Fake bead locks can be good.

[Neil]

I just got back from the tire store where I had to have a valve stem replaced. A couple of weeks ago I went on the Swamp Lake run and had a rock gouge my rim. Not too bad I thought, what I didn't realize was that it had sheared the valve stem. Now there must have been a tiny piece of rubber holding it together untill today. Today I go out to the parking lot at school and find a flat. Bad news is the spare is at home.
My point here is that as useless as fake beadlocks seem they would have saved me all of this trouble, as the valve stem is located on the inside of the fake lock, therefore makiing it almost impossable to shear a valve stem off. Just my 2 cents

Neil

[Georgia Mike]

I just use flat valve stems from the speed shop. You can buy 'em at Jegs for around $13-$15 a set.

[Jump This]

Flat valve stems?

[Renegade Jpr]

I had flat valve stems before, they take forever to air down with though so I had regular ones put back on. The fake beadlock wheels are much stronger than a regualar steel wheel also.

[CameronB]

I just put on Unique 'street lock' rims, 50$ ea, only 12 more that standard. These are identical to Pro-comp's 'rock crusher desert lock', or whatever; at least from what I can tell.
The lips stick out a little further, but are a rolled reenforced edge, that looks much harder to bend.

[Handlebars]

Rubber valve stems can take a tremendous amount of abuse. Metal ones break easily and leak after a while anyways.

Just add a couple of spare valve stems and a cable type valve stem puller in your tire plug kit.

You do carry a plug kit and an air compressor, right?

Those two items and the skill to use them will be much more appreciated by your fellow 'wheelers on a trail run than streetlock wheels.

[SeanP]

Sorry, fake beadlocks are :rainbow: and will still find ridicule on the trail.

My cop friend just built his TJ and put 33s on Street Locks. Too bad, I really wanted to take him wheeling too.

SeanP

[Jump This]

Who would ridicule another wheeler just because of the type of rim they have...doesn't sound like anyone I would enjoy spending any time off-road with.

[CameronB]

Ditto...:cool:

[SeanP]

Sorry, I hang around the dark side too much. Most of the crew I wheel with place function over form. Things that cost money but dont add traction or functionality are extraneous IMHO. But to each his own.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by SeanP
Sorry, fake beadlocks are :rainbow: and will still find ridicule on the trail.

My cop friend just built his TJ and put 33s on Street Locks. Too bad, I really wanted to take him wheeling too.

SeanP

ah... no.. I think what you just said is gay...

I guess we're not "hard core" enough for you....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sometimes people get tired of bending the lip on wheels and dont want to run full beadlocks... (just FYI there not very safe on the street as a daily driver, because the bolts loosen up often and they are not DOT aproved) so go ahead and run full locks, just dont do it when im on the road.

[xj4rocks]

steet locks are dumb. if you're worried about the strength of a wheel spend that extra $$ for a better rim, not one with a goofy beauty ring with some bolt heads in it.

Beadlocks can loosen, if you use the right fasteners they loosen much less frequently. Any bolt can loosen. oh yeah and not DOT legal? show me. They're as DOT legal as every other rim out there.

[Economos]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
ah... no.. I think what you just said is gay...

I guess we're not "hard core" enough for you....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sometimes people get tired of bending the lip on wheels and dont want to run full beadlocks... (just FYI there not very safe on the street as a daily driver, because the bolts loosen up often and they are not DOT aproved) so go ahead and run full locks, just dont do it when im on the road.

Who gives a shit about what's "hard core"? It's about what's functional and what looks functional.

There's nothing in the DOT manual that states that beadlocks are illegal, they're simply not designed for highway use. And if you wanna get technical about it, Off Road Only has just come out with an SAE/ DOT approved beadlock wheel in 15" and 17" flavours. It's got a 1" thick ring and uses 24 counter-sunk stainless steel socket head bolts. They were in last month's 4Wheel & SUV.

[ChEwBaCcA]

If you want to know if a product is DOT legal, call the company and ask for a DOT file #. I can bet you most beadlock companies have not spent the coin to get them DOT cert. Some SS brake lines are not DOT...why? because if they are from a small company it costs $$$ to get them tested and filed.... like getting something UL'd

Chewy

[juicexj24]

I have to agree, each to his own. If someone wanted to spend the money, let them. I know a lot of guys who think this is stupied or that is dumb, but it really gets down to one thing. One guy has the money, the other doesn't. Simply...cut and dry.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Economos
Who gives a shit about what's "hard core"? It's about what's functional and what looks functional.

There's nothing in the DOT manual that states that beadlocks are illegal, they're simply not designed for highway use. And if you wanna get technical about it, Off Road Only has just come out with an SAE/ DOT approved beadlock wheel in 15" and 17" flavours. It's got a 1" thick ring and uses 24 counter-sunk stainless steel socket head bolts. They were in last month's 4Wheel & SUV.
http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/<-- there is the online magazine show me where it sais what you just said:rolleyes:

yes thick lips ARE functional..

"they're simply not designed for highway use":rolleyes:

thank you just just supported my comment:D I never said they are illegal, I said there not approved, you wanna get tichnical? keep reading.

Originally posted by xj4rocks
steet locks are dumb. if you're worried about the strength of a wheel spend that extra $$ for a better rim, not one with a goofy beauty ring with some bolt heads in it.

Beadlocks can loosen, if you use the right fasteners they loosen much less frequently. Any bolt can loosen. oh yeah and not DOT legal? show me. They're as DOT legal as every other rim out there.


ok, you give me the $ and ill go get it. you cant find a a wheel under $100 that can withstand abuse to the lip, but something that has a really thick lip wount buckle as easy...

you want me to show you proof?

http://www.rockin4x4parts.com/blue_torch.htm
scroll all the way to the bottom.[Therefore they are not D.O.T. approved, and are not street legal.

http://www.high-impact.net/wheels/beadlockinformation.htm
this quote came from this site. (big company that makes beadlocks)
"NO beadlock wheel is DOT approved. Including the military Hummer wheel. (The military is exempt) "

http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/allied_rockathon/page2.asp
these are ALlied beadslocks (major manufacture of beadlocks)
They are not DOT-Approved, so be sure to check all applicable laws BEFORE running these wheels on the street.

http://www.wt4wheeling.com/tech/beadlock.htm
There is some talk going around about beadlock wheels not being DOT approved for street use. While this is true that they are not DOT (department of transportation) approved there is not law saying that your wheels have to be DOT approved to run on the street

http://www.mrt-wheels.com/beadlockinstall.html
Note: Beadlock wheels are not D.O.T. approved.

http://www.alliedracingwheels.com/mounting.html
majority of NAXJA /PIRATE guys run these wheels:rolleyes:
Note: Beadlock wheels are not D.O.T. approved.

http://www.bm-offroad.com/wheels.htm
Trailready Bead lock Wheels are not DOT approved and are intended for Off-Highway Use.

these are pretty much ALL the major manufacturers that make beadlocks for rockcrawling and dragracingso before you guys start spewin crap out, search...

Originally posted by xj4rocks
oh yeah and not DOT legal? show me. They're as DOT legal as every other rim out there.
Now that I made you eat your words its your turn to proove it

you want more? I got the penal code book I can take out and look. just to lazy to do it:D



its not so much the wheel being legal or not legal its all about the wheel being safe. I never said beadlocks are bad... I will most definatly like to have a pair. But I will NOT put them on a daily driver, that would be very inconciderate toward you and others on the road at the same time... It will be a major pain in the ass to check each bolt (128 bolts total) every few trips here and there... YOU GET MY POINT?


EDIT: I really dont care what you guys say, I wheel hard and am safe on the road at the same time. So why the F#$% am I going through all this trouble to proove my point?:rolleyes:

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by SeanP
Sorry, I hang around the dark side too much. Most of the crew I wheel with place function over form. Things that cost money but dont add traction or functionality are extraneous IMHO. But to each his own.

From the threads I've been reading Sean, you haven't been doing much wheeling at all. At least if Neil got some street locks, they would actually see the trail. :D

I know you have been busy with your little one, but Neil has a point in regard to valve stem protection.

[WesternXJ]

Boy, did they get their pantys bunched. :rattle: :huh:

[KarmirXJ]

Oh and one more thing xj4rocks:

most poeple dont have $250+ per rim to go with beadlocks... most people run regular rims on the street. for me I cant afford beadlocks. SO in turn I get the streetlocks for daily driving + the extra lip on the side... If I did have more money I would of gotten regular rims for daily driving and then gotten some beadlocks with some offroad meats and stuck them in the garage. So everytime I go wheelin, I stick them on for the trip. that would be the best way to do it. No dought beadlocks are better offroad than streetlocks, im not argueing that.


running beadlocks on the street is like running a offroad buggy on the highway what do have that you want to proove?

[SeanP]

My beadlocks have a nice little DOT stamp right on them. Not only that, the US Government bought hundreds of thousands of them. I run 16.5x 8.75 military beadlocks with the magnesium run flats. No worries on bolts loosening.

And I will stand my by assertion that if you show up on Rubicon, Fordyce, Barret Lake (this trail sucks BTW) or any Moab trial with Street Locks, people will roll eyeballs at you. Buy hey, 4 wheel parts needs to make money too.

Sean"web wheeler extraordinaire"P

[korda]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ

Now that I made you eat your words its your turn to proove it

Show us where, in any code book, that it states bead locks are not legal. Then call up Scott at Rockstomper and collect your reward for finding the info. He's issued that standing challenge for 2 years and its still standing.

[Jes]

Someone call the waaambulance! :rattle:


Jes

[korda]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
[B]http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/<-- there is the online magazine show me where it sais what you just said:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
Yes, ORO is coming out with a beadlock that is exactly as Economos described. As far as I know it's not out yet but should be pretty soon. And before I'm accused of being full of shit I've actually been to the shop multiple times and have a friend that is their marketing director.

[Beezil]

Dot - Schmott.......

whatever.......just because something is dot-approved, doesn't necessarily make something safer....

just like the stupid iso-90XX ratings.......

I compete with iso-rated companies that make shit in comparison.......

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by SeanP
My beadlocks have a nice little DOT stamp right on them. Not only that, the US Government bought hundreds of thousands of them. I run 16.5x 8.75 military beadlocks with the magnesium run flats. No worries on bolts loosening.

And I will stand my by assertion that if you show up on Rubicon, Fordyce, Barret Lake (this trail sucks BTW) or any Moab trial with Street Locks, people will roll eyeballs at you. Buy hey, 4 wheel parts needs to make money too.

Sean"web wheeler extraordinaire"P

then I stand corrected... :) I seach these and other forums alot an never came across a DOT Stamped Locker. AS you can see MOST of the beadlocks makers are non DOT.
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/wheels/beadlocks.htm
I looked at his site, seems that the beadlocks he sells are kits... (from what I understand) + not anywhere on that site does he say there DOT stamped

So what makes his beadlocks so different from everybody else, obiously you tell me that he had DOT, so what did he do different from all the rest of the makers? They cannot be the same or else it wont be DOT rigjht?

[Beezil]

they're not different, they're not better.....he paid for the rating......that's all.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
Dot - Schmott.......

whatever.......just because something is dot-approved, doesn't necessarily make something safer....

just like the stupid iso-90XX ratings.......

I compete with iso-rated companies that make shit in comparison.......

its not so much the wheel being legal or not legal its all about the wheel being safe. I never said beadlocks are bad... I will most definatly like to have a pair.

thats kinda what I was tring to say:D

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
they're not different, they're not better.....he paid for the rating......that's all.

OH ya thats right I forgot we live in the US that kinda stuff goes on around alot;)

[Beezil]

its the same as iso, qso 9-whatever-the-hell ratings......

I could get those numbers too, but I'm not pulling my pants down to expose my financials and production processes, while paying sums of money so i can wave a iso-9000 flag on my flagpole.....

(typing with one hand, making masterbation gesture with the other)

if I manufactured beadlocks, I wouldn't get them dot-approved either.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
its the same as iso, qso 9-whatever-the-hell ratings......

I could get those numbers too, but I'm not pulling my pants down to expose my financials and production processes, while paying sums of money so i can wave a iso-9000 flag on my flagpole.....

(typing with one hand, making masterbation gesture with the other)

if I manufactured beadlocks, I wouldn't get them dot-approved either.

sounds like more of a liablility to me...

I really dont care if they are legal or not as I stated before. All im trying to point out is that one peice wheels will allways be safer then 2 peice no matter how you put it. I can understand why people run locks on the trail, makes perfect sanse. but please do yourself a favor (not me) and think twice on going long long miles on city road.


thats all I gotta say.
and now Im going to bed... havnt slept much.

[juicexj24]

Final post please. Just wanted to end with another not "DOT" web site.

http://www.bluetorchfab.com/beadlocks.htm

At the bottom of the page. Says "Blue Torch FabWorks wheels are true bead locks. Therefore they are not D.O.T. approved, and are not street legal".

By the way, they are working on a new XJ front bumper. FYI. Juice

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
sounds like more of a liablility to me...

and think twice on going long long miles on city road.



You better stay away from 18 wheelers and high $ exotic sport cars, they both run multi piece rims with bolts and such holding them together. I bet those 18 wheelers but a lot of miles on their tires/rims. And when it comes down to it they are all multi piece rims we are talking about.

You've stated all this "Prove about dot/or not" about other people's statements...

and then state bead locks are unsafe on the street,

so I ask where is all your prove of the accidents happening from bead locks blowing out on the street or even off road?

Not trying to be a ****, but where's the proof for this statement of yours

It's not like we are talking about how safe Ford Explorers are, atleast there is a large amout of evidence to back up how bad they are with all the accidents they are invloved in.

So until you can show how unsafe they are on the street, your statement doesn't float.

I have 30,000 miles, on and off road, on bead locks and no problems. I don't even worry about bolts being loose until they are visable, from across the shop, falling out, before I tighten them. Now I wouldn't concider them anymore unsafe than any other wheel tire combo.

Your point about street locks having a thicker lip and that is better off road for wheel strength, I will agree with. However like Sean said, I wouldn't be caught off road with them.:D

mark
orgs mfg

[mattk]

Dude, carry a spare tire.
mattk

[Jes]

So, what have we learned from this thread?
Street locks are :rainbow: and real beadlocks are safe and cool. :D

Jes

[Beezil]

and...........if theres a bolt or two loose, isn't it nice to know you have 22-34 EXTRA bolts to help??????

the "beadlock legality/safety" threads always brings about goofey logic......

shit, people think nothing of running a rig with 36-38" tires on the highways at highway speed, yet they'll nit-pick at one another on how beadlocks are unsafe........

wierd.

[ChEwBaCcA]

Where dot legal would come into play is when the ring busts in 3 pcs , tire flies off, goes through someones front windshield, they get killed and their estate sues you for every cent you have.

You can bet a lawyer is going to see the pics from the scene and look into the legal issues on that style of rim.

BUT if that happens your going to sued no matter what...the DOT file number is the one thing that "just" might get you off the hook or bring down the total amount of damages they suck out of you.


But then again you can come to Chicago and see people driving on 4 bald , unbalanced, different brand and type tires, bent rims on all 4 sides, motoring down the Ike @95 mphs.....crabbin like a mofo and bouncing up and down. Busted windshield, broken mirrors, and missing tags..........

I would feel safer following a guy in 37" Beadlocks that has pride in his rig!

So what am I saying? I dont know..............................

Fake Beadlocks is like fake beer and cigs w/o nicotene...whats the fawking point!

But hey thats just me
Chewy

[Beezil]

Fake orgasms are even worse.

[xj4rocks]

ain't nothing going to get you off the hook unless you're driving a completely bone stock vehicle and you have meticulous records. You run 235's instead of 225's that came factory and in the minds of an opposing lawyer you're fawked....


and all those rim companies saying their rims are non DOT legal? That's just CYA. No different than saying rollbars are just for show and are not intended to protect the occupants when that is exactly what they're sold for the majority of the time but the sticker on the bar says it's not meant to so leagally it's not meant to. It's easier to say non DOT legal then to pay lawyers and a ton of other people to do the research and then modify your design (if necessary) so it meets the D.O.T. minimum requirements.

But assuming just because a manufacturer (especially in the sport of offroading where many smaller shops are making products) lists that their stuff doesn't meet the standard doesn't mean that it doesn't. They don't want the liability from it.

oh yeah and pointing to all those websites still doesn't prove that beadlocks do not meet D.O.T. standards.

I don't have beadlocks. I personally haven't had too much problem with chewed up rims. If i could afford them would I get them? maybe. are the $25/rims that i use offroad replaceable? sure. do I care if they're torn up - no. Do some manufacturers use better and thicker steel in their rims which thus holds up better to abuse - yes.

beadlocks weren't meant to protect you're rims. they're to hold the tire tight.

[Georgia Mike]

I'm sticking by my flat stems :D So what if they are slow to air up/down? It's still faster than changing a tire or replacing a valve stem :laugh:

[Scott Mac.]

Originally posted by Beezil
Fake orgasms are even worse.

I didn't think they where that bad. :dunno:


I'll stick with my cheap steel rims and if I bend one up I'll throw the spare on and buy another $30 rim.


There are much more usefull things to spend money on a Jeep than street locks.

[basalt51]

Typical Beedlocks aren't DOT approved because the DOt doesn't have a test for them and doesn't want to spend the money to make one.

However this thread isn't about beadlocks. It's about fake beadlocks and that they actually do serve a function. Like this:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/basalt51/cherokee/fordyce6-10/fordyce1b.jpg

And this:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/basalt51/cherokee/wheel.JPG

I don't worry about bending or tearing the lip, cutting the side wall on a torn lip, ripping off my valve stem or loser's on the rubicon trying to show me how stupid they are by making fun of my wheels. You want to spend $600 or more on a set of wheels go right ahead. To me that is pointless and stupid because I've never had a wheel come off the bead but I have had FUBARed wheels and tires - but I'm not going to go around telling people on the trail that becuase wtf do I know about them.

AND... I think they look great. Which is good enough a reason for anybody to get them if they want to. So all the l33t b336 l0ck dudes can kiss it!

Ahh I feel better.

[Jes]

How about this... fake beadlocks without the fake beadlocks? Then they wouldn't be lame. :D :D

Jes

[ChuckD]

Is that an Almond Joy or a Mounds, :D

[basalt51]

Originally posted by Jes
How about this... fake beadlocks without the fake beadlocks? Then they wouldn't be lame. :D :D

Jes

LOL - fake fake beadlocks are lame!

M&M's of course!

[Beezil]

i'm still trying to figure out what REAL function fake beadlocks serve.

notice I didn't say fake beadlocks were gay......

[Jump This]

We wouldn't want to offend any gays here would we? I just run Ultra fake two piece rims. I wouldn't want anyone giving me crud about running fake bead locks.
But....my neighbor just got back from the Rubicon with some of his hard core buddies. He runs fake bead locks and he is grateful for the extra protection they offer...you should see how torn up they are......
How about just ending this here...either you like them or you don't....big hairrry deal....

[Jes]

Originally posted by Jump This
He runs fake bead locks and he is grateful for the extra protection they offer...you should see how torn up they are......


Perhaps he needs driving lessons? ;)

Jes

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by Jump This
I just run Ultra fake two piece rims.

You mean there's an ultra-fake version,too?? What are they,the 36 bolt type :laugh: J/K

[woody]

Y'all some of the brightest bulbs on the Jeepin tree, but ya must have Too Much Time on your hands...

Please come up with something better to argue over. Anything! Bring back the AT vs MT debate, BB or 3", death wobble or just bad eggs for breakfast, paper vs plastic....

Anything done (or undone) will have varying results to an individual, depending on his/her expectations and the execution of the example in question. Circumstance and luck weigh in as well, with mixed results.

OTOH alot of tech or technique issues bring up good points about safety, reliability, and fuctionality, so feel free to share what you can. Please be tolerant and respectful of others, since there often will be several points of view brought to your monitor. Rest assured...your way is not the only way. :)

Thanks for participating...

[Flowers]

Originally posted by Jump This
[B]We wouldn't want to offend any gays here would we? /B]

Why would calling fake bead locks gay offend the gays? I think they should be proud.

[XJZ]

That's all we need now, a fake beadlock parade...

[Jump This]

You all are just too much for me...ROFL! I am glad diversity lives!!

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by woody
or just bad eggs for breakfast, paper vs plastic....



"........Sam I am! And I will NOT eat Green Eggs and Ham!" You guys heard it! The prez has spoken:D

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by Economos
.........and what looks functional............

Looks functional? That's an oxymoron.

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by basalt51
............I don't worry about bending or tearing the lip, cutting the side wall on a torn lip,.....................

Dude, my black steel rockcrawlers were way more beat up than that and they didn't have fake bolt heads for the 'bling' factor. And at $35 per, I didn't feel bad about beating the hell out of them anyway.

[Neil]

Wow, I start a thread because I'm cheap and don't have the bling to spend on real beadlocks, leave town for a couple of days, and look what happens. Man, you guys took this in a whole new direction. I simply stated one simple function of fake bead locks, leave you guys alone and you fling Pandoras Box wide open. I'm not saying that I'm going to run out and buy a set of fake beadlocks, I allready have the $30 rims, they work. What I'm saying is that it would have been nice to have something protecting my valve stem. A fake beadlock looked like the cheapest way to acomplish this. (remember, I'm cheap) By the way, thanks for all of the insight on the real beadlocks.

Neil
P.S. leave Pandoras Box closed this time :)

[Nik]

I like steelies, cheap, just like me, lol, jk. Its funny to read through all of this bitching and get to the end and see how stupid most of it was, not all of it, i learned some new stuff, so maybe there is a purpose.

hunh

[four_shot]

yeah...it got a little hairy there for a while didnt it...lmao

[Beezil]

short valve stems....

nuff said.

[Flowers]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil
Wow, I start a thread because I'm cheap and don't have the bling to spend on real beadlocks, leave town for a couple of days, and look what happens. Man, you guys took this in a whole new direction. I simply stated one simple function of fake bead locks, leave you guys alone and you fling Pandoras Box wide open. I'm not saying that I'm going to run out and buy a set of fake beadlocks, I allready have the $30 rims, they work. What I'm saying is that it would have been nice to have something protecting my valve stem. A fake beadlock looked like the cheapest way to acomplish this. (remember, I'm cheap) By the way, thanks for all of the insight on the real beadlocks.

Neil
P.S. leave Pandoras Box closed this time :) [/QUOTE

Now you tell us!


Fake Flowers

[dave]

just fyi... weld wheels when beadlocked by trailready are dot approved and street legal... they arent changing the rim.. just the way the tire seats on it... also.. most of the beadlock bolt loosening you hear about is when using steel rings which are crazy thin.. they warp and loosen.. aluminum rings from TR actually touch the aluminum rim itself and very little loosening happens.. ::shrug:: don't mind me i'm slow and these $.02 were burning a hole in my pocket.

[CRASH]

Dear Gawd, I leave for 10 days, and this place turns into JU. :rolleyes:

CRASH

[basalt51]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
Looks functional? That's an oxymoron.

Maybe you should read his post a little closer. That was kinda his point.


Originally posted by vintagespeed
Dude, my black steel rockcrawlers were way more beat up than that and they didn't have fake bolt heads for the 'bling' factor. And at $35 per, I didn't feel bad about beating the hell out of them anyway.

And while you're at it read mine a little closer too. That was kinda my point - but I have alot more protection with the gay fakies.

[juicexj24]

Is this fake bead lock thing going to end. Each his own. Who cares about the fake/real ones. If you have them great, your choice. This thing has gotten dragged through every rut in the road and I'm tired of it. Juice

[Beezil]

Hey, come awn now.....what did anyone expect?

you throw a fake beadlock post on a jeep club board (not an open forum) filled with a majority of folks who actually wheel......

OF COURSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE CRITICSMS AND DEBATES

No one should be surprised or disappointed in the responces.

[JnJ]

I'll point and laugh at ya. :D Then I expect you to point and laugh at my crap, then we'll drink beer. :)

[2offroad]

Originally posted by Beezil
Fake orgasms are even worse.
if i am involved it don't mater to me.

this one and "sick people" so sad

[ChEwBaCcA]

Bunch of old hens in here, dont "most" of you have some sort of wrenchin to do before MOAB! Get to work and shut this lame-o thread down

Chew...working hard to get my drink and snack on in Moab...bacca