally posted by Beezil
just throwin out an opinion here....

I like 3/16" for foot plates, wether or not the feet are sandwiched.....

I think 1/8th is a bit too thin......

an untested opinion.........

1/8" + 1/8" = 1/4" > 3/16"

Test it :D

[Beezil]

3/16 + 3/16 = 3/8 > 1/4.....

I'll win! :)

[Kaczman]

The plates are bolted through the floor to a 1/4" backing plate. I will be tying the backing plate into the subframe, I just haven't gotten to the underside yet. However, the seat mounts are tied to the cage and the floor at the tranny hump (welded) and original seat belt mounts (bolted). I doubt I'll run into metal fatigue/stress issues in the future, but we'll see....

I don't mind the diagonals at the doors, but my 5'-0" wife isn't too impressed. I think she'll change her mind when she realizes it will keep the rocks out of the cab.:D

-Jon

[FarmerMatt]

My rear plates extend across the shackle mounts & frame sections & are 3/16" thick. I used 4" wide plate. My other rear leg plate extends across the frame rail & up the side of the fender well. The B pillar is the same 3/16 plate & extends across the frame rail out close to the pinch seem. I used a hole saw to punch through the floor board under that floor plate & welded a support from the frame rail to the bottom of that plate. The A pillar is much the same as the B pillar except I used an existing hole in the floor board to weld the frame / cage gusset through. All plates & tubing are welded.

Frame Tie In (http://trellixff1.business.earthlink.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/FrameTieIns.jpg&target=tlx_new)

[MaXJohnson]

Originally posted by Beezil
3/16 + 3/16 = 3/8 > 1/4.....

I'll win! :)

The two plate sandwich I'm talking about is above the floor pan. An additional backing plate would be below the floor pan. The whole point of the double layer above is to soften the corners (1/8") of what amounts to a 1/4" foot plate. I'll have to draw this up cause I think it's a pretty good idea if the extra effort can be justified.

P.S. Everytime Matt posts a pic, you can see why he's such a magazine pop star. I'm still wondering when you'll get your 15 minutes of fame

[FarmerMatt]

If his rig ever left the garage & was see actually outside wheeling it might.

Matt

[SeanP]

Originally posted by FarmerMatt
If his rig ever left the garage & was see actually outside wheeling it might.

Matt


Cheap shot, fawker!

My rig will leave the garage at some point in the next 12 months I swear. I keep thinking I will work on my rig at night, but by the time I help marni with emma, I am exhausted.

Thanks for the posts. Matt, do you have a link to all your cage photos? Also, does anybody have Richard's link? I am just going to steal ideas willy-nilly from y'all and claim them as my own, k?

SeanP

[FarmerMatt]

Actually that was meant for Beezil, but what the heck... 2 birds with one stone. :)

Matt

[Jes]

Actually I think that dig was intended for Beezil. ;)

Jes

Edit, oops, was posting the same time as Matt!

[FarmerMatt]

Oh... Here's the link to the site where my pics are. If you want I can take some more detailed pics of the mounting plates. I've got all the interior stripped out of the rig right now.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/index.html

[SeanP]

Thanks, Matt. Yeah, any close ups of where the A & B pillars meet the floor would be cool.

SeanP

[TN William]

Jon,

Glad to see someone else has realized the benefit of tying the seat mounts into the cage. Since I tossed the factory console I made two "saddles" to cross the transmission hump and tied into my cage on each side. I feel a lot safer with the cage, seats, and harness all ine unit.

[Kaczman]

Yeah, the tranny hump is a pain to deal with, but I'm glad I did everything at once. I also got rid of the heavy ass stock leather seats and mounts... My pig is heavy enough already.
http://home.att.net/~j.kaczmarski/wsb/media/123450/site1048.JPG

-Jon

[4ward]

Jon, you ever going to have that thing done? SeanP, you ever going to have that thing done? Beezil, you ever going to have that thing done?

This is sounding like web wheeler central anymore :D

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by M. Lake
Give this a look. It is not mine, but a fellow that is from my state jeep group.

ftp://arizonaxj@arizonaxj.com/creepers/cage/

His site.

http://www.cherokee4x4.com./

And the rig he is building.

CREEPRS http://mail4.cableaz.com/~theon/projects/creeprs/index.html

I'm not yet impressed with that one, need to see some pics of FINISHED work. And where do you get reverse-cut 5.38s for a D44 anyway? He never gave me a straight answer to that one when asked. :rolleyes:

[Beezil]

I just picked up a set of 5.38's for a RC44 where I go for all my driveline parts....

National drivetrain in Chicago.

ask for Kevin ethelridge.

tell him bj mcdonald sent you.

[Kaczman]

WunTunn-
My junk is looking so good on jackstands, I've chosen to leave it there. That's why I'm making it lighter, I don't want to stress the stands:D I'm still hoping for Moab, but when my fingers get cramped from typing, I find it harder to get any work done in the garage. Let's see some pics of the top secret rear/ body design.
-Jon

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Kaczman
Yeah, the tranny hump is a pain to deal with, but I'm glad I did everything at once. I also got rid of the heavy ass stock leather seats and mounts... My pig is heavy enough already.
http://home.att.net/~j.kaczmarski/wsb/media/123450/site1048.JPG

-Jon

KACZman you have any shots on how you tied the tubes to the pillars?


sure like to see more pics of that cage... that looks sweet!:eek:

[Kaczman]

Uhhh, what tubes to what pillars? The cage isn't tied into the A, B, or C pillars. Now, when the roof is crushed beyond repair, I'll cut it off and run it as is.
-Jon

[4ward]

Jon, you'll just have to show up to Moab to see it. :D

Sean

[Goatman]

SeanP, here's the link to my cage pics: http://fototime.com/inv/1BC14166A317E93

My B pillar hoop is bolted through the floor, with 3/16" plates on both sides. I heard that it's a good idea to use different size plates on the top and bottom, so there isn't a shear line between the plates, so that's what I did. I didn't bother to pull up the carpet, but you could. The C pillar hoops, both inside and outside, are welded to the floor. The frame is close to the inside of the wheel wells there, so you can catch the top of the frame with the C pillar plates. It would also be simple to bolt through in that location, if you used the couple of inches of floor between the frame and the wheel wells, maybe even using an angle plate on the bottom to catch the side of the frame.

The key to the strength of my cage is that it's also tied into the A, B, and C pillars, not just mounted to the floor, making the strength of the floor plates a little less critical. I decided to stick with the unibody theme, and keep everything tied together, looking for maximum rigidity with minimum weight.

Happy diaper changing, :D

[XJguy]

PUV kits are made to be welded in. Before I began making them I researched quite a bit on which way is best for attatching the roll cage....there was no definite answer. Going with the rules outlined by organized race/competition sanctions is IMHO the best way to go without having to go out and wreck several roll cage equipped XJs in crash tests. But in this case even that was split some organizations required bolting others welding. I originally wanted to make bolt-to-the-floor cages but after speaking to a few race car fabricators in person they convinced me that there is nothing better than welding it in. I think the key really is to have many attatchement points triangulation and spreader bars on your cage, this will spread the load so much that even if one leg were to actually punch through it would not go far and its movement would not jeopardize your safety. Not to mention the structural support such a design lends truly makes the cage part of the chassis, which is ideal.

KACZman, nice cage similar to mine in many ways.

XJguy

[SeanP]

thanks for the link, richard. you have some damn fine fab work there. hope to have a nice, finished rig soon.

seanp

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Kaczman
Uhhh, what tubes to what pillars? The cage isn't tied into the A, B, or C pillars. Now, when the roof is crushed beyond repair, I'll cut it off and run it as is.
-Jon

oh my bad... those looked like they where some how tied in. kinda seamed weired at first, thats why I asked.

anyway nice cage!:D

[macgyvr]

I will put together a full post with info and pics of my cage, but since we're talking cages, this cage was built two weeks before my trip to moab last week. Right now it just covers the drivers compartment as I'm not sure what is going to happen with the back body on the jeep this winter.....but its about damn time i got a cage....

http://pics.montypics.com/SewerBoss/2003-08-14/1060877280_matt1.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/SewerBoss/2003-08-14/1060877339_matt2.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/SewerBoss/2003-08-14/1060877361_matt3.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/SewerBoss/2003-08-14/1060877398_matt4.jpg

The cage is welded to 4x6 3/16th floor plates and sandwhiched on the bottom side, from the bottom the cage is tied into the plated frame. You can also see in the one pic where we tied the cage into the shoulder belt mount for the stock seat belts. We also caged in the mounts for the seats to make it as strong as we could make them. Since these pics were taken roll bar padding was added. For most of my wheelin in moab and colorado last week I managed to not smash my noodle on any of the monkey bars.

mac 'nearly 2.5 years in the making' gyvr

[Beezil]

Nice Mac. when Sewerboy told me you used DOM, I almost fell of my chair!

can you take pics of your frame tie-ins? I've been asked how I did mine before, and I'm too lazy to take a picture of it.

so where the pics from moab? what did you run?

I'm expecting a full report on a non-tech thread if you haven't started one already.

[MMIXJ]

Originally posted by Goatman
here's the link to my cage pics: http://fototime.com/inv/1BC14166A317E93


thanks for sharing...

unless i overlooked it, i don't see a photo of how/where the cage attaches up front near the dash? that seems the awkward point in an XJ internal cage...

thanks in advance.

[Goatman]

Originally posted by MMIXJ
thanks for sharing...

unless i overlooked it, i don't see a photo of how/where the cage attaches up front near the dash? that seems the awkward point in an XJ internal cage...

thanks in advance.

Ah ha, gotcha... :)

The internal A pillar down bars attach to the A pillars.......the bars stop at the dash. A strip of metal is attached to the length of the A pillars, and the cage tubes are welded to those strips. I did it this way because my Dad has trouble getting in already, and he goes with me a lot (74 with a knee replaced), so I didn't want to hinder egress. Also, I have a partial external cage, and the exterior A hoop down bars are attached to the side of the cowl, as well as to the rock rails and tied to the frame.

[Beezil]

I think one of the key ingredients to goatfish's cage is the b-pillar upper seatbelt tie-in.

the first time I saw it, I slapped my forehead and said "now, why didn't I think of that?"

I think that little feature is pretty darn important, since the b-pillar has to do a lot of work when its called upon......

[macgyvr]

and i copied that tie in with my cage on the bpillar....

beezil moab and more cage pics as soon as i get unpacked....


mac 'spent evening scraping bugs off the f150' gyvr

[MMIXJ]

Originally posted by Goatman
Ah ha, gotcha... :)

The internal A pillar down bars attach to the A pillars......
Also, I have a partial external cage, and the exterior A hoop down bars are attached to the side of the cowl, as well as to the rock rails and tied to the frame.


wow, sounds interesting...
so next (newbie) question: the external A hoop "down bars" attach to what? through the cowl into the engine compartment and end up where?

thanks in advance (i'll check the photos again more closely).

[Goatman]

The external A hoop goes through the top of the fender, then behind the fender down to the rock rail. It is attached to the side of the cowl, just underneath the top of the fender, near the upper door hinge. There is also a bar that runs from that point forward, underneath the top of the fender, and bends down to the end of the front bumper. You can see it clearly in the pics, but I think you have to go all the way to the bottom pics.

If you drive over uneven terrain in your XJ with your hand around the top of the door and the roof (just put your elbow on the door with the window down), there is a surprising amount of flex that you can feel between the door and the roof. On my rig now, there is no flex AT ALL between the door and the roof. I think this is because of how everything is tied together. One of my main goals was overall rigidity as well as protection in a rollover.

I was tired of welding up A pillar body cracks. :) :)

[JJacobs]

I didn't use any backing plates. The A- and B-pillars go to 'L' brackets that sit flat on the floor, and also run up the inside of the doorsill a couple inches. The C-pillar goes to the top of the wheeltubs via a 12" 3/16 formed plate that goes up the tub from the floor, bends over the top to where the interior sidepanel was, then straight up across the sheetmetal gap.
And- the D-pillar goes right to where the sheetmetal D-pillar used to be on a 1/8" formed cap.
It's only been upside down once but has flopped about 20 times, no deformation of the mounts so far :)