4,000 rpm?

[XJ Dreamin']

Anybody drive a CVT lately? That Nissan commercial is driving me crazy - the one with the chick who wants to put on her lipstick but can't because the tranny won't shift so her lame-a$$ girl-toy boyfriend has to make shifting noises. Aside from the general stupidity of the whole thing and the frustration at being unable to fulfill the urge to slap them both silly, what's with the rpm? In the commercial the vehicle accelerates to highway speed as the rpm gradually rises from idle right up to 4,000. Are they saying that that thing is going to cruise around at 4,000rpm all the time, or is that commercial bs? Wouldn't the rpm go up and then fall gently back down to cruise at 2,200? Why 4,000?

The only CVT I'm familiar with was in the combine the farmer used to harvest the fields around our house. I read something that tried to say that snowmobiles have CVTs but ours just used a single variable pulley to put tension on the drive belt. It wasn't a CVT. If you didn't break the track free you'd burn symmetrical divots in the belt.

I don't know...CVT is fine. Not knocking' CVT, but what's with that commercial? am I just out of the loop on this one?

[98XJSport]

Guess it depends on the vehicle. My celica cruises comfortably at 4K. But it does seem that if it is shifting up in any manner that the revs should drop? I don't know enough about the technology to make a real educated guess.

[MogifiedXJ]

Anybody drive a CVT lately? That Nissan commercial is driving me crazy - the one with the chick who wants to put on her lipstick but can't because the tranny won't shift so her lame-a$$ girl-toy boyfriend has to make shifting noises. Aside from the general stupidity of the whole thing and the frustration at being unable to fulfill the urge to slap them both silly, what's with the rpm? In the commercial the vehicle accelerates to highway speed as the rpm gradually rises from idle right up to 4,000. Are they saying that that thing is going to cruise around at 4,000rpm all the time, or is that commercial bs? Wouldn't the rpm go up and then fall gently back down to cruise at 2,200? Why 4,000?

The only CVT I'm familiar with was in the combine the farmer used to harvest the fields around our house. I read something that tried to say that snowmobiles have CVTs but ours just used a single variable pulley to put tension on the drive belt. It wasn't a CVT. If you didn't break the track free you'd burn symmetrical divots in the belt.

I don't know...CVT is fine. Not knocking' CVT, but what's with that commercial? am I just out of the loop on this one?
I just think it's rediculous...How lazy and pussified can this society get that we can no longer shift gears but don't even want to feel the vehicle shift gears either...I am knocking cvt.

[XJ Dreamin']

Guess it depends on the vehicle. My celica cruises comfortably at 4K. But it does seem that if it is shifting up in any manner that the revs should drop? I don't know enough about the technology to make a real educated guess.

It does depend on the vehicle. There are a lot of variables: displacement, torque, gear ratios, wheel size. Is your Celica auto or manual? What is your shift point for each gear? What is your final gear ratio? I'm not trying to harass you - I really am interested. Cruising at 4,000 would make me nervous, but then I'm an old Mopar guy. With a high output 360, cruising at 4,000 rpm in Overdrive means your doing something over 90 mph.

Actually, what bothers me about the commercial is this: I would expect the RPM to rise quickly off the line and then fall back to cruise as the vehicle speed increases. The CVT may be continuously variable, but it still starts with a high gear ratio and finishes with a low gear ratio. That has to mean that it would go to a high rpm that would fall smoothly as the ratio is lowered. Of course, with the computer they've got controlling that thing, I guess anything is possible.

[XJ Dreamin']

I just think it's rediculous...How lazy and pussified can this society get that we can no longer shift gears but don't even want to feel the vehicle shift gears either...I am knocking cvt.

Believe me, I'd take manual any day. I hold a healthy level of contempt for automatic systems in general. I always seem to end up using the system outside the design parameters. Besides, CVTs have historically required a low torque environment. Nissan talks proud about what they've done to make this one work, including three tranny fluid coolers!. To my mind, the more it takes to make a system work, the more you're going to fork over in repairs.

What bothers me about the commercial is the rpm curve. As I've said, I would expect it to rise quickly and then drop smoothly as you aproach cruise speed. Am I right, or is the commercial right?

[Dirk Pitt]

I just think it's rediculous...How lazy and pussified can this society get that we can no longer shift gears but don't even want to feel the vehicle shift gears either...I am knocking cvt.

The point of a CVT is not to reduce the shift shock (like Nissan is advertising) it's just an added bonus.

A CVT will change "gears" to keep the engine in the power band (peak torque) because that's where peak efficiency is. If the motor is most efficient at 4000 rpm, that's where the CVT will keep it.

4000 rpm really is nothing for a engine of that caliber.

[Menzenski]

Cruising at 4,000 would make me nervous
I would never cruise at that RPM in my XJ or F-250, but the best MPG my dad's 4-cyl Subaru has ever acheived has been after cruising at about 3,800 RPM in fifth for a few hours. It made me a little nervous, since I was used to the 4.0 in my XJ, but the car was quite happy at that RPM.

[MogifiedXJ]

The point of a CVT is not to reduce the shift shock (like Nissan is advertising) it's just an added bonus.

A CVT will change "gears" to keep the engine in the power band (peak torque) because that's where peak efficiency is. If the motor is most efficient at 4000 rpm, that's where the CVT will keep it.

4000 rpm really is nothing for a engine of that caliber.
That's also the purpose of a manual transmission...

[XJ Dreamin']

The point of a CVT is not to reduce the shift shock (like Nissan is advertising) it's just an added bonus.

A CVT will change "gears" to keep the engine in the power band (peak torque) because that's where peak efficiency is. If the motor is most efficient at 4000 rpm, that's where the CVT will keep it.

4000 rpm really is nothing for a engine of that caliber.

True enough, but imagine the computing power needed to meet variable torque demands while maintaining a single rpm. Acceleration demands more torque than cruising. Is the best torque RPM band the same as the most efficient RPM band, or will I be a slave to the CVT computer, limited to the torque available at the whatever RPM band the computer decides is most efficient? I guess I'll have to test drive a Maxima. Not that I'd ever buy one.

[XJ Dreamin']

That's also the purpose of a manual transmission...

Touche'

[Starboard M]

I have only drivin the Ford Fusion version of the CVT. I dont think it ever went up to 4000 rpms, although I wasnt getting on it very hard.
Personally I didnt like it because you kept waiting for the shifting. When it doesnt shift, I feel weird.
Although, it does make putting my lipstick on much easier:wierd:

[Dirk Pitt]

Is the best torque RPM band the same as the most efficient RPM band,

Yes.

[98XJSport]

It does depend on the vehicle. There are a lot of variables: displacement, torque, gear ratios, wheel size. Is your Celica auto or manual? What is your shift point for each gear? What is your final gear ratio? I'm not trying to harass you - I really am interested. Cruising at 4,000 would make me nervous, but then I'm an old Mopar guy. With a high output 360, cruising at 4,000 rpm in Overdrive means your doing something over 90 mph.



My celica is a 6 speed. Stock final gear is 0.725. I shift comfortably around 5K in all the gears, or run it right up to 8K if im trying to get there in a hurry. I can cruise in 4th ak 4K and be doing just under 60.

It took a lot of getting used to, my last standard was an 87 4.2 YJ and now my 4.0 XJ auto we all know how they like to rev.

[XJ Dreamin']

Yes.

Really? I can't see how fuel efficiency and high torque go together. But then, if the engine is designed to run at 4,000 I suppose you don't have a choice.

I suppose it's just my old fashioned brain. I'm having trouble giving myself over to the CVT computer. But then, it took me a long time to understand Mach, so it may take a while before I can accept driving everywhere at a single RPM. Does it idle at 4,000 then? If 4,000 is most efficient, why ever let it fall? OK, now I'm just being spiteful. These new fangled ways get my hackles up. Just ignore me.

[XJ Dreamin']

My celica is a 6 speed. Stock final gear is 0.725. I shift comfortably around 5K in all the gears, or run it right up to 8K if im trying to get there in a hurry. I can cruise in 4th ak 4K and be doing just under 60.

It took a lot of getting used to, my last standard was an 87 4.2 YJ and now my 4.0 XJ auto we all know how they like to rev.

8k?! Good Lawd Ahh Mitey! I hope that things got needle bearings and a scavenger pump. Don't take offense: remember I'm an old timey muscle car guy, but it seems to me, if you need 8k to get moving on the street, you need a bigger motor.

Sorry. Didn't mean to jump on you. The 8k startled me. I wouldn't expect to see that unless the motor had been outfitted to handle it. The last manual I drove that had any guts was a Bimmer. I just picked 4,000 to shift, but I'm sure I was babying it excessively. I'm just going to have to go test drive a Maxima - just to settle it for myself, once and for all.

[Sarge]

8k?! Good Lawd Ahh Mitey! I hope that things got needle bearings and a scavenger pump. Don't take offense: remember I'm an old timey muscle car guy, but it seems to me, if you need 8k to get moving on the street, you need a bigger motor.

Sorry. Didn't mean to jump on you. The 8k startled me. I wouldn't expect to see that unless the motor had been outfitted to handle it. The last manual I drove that had any guts was a Bimmer. I just picked 4,000 to shift, but I'm sure I was babying it excessively. I'm just going to have to go test drive a Maxima - just to settle it for myself, once and for all.

LOL! Yeppers you were babying the Beemer. Import motors typically see high rpms way more often. My bike (a Honda) hits 8-9K on a regular basis and can be pushed to 10K and is considered a lower rpm motor. My wifes Eclipse doesn't really even begin making power until 3000 and it gets fun from there on.

If you drive an import like you drive American cars it will feel gutless. The motors are made for more rpms. Most import motors (cars at least) are horsepower not torque. American motors even high horsepower ones have higher torque numbers than most imports.

Sarge

[98XJSport]

Celica GT-S 1.8-liter double overhead cam (DOHC) 16-valve 4-cylinder with Variable Valve Timing and Lift with intelligence (VVTL-i)
Displacement: 1.8 liters (1,796 cc)
Bore x Stroke: 82.0 mm x 85.0 mm
Compression ratio: 11.5:1
Induction system: Multi-point EFI
Ignition system: Electronic, with Toyota Direct Ignition system (TDI)
Horsepower: 180 hp @ 7,600 rpm
Torque: 130 lb.-ft. @ 6,800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual - standard
4-speed Sportshift electronically controlled transmission (ECT) -available


Its a little bastard but with high compression and built for high revving horsepower. Its a nice contrast to the XJ. Quick car, not what I would call fast. But fun.

[XJ Dreamin']

Celica GT-S 1.8-liter double overhead cam (DOHC) 16-valve 4-cylinder with Variable Valve Timing and Lift with intelligence (VVTL-i)
Displacement: 1.8 liters (1,796 cc)
Bore x Stroke: 82.0 mm x 85.0 mm
Compression ratio: 11.5:1
Induction system: Multi-point EFI
Ignition system: Electronic, with Toyota Direct Ignition system (TDI)
Horsepower: 180 hp @ 7,600 rpm
Torque: 130 lb.-ft. @ 6,800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual - standard
4-speed Sportshift electronically controlled transmission (ECT) -available


Its a little bastard but with high compression and built for high revving horsepower. Its a nice contrast to the XJ. Quick car, not what I would call fast. But fun.

I believe you, I believe you. The last 16-valve 4-cyl I saw was the Pontiac Grand Am Quad-4, so you'll excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical. If Toyota's version is holding up, go for it. I'm just an old man set in my old ways.

[XJ Dreamin']

LOL! Yeppers you were babying the Beemer. Import motors typically see high rpms way more often. My bike (a Honda) hits 8-9K on a regular basis and can be pushed to 10K and is considered a lower rpm motor. My wifes Eclipse doesn't really even begin making power until 3000 and it gets fun from there on.

If you drive an import like you drive American cars it will feel gutless. The motors are made for more rpms. Most import motors (cars at least) are horsepower not torque. American motors even high horsepower ones have higher torque numbers than most imports.

Sarge

Well, in my defense, it belonged to a friend. We were going on a little road trip. When he picked me up he said he was tired and could I drive. On the way out of town I was sitting in the left turn lane at a red light. After the left turn, at the next block was another light. He says, "You'll have to goose it to make the next light." Now I had never made that light, but then my ride at the time was a '72 Fury III. I get a green, start out and catch 2nd. He says, "No, goose it. That's what it's for." So, without any other experience with that vehicle I picked 4,000. At that, it hit 4,000 so quickly I almost couldn't keep up with it. I'd swear I hit 3rd, 4th, 5th in little more than 4 seconds. I caught that light on the yellow at 55mph - in one block from a left turn - in a 30mph zone. Fortunately, there were no cops.

But then, import motors are typically smaller and need higher rpm to make any power at all. When we were shopping for the wife's van I insisted on the 6-cly. At one point the salesman said, "Well, the 4-cly makes almost the same horsepower as the 6-cly." I said, "That's not a good thing." I didn't trust ChyCo to make a high output 4-cyl that would hold up.

Golly. I hope this doesn't degenerate into an American muscle vs. import debate ;)

Let's not even get into FWD vs. RWD http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/7095/new3fh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[GSequoia]

You should go ride a bike..

Took me awhile to get used to my buddy's CBR 600

Rev it to 13,000 rpm, it don't care ;)

[XJ Dreamin']

You should go ride a bike..

Took me awhile to get used to my buddy's CBR 600

Rev it to 13,000 rpm, it don't care ;)

Well, a bike I would expect. After all, small motor equals high rpm, as I said. Is that 13,000 four-stroke or two-stroke?

[GSequoia]

600cc four stroke.

[XJ Dreamin']

600cc four stroke.

Copy that. I haven't messed with bikes for 25 years.





How old does that make me?!

wildest I ever tried to sit on was a 400cc Hodaka. Only once.

[non-stick]

Celica GT-S 1.8-liter double overhead cam (DOHC) 16-valve 4-cylinder with Variable Valve Timing and Lift with intelligence (VVTL-i)
Displacement: 1.8 liters (1,796 cc)
Bore x Stroke: 82.0 mm x 85.0 mm
Compression ratio: 11.5:1
Induction system: Multi-point EFI
Ignition system: Electronic, with Toyota Direct Ignition system (TDI)
Horsepower: 180 hp @ 7,600 rpm
Torque: 130 lb.-ft. @ 6,800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual - standard
4-speed Sportshift electronically controlled transmission (ECT) -available


Its a little bastard but with high compression and built for high revving horsepower. Its a nice contrast to the XJ. Quick car, not what I would call fast. But fun.

Got the same motor in my Corolla xRS. Power actually really kicks in around 6K and pulls like mad until the read line @ 8200. When I get on it I usually end up shifitng from 4th to 6th around 90+ and then coast back down to "reasonable" speed... And I still get 34 mpg average....

Just so I'm not totally off topic, it cruises at 4k all the time on the highway. In fact that is the Toyota recommended shift point.

[XJ Dreamin']

So, what I'm getting out of this is that the CVT Maxima's engine will be around 1.8L. Like I said - CVT lends itself to low torque systems.



http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/7095/new3fh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/) fair warning :laugh3:

[Dirk Pitt]

So, what I'm getting out of this is that the CVT Maxima's engine will be around 1.8L. Like I said - CVT lends itself to low torque systems.



http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/7095/new3fh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/) fair warning :laugh3:

It's actually a 255 hp, 252 ft-lb 3.5L VQ engine.

And guess where the peak torque is?

You guessed it 4400 rpm.

[XJ Dreamin']

It's actually a 255 hp, 252 ft-lb 3.5L VQ engine.

And guess where the peak torque is?

You guessed it 4400 rpm.

Bottom line: I suspect, instead of ramping up steadily with speed (as in the commercial), the rpm should go quickly to 4,000 and stay there until you let go of the gas pedal. My old school mindset felt like it should ramp and then fall, but it looks like they've got it set to ramp up quickly and hold.

I've wondered of late why they don't just go to a speed pedal instead of a throttle pedal. A full time interactive cruise control. Request a speed and the computer will give it to you when it is damn well good and ready.

Given that my XJ has the smallest engine I've ever owned, 3.5L still does not excite me greatly, although I admit 252 ftlb is pretty good for such a small engine :)