my pappys gun

[GrimmJeeper]

my dad gave me this on my 18th bday (my mom immediately took it and hid it from me lol), and told me he'd tell me the story behind it on my 21st. he passed away before i turned 19 so i never found out. she just gave it back to me as a fathers day present and all i can get from her about it is "he came home with it after a weekend with the dune buggy guys" this was in the late 70s, right after i was born.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/IMG_0678.jpg

these are the only markings i can find on it

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/IMG_0679.jpg

im assuming its some kind of replica, and i know its a cap and ball gun, but thats the extent of my gun knowledge :D can anyone help me figure out what it is i have here? my dad apparently "found" it in the desert and brought it home. i just had it cleaned after my mom gave it to me (it was really crusty with sand and rust) but the friend i had clean it knows nothing about older guns.


any help would be appreciated!

[TrueBlueXJ]

Sorry to hear he passed, and it sucks you're left without the story behind the gun. You might try taking it to a gunsmith and seeing what they have to say. You're right though, it's probably a replica, and the "story" behind it is probably more personal than anything. Who were these "dune buggy guys?" Ask your mom who his friends were and maybe track them down. If they were there, they might be able to fill you in.

[GrimmJeeper]

Sorry to hear he passed, and it sucks you're left without the story behind the gun. You might try taking it to a gunsmith and seeing what they have to say. You're right though, it's probably a replica, and the "story" behind it is probably more personal than anything. Who were these "dune buggy guys?" Ask your mom who his friends were and maybe track them down. If they were there, they might be able to fill you in.

thanks for the condolences, i miss him around this time of year, but its been 10 years its not so hard anymore. ive talked to his "dune buggy guys" and none of them will tell me what happened, all i can get from them is "we found it thats all you need to know" most of them are reluctant to talk about it because the driver of his race boat died on this same wheeling trip, flipped the buggy without a seat belt and landed on a rock head first.
the only person that would tell me anything about the gun is the wife of the guy that died in the dune buggy accident, she is a close friend of the family, and about an hour ago she told me they told her they found the gun laying half buried next to the rock he landed on, just the butt sticking out. they offered it to her but she wouldnt take it, thats how my dad ended up with it... so i guess thats the story behind it. i'd still like to know what it is ya know?

[RichP]

It is also a real possibility until proven otherwise that it is NOT a replica. Only a gunsmith or appraiser can know for sure just don't get taken with 'Oh, it's replica made by so and so from spain and I'll take it off your hands for $50'...
Back then they didn't always put serial numbers and proof markings on them. From your cell phone pics :D it's a colt 1860 Army w/brass receiver which would make it a .44 cal 8 round.

[XJ Eric]

Heck, either way I'll give you $50 for it!

Sorry just kidding. Very nice piece replica or not.

[Ben H]

Replica or authentic, you have a nice looking gun to pass on to your next generation.

Have you ever fired it?

[churky89]

If it was me I wouldn't take the gun to a gunsmith....take the pics and show them....

Is there anyway to contact Colt and send the pics to them...surely they would know something...just from the pics....

I agree keep it for future generations....

[OverlandXJ]

As stated above...take some good digital pics and send to Colt asking what you have.

[XJLafonda]

If you can contact Colt, than they would know. Colt has a collection of every gun they've ever put into production, and with a little searching could find out it authenticity or not. If not that route, see if you can't find a local gun smith, or just a gun club with really knowlegeable people. Get multiple opinions, and eventually you'll find out. If it's a replica, it looks great and would make an awsome show piece, if it's the real thing...you've got quite a treasure on your hands.

[RTicUL8]

...From your cell phone pics :D it's a colt 1860 ...


Doesn't it say 1850?

Colt was founded in 1847.

[mecompco]

Doesn't it say 1850?

Colt was founded in 1847.

Colt patented the fixed barrel/rotating cylinder idea. A '51 Navy (.36 cal) would have a more squared-off look. The firearm pictured is a '60 Army (.44 cal). I would expect an original Colt revolver to be in much worse condition if it was buried in the desert for any period of time.

[RichP]

If it is a replica it should be traceable with a serial number. A lot of cap and ball revolvers were converted to cartridge guns, required removal of the cylinder and inserting a loaded cylinder to reload, some had loading gates installed. It should also be checked to see if it is a firing replica, back in the 70's non-firing replicas were mantelpiece items made out of pot metal. Quick check is to see if the nipple vent holes go all the way thru to the cylinders and if the barrel is plugged or not. If it is a replica or original I would not fire it, not even a test fire.
It has been many years since I had one in my hands so I don't remember particulars but you might want to remove the grips and see whats under there. Check all the cylinders too. Some old timers kept 'burying money' in one cylinder both at burying money and in the case of a single action revolver a reminder to not load all cylinders so the one under the hammer does not get bumped accidently shooting oneself in the foot or leg. That wedge in the front is what holds the cylinder in, guesstimating from the pic it looks like a 6 shot not an 8 which brings up more questions. I don not actually remember the army model being an 8 shot in .44, thems pretty big holes for that small cylinder, even the big hog leg of a walker colt was only a 6 shot... if it was .36 or smaller I could see 8 fitting.

[RichP]

Colt patented the fixed barrel/rotating cylinder idea. A '51 Navy (.36 cal) would have a more squared-off look. The firearm pictured is a '60 Army (.44 cal). I would expect an original Colt revolver to be in much worse condition if it was buried in the desert for any period of time.

Not always, I remember they recovered a shipment of S&W .44 Russian break top revolvers from a ship wreck back in the 70's that were being shipped to russia, which is why the called them russians, the tzar really liked them, the wreck was in the late 1890's or so. They were in pristine condition and brought somewhere around $50K per piece. I remember 12 in the case for some reason and I think they recovered 4 cases, over $2 million in 70's dollars was a good find.
If it had been buried and then just recently resurfaced it might be in decent shape, except for the grips maybe. Any engraving might have been abraided off by the sand over that long a period of time too. Think 100+ years in a very slow tumbler. They also got away from the brass receiver and went to case hardening due to cost and durability, brass stayed around due to it's highly polished look, chrome was not around yet and silver and gold plating was still in the future, brass however could be polished and engraved. Silver and gold plus other precious stuff was relegated to inlays. Stuff I have not thought about in many years...:D
I used to build black powder guns, rifles, derringers, flintlocks and percussion from components, I'd buy the locks, barrels, etc, 80% cut stocks and build from there, not revolvers though, never had the tooling for that plus the fed frowned on it, too easy to switch in mid build from blackpowder to cartridge once you have a working receiver/cylinder combination.

[mecompco]

Colt Navies and Armies are all 6 shots. There was no need to keep an empty chamber as the hammer rested on a pin between nipples on cap and ball revolvers such as this. The empty chamber is required on "Peacemaker" type cartridge revolvers as the hammer rests against the primer on a loaded chamber and can be made to fire by a blow to the hammer spur. I don't think ANY Colt revolvers (with the possible exception of pepperboxes) were 8 shots.

PS Not being an expert in desert-found relics, I will digress to more knowledgeable people. There are no FEDERAL laws against the making of black power revolvers.

[RichP]

Colt Navies and Armies are all 6 shots. There was no need to keep an empty chamber as the hammer rested on a pin between nipples on cap and ball revolvers such as this. The empty chamber is required on "Peacemaker" type cartridge revolvers as the hammer rests against the primer on a loaded chamber and can be made to fire by a blow to the hammer spur. I don't think ANY Colt revolvers (with the possible exception of pepperboxes) were 8 shots.

PS Not being an expert in desert-found relics, I will digress to more knowledgeable people. There are no FEDERAL laws against the making of black power revolvers.

There are if they take cartridges.

[mecompco]

There are if they take cartridges.

Well, that's not what we were discussing. And it is not against the law to make your own cartridge firearms, either, for personal use. If you intend to go into business, then you must acquire the proper licensing. Since 1986, is has been illegal to make machineguns for personal use. You may still make short barreled shotguns/rifles, pen guns (Any Other Weapon, in BATF speak), and suppressors, AFTER the proper form has been approved by the BATF and the proper tax paid ($200 for SBS/SBR and suppressors, $5 for AOW). Prior to the GCA of '86, a non-felon over the age of 21 could legally make their own machinegun by filling out the same form and paying the $200 tax. These taxes were created in the GCA of 1928, prior to that, there were no limitations.

[RichP]

Well, that's not what we were discussing. And it is not against the law to make your own cartridge firearms, either, for personal use. If you intend to go into business, then you must acquire the proper licensing. Since 1986, is has been illegal to make machineguns for personal use. You may still make short barreled shotguns/rifles, pen guns (Any Other Weapon, in BATF speak), and suppressors, AFTER the proper form has been approved by the BATF and the proper tax paid ($200 for SBS/SBR and suppressors, $5 for AOW). Prior to the GCA of '86, a non-felon over the age of 21 could legally make their own machinegun by filling out the same form and paying the $200 tax. These taxes were created in the GCA of 1928, prior to that, there were no limitations.

Off hand I can think of one recent one, guy from Mass built a .22 cal cell phone that fires 4 rounds by pushing the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons, one round at a time. He's in a federal pen right now, or was last I heard and it was just a 'concept' design that he took to find backers for to legally produce it. BATF has NO sense of humor, but I bet the idea got sucked up by the intel community pretty quick, course maybe he's now another 'carbine williams' building them in prison. You may be right but it can be destructivley expensive to prove your point. Look at what they did to randy weaver.
As of 1986 there are NO new full auto or class III devices in the system, only the existing stocks that were in private or dealer hands when the law changed, I don't remember the exact cutoff. Around 84 or 85 I paid $250 for a mac-10 and another $250 for the factory supressor plus $400 for the tax on both. When the law went into effect I resold them back to the dealer for $3,500. Not bad for only owning them for 2 months, 5 minutes on the firing line equaled 5 hours at the reloading bench. Several of my friends had HK92's and 93's with the 'kit' uninstalled, it was perfectly legal till you put the parts in and it became a class III, the kit was like $90 or $120 bucks and sold over the counter. There are alot of those out there, the sporting goods store I worked the gun dept in sold at least 2 cases of those kits, mostly to people who did not even have the gun. I know that the guard took back my full M14 that I shot on the units team, until then I kept it at home with a 1000 rounds of match ammo right around then. Getting way off topic but then this IS naxja.

[mecompco]

Off hand I can think of one recent one, guy from Mass built a .22 cal cell phone that fires 4 rounds by pushing the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons, one round at a time. He's in a federal pen right now, or was last I heard and it was just a 'concept' design that he took to find backers for to legally produce it. BATF has NO sense of humor, but I bet the idea got sucked up by the intel community pretty quick, course maybe he's now another 'carbine williams' building them in prison. You may be right but it can be destructivley expensive to prove your point. Look at what they did to randy weaver.
As of 1986 there are NO new full auto or class III devices in the system, only the existing stocks that were in private or dealer hands when the law changed, I don't remember the exact cutoff. Around 84 or 85 I paid $250 for a mac-10 and another $250 for the factory supressor plus $400 for the tax on both. When the law went into effect I resold them back to the dealer for $3,500. Not bad for only owning them for 2 months, 5 minutes on the firing line equaled 5 hours at the reloading bench. Several of my friends had HK92's and 93's with the 'kit' uninstalled, it was perfectly legal till you put the parts in and it became a class III, the kit was like $90 or $120 bucks and sold over the counter. There are alot of those out there, the sporting goods store I worked the gun dept in sold at least 2 cases of those kits, mostly to people who did not even have the gun. I know that the guard took back my full M14 that I shot on the units team, until then I kept it at home with a 1000 rounds of match ammo right around then. Getting way off topic but then this IS naxja.

Ha ha--this IS off topic. With all due respect, I am afraid you are misinformed about the manufacture for transfer to individuals of ALL class III (Title II) items being outlawed by the GCA of '86, though. It applies ONLY to machineguns (or parts like autosears, coversion kits and the like--which under BATF rulings are themselves considered machineguns).

You can still legally manufacture AOWs (this is what the cell phone gun would be), as well as short barrelled shotguns/rifles and suppressors. As I said before, and this is what got the cell phone guy in trouble (and Randy Weaver, and the Branch Dividians (as weird as they were)), you MUST do the paperwork and pay the tax BEFORE making the gun.

I gave up my Title II manufacturer's license in the late 90s, but my ex-partner is currently still licensed (and is editor of the Small Arms Review magazine which is devoted mostly to Class III and Destructive Devices) and I do try to keep up with the laws.

[Sniggs]

H9694 Revolver
http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=257942

there

[GrimmJeeper]

H9694 Revolver
http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=257942

there

pretty close! but mine has a round barrel and the pivot point of the packing rod? is not as fancy. thanks tho sniggs.


and nice radio i listen every week :D

[ECKSJAY]

1860 Army all the way. Always wanted one of those. :)

http://www.iar-arms.com/images3/1860army.jpg

[GrimmJeeper]

1860 Army all the way. Always wanted one of those. :)

http://www.iar-arms.com/images3/1860army.jpg

nice! thanks! heres a few more hi res pics... i found another number on it now that im sober lol...
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/pappy%20gun/gun1006.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/pappy%20gun/gun1004.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/pappy%20gun/gun1003.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/pappy%20gun/gun1002.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w37/grimmpics/pappy%20gun/gun1001.jpg

thanks for your input guys i really appreciate it! :D please excuse the nasty fingernails, i was wrenchin today and didnt dig em out just washed up lol ;)

[dphillips]

I'm leaning towards replica, but who knows. In the desert things seem to last a long time because of the dry air. I'd deffinetly find someone who is a professional who can identify it. Colt should be able to look up any serial number that has ever left their facility. They have an exensive data base.

[jeeperjohn]

Well, that's not what we were discussing. And it is not against the law to make your own cartridge firearms, either, for personal use. If you intend to go into business, then you must acquire the proper licensing. Since 1986, is has been illegal to make machineguns for personal use. You may still make short barreled shotguns/rifles, pen guns (Any Other Weapon, in BATF speak), and suppressors, AFTER the proper form has been approved by the BATF and the proper tax paid ($200 for SBS/SBR and suppressors, $5 for AOW). Prior to the GCA of '86, a non-felon over the age of 21 could legally make their own machinegun by filling out the same form and paying the $200 tax. These taxes were created in the GCA of 1928, prior to that, there were no limitations.
In california they only want the criminals to have guns. That's why our friggin crazy a$$ politicians make it damn near impossible to own any decent sort of firearm. All these bleeding heart liberal types should be forced to spend an hour alone in Compton and then see if they think good citizens should be able to have guns!:gonnablow

[OverlandXJ]

Grimmy...spoke with my bud who owns a few antique guns. His recommendation is to write a handwritten letter to Colt with copies of pics and all markings detailed. They will respond as to the authenticity of this handgun.

This will be much more beneficial if it is authentic. You'll have record of authenticity on Colt letterhead making the gun more valuable ( by relieving doubt), in addition to giving you documentation for an insurance co in case of fire or theft.

[IGOCOMMANDO]

Colt does charge for that service. There are sites that will decode and date it for you free if it is in fact a real Colt. I had my model 1878 decoded that way. Although a cert. of authenticity looks cool hanging on the wall...
Nice looking piece by the way.