Which political party are you?

[mdl]

Vote then discuss you're stance and why.


I'm a republican. I don't agree with how libral the democrats are.

[Beej]

Vote then discuss you're stance and why.


I'm a republican. I don't agree with how libral the democrats are. :laugh2: I love how you didn't bother to capitalize your own party, and really love the Bushism in your third sentence... that's rich...

Extreme Left------------------------------Extreme Right
<---------------------------------------------1-2--------------->

Anyway, above is a graph. You could place pure communism over near the left side, and perhaps pure anarchism even lefter. You can put dictatorial tyrannies way over on the right as well. Anything very nationalist could go on the very far right too. What difference does it really make if you support 1 (Democrats) versus 2 (Republicans)? Are democrats really any more 'liberal' than republicans? What does 'liberal' mean to you?

:dunno:

[STEELFISH]

Republican....
Do I think Bush gets everything right? NO! Do I think he is doing a darn good job with all that is going on? YES! Do I think that Liberal media is damaging U.S. Politics? Deffinately
Do I think that Liberal media are in bed with Liberal government? and the majority of the democrats? OH YEAH!

Politics are politics, the thing that irritates me are the crazies that portray their point of view as fact. The prof in Colorado, and now the one in Wisconsin, I think they should be shot for treason. I think the lady in Texas needs to be held in contempt for treason...there is freedom of speech, and then there is interferance with the Country and its leaders. I think the republicans pose a centered approach to Government.

[SanDiegoXJ]

Would have to say anarchist. I'm not really sure why anyone feels the need to have someone else tell them how they should act, much less a coke head like Bush or a cowardly lier like Kerry...hehe, and don't even get me started on that drunk bastard Kennedy being a "law-maker"...how big of a joke is that. A murderer that tells us we need to care about others =D

However, I'm not sure why you'd say anarchist should be extreme left. I care not what you do to others. Oppress them, kill them, pillage their towns....it really doesn't bother me until you try to step on my toes. And I certainly don't go in for socialism, which is basically what today's democratic party now represents. I have no need whatsoever to support some drug baby from a welfare mother who never had enough ambition to get a job in the first place. As for the war, I think both sides are right. We should bring our troops home today! Send over our ICBMs tomorrow! Have cheap gas next month!

Basically, Anarchists have no position on that little scale of yours. A non-belief cannot exist on a scale of beliefs. That would be as moronic as the atheist here in san diego that is offended he cant have a symbol of his belief in nothing next to a cross on Mt. Soledad.

But that's just one man's opinion =)

[TRNDRVR]

I voted Democrat. 'Other' never wins, and most of the Republicans I know are a bunch of chickenshit pussys. :gag:
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:




















:D

[goodburbon]

Other

What happpend to the great southern democrats? an in-between group. One that says that you are your own responsibility, One that takes no chit from anyone threatening its citizens liberties. One that realizes the stupidity of being for abortion and against death penalty, or for the death penalty and against abortion. One that realizes that getting high is not as incapacitating as getting drunk. One that realizes that we are overtaxed, and mismanaged to the brink of our own distruction.

ONE THAT IS WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT ALL OF THE ABOVE!:exclamati

Utill that guy comes along and has a chance to win, I cannot in good conscience ever vote for a guy who changes his mind with every new poll, and has no specific plan.

[jcnoble]

My views are conservative and Republican is my only choice for now. Thinking about going independant. Democrats are too liberal for my blood. They seem to be too politically correct and appeasing and really have no platform other than to hate Bush. Some republican politicians can be appeasing and politically correct also. I guess most politicians are bum kissers. What ever happened to principal? I say stick with what got this country to be so good, true to principal and dont give in to whiners! Just my humble two cents.

[XJEEPER]

I voted Democrat. 'Other' never wins, and most of the Republicans I know are a bunch of chickenshit pussys. :gag:
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: [quote]

This poll is a huge waste time and bandwidth.......politics=money, which makes it the 2nd oldest profession, which too often resembles the 1st.

Dan, don't you have something more productive to do....like post some pictures of your trip or find some more wheels for me?
:D

[Roxtar]

Republicans I know are a bunch of chickenshit pussys.Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg

[j99xj]

Democrats and gasoline powered cars just don't mix in my mind. (it would make them all hypocrites)

Democrats are more at home on a bicycle, or walking where they need to go.

Good thing I'm part of the vast right wing conspiracy. :-)

[IslanderOffRoad]

Registered republican, but I'm more of a Liberterian.

[Roxtar]

I'm more of a Liberterian.So you like books alot?

[HaleYes]

Where is the "Southerner" option?

:D

[Lawn Cher']

I'm apolitical. Politicians get nothing done. Government is bloated and corrupt, bureaucracy is unbounded and this country is grossly mismanaged. Until there is a drastic change in which planning and accountability become the norm, I have no interest or faith in the way our country is run. I'm fiercely independent, and I know my vote doesn't count.

[RedHeep]

I voted other.

The lines between political parties have become so blurred that they're really just two organizations with the ability to fund raise and support candidates. So I don't think you can classify yourself as one or the other. I believe in the right to bear arms, which should make me lean to the right, yet I don't believe in trying to ban gay marriage, so i could be a democrat.

I think if you classify your political views based on a national organization built to deceive it's citizens in the pursuit of $250,000 a year government jobs for it's employees, you've sold yourself short.

[XJ Dreamin']

... Susan Sarandon vagy lickin...

Sorry, I had to fix that one. That pretty much defines my party platform right there.

[Bent]

I'm going to wait until this thread get's better. They always do.


:explosion

[Starscream]

Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg
xEleventy-billion! I couldn't have said it better.

[XJ Dreamin']

I voted but I'm not going to tell you which way, 'cause this is America and no one can make me tell how I vote. :eyes:

[IslanderOffRoad]

I voted other.

The lines between political parties have become so blurred that they're really just two organizations with the ability to fund raise and support candidates. So I don't think you can classify yourself as one or the other. I believe in the right to bear arms, which should make me lean to the right, yet I don't believe in trying to ban gay marriage, so i could be a democrat.

I think if you classify your political views based on a national organization built to deceive it's citizens in the pursuit of $250,000 a year government jobs for it's employees, you've sold yourself short.

Ya know what.

I think this is the best point brought up so far.

[5-90]

You forgot NPA - No Party Affiliation.

Classify me as a cross between "Conservative Libertarian" and "Anarchist" - using the classic definition for "Anarchist."

"Anarchy" is defined as "an absence of externally-imposed government or social order" - in other words, ruling by "social contract" rather than by laws and regulations.

The "social contract" is the body of unwritten rules governing human behaviour and interaction. No-one tells you how to do it, you learn it as you go. The problem with the idea of anarchy is simple - the "social contract" has been decaying for the last forty years, most sharply in the last ten. This false sense of entitlement we're raising children with is going to do more damage to us than an overt war - I can damn near guarantee it.

If we DO have to have a government, it should be "small and inoffensive" internally - the minimum required to maintain social order and to provide for the common defense. Welfare isn't a part of my government, that's just socialism ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.") I'm seeing an awful lot of that from BOTH parties!

FDR was probably the beginning of the end. While he wasn't (I think) responsible for the Great Depression, he put a programme in place that hastened "social welfare" for years to come - Social Security.

The Social Security programme was NOT meant to last more than five years, which is why the system is "broken" now. It just wasn't designed to last this long. However, in providing "welfare" to retirees, everyone else started clamouring "Me too!" - and look where it's gotten us.

Complete revokation of welfare may not be the answer - as usual, the answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. However, we should be getting something BACK for all the public dollars spent on welfare - bringing back something like FDR's WPA (one programme he came up with that I DO agree with!) would be helpful. If you don't have any other skills, and you're on the dole, you can still push a shovel - or, go to school and LEARN a skill or three.

As far as the lines being blurred between parties - so true. "Republicrat" or "Demican" are better names for them than "Republican" or "Democrat" anymore, y'ask me. It's just a matter of which side is more liberal/socialist than the other (but both are, to a certain degree.) OTOH, I can't bring myself to vote for a Democrat candidate for anything anymore - simply because I don't agree at all with their EXTENT.

"Spirit of '76 - Re-elect Nobody!"

5-90

[jcnoble]

This is getting good now. Why not forget the whole party thing and just say what we would like versus what we actually need. I dont like big government but we need a military to protect our interests. We are capatalists and need to sell our junk! I dont like welfare and stuff like that , I think we should all work, most everyone can do something. There are exceptions. This whole country has gotten itself wrapped around the axle. We need clarity and a purpose I think. etc.... anyone??

[5-90]

This is getting good now. Why not forget the whole party thing and just say what we would like versus what we actually need. I dont like big government but we need a military to protect our interests. We are capatalists and need to sell our junk! I dont like welfare and stuff like that , I think we should all work, most everyone can do something. There are exceptions. This whole country has gotten itself wrapped around the axle. We need clarity and a purpose I think. etc.... anyone??

I've been saying all that - and more! - for years. Odd to find someone in Southern California who thinks much the same way...

I've got a monograph to write on the subject, but it hasn't fully crystallised yet...

5-90

[rock rash]

I chose other.

I have very libral views on most things...but also have some fairly conservative views and do not like to be associated with the stereotypes of either party

[TRNDRVR]

Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg
Well that worked well. http://timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/rofl2.gif



PS Didn't notice the smiley or understand my intention did you? Thanks for the entertainment. Carry on. That is all. :D

<edit> Oooops, I didn't notice your smiley either. My bad!

[BRIANHO13]

Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg

You left out union loving. Well I guess "welfare recipient" covers that.

[Tom in KY]

Registered Republican, but not impressed with either party at the moment.

[SanDiegoXJ]

You forgot NPA - No Party Affiliation.

Classify me as a cross between "Conservative Libertarian" and "Anarchist" - using the classic definition for "Anarchist."

"Anarchy" is defined as "an absence of externally-imposed government or social order" - in other words, ruling by "social contract" rather than by laws and regulations.

The "social contract" is the body of unwritten rules governing human behaviour and interaction. No-one tells you how to do it, you learn it as you go. The problem with the idea of anarchy is simple - the "social contract" has been decaying for the last forty years, most sharply in the last ten. This false sense of entitlement we're raising children with is going to do more damage to us than an overt war - I can damn near guarantee it.

If we DO have to have a government, it should be "small and inoffensive" internally - the minimum required to maintain social order and to provide for the common defense. Welfare isn't a part of my government, that's just socialism ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.") I'm seeing an awful lot of that from BOTH parties!

FDR was probably the beginning of the end. While he wasn't (I think) responsible for the Great Depression, he put a programme in place that hastened "social welfare" for years to come - Social Security.

The Social Security programme was NOT meant to last more than five years, which is why the system is "broken" now. It just wasn't designed to last this long. However, in providing "welfare" to retirees, everyone else started clamouring "Me too!" - and look where it's gotten us.

Complete revokation of welfare may not be the answer - as usual, the answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. However, we should be getting something BACK for all the public dollars spent on welfare - bringing back something like FDR's WPA (one programme he came up with that I DO agree with!) would be helpful. If you don't have any other skills, and you're on the dole, you can still push a shovel - or, go to school and LEARN a skill or three.

As far as the lines being blurred between parties - so true. "Republicrat" or "Demican" are better names for them than "Republican" or "Democrat" anymore, y'ask me. It's just a matter of which side is more liberal/socialist than the other (but both are, to a certain degree.) OTOH, I can't bring myself to vote for a Democrat candidate for anything anymore - simply because I don't agree at all with their EXTENT.

"Spirit of '76 - Re-elect Nobody!"

5-90

Bravo!! I like the way you think =)

[Ramsey]

you need to add that child lover party from whereever it was on there.

[\\'anderer]

Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg
DITTO !

I'm a Republican, but I still feel that our government as a whole, is out of control. Income tax, sales tax, gasoline tax, local tax, 1/2 of my income goes to the government, but I still pay entrance fees to national parks ! (tax on top of taxes?).

Then they take my money (social security too) and spend it for me on things most Americans will never benefit from. What buisness does the government have in stem cell research at all, why do they take money from me (social security) and give it back to me at at a rate much less than if I put it in the bank in a regular savings account.
Why can't I walk down the street with a gun, or say Jesus in school. Those are Constitutional rights but I would be punished for both acts.

Politics Must not be a career BUT a service to the country. All polititions must have term limits, so they must return to the REAL world with the rest of us.

Don't even get me started on liberal activist judges:gonnablow

[TRNDRVR]

Then they take my money (social security too)I'm glad I don't pay into Social Security.

[5-90]

I'm glad I don't pay into Social Security.

Yeah - doesn't Railroad Retirement give a greater return on investment? Hod's that plan get started, anyhow? I've been wondering...

That, and howcumzit you don't get SS like the rest of us "great unwashed" (apparently, the Congresscritters don't get to collect either. I don't much care for SS, but I care even less for the plan that THEY get - aren't most of them independently wealthy anyhow? They can afford to spend $10M to get a job that pays $150K per annum...)

5-90

[flexjay87]

well in simple terms, democrats have been hi-jacked by liberals. many average dem. voters are ignorant of this fact and keep voting like sheep to slaughter. basically it's like this, democrats think that government is the answer to all of our problems, and the key is to spend as much money as can be bled from taxpayers. repubs., in general believe government should be as small as possible and still be able to keep our country safe, while keeping entitlements at a minimum. neither party is perfect, but then again humans are still congressmen, so at least some corruption and waste are expected. i'm a registered republican.

[BOB]

REPUBLICAN

How can anyone vote for Hillary Rotten Clinton?
She wants to run the White House?
sh*t, she can't even keep an eye on ol' Billy.

...BOB

[boise49ers]

Republican....
Do I think Bush gets everything right? NO! Do I think he is doing a darn good job with all that is going on? YES! Do I think that Liberal media is damaging U.S. Politics? Deffinately
Do I think that Liberal media are in bed with Liberal government? and the majority of the democrats? OH YEAH!

Thats Rich ! Like Good Ole Fox News eh ? Hah hahah hahah ! Sounds like a Clip from the Rush Limbaugh show to me. The man that said to lock up all the druggies and get rid of entitlement programs until his fat ass was caught being one and needed one of those entitlement programs. I'm far from Liberal, but I have to say John Stewart is the man. Bush is probably the Best thing that has ever happen to America though. Corportate America, not the one I live in.
This thread should get alot of attention. I do know the majority of off-roaders are Republican because of Land usage issues. So Democrats will get beat down in this poll. Put the same poll up for say Bicycling, chances are pretty good Rep. will get beat down.:sunshine:

[boise49ers]

Registered Republican, but not impressed with either party at the moment.

Totally Agree !

[IcedXJ]

Other

What happpend to the great southern democrats? an in-between group. One that says that you are your own responsibility, One that takes no chit from anyone threatening its citizens liberties. One that realizes the stupidity of being for abortion and against death penalty, or for the death penalty and against abortion. One that realizes that getting high is not as incapacitating as getting drunk. One that realizes that we are overtaxed, and mismanaged to the brink of our own distruction.

ONE THAT IS WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT ALL OF THE ABOVE!:exclamati

Utill that guy comes along and has a chance to win, I cannot in good conscience ever vote for a guy who changes his mind with every new poll, and has no specific plan.

Funny I just read this and I agree fully.. Good show

[Starscream]

Put the same poll up for say Bicycling, chances are pretty good Rep. will get beat down.:sunshine:
Who the hell bicycles anyway? :confused1

[the1jzahn]

Put the same poll up for say Bicycling, chances are pretty good Rep. will get beat down.:sunshine:

Very true. I used to visit 'bike forums' and a few weeks ago I noticed that it seemed like most of the cyclists were liberal wack jobs but those on this forum seemed a little more to the right in general. Many of the cyclicst think that gas vehicles and driving off road is a horrible sin to humanity. They need to take a ten foot pole and shove it right up their a$$. This is why I don't go there anymore, even though I am an avid biker.

Back to the point of the thread. I agree that both parties can annoy me but I agree pretty much with mostly what all the republicans stand for. We should have guns and enforce the laws we have, no new ones. SS is worthless seeing that I can invest it myself and make 10 fold of what the gov. will give back. School vouchers=good. Abortion and death penalty are two totally different situations, so I think abortion is bad, and the :hang:is fine if that person is 100% the killer and shows no remorse. I could go on for days...

I need some:cheers:

[boise49ers]

Who the hell bicycles anyway? :confused1
Oh Man come to Boise sometime. It is huge here and I live on their main drag. I live along the foothills going into the National Forest and my job is right down the same street. 1.25 mile commute. Anyway those fawktards ride 3 a breast and don't stop for stop signs and don't have too. I used to throw a fit until I contacted Traffic Control on the BPD. They had legislation passed saying they could do both. If you toot your horn to let them know you are approaching there is a good chance they will flip you off. They boil my blood. After a few run ins and finding out I had heart diease I had to calm down. Plus my grand daughter is with me quite a bit so I think about that too. I wish the things were never created at this point. Sorry for getting off track, but this thread has did a lot of that
:)

[Tom in KY]

Unfortunately, Jimmy Carter made a Republican out of me.

He was possibly the weakest Southern Democrat in history.

Show me a strong Southern Democrat that actually deals with the issues that are plaguing this country, and I may defect.

Maybe.

[XJ Dreamin']

Oh Man come to Boise sometime. It is huge here and I live on their main drag. I live along the foothills going into the National Forest and my job is right down the same street. 1.25 mile commute. Anyway those fawktards ride 3 a breast and don't stop for stop signs and don't have too. I used to throw a fit until I contacted Traffic Control on the BPD. They had legislation passed saying they could do both. If you toot your horn to let them know you are approaching there is a good chance they will flip you off. They boil my blood. After a few run ins and finding out I had heart diease I had to calm down. Plus my grand daughter is with me quite a bit so I think about that too. I wish the things were never created at this point. Sorry for getting off track, but this thread has did a lot of that
:)

Are they riding on Hwy 21? You got to have a death wish to ride along Moore's Creek. Sometimes I wonder if they're not actually hoping to get killed, they're so flippant about the risks they take.

[XJ Dreamin']

Unfortunately, Jimmy Carter made a Republican out of me.

He was possibly the weakest Southern Democrat in history.

Show me a strong Southern Democrat that actually deals with the issues that are plaguing this country, and I may defect.

Maybe.

Hah. My dad is Democrat all the way and he absolutely hates Carter. He says Carter is the only President who flat out lied about what he would do when elected. Talking about Carter absolutely burns his butt. It's fun sometimes to bring it up just to get him going.

[javajeep]

I know I am in the minority on this board, but all republicans and the damn church people want to live your life for you. Repubs are nothing but a bunch of chickenshit, silverspooned, rich boys who never learned to shoot straight. There is a reason the democrats have a ton more veterans on their side than repugs.

My liberal friends are a lot more fun and a lot less uptight than my bible-thumping repug friends. Just sayin . . .

[XJSpencer]

When I was 19, I asked my dad to explain the difference between Democrats and Republicans.

He said,"Democrats are for equal outcome and Republicans are for equal opportunity."

From what I've seen since then, He's right!

I'm Republican as far as I can tell and that's how I vote. At least they generally know what they Believe in.

If I want retirement, I should save for it. If I want to provide Workers Comp for my guys as a benefit, I can. I should not be forced.....Unions...Don't get started...OSHA...

If I want money, I can go out and try, try, try until I make a living for myself. I shouldn't expect the government to save me when I give in to the lazy demon.....Welfare has it's place, but come on!

OK That's enough. Oh, javajeep better have proof of that veterans stat he threw out there because I have relatives in the armed forces that say BS.

[ssjkakkarotx]

I am a Republican because I believe that every person is responsible for their own actions. I see the Democrat Party as always looking for someone to blame for their problems. My parents didn't love me enough , I didn't get a fair chance , he's a rascist , she hates men. That and how quickly Democrat will embrace junk science.

[5-90]

When I was 19, I asked my dad to explain the difference between Democrats and Republicans.

He said,"Democrats are for equal outcome and Republicans are for equal opportunity."

From what I've seen since then, He's right!

I'm Republican as far as I can tell and that's how I vote. At least they generally know what they Believe in.

If I want retirement, I should save for it. If I want to provide Workers Comp for my guys as a benefit, I can. I should not be forced.....Unions...Don't get started...OSHA...

If I want money, I can go out and try, try, try until I make a living for myself. I shouldn't expect the government to save me when I give in to the lazy demon.....Welfare has it's place, but come on!

OK That's enough. Oh, javajeep better have proof of that veterans stat he threw out there because I have relatives in the armed forces that say BS.

I don't think I'd heard it put that way, but it makes sense. A few points...

"Unions" had their time - but it's mostly come and gone. They were needed when they got started, because that was when companies would work people pretty much to death, and they were "replaceable commodities." Read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair...

Workman's Comp should be provided - but current management is inefficient and wasteful. Almost as much as WC Fraud.

Welfare? Welfare is in need of MASSIVE overhaul. I can sort of see the need for it from time to time, but if we're going to pump all these public dollars into people, I'd like to see the public get something back. Do public works jobs if you want to be "on the dole" - even digging ditches would be an improvement. Either that, or go to trade school for a year or so, so you CAN get a job!
Either way, Welfare needs two things:
1) A time limit. No "subsidised living in perpetuity."
2) A ceiling. No having more kids to get more welfare dollars - when you go on the dole, you get assessed as to what you're going to get, and that's it. It might go up for "cost of living" increases, but it won't go up because you had a kid we didn't count the first time.

I tend to think other reforms are necessary, but that's a good place to start.

I'd also like to see some serious tax reform - perhaps a "flat tax" of five to seven percent (and DAMN the tax brackets!) or a National Retail Sales Tax of five to seven percent, assessed in similar manner as the various state sales taxes (not on staple foodstuffs or labour, and on everything else,) which would give US some control - to some extent - on how much money we give the government. Dismantle the petty fiefdoms that exist in the "civil service" for little more reason than the egos of bureaucrats, and make 'em work for a living... Congresscritters get enough "fringe" benefits, so cut their pay as well. It's called "civil service" for a reason, I think...

5-90

[XJSpencer]

We see pretty much eye to eye there Jon.

The only thing I don't think I stated well is that I think Companies should have the choice to provide Workers Comp as a benefit. I would still carry it even if it were not required. I could almost give my guys health, life, and maybe disability insurances for what I pay on Comp. If it wasn't required, rates would fall dramatically as the unsafe employers dropped coverage.

Oh, back to the topic....Republican because it "Feels" right.

[BRIANHO13]

I know I am in the minority on this board, but all republicans and the damn church people want to live your life for you. Repubs are nothing but a bunch of chickenshit, silverspooned, rich boys who never learned to shoot straight. There is a reason the democrats have a ton more veterans on their side than repugs.

My liberal friends are a lot more fun and a lot less uptight than my bible-thumping repug friends. Just sayin . . .

Are you kidding me?

Democrats are the ones who want big government to run every aspect of your life, who do you think wants more of your money to fund this big government, to "live your life for you"?

[boise49ers]

Are you kidding me?

Democrats are the ones who want big government to run every aspect of your life, who do you think wants more of your money to fund this big government, to "live your life for you"?
Well I'm not sure if that is a true statement. Bush has been far from Conservative when it comes to spending your tax dollars. The military is a Government enity. That is where most of the tax dollars are going right now. That isn't exactly small government. Government is government no exceptions because it all drains dollars. You can say , but we are keeping terrorist out of the USA. To that I say yeah right. They will be back and hit us again no matter whether we are killing Arabs in the Mideast or not. Secure our borders and let the Mideast do what it has been doing for Thousands of years, killing each other. We ain't gonna change it, no one has yet. Example is on CNN every night.

[RedHeep]

Congresscritters get enough "fringe" benefits, so cut their pay as well. It's called "civil service" for a reason, I think...

5-90

Why do I have to work year 'round and my Congressman gets 2 months off for Christmas and New Year's?

I'm not deeply religious either, but if we want to keep God out of the government, they should work on Sunday too.

[Roxtar]

I'm far from Liberal:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[Roxtar]

<edit> Oooops, I didn't notice your smiley either. My bad!I think both posts were in the same spirit. :cheers:

[javajeep]

Everyone who thinks the democrats are for BIG government and the the repugnants are the party if small government need to stop listening to Limpballs on the radio and use your own eyes and your own mind to answer the following questions:

1. Which party believes that you should not spend more money than you have? Democrats.

2. Which party puts everything on the USA credit card? Repugnants

The taxes of my children are going to be paying off the debt that asshat has been accumulating over the past 6 years.

I wish the Big Dog was still getting blow jobs in the oval office.

[boise49ers]

Everyone who thinks the democrats are for BIG government and the the repugnants are the party if small government need to stop listening to Limpballs on the radio and use your own eyes and your own mind to answer the following questions:

1. Which party believes that you should not spend more money than you have? Democrats.

2. Which party puts everything on the USA credit card? Repugnants

The taxes of my children are going to be paying off the debt that asshat has been accumulating over the past 6 years.

I wish the Big Dog was still getting blow jobs in the oval office.

Woo Hoo ! I wish I was getting blowjobs in my office.:shocked:

[goodburbon]

Everyone who thinks the democrats are for BIG government and the the repugnants are the party if small government need to stop listening to Limpballs on the radio and use your own eyes and your own mind to answer the following questions:

1. Which party believes that you should not spend more money than you have? BOTH! Are you blind to the facts?.

2. Which party puts everything on the USA credit card? BOTH!

The taxes of my children are going to be paying off the debt that asshat has been accumulating over the past 6 years.

I wish the Big Dog was still getting blow jobs in the oval office.(yeah, so we could completely disassemble and neglect our military.):confused1

Bush is not the cause of all of the worlds problems, it would be nice if that were true, but it isn't.

Which party belives in a policy of "we must protect the citizens from themselves, we must give them everything they need, and we must charge them four times what they would pay for these things themselves."

At this point in history Republicans are better for our country than Dems would be. That said I'm still other.

[Fish'nCarz]

I was a Republican for 40 years and am so sick of the lyin', cheatin', bastards running the gubmint on both sides of the isle I'd vote for a talking horse right about now. Will Rogers had it right when he said that anyone who wanted to hold public office shouldn't be allowed to run.

[BOB]

it all about votes for the Democrats.
They try to make the little guy feel like they're doing something for them.
well, I got knews for you. Dems aren't doing jack.
we're all dissappointed in oil prices.
but, the economy is doing well.
the jobless numbers are down and rates are good.

...BOB

[Tom in KY]

I was a Republican for 40 years and am so sick of the lyin', cheatin', bastards running the gubmint on both sides of the isle I'd vote for a talking horse right about now. Will Rogers had it right when he said that anyone who wanted to hold public office shouldn't be allowed to run.

Worth repeating.:spin1: :wave1:

[MyJeepXJ]

Can you please add Communist so I can cast my vote?

Thanks...

[javajeep]

Bush is not the cause of all of the worlds problems, it would be nice if that were true, but it isn't.

Which party belives in a policy of "we must protect the citizens from themselves, we must give them everything they need, and we must charge them four times what they would pay for these things themselves."

At this point in history Republicans are better for our country than Dems would be. That said I'm still other.
I don't blame Bush for all of the problems --- he is only one guy and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He could not have done all of the damage in the past 6 years by himself.

I place blame squarely on the repugnant party. Only two of them are worth anything: McCain -- a true American Hero and Chuck Hagel. The rest are just like Tom Hot Tub Delay and are pillaging our country for their own gain.

You are correct ---- dems are doing jack sh*. Repugs control everything: congress, senate, and whitehouse. On the federal level, there are no dems with any power to do anything.

When the Big Dog was prez., we had the largest SURPLUS in history. Now, we have the largest DEFICIT in history. They don't care about the country --- only themselves. When golden boy's polls tanked after Katrina, they gave out thousands of $400 (I think I am right about the amount) debit cards so that people could go to strip clubs. The ONLY purpose was to rescue shrub's poll numbers. WTF!!!!

People who believe that the Big Daddy republicans are better at protecting you from the mean terrorists need to have their head examined. Where is Osama???? Why can't the fix the problem with North Korea???? If we had smarter people in office, instead of the Keystone Cops, these problems could be dispensed with in short order.

[Roxtar]

Can you please add Communist so I can cast my vote?

Thanks...Democrat is already on the list.

[SCW]

Democrat is already on the list.


Perfect.

[Roxtar]

I don't blame Bush for all of the problems --- he is only one guy and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He could not have done all of the damage in the past 6 years by himself.

I place blame squarely on the repugnant party. Only two of them are worth anything: McCain -- a true American Hero and Chuck Hagel. The rest are just like Tom Hot Tub Delay and are pillaging our country for their own gain.

You are correct ---- dems are doing jack sh*. Repugs control everything: congress, senate, and whitehouse. On the federal level, there are no dems with any power to do anything.

When the Big Dog was prez., we had the largest SURPLUS in history. Now, we have the largest DEFICIT in history. They don't care about the country --- only themselves. When golden boy's polls tanked after Katrina, they gave out thousands of $400 (I think I am right about the amount) debit cards so that people could go to strip clubs. The ONLY purpose was to rescue shrub's poll numbers. WTF!!!!

People who believe that the Big Daddy republicans are better at protecting you from the mean terrorists need to have their head examined. Where is Osama???? Why can't the fix the problem with North Korea???? If we had smarter people in office, instead of the Keystone Cops, these problems could be dispensed with in short order.My father once told me, "There are two kinds of people you never want to argue with; Someone who's right and someone who's completely ignorant."

I have nothing to say to you.
And no, you're not right.

[5-90]

My father once told me, "There are two kinds of people you never want to argue with; Someone who's right and someone who's completely ignorant."

I have nothing to say to you.
And no, you're not right.

So, is that anything like "Never have a battle of wits with the unarmed?"

5-90

[goodburbon]

A major Turn off for me comes from both sides, but is way more prevalent from the Dems.

A severe lack of respect for the office of the Presidency.

He is the PRESIDENT and not MR. BUSH. Clinton is no longer the PRESIDENT! It is disrespectful and just plain rude to refer to them as such.

I find it very funny that you bring up 2 of Ex- President Clintons huge f-ups and place them squarely on the Republicans.

Osama was offered to the U.S. Clinton didn't take the offer.

Clinton HANDED North Korea nuclear technology.

I am partial to no side here, but your glaring errors show your ignorance and predjudice.

Where is Other when you really need him?

[XJSpencer]

When the Big Dog was prez., we had the largest SURPLUS in history.

You think He created the economy that produced the surplus? Wrong! That economy was created by Pres. Reagan and Pres. Bush Senior. We are now suffering the efeects of 8 years of Pres. Clinton in office.

[TRNDRVR]

I think both posts were in the same spirit. :cheers:Yep....Now where'd I leave that stir stick? :angel:

[javajeep]

You think He created the economy that produced the surplus? Wrong! That economy was created by Pres. Reagan and Pres. Bush Senior. We are now suffering the efeects of 8 years of Pres. Clinton in office.

:huh:

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Now --- repeat after me good republican economic genius schooled in Limpballs institute of conservative brainswashing:

UP is Down.

2 + 2 = 5

Right is Left.

I thought that republicans were all about taking responsibility for their own actions. Doesn't seem so.

:dunno:

[ssjkakkarotx]

where do you think Clinton got that "surplus" from?
1. gutting the military
2. Internet boom in which he had nothing do to with.

And fact is there never was a surplus. We still had 6 trillion in debt.

[TRNDRVR]

I think this post now deserves a.......http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif


Carry on.

[\\'anderer]

where do you think Clinton got that "surplus" from?
1. gutting the military
2. Internet boom in which he had nothing do to with.

And fact is there never was a surplus. We still had 6 trillion in debt.

Clinton had nothing to do with the internet, it was Gore that claimed to have invented it, HaHaHa:looser:

[5-90]

Clinton had nothing to do with the internet, it was Gore that claimed to have invented it, HaHaHa:looser:

Moot point. I won't believe we have an "economic surplus" until two things happen...

1) The American National Deficit is either paid off or absolved (considering the amount of debt we've "forgiven" other countries, I wonder why we're still waiting...?)
2) The annual trade deficit with the Pacific Rim is either balanced (for a net ZERO balance between imports and exports, in absolute dollar value) or tilted in favour of the United States.

These are probably not going to happen. 1) because we're still perceived as the "richest boy in town" and there's no reason to absolve us of debt (again, like we've done with so many) and 2) because until people realise what "price-shopping" is doing to the United States, we're going to continue to buy crap (yep - that's right, crap. Shoddily- and cheaply-made crap) from the Pacific Rim, most notably Mainland China (who gave them MFN trading status, anyhow? Just wondering - I thought we had an internal war on account of slavery, indirectly speaking...)

Until we have a surplus we can actually BANK, we don't have a practical surplus - someone in Congress was just remiss on his spending duties that year...

5-90

[boise49ers]

Moot point. I won't believe we have an "economic surplus" until two things happen...

1) The American National Deficit is either paid off or absolved (considering the amount of debt we've "forgiven" other countries, I wonder why we're still waiting...?)
2) The annual trade deficit with the Pacific Rim is either balanced (for a net ZERO balance between imports and exports, in absolute dollar value) or tilted in favour of the United States.

These are probably not going to happen. 1) because we're still perceived as the "richest boy in town" and there's no reason to absolve us of debt (again, like we've done with so many) and 2) because until people realise what "price-shopping" is doing to the United States, we're going to continue to buy crap (yep - that's right, crap. Shoddily- and cheaply-made crap) from the Pacific Rim, most notably Mainland China (who gave them MFN trading status, anyhow? Just wondering - I thought we had an internal war on account of slavery, indirectly speaking...)

Until we have a surplus we can actually BANK, we don't have a practical surplus - someone in Congress was just remiss on his spending duties that year...

5-90
Well out of all of us Bozo's, 5-90 sounds the most intellegent and informed. I vote for you next President. By the sounds of it he has actually studied Economics and isn't blowing hot air he hears on the Radio and Television.
You duh Man ! Neither party is living up to their ends of the deal. SUCK'S !
Funny how the opposing parties never give credit for good things one has done and everything bad is that parties fault. I do it too !
Any way I may have unsubscibe to this thread. It is taking up way to of my time:variety:

[XJEEPER]

Which was my point several pages ago...throwing poo at the opposite party/parties solves nothing.

Electing Reps and a President with a spine, moral fortitude and uncompromising conviction to do what's best for the USA are the only things that will help us pull out of the tailspin that we're in politically..... not sure these folks want to dive into the toilet that our government has become.

[5-90]

Well out of all of us Bozo's, 5-90 sounds the most intellegent and informed. I vote for you next President. By the sounds of it he has actually studied Economics and isn't blowing hot air he hears on the Radio and Television.
You duh Man ! Neither party is living up to their ends of the deal. SUCK'S !
Funny how the opposing parties never give credit for good things one has done and everything bad is that parties fault. I do it too !
Any way I may have unsubscibe to this thread. It is taking up way to of my time:variety:

Nope - all my "economic advice" is based upon my own observations, not on "education."

Economics is a combination of a mass hallucination and a work of pure fiction. It's largely predicated upon the "universal value of a monetary unit" - which is itself a flawed assumption.

F'rinstance, the US economy hinges upon "the value of a dollar." Huh? We've been off the gold standard for 30-40 years (it was apparently rescinded in the 1970's, not 1933, as I'd previously thought) and what the dollar can buy is based upon the "full faith and credit" of a country that is quite a few billion dollars in debt to the rest of the world.

If I handled my money the way the US handles ours, I'd expect to have a FICO score in the low 100's - at best.

Since "economics" is therefore not based upon a universal law or truth (and not one made up by Man) and can't effectively be quantified mathematically with a universal model (too much psychology involved -and we don't have an accurate and consistent mathematical or chemical model of that, either...) then I can't see wasting more than random reading on the subject. If it can't be quantified mathematically - with a high degree of consistency - it ain't science. I'd rather study ballistics.

Not having been educated in economics, however, seems to do a couple things for me:
1) It frees me up to "speak what I see," without having to defer to "mathematical models" (I've seen them - there are too many variables!) or "common wisdom" (which is neither "common" nor "wisdom.")
2) It opens my eyes from the "tunnel vision" that most "economists" suffer from, and therefore allows me to consider more factors in my own observations. Economics, as I'd alluded to earlier, ain't all about money. Sociology and psychology seem to play greater factors than these bozos we hear on the news would care to admit to in public.

I don't care to hear from either party, to be perfectly honest - I just haven't seen any groundwork laid for a viable third party, compleatly dissociated from the actions and principles of the other two. Therefore, American Socialist, Communist, and other parties aren't in the running.

"Libertiarians" are barely there, but they seem to be becoming diluted to the point where, by the time they become viable, there won't be much difference between them and the Republicrats/Demicans anyhow.

As far as "the opposing party giving credit for the good things done," I'd like to hear examples. Sorry, but I can probably shoot holes in most political "good works" of the last fifty years - you'll find that most "good deeds" they do are designed to benefit themselves first, and other people second.

"The ideal person to wield political power is a person who does not want it."

"Government is never carried out for the benefit of the governed."

"An elected official spends so much time trying to get re-elected that he does not have time for anything else. This gives argument in favour of term limits - if they can't re-run, then they can actually do something useful. Terms should be served one at a time, without possibility of being re-elected until that individual has been out of office for a term. This applies at all levels."

"A politician is an individual who cannot make it in the 'real world.' Whether this is due to a lack of saleable skills (and being able to make it in trades) or due to a lack of wit (and therefore unable to make it in 'professional occupations,') his only true commodity is his jawbone, and he sells it in volume. Unfortunately, it is what most of us are looking for."

You should be able to attribute two of those, and the other two (I'm fairly sure) are mine. Which is which? :read:

5-90

[Nevada City Sparky]

Liberal Democrat and Proud of it. I'm a Liberal Redneck. Of course, living in Hippie Heaven, that makes me a conservative.

[boise49ers]

Yeah you do ! Do you know David Anderson ? Ram pick up I think now. Crazy little guy. Has a sister who would live around there too. Darlene with a son Billy who would be in his 20s.

[Menzenski]

I heartily agree with 5-90 that government should be as small as possible. Don't illegalize "victimless crimes" like drug use, gambling and prostitution. It's my life, let me do with it what I will. As long as my decisions only impact myself, what's the problem? If I'm old and sick and want to die, who is the government to stop me from being in control of my own body? I think abortion should be legal. I find its use as a retroactive birth control completely abhorrent, but if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant she should have the option of an abortion.

I don't know exactly where I fall on the political spectrum. I think our nation would be much better off if we relied less on legislation and more on education.

[Pat]

Yeah you do ! Do you know David Anderson ? Ram pick up I think now. Crazy little guy. Has a sister who would live around there too. Darlene with a son Billy who would be in his 20s.

is that Donnie Baker?

I like the softy Dems that complain about everything but have no solutions. general public, people in office, media in bed with the Dems, etc.

we're not all going to agree on everything nor always have the best solution. but if you're going to whine about something, at least conjure up a way to solve the problem.

[boise49ers]

is that Donnie Baker?

I like the softy Dems that complain about everything but have no solutions. general public, people in office, media in bed with the Dems, etc.

we're not all going to agree on everything nor always have the best solution. but if you're going to whine about something, at least conjure up a way to solve the problem.

No actually I was asking if he knew a guy in Nevada City that I know.

[XJSpencer]

:huh:



It comes as no surprise that you do not understand my comment.... We don't need to know about your Limpballs problem. Sound personal to me...

I don't think either party is totally bad or good. I just agree with the conservative/republican standpoint usually.

Sorry if my posts are getting unintelligible. Some of the posts I read in this forum really are a drain on my IQ. And it wasn't that high to begin with.


BTW I've never heard Limbaugh before. I make my own opinions thanks.

[5-90]

As long as the subject came up...

Google "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" - should still see the compleat text online. It's a longish treatise on "victimless crimes" or "consensual crimes" (things you do to yourself, or to another with their consent, or things that have been made crimes - but harm no-one) that makes a few good points.

I'll have to see if I have an archive copy somewhere - or get another one if I don't. I do recall it being a good read...

5-90

[OT]

Damn, look at all the undecideds...

[5-90]

Damn, look at all the undecideds...

Oh, no - I'm firmly decided! I don't like either party, and I don't see a viable third option...

5-90

[IcedXJ]

Oh, no - I'm firmly decided! I don't like either party, and I don't see a viable third option...

5-90

Where is the twilight zone music?

Do you need emotional help? Are you lost without that third option?

:roflmao:

[WVXJ]

I think i'm some sort of libertarian on that political compass someone posted a while back..........definitely not republitarded, as i can read and write.......and having some social grace and tolerance of other ppl and cultures.......unlike the president lol

-----BTW, liberal media??? that is funny...............i thought every media outlet in this country was basically cheerleading for the war, and still don't make a stink over georgy boy wiping his arse with the constitution.........

[NRT_Chris]

Though I disagree with alot of Dem. policy, A president That lets is religous views guide his political policy is lame! Rep. are suposed to want a smaller government, But they always vote against things like Gays getting married and abortion. The only way they seem to defend their point is to use the Bible. For those that will say that our country was founded on christian views your wrong! Our country was founded on Freedom of worship.The founding fathers just happend to be christians With over 50% of married people getting a divorse., How can we say that Gays will ruin The Sactity of marriage? If a woman uses abortion as birth control, I think Its wrong and slutty, But who am i to tell her How to run her life? For a group that wants a smaller government they sure have a odd way of showing it.

Our "War on Drugs" is also a joke. The D.A.R.E. program has been around for about 20 years now. What has it done? I wish someone would do a study On how many kids went through the program and still got hooked on something. All the War is doing is making millions for drug dealers. This country learned nothing from proabition

[5-90]

Where is the twilight zone music?

Do you need emotional help? Are you lost without that third option?

:roflmao:

Not at all. For the moment, I think I'm the third option. I just don't run into enough others to form a viable third option for everyone else.

I don't feel at all "lost" - just "misplaced." It's a semantic difference, but it is a difference...

5-90

[Ironmen77]

I'd also like to see some serious tax reform - perhaps a "flat tax" of five to seven percent (and DAMN the tax brackets!) or a National Retail Sales Tax of five to seven percent, assessed in similar manner as the various state sales taxes (not on staple foodstuffs or labour, and on everything else,) which would give US some control - to some extent - on how much money we give the government. Dismantle the petty fiefdoms that exist in the "civil service" for little more reason than the egos of bureaucrats, and make 'em work for a living... Congresscritters get enough "fringe" benefits, so cut their pay as well. It's called "civil service" for a reason, I think...

5-90[/QUOTE]

http://fairtax.org/ May or may not be the best answer, but more fair than what we have now.

[5-90]

http://fairtax.org/ May or may not be the best answer, but more fair than what we have now.

Interesting... I've tried to follow the NRST (National Retail Sales Tax) debate, but I've lost track over the last couple years due to other concerns.

It's not the best answer - but it's the best answer available, and can be reformed afterwards, I think. I'm all for abolishing the IRS and closing loopholes in 26CFR - and if this gets rid of the need to file annual returns as well (I haven't read the entire FAQ yet,) then it's DEFINITELY a step in the right direction! The damn 1040 makes analytic trigonometry look easy...

5-90

[Ironmen77]

http://72.20.140.231/video/FNCHAC080205.wmv

watch this it's a good start at an understanding it.

[5-90]

Another intersting point - I'll have to check my historical notes, but I seem to recall that the Sixteenth Amendment (Income Taxation) was only ratified by FOUR states, which makes it (under Constitutional Law) null and void.

Moreover (I'd have to dig up my notes on this as well,) the only income that is legally subject to Federal income taxation is income collected by United States citizens who are NOT subject to current state income taxation regulations - even if that state does not collect income taxes. Therefore, only if your earn income in Washington, D. C., United States possessions, or on military installations (which are, technically, federal property - and therefore not subject to state income taxation...) are legally required to pay income tax.

IOW, you are required to pay one or the other - but not both, under current tax regulations (26CFR for Federal.) Interesting that such an enourmous fiction has been pulled over on us all for so long...

I don't see how the can prosecute Federally for "tax evasion" when most Americans aren't required to pay Federal income taxes anyhow...

5-90

[Ironmen77]

Everyone should read the "Fair Tax" book. It is well researched, thought out and they tried to answer any "catches" you can think of. Taxed only when you purchase new items, no tax on used goods.

[5-90]

Everyone should read the "Fair Tax" book. It is well researched, thought out and they tried to answer any "catches" you can think of. Taxed only when you purchase new items, no tax on used goods.

You know, state sales tax is supposed to be administered the same way.

So why do I have to pay state SALES tax on a used vehicle, in addition to first registration?

5-90

[Roxtar]

throwing poo at the opposite party/parties solves nothing.Yea, but it's just so damn fun. :D
What? You thought a stupid jeep forum was going to solve something? :doh:

[goodburbon]

Jon you asked the other day, and this is where 5-90 ism comes from. I agree with 99% of what you put out there, and you're terribly articluate about it. This makes you ripe for selection as the next big Political entity.

Sometimes you can be a bit long winded, but that just goes with the territory sometimes.

[boise49ers]

Jon you asked the other day, and this is where 5-90 ism comes from. I agree with 99% of what you put out there, and you're terribly articluate about it. This makes you ripe for selection as the next big Political entity.

Sometimes you can be a bit long winded, but that just goes with the territory sometimes.
That is 2 votes for 5-90. At least get Arney out of office then you can go for the White House from there.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[OT]

He'd have the longest speeches in history.
His state of the union addresses would be cut off with music, just like Academy Award winners.

[boise49ers]

He'd have the longest speeches in history.
His state of the union addresses would be cut off with music,
just like Academy Award winners.
Just a keep ramblin on ! I wouldn't understand half
the words either , but it would sound good.
That would be good for Foreign Policies. Just baffle
them with Bullshit. It would definetly be an improvement.:spin3:

[SBrad001]

Yea, but it's just so damn fun. :D
What? You thought a stupid jeep forum was going to solve something? :doh:

Where else are people with differing political views going to discuss these very topics?

Generally, people of like minded views cling to one another in order re-affirm those views. Which inturn leads to the 'Us vs Them' mentality of the extreme Right and Left(which does us more harm than good as a nation). And by being able to discuss politics, queer marriage, religon . . .etc here, we fight that group mentality.

I think that's a good thing.

[OT]

You mean like, us XJ owners, versus them?
I love that we aren't all alike, but we have common enthusiasm for other things, which makes us us.
Where else would a terribly rude, Atheist, liberal Republican find this?
That's why I love this club.

[5-90]

I can't help it - I like to teach. Sometimes, I end up presenting entirely too much information at the time - but most people find it useful later.

Don't ask me a question if you don't have time for the answer. I'll tell you a couple variation of what will work - and why - and then several variations of what won't work - and why not. It's just who I are...

5-90

[SBrad001]

. . . liberal Republican. . . .


Is that anything like a smart Marine? Because I didn't know that either of those existed! :D

[OT]

"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Navy Officer's Guide Book, late 1800's
That's a great signature.:D:thumbup:

[hologram]

i am neither republican nor democrat, they both have their goods and bads, however other never wins, therefor i vote for the party that has their views closest to mine. those who will voice the opinion of the people and do what we want.

[jpars]

Anti-Bush Moderate Independent

[goodburbon]

Anti-Bush Moderate Independent

Yeah, we noticed. Lose the anti-bush, it only makes you look like an idiot to all bush loving conservatives. If you were to just put "moderate independent" you could likely draw some republicans to seeing your way.

BTW did anyone notice that bush didn't lie. WMD's were indeed found in Iraq.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

but.........well I know.....he's a liar, so am I, so are you, get over it. If I were president I would lie to you too, it's part of the job, and not a strictly republican trait. "no new taxes", "I didn't inhale" " I did not have sex with that woman" there are literally hundreds more from both sides of the isle if you care to dig a little bit.

[NRT_Chris]

Fox news reports WMD's found... Thats a shock. They are not exactally the most impartial news source. I don't think 500 left over chemical weapons is a good reason to destroy a country. I can remember a big lie from bush's first campaign. He said that he was not going to spend time and money on "nation building". "No new taxes" was a bush sr. lie. The other ones were Clinton. The Rep. impeached Clinton for lieing about getting head from a fat chick. What should we do about bush illeagelly tapping our phones?

[goodburbon]

I have stated before that I am "other", you're barking up the wrong tree. Party delusions of "illegal wire tapping", but illegal immigrants are "migrant workers" make me wonder just how ignorant people are. A few points.

1. I don't give a flip who is in office, but they had better well be doing more than tapping INTERNATIONAL phone calls to find terrorists.

2. Democrat whining without acceptable alternatives PUSHES me to vote the other way! I would have voted for a libertarian if It were not for John Kerry. I was forced to vote for the guy who at least had balls enough to stick by what he said, wether or not I thought it was the right thing, at least Bush let you know what he was really about. Kerry complained about corporations and outsourcing.....his wife is a frickin millionaire from a company who has half of their products made in mexico, WTF?

3. The democratic radio network also said they had found WMD's but that it was all the Republicans fault(of course).....DUH we gave them to Saddam, that is how we KNEW he had them. We supplied our enemies enemy in the 1980s, bad policy.

4. The typical democrat response of "Of couse FOX news reported that" is getting old. Refute the facts, not the fact that they were reported........you can't. So those weapons don't count because you prefer a different news outlet? If it were untrue the other networks would jump on FOX like flies on Poo......they haven't. I prefer NO slant, so I read a bit of everything, you would be surprised how eye-opening it can be.

I know you think I am some right wing nut or something, I'm not. Read a bit outside of your normal "box" and find that the truth is somewhere in between.

[NRT_Chris]

I dont think your a right wing nut... You havn't started waving a bible at me yet! So in your opinion its ok that bush ILLEAGALLY tapped international calls? Thats what the caps. seem to suggest.I know you say you'er other but both links you posted looked liked Rep. based sites. If you posted one link to fox new and another to a more liberal site (oops did i say the L word) you mite seem more "other". Im glad they found something after all this time we have been there. Its good to see my Tax dollars at work.

I am a Dem. but I dont agree with everything they say. It just seems most of the time i do.

[5-90]

3. The democratic radio network also said they had found WMD's but that it was all the Republicans fault(of course).....DUH we gave them to Saddam, that is how we KNEW he had them. We supplied our enemies enemy in the 1980s, bad policy.

True, but that wasn't the first time. Think back to the 1970's, with the Russians invading Afghanistan (which was often considered "The Russian version of Vietnam.")

Osama bin Laden was a key figure in the Mujahadeen (sp?), and we supplied, funded, and trained him in resisting the Russian invasion. Stinger missiles, small arms, ordnance, light vehicles - we supplied him and his boyz more than their own people did. We also trained him in "nation-building," and trained his people in tactics and operations.

Segue thirty years or so - apart from pure terror tactics, Osama and his ilk are essentially using our own playbook against us. Why he's succeeding, I'm not sure - if we trained him, seems we'd have a handle on his core tactics, no?

So, yes, we may have supplied WMDs to Saddam for some reason (probably trying to "stabilise the region," since the House of bin Saud isn't playing ball with us anymore.) Yes, we knew they were there, since they hadn't been used. Yes, it was probably a good idea to go get them back, since Husssein wasn't playing ball with us anymore. But this wasn't the first time for something like that...

5-90

[sixditchoffroad]

I grew up thinking that because my family was Democrat then I was also Democrat. As a man of 18, I joined the Army, I started paying attention to politics and our nation. I soon realized that I was in fact a Republican. What an astounding understanding. My Father, who wasn't able to raise me the way a father should due to mental illness would, over the years, drop hints that I should change my political views, while my mother who had been a democrat all her life would argue with the television. I chose to shut it all out and ignore my great country and the privilege I had as a citizen of these Great United States of America. Through out my entire family tree, I had men that served these Great United States of America. In every war, from as far back as WWI, I had a relative willing to give to his nation. As my father passed away in 2001 I realized that the ideals of the Republican Party were my ideals. I believe in smaller government, lower taxes, and the moral standards that we as Christians must adhear to. I fell in love with our President George W. Bush, and I fell in love with America. For the first time in my life, I understood the sacrifices that were made to keep me and my family FREE!!! And what an awesome responsibility it is to be a citizen of these Great United States of America. The passing of a Great Man to all Americans, President Ronald Reagan, has given me greater resolve to support our President, and to LET FREEDOM REIGN in America. Thanks be to God, through my prayer and change of heart my mother has now also changed her views and become what God always intended her to be a Republican!! To those who oppose this War on Terror and the resolve to protect, defend, and help all those that are oppressed by terror, to them I say... Pray that you are never in an oppressive situation where your Freedom and Liberty are taken away. March on President Bush, March on... aaron

[boise49ers]

Here he is NRT. Can't miss him. By the way Six Ditch I have blood in every war since the Civil where my family helped abolish slavery. There are a lot of Republicans who still think that was a bad idea. Trust me we know where you are coming from just realize where we are coming from too partner. So you basically go with an eye for an eye, lets act like the Mideast countries for the last 10 thousand years and just kill any thing that doesn't read our New testament. Well shoot me down brother. We are alot different thru and thru.


I grew up thinking that because my family was Democrat then I was also Democrat. As a man of 18, I joined the Army, I started paying attention to politics and our nation. I soon realized that I was in fact a Republican. What an astounding understanding. My Father, who wasn't able to raise me the way a father should due to mental illness would, over the years, drop hints that I should change my political views, while my mother who had been a democrat all her life would argue with the television. I chose to shut it all out and ignore my great country and the privilege I had as a citizen of these Great United States of America. Through out my entire family tree, I had men that served these Great United States of America. In every war, from as far back as WWI, I had a relative willing to give to his nation. As my father passed away in 2001 I realized that the ideals of the Republican Party were my ideals. I believe in smaller government, lower taxes, and the moral standards that we as Christians must adhear to. I fell in love with our President George W. Bush, and I fell in love with America. For the first time in my life, I understood the sacrifices that were made to keep me and my family FREE!!! And what an awesome responsibility it is to be a citizen of these Great United States of America. The passing of a Great Man to all Americans, President Ronald Reagan, has given me greater resolve to support our President, and to LET FREEDOM REIGN in America. Thanks be to God, through my prayer and change of heart my mother has now also changed her views and become what God always intended her to be a Republican!! To those who oppose this War on Terror and the resolve to protect, defend, and help all those that are oppressed by terror, to them I say... Pray that you are never in an oppressive situation where your Freedom and Liberty are taken away. March on President Bush, March on... aaron

[Roxtar]

Well, this thread has gotten really boring.
Unsubing and moving on.

[jeeplas]

Suck my nut.
The right one, not the left, you left wing, limp wristed, crybaby, ACLU lovin, America bashin, lazy-ass welfare recipient supportin, flag burnin, green fuel sniffin, homo lovin, God hatin, Clinton ball suckin, tree huggin, Clinton vagy lickin, pachouli stinkin, crime OKin, terrorist understandin, Susan Sarandon cheerin, enviro-terrorist agreein, Michael Moore lie acceptin, hybrid drivin, mother earth tit suckin, Al Gore ass kissin, commie pinko bitch. :moon:

:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/kid4lyf/democraticseal.jpg

x2

[TRNDRVR]

Well, this thread has gotten really boring.
Unsubing and moving on.Really!

I'm taking my stir stick and going home. :D

http://www.timbercrawler.com/bb/images/smiles/5popcorn.gif

[boise49ers]

x2

And I thought you guys never cut and run :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[fourwhldrv]

Yeah, we noticed. Lose the anti-bush, it only makes you look like an idiot to all bush loving conservatives. If you were to just put "moderate independent" you could likely draw some republicans to seeing your way.

BTW did anyone notice that bush didn't lie. WMD's were indeed found in Iraq.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

but.........well I know.....he's a liar, so am I, so are you, get over it. If I were president I would lie to you too, it's part of the job, and not a strictly republican trait. "no new taxes", "I didn't inhale" " I did not have sex with that woman" there are literally hundreds more from both sides of the isle if you care to dig a little bit.

Yeah, well saying Anti-Bush is just as bad as saying Bush-Loving. I don't love any President. It's a job. He or she wanted it. They got it. Now, do the work...minimize the BS. I respect the office. (Like the military: I respect the office without feeling--one way or the other--for those who fill it. Just fulfill your responsibility!)

AND last time I checked there were 535 Members of Congress who have contributed to virtually every failure & success of this or any administration.

Even labeling ourselves as Republican or Democrat is getting to be ridiculous. Too many folks are now equating being Democrat with being law-abiding or respectful of human diginity, and being Republican with being a God-fearing person and being Christian. Please. Being Republican or Democrat is about politics. About how the government should function is folk's daily & work lives.

Political parties only mix in religion or human rights when it is advantageous to them. When it comes to government, these things are a political maneuver; not a mantra. We give most favored nation status to China in spite of their human rights violations because "it's the economy, stupid."

Follow the money and you'll discover your party's political platform.

I'm an American and I vote my conscience, not my party.

I am an American who happens to be a registered Republican; but, I've been so disappointed in the folks the RNC has put up for election recently, I have not voted for a Republican President since G.H.W. Bush (The first Bush, and only the first time around). I was particularly upset that the RNC obviously wanted G.W. over John McCain...big mistake in my opinion.

BUT don't get confused, I haven't voted for any of the jokers the Dems put up either. I've been voting Independent quite a lot the past 10-15 years. That might seem like a waste to some folks, but I vote for the guy/gal I want in office.

Besides, I live in the People's Republic of Maryland. Being a Republican here basically makes you an anthema. Hell, until the last Gubernatorial election we hadn't had a Republican Governor for almost 40 years...since Spiro Agnew. Anybody around here remember him???

Voting Republican in Maryland is like peeing in the ocean and hoping it'll rise...but you do it anyway.

OK, that's enough politics.

DJ

[streetpirate]

firm follower of the third option, 5-90ism.

[NRT_Chris]

I grew up thinking that because my family was Democrat then I was also Democrat. As a man of 18, I joined the Army, I started paying attention to politics and our nation. I soon realized that I was in fact a Republican. What an astounding understanding. My Father, who wasn't able to raise me the way a father should due to mental illness would, over the years, drop hints that I should change my political views, while my mother who had been a democrat all her life would argue with the television. I chose to shut it all out and ignore my great country and the privilege I had as a citizen of these Great United States of America. Through out my entire family tree, I had men that served these Great United States of America. In every war, from as far back as WWI, I had a relative willing to give to his nation. As my father passed away in 2001 I realized that the ideals of the Republican Party were my ideals. I believe in smaller government, lower taxes, and the moral standards that we as Christians must adhear to. I fell in love with our President George W. Bush, and I fell in love with America. For the first time in my life, I understood the sacrifices that were made to keep me and my family FREE!!! And what an awesome responsibility it is to be a citizen of these Great United States of America. The passing of a Great Man to all Americans, President Ronald Reagan, has given me greater resolve to support our President, and to LET FREEDOM REIGN in America. Thanks be to God, through my prayer and change of heart my mother has now also changed her views and become what God always intended her to be a Republican!! To those who oppose this War on Terror and the resolve to protect, defend, and help all those that are oppressed by terror, to them I say... Pray that you are never in an oppressive situation where your Freedom and Liberty are taken away. March on President Bush, March on... aaron


Spoken like a true Bible thumping Republican. This is a fine example of what is wrong with the party. It almost has the feeling like its patriotic to be a Christian. This is one reason even though i do not agree with all democratic policy i can't vote republican. You let your religious "VALUES" cloud your common sense. Thats how most republicans i talk to are. We invaded Iraq looking fo WMD's Not trying to free an oppressed culture. Thats one thing that will lead U.S. to another embarressing defeat like Viet Nam. We are not fighting a evil country, We are fighting cultural beliefs.

March on President Bush Just take the toilet paper off your shoe first.

[Sniggs]

I choose other as in "Abstain"

[SBrad001]

Spoken like a true Bible thumping Republican. This is a fine example of what is wrong with the party. It almost has the feeling like its patriotic to be a Christian. This is one reason even though i do not agree with all democratic policy i can't vote republican. You let your religious "VALUES" cloud your common sense. Thats how most republicans i talk to are. We invaded Iraq looking fo WMD's Not trying to free an oppressed culture. Thats one thing that will lead U.S. to another embarressing defeat

Dude, I think he was being satirical. . . I think.

[NRT_Chris]

Dude, I think he was being satirical. . . I think.


You think?? I may have missed that. If i did, Sorry..

[JohnJohn]

Libertarian at heart, but I know they will never win, so I vote Republican.

I figure we all have 10 issues that drive our votes. Just figure out which side sits with you on your top 5 and swing the hammer. How hard is that?

1) National Defense
2) Tax cuts for the rich fawkers (trickle down eco works)
3) Capitalism > Liberalism. Republicans = Capitalists
4) Gun Control (ps: I don't own one)
5) Iraq: Saddam needed to go, I'm with Bush
6) Foreign Policy: Condi runs circles around Albrecht
7) Unions: Do flight attendants REALLY need one? The rule should be, while at work, if something you breath can kill you, or something larger than a small car can fall on you, you need one. Grocery workers, Teachers, and Flight attendants can look to capitalism to solve their issues.
8) Immigration (I side with republicans not my President, YES he is my President)
9) Abortion: I don't like it but, It's not my duty to tell you what to like.
10) Gay Marriage: Nah: Civil Unions, better option, if Steve wants to get health coverage for Gary, I really could care less

<XJEEPER, consider my bandwidth wasted, but I'm sitting up straighter in my chair now>

[boise49ers]

Dude, I think he was being satirical. . . I think.

You think?? I may have missed that. If i did, Sorry..
Nope,just read the post. He was coming from his heart. Some people need that and from the way his life was when he was younger God is probably the one constant and I can respect that. It just doesn't and shouldn't have anything to do with policy making in our government just like NRT said. It makes for bad Government and our for-fathers knew that from the countries they came here to escape. It is to bad we can't see that now. Funny how man repeats the same bad mistakes over and over. It will be our Doom for sure.

[5-90]

1) National Defense
2) Tax cuts for the rich fawkers (trickle down eco works)
3) Capitalism > Liberalism. Republicans = Capitalists
4) Gun Control (ps: I don't own one)
5) Iraq: Saddam needed to go, I'm with Bush
6) Foreign Policy: Condi runs circles around Albrecht
7) Unions: Do flight attendants REALLY need one? The rule should be, while at work, if something you breath can kill you, or something larger than a small car can fall on you, you need one. Grocery workers, Teachers, and Flight attendants can look to capitalism to solve their issues.
8) Immigration (I side with republicans not my President, YES he is my President)
9) Abortion: I don't like it but, It's not my duty to tell you what to like.
10) Gay Marriage: Nah: Civil Unions, better option, if Steve wants to get health coverage for Gary, I really could care less

OK...

1) National Defense. I'd much rather have a smaller, yet better-trained, -equipped, and -motivated fighting force than an 800-pound gorilla; like we've got now. I don't give a damn about "retention" and "recruitment" figures - since it seems that most of the people we're "retaining" and "recruiting" aren't worth a damn. Military training should be designed to fail people, or make them DOR (Drop On Request.) Period. Full Stop. If it's not hideously difficult, we're doing it wrong. Frankly, not only would I like to see a "failure rate" among trainees, but I don't think a "mortality rate" of 5% or so would be out of line - have them sign a waiver when they sign the enlistment contract. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

2) Tax cuts PERIOD. Reducing the overall tax burden will effectively revalue the dollar in an upward direction, simply because buying power will improve. For this reason, I am also not an advocate of the "Mandated Minimum Wage" - increasing it drives up the costs of production and devalues the dollar, and therefore makes the poor poorer (because, although they're getting a few more dollars, that is more than offset by the reduced purchasing power caused by increased costs of production. The only people who win when FMW goes up is the people collecting the taxes, and they've bullshitted everyone else into thinking that it's a good thing. Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.)

3) Capitalism may be greater than Liberalism, but I have a hard time equating most Republicans with Capitalism. If they were capitalists, I don't think we'd be in the economic CF we are now - reference my other posts on the subject.

4) Gun control means using both hands. There should be no restrictions on the ownership of small arms - eliminating them would effectively eliminate people who should not own them, since their actions would catch up with them. In that vein, we should work on getting rid of "Let 'Em Loose, Bruce" in the black robes - if you screw up badly enough, you should be cast out of society. I favour the Vermont model - we're not going to issue you permits to exercise your rights. Carry what you want, how you want, when you want, and where you want, and we're only going to bother you when you use it, to make sure you didn't do anything wrong...

5) Mixed feelings here. I was over in 1991 as part of "Sound and Fury," and I don't see why we didn't finish the job. Once 2/5 Marines were in, we remained in the area, and had Saddam nailed down to within 24-48 hour lag. I could have had his head in DC withing 60 hours of getting a "go" order. The worst thing you can do to a mortal enemy is almost kill him...

6) Foreign policy. Look out for American interests overseas, and work to eliminate the "trade deficit" we've been carrying for the last 15-20 years.

7) Unions. They had their time and place, but I don't think that's extended to "here and now." The NLRA and OSHA are doing (quite!) enough in the workplace, y'ask me. Granted, with all the "profit motive" going on, collective bargaining can be useful - but if we had a truly "free market," the problems would be self-correcting. It would just take a little longer...

8) Immigration. If you want to come over here, there are ways to do so legally. Come over illegally, and get sent back. While we're about it, stop sending them to TJ - since that makes it all the easier for them to come back (especially illegals from points south of Mexico.) Drop them off at Tierra del Fuego... I don't care if they "just want to work" - let them come over the right way. If you don't have a Green Card and/or aren't a citizen, you don't get social services of any particular version, either.

9) I have a disagreement with abortion as a means of "retroactive birth control," when condoms are far cheaper. However, it's also a "privacy" issue, and I don't see where I'd get off telling anyone what to do with their body that they haven't agreed to in return. Besides, you can't "uninvent" something - it's around, and it's GOING to be around. Let the AMA see about putting a stop to abortion willy-nilly - I'd like to see it reduced to "medical or psychological necessity," but I'm not going to hold my breath, and it's not my place to say.

10) Gay marriage - why all the fuss? Granted, I sometimes wonder about the proliferation of the "gay lifestyle" (face it, it's biologically self-defeating!) but gay men simply meant more women for me. Lesbians were a small stumbling block, but not something I couldn't try to work around...

So, RATE ME! Where do I fall on the scale...?

5-90

[Ivan]

I lean towards "other", or in my terms "American". I don't take stock in political parties as each has something to offer that meets my political criteria. The one that weighs in best at my beliefs at the time, is the one I vote for... :patriot:

[JohnJohn]

So, RATE ME! Where do I fall on the scale...?

5-90

Not sure the purpose behind your post. I was responding to the thread starter. If it was to change my mind, you're not going to change my mind. I don't think a response from me will help anyone.

I figure we all have 10 issues that drive our votes. Just figure out which side sits with you on your top 5 and swing the hammer. How hard is that?

Again, choose which party matches up with most of YOUR top ten and swing the hammer. :wave1:

PS: I think you’re a Libertarian

[5-90]

Not sure the purpose behind your post. I was responding to the thread starter. If it was to change my mind, you're not going to change my mind. I don't think a response from me will help anyone.
PS: I think you’re a Libertarian

Not at all trying to change your mind - two things people need to convince themselves on are religion and politics. Just wondering where I fit into your weltschanauug...

If that "Libertarian" line is directed at me, it's probably pretty close. I probably don't fit much with the "current" definition of Libertarian, but more with the "classic" definition. Since neither party really lines up with my views (as I see them...) I usually vote "Abstain" when the time comes. Go in, get a ballot logged, and cast it empty (except I will typically vote against any bond issues out of hand - they typically end up overrunning budget and cost more money than they should.)

5-90

[JohnJohn]

Not at all trying to change your mind - two things people need to convince themselves on are religion and politics. Just wondering where I fit into your weltschanauug...

If that "Libertarian" line is directed at me, it's probably pretty close. I probably don't fit much with the "current" definition of Libertarian, but more with the "classic" definition. Since neither party really lines up with my views (as I see them...) I usually vote "Abstain" when the time comes. Go in, get a ballot logged, and cast it empty (except I will typically vote against any bond issues out of hand - they typically end up overrunning budget and cost more money than they should.)

5-90
Yup it was for you.

I just didn’t want you take it personally if I didn’t respond line for line. :)

I consider my self a Libertarian, but a Realist Libertarian which makes me a Republican. :)

[goodburbon]

So, RATE ME! Where do I fall on the scale...?

5-90

I'd say that sounds like the 5-90ist principles. Libertarians with additudes.

[TRNDRVR]

!!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1

[boise49ers]

!!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1 !!!1
Yeah, but it is fun :moon:

[TRNDRVR]

Yeah, but it is fun :moon:You're wrong!

Religious threads are fun. :thumbup:

Someone needs to start one of those. I haven't bashed the all mighty 'figment of the imagination' in a long time.

I kind of feel better already. Thanks!

[JohnJohn]

You're wrong!

Religious threads are fun. :thumbup:

Someone needs to start one of those. I haven't bashed the all mighty 'figment of the imagination' in a long time.

I kind of feel better already. Thanks!

If you’re gonna tout Darwin and evolution...come one dude, your ancestors and mine would not have survived any kind of famine. :D

[TRNDRVR]

If you’re gonna tout Darwin and evolution...come one dude, your ancestors and mine would not have survived any kind of famine. :D
Crow shit on a fence post and the sun hatched me out. You?

[boise49ers]

You're wrong!

Religious threads are fun. :thumbup:

Someone needs to start one of those. I haven't bashed the all mighty 'figment of the imagination' in a long time.

I kind of feel better already. Thanks!
Yeah lets go. Lets get 500 posts out of this baby. Hey God makes them all feel better about when the "Big One Comes". I'm OK with the fact when I'm gone the ball games over for me. Some other asshole will take my place, like my 18 old clone of a son.
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:peace: Brother's

[TRNDRVR]

Yeah lets go. Lets get 500 posts out of this baby. Hey God makes them all feel better about when the "Big One Comes". I'm OK with the fact when I'm gone the ball games over for me. Some other asshole will take my place, like my 18 old clone of a son.
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
:peace: Brother's
When I go, I want to be burned and flushed down the toilet. :thumbup:

If the mexican dude is down there, then I'll believe. :dunno:

[Trail-Axe]

I vote for the man I think best represents my values and core beliefs for what would make America great.

[8Mud]

Are you a Democrat,Republican or Southern Republican?
Here is a little test that will help you decide.

The answer can be found by posing the following question:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a knife comes around the corner, screams obscenities, praises Allah, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock Cal 40. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Democrat's Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun, what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.

Republican's Answer:
BANG!

Southern Republican's Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.....(sounds of reloading).
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?

Son: Git-r-Dun Pop! Can I shoot the next one!

Wife: You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!

[oo7ravisXJ]

haha nice.

But, Im registered Republican because I like things more traditional/conservative for the most part, but like Trail Axe said, I'll vote for the candidate that I agree with the most. Ron Paul for Pres. wink wink

[jeeperjohn]

I'm a consiberal republicrat and damn proud of it man!

[jeeperjohn]

haha nice.

But, Im registered Republican because I like things more traditional/conservative for the most part, but like Trail Axe said, I'll vote for the candidate that I agree with the most. Rue Paul for Pres. wink wink
There I fixed it for ya! :D

[RichP]

Watched Glenn Beck last nite and he was interviewing two candidates, Milt from Massachusetts and Huckabee from Arkansas. Like Huckabee, common sense and no visions of godlike power that I saw, I had an open mind about Milt, UNTIL he asked Milt if he would turn the two border agents loose that shot that drug dealer in the ass. Milt did a nice well executed Fred Astaire dance around the issue, waffled with the best of them and avoided giving an answer, that response lost me on the spot, then I watched closer, guy blinks too much and he is now firmly entrenched in my mind as another weasel, not that I don't like weasels and ferrets you just have to keep them under control or they shit all over the house..
Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee so far have my interest on the republican side. Democrats, none so far, they are all slime buckets.

[jmowens]

8Mud, I'm definately a Southern Replublican!!
In my opinion, Fred is the ONLY candidate that actually understands the premises upon which our great country was founded. (Google Fred + Thompson + Federalism). But he just makes too much sense to get elected in my opinion.

People see him as "dodging the issues" when he doesn't answer with a "yes" or "no" that they see as the only answers. But then again, these same people think that we live in a Democracy!! To them I say, "Have you ever read the constitution, or do you just go by what someone told you it says?". (Before someone starts flaming, say the pledge of allegiance and realize that we are a Republic not a Democracy, and yes, there is a big difference!)

And to all who are making jokes about your creator, I believe, sirs, that it is time for you to find a new country. Perhaps France would be a good choice. Our founding fathers created a country where there is Freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion, and yes, the religion that they recognized was Christianity.

A couple of quotes for you to think over:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
--George Washington

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ."
--George Washington

Inscription on the Liberty Bell:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
--Benjamin Franklin

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
--Noah Webster

But then, I'm a dumb redneck from Alabama who obviously has no education and lacks the ability to understand the intents of our founding fathers! But I digress...

JM2CW

[SeansBlueXJ]

Vote then discuss you're stance and why.


I'm a republican. I don't agree with how libral the democrats are.


While not wholely Democrat, I dont agree with how consertavite Republicans are. Both have good ideas, but the Republicans do need to chill out a bit right now.

[Starscream]

Ron Paul Revolution! :D

But seriously, he'll get my vote. I don't think he fits on the Republican ticket, but then again he doesn't fit anywhere, so...

[jmowens]

Ron Paul Revolution! :D

But seriously, he'll get my vote. I don't think he fits on the Republican ticket, but then again he doesn't fit anywhere, so...
Wondered myself how he got on the Republican ticket. Maybe one of those right winged conspiracies to steal some of the Democrat's votes? :jester:

[BruceB83]

I'm conservative in most of my beliefs. I no longer claim the Republicans due to the lack of gonads and lack of push for what the supposedly believe in. Libertarian whether they get elected or not.

[RyanM]

I'm apolitical. Politicians get nothing done. Government is bloated and corrupt, bureaucracy is unbounded and this country is grossly mismanaged. Until there is a drastic change in which planning and accountability become the norm, I have no interest or faith in the way our country is run. I'm fiercely independent, and I know my vote doesn't count.

[TRNDRVR]

I voted Democrat. 'Other' never wins, and most of the Republicans I know are a bunch of chickenshit pussys. :gag:
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:




















:D:anon:

[jeeperjohn]

8Mud, I'm definately a Southern Replublican!!
In my opinion, Fred is the ONLY candidate that actually understands the premises upon which our great country was founded. (Google Fred + Thompson + Federalism). But he just makes too much sense to get elected in my opinion.

People see him as "dodging the issues" when he doesn't answer with a "yes" or "no" that they see as the only answers. But then again, these same people think that we live in a Democracy!! To them I say, "Have you ever read the constitution, or do you just go by what someone told you it says?". (Before someone starts flaming, say the pledge of allegiance and realize that we are a Republic not a Democracy, and yes, there is a big difference!)

And to all who are making jokes about your creator, I believe, sirs, that it is time for you to find a new country. Perhaps France would be a good choice. Our founding fathers created a country where there is Freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion, and yes, the religion that they recognized was Christianity.

A couple of quotes for you to think over:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
--George Washington

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ."
--George Washington

Inscription on the Liberty Bell:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
--Benjamin Franklin

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
--Noah Webster

But then, I'm a dumb redneck from Alabama who obviously has no education and lacks the ability to understand the intents of our founding fathers! But I digress...

JM2CW
Since you brought it up; there seems to be a belief in this country that if you are not some kind of christian there's something wrong with you. No doubt our country was founded on the principles of christianity, as are my own values and beliefs, but that doesn't mean that everyone here must be some kind of christian. It doesn't mean that everyone must even have a religion. There are many good people out there who don't believe in a "higher power" but rather they believe in more scientific explanations for our existance. Regardless of what you believe it is who you are as a person and what kind of values you hold for yourself that determine what kind of person you are. Those who believe there is no god have just about as much proof of their belief as those who believe there is a god. That is to say almost none. We have to understand we are a primitive species and as such are incapable of knowing all the answers.
That being said, I believe the intent of our forefathers was to ensure that the values and beliefs of the citizens of the USA remain based on the principles of christianity, not to require us to be christian. Remember that the reason our country was founded to begin with was to escape religious persecution across the pond.

[goodburbon]

Nice to see you posting dan.

[IndyXJ]

Ron Paul has ignited my interest again.

[sjd78]

Republican! And always will be! Slobbering Liberals are destroying this country and decaying the morals of our youth!

[XJEEPER]

I feel that I have the responsibility as a US Citizen to choose the one that will represent my values and have the spine to stand up to the career politicians and turn around our corrupt sitting government.

I want someone leading our country that will represent the will of We The People. I want someone who isn't afraid to do the right thing, regardless of who may think it's politically correct. I want someone who values human life, our God-given liberties and upholds our rights as per our Constitution..........don't think that's too much to ask for in the leader of the United States of America.


:patriot:

[JohnJohn]

I feel that I have the responsibility as a US Citizen to choose the one that will represent my values and have the spine to stand up to the career politicians and turn around our corrupt sitting government.

I want someone leading our country that will represent the will of We The People. I want someone who isn't afraid to do the right thing, regardless of who may think it's politically correct. I want someone who values human life, our God-given liberties and upholds our rights as per our Constitution..........don't think that's too much to ask for in the leader of the United States of America.


:patriot:

Alex P Keaton (the character, not actor that played him)

[8Mud]

I'm for whichever party does the least governing and implements the fewest laws.
One major flaw in the Constitution is they seemed to have failed to plan for the improvements in communication and the speed of the (modern) process.
They designed the Constitution to be slow and unwieldy on purpose. To slow the process as much as possible. Back then a letter could take weeks to travel a few hundred miles and even then they felt the need to slow the process. Think about it.

[Russ Pottenger]

I'm for whichever party does the least governing and implements the fewest laws.
One major flaw in the Constitution is they seemed to have failed to plan for the improvements in communication and the speed of the (modern) process.
They designed the Constitution to be slow and unwieldy on purpose. To slow the process as much as possible. Back then a letter could take weeks to travel a few hundred miles and even then they felt the need to slow the process. Think about it.
8Mud, agree with you on this one.
Many politicians have what I call "Do something disease".
Some sort of tragedy, natural disaster, or crime takes place, they (Politicians-Government) feel they have to come up with some new law, or regulation. One example comes to mind is Hate Crimes.
Lets say you killed somebody. They were of a minority race. Or maybe it turned out they were gay. There are laws in place that would cover that, without creating new ones.

[Starscream]

Republican! And always will be! Slobbering Liberals are destroying this country and decaying the morals of our youth!
I know right!? F*** acceptance and embracing change!

[8Mud]

I know right!? F*** acceptance and embracing change!
If the change is studied and not just change for the sake of change. New isn't necessarily better.
If the change is actually for the good of as many as possible and not just politically motivated, agenda or motivated by personal gain for one group over another. Which right there disqualifies most change.
Thomas Jefferson said (paraphrasing) if your pissed count to ten, if your really pissed count to a hundred.
The gospel by chuck, politics is like a woman, you change and head off in a new direction and you are just swapping one set of problems for another. The better solution is to stop, take stock and try to make what you have work, someway, somehow.

[jeeperjohn]

8Mud, agree with you on this one.
Many politicians have what I call "Do something disease".
Some sort of tragedy, natural disaster, or crime takes place, they (Politicians-Government) feel they have to come up with some new law, or regulation. One example comes to mind is Hate Crimes.
Lets say you killed somebody. They were of a minority race. Or maybe it turned out they were gay. There are laws in place that would cover that, without creating new ones.
I think we should scrap the vast majority of laws in the US and make judges become constitutional experts and authorities (like they are supposed to be now) and let them judge whether something violates our constitution. It seems the libs think they can write a law to cover any possible occurance. It can't be done. Someone has to interpret the law and make a decision. If we had a very basic legal system based on a few simple guidelines like the 10 commandments for example, it would streamline our legal system and make things far more efficient. Maybe this would only shift the burden to the appelate courts but it would relieve the workload from the lower courts.

[Starscream]

I think we should scrap the vast majority of laws in the US and make judges become constitutional experts and authorities (like they are supposed to be now) and let them judge whether something violates our constitution. It seems the libs think they can write a law to cover any possible occurance. It can't be done. Someone has to interpret the law and make a decision. If we had a very basic legal system based on a few simple guidelines like the 10 commandments for example, it would streamline our legal system and make things far more efficient. Maybe this would only shift the burden to the appelate courts but it would relieve the workload from the lower courts.
I agree with a streamlined law system, but not based on the 10 commandments. Based on The Constitution, yes. Separation of Church and State still doesn't seem to have happened in a lot of places and, IMO, freedom of religion means that the government of an entire country shouldn't be based on any single religion.

[Russ Pottenger]

I can't speak for John, but what I think point he was making, and I believe myself is that the simplicity of the 10 Commandments was intended to be a guide for moral behavior that has lasted for thousands of years. Likewise, our magnificent Constitution that we have had for just a few hundred years, should be our Governmental guide. The more we deviate from it, the less liberty we will have.

[Trail-Axe]

I agree with a streamlined law system, but not based on the 10 commandments.

Which of the Ten commandments do you disagre with?

[o2bgpn]

Which of the Ten commandments do you disagre with?

How about the first four (over 33% of the ten commandments)

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy

[Russ Pottenger]

How about the first four (over 33% of the ten commandments)

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
What is the point your trying to make in reference to the subject?

[o2bgpn]

I thought it was pretty obvious having referenced the persons quote in my reply. He asked a question, I answered it.

[Starscream]

Which of the Ten commandments do you disagre with?
I don't necessarily agree with the first few, but that's a moot point. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to follow those, but we should not be bound by laws following them. Sure, murder and stealing and things of the sort are bad, but that's a given.

[Trail-Axe]

I don't necessarily agree with the first few, but that's a moot point. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to follow those, but we should not be bound by laws following them. Sure, murder and stealing and things of the sort are bad, but that's a given.
Thanks for you input, and I appreciate your opinion. But why is it a given that murder and stealing are bad? If no one ever said they were bad, how would we know? And if the last five commands are given to teach us how to get along with each other, and that seems ok with most of us; why should we then ignore the first five that teach us how to get along with the One who gave all of them to us in the first place?


To o2bgpn:
I noticed you did not include the Fith commandment in your list of commands you disagree with, why is that?

"The fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise. "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee"
(Ex. 20:12).

[98XJSport]

But why is it a given that murder and stealing are bad? If no one ever said they were bad, how would we know?

Who says they are? Survival of the fittest :scottm:

[goodburbon]

Theological debate warning........

The first four don't apply because they work on the assumption that everyone belives in the same god.

The fifth works because there is a bond from generation to generationm no matter what religion you are.

The murder and theft ones apply because 95%+ of the people have a conscience, That conscience is an internal warning that is supposed to let you know when something is unacceptable. It is possible to have laws without gods, it is also possible to know right from wrong without supernatural influence. If it weren't there would be a helluva lot more atheists in jail.

[Trail-Axe]

Who says they are? Survival of the fittest :scottm:

My point exactly, but even the fittest of men may one day need someone to heal them. :cool:

[Starscream]

Theological debate warning........

The first four don't apply because they work on the assumption that everyone belives in the same god.

The fifth works because there is a bond from generation to generationm no matter what religion you are.

The murder and theft ones apply because 95%+ of the people have a conscience, That conscience is an internal warning that is supposed to let you know when something is unacceptable. It is possible to have laws without gods, it is also possible to know right from wrong without supernatural influence. If it weren't there would be a helluva lot more atheists in jail.
Could not have said it better myself. :thumbup:

[8Mud]

Thanks for you input, and I appreciate your opinion. But why is it a given that murder and stealing are bad? If no one ever said they were bad, how would we know? And if the last five commands are given to teach us how to get along with each other, and that seems ok with most of us; why should we then ignore the first five that teach us how to get along with the One who gave all of them to us in the first place?


To o2bgpn:
I noticed you did not include the Fith commandment in your list of commands you disagree with, why is that?

"The fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise. "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee"
(Ex. 20:12).


Look up the term translation fallacy. In effect it says an exact translation between two languages is almost impossible. And secondly, the original books of the Bible were in the language of that day and not of our day, language has evolved in meaning, context and complexity. For instance how would you say, gene splicing is forbidden in Americ or maybe don't mess with neutron accelerators.
Peoples unending search of absolutes is likely and largely a waste of time. Even math and physics are relative and not static.
The translators of the Bible likely had an agenda or at the very least a preconception.
A Calvinistic view of the Bible might be more appropriate, The fewer people between you and the source the more likelihood of the message being untainted.
The Basic foundation laid down in the Ten Commandments (found in two different books of the Bible that I know of and that don't read exactly the same), aren't a bad starting point lacking something better (perhaps the return of the Messiah).
Before you write off the commandments as being irrelevant, stop to think for thousands of years, billions of people have been trying to quantify something they know is there, but have been largely unsuccessful in explaining.

[IndyXJ]

You're not supposed to kill people? Whoops! :shhh:

Back on topic somewhat and yes, this is a plug.
Ron Paul is THE best option for maintaning our Constitution. Not a member of the CFR or other New World Order scum groups.

Anyway, google Ron Paul if you haven't already and make up your own mind.

Guiliani is using 9/11 like a !!!1 Huckabee would be better then him given the choice without Paul as an option.

I voted other since I see good on both sides.

[Starscream]

You're not supposed to kill people? Whoops! :shhh:

Back on topic somewhat and yes, this is a plug.
Ron Paul is THE best option for maintaning our Constitution. Not a member of the CFR or other New World Order scum groups.

Anyway, google Ron Paul if you haven't already and make up your own mind.

Guiliani is using 9/11 like a !!!1 Huckabee would be better then him given the choice without Paul as an option.

I voted other since I see good on both sides.
Ya, until Guiliani started campaigning I didn't realize how everything is a byproduct of 9/11.

[goodburbon]

Before you write off the commandments as being irrelevant, stop to think for thousands of years, billions of people have been trying to quantify something they know is there, but have been largely unsuccessful in explaining.


???? People who "Know" don't bother to quantify, they accept. The rest of us doubting Thomas' try to quantify, and end up with nothing, because without faith, there is no god.

[goodburbon]

There are a few people I can not and will not vote for.

Obama
Edwards
Clinton
Guilliani

I'd vote for Ron Paul in a heartbeat if he made the ballot, if not I just have to vote against those other humps.

[Stumpalump]

Suporting Ron Paul is like suporting Ross Perot. Great ideas but not enough mainstream suport to get elected. You have to think electability in a presidential primary election because a candidate needs to pull votes from all sides. Too bad but thats how the game is played.
Did you hear the Hildabeast today claiming that "some suporter" said some things that were bad so he resigned. She acted like it was no big deal. The so called "suporter" was her freaking right hand man for her campane! What a douch! Evertime that women runs her mouth lies and deception pour out. I think she's done. Looks like the Turd looking dude is on top but Edwards gained some much needed ground during the last Dimocrap dog and pony show debate.

[Starscream]

Suporting Ron Paul is like suporting Ross Perot. Great ideas but not enough mainstream suport to get elected. You have to think electability
I like to vote for the person I'd like to see in charge, not the one who is kissing the most ass and saying whatever he/she needs to to get in office.

[Trail-Axe]

The murder and theft ones apply because 95%+ of the people have a conscience, That conscience is an internal warning that is supposed to let you know when something is unacceptable. It is possible to have laws without gods; it is also possible to know right from wrong without supernatural influence. If it weren't there would be a helluva lot more atheists in jail.. Interesting view point. Are you sure that your good conscience is not from an external supernatural influence? And if you are sure, how do you know this?

..Internal warning that is supposed to let you know when something is unacceptable…
Unacceptable to who? And what happens when we ignore this internal warning system? Should we be punished? And who should punish us? And whose standard do we judge by; your internal warning system, or mine? And what is to say your internal warning system should be a moral absolute for my internal warning system that differs from yours?

And if today 95% of the people do what they feel is right, what happens tomorrow when they no longer feel it is right?

My point is this: If we ignore an absolute authority for what is good, and what is bad, we then become that authority. We have seen what man is very capable of if left to his own internal warning system for what is good, and what is bad. He will justify murder when it suits him, and condemn it when it does not. He will steel to keep himself satisfied, and condemn the same when it is taken from himself. So maybe it is an external supernatural warning system that should receive the credit for what is good, and what is bad, and not an internal system.

The word of God does speak on the subject of conscience, and to whom the conscience comes from:
Rom 2:12-16:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. NKJV

[Starscream]

[COLOR=black] We have seen what man is very capable of if left to his own internal warning system for what is good, and what is bad. He will justify murder when it suits him, and condemn it when it does not. He will steel to keep himself satisfied, and condemn the same when it is taken from himself.
This is already happening all over. It's not like it's going to change anytime soon, whether it be someone telling you quit because a God said so ages ago, or whether someone forces you to stop because it's known that it is wrong regardless.

My point: Who knows. I'm just arguing for the sake of it. But, a single religion should not rule a people when many of them do not agree with it.

[Trail-Axe]

This is already happening all over. It's not like it's going to change anytime soon, whether it be someone telling you quit because a God said so ages ago, or whether someone forces you to stop because it's known that it is wrong regardless.

My point: Who knows? I'm just arguing for the sake of it. But, a single religion should not rule a people when many of them do not agree with it.

I agree, religion should not rule a people, but maybe people who are religious can. And there have been entire societies that did change their ways for good, when they came to know the one who truly is good, Jesus Christ. Watch this movie and see how: http://www.endofthespear.com/ (http://www.endofthespear.com/) I have met two key players in this movie. The boy whose father was speared, and the man who speared him. Both are changed as a result of an outside supernatural force speaking through man.

[Starscream]

I agree, religion should not rule a people, but maybe people who are religious can. And there have been entire societies that did change their ways for good, when they came to know the one who truly is good, Jesus Christ. Watch this movie and see how: http://www.endofthespear.com/ (http://www.endofthespear.com/) I have met two key players in this movie. The boy whose father was speared, and the man who speared him. Both are changed as a result of an outside supernatural force speaking through man.
I hope one day that someone religious can rule without pushing their beliefs on the people they govern. And on that note, I think it's time for some Call of Duty 4. :D

[goodburbon]

Interesting view point. Are you sure that your good conscience is not from an external supernatural influence? And if you are sure, how do you know this? I cannot disprove your theory. I also cannot disprove that invisible faries don't control the fate of the universe, does that make it true?


Unacceptable to who? Majority rules in society, you know this. And what happens when we ignore this internal warning system? It's called guilt. Should we be punished? it depends on the offense. And who should punish us? It depends on the offense And whose standard do we judge by; your internal warning system, or mine? Majority rules, as stated before And what is to say your internal warning system should be a moral absolute for my internal warning system that differs from yours? My internal warning system is not yours, everyones system is programmed by their parents/surroundings except in cases of sociopaths. Parents teach what they know. Society guides the knowledge of the parents.

And if today 95% of the people do what they feel is right, what happens tomorrow when they no longer feel it is right? You feel "guilt" You cannot change the past, what are you asking?

My point is this: If we ignore an absolute authority for what is good, and what is bad, we then become that authority. We have seen what man is very capable of if left to his own internal warning system for what is good, and what is bad. He will justify murder when it suits him, and condemn it when it does not. He will steel to keep himself satisfied, and condemn the same when it is taken from himself. So maybe it is an external supernatural warning system that should receive the credit for what is good, and what is bad, and not an internal system. If that is truly what you beleive, you're also saying that protestant religions are bad because they changed the way things were originally intended to be? The simple fact is that people changed god to suit themselves better.

The word of God does speak on the subject of conscience, and to whom the conscience comes from:
Rom 2:12-16:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. NKJV



The "word of God" is quite simply, not. I will not tell you that you are wrong. Everyone believes differently and that gives us a good moral mix to define what simple laws are "universal"

Thou shall not kill
Thou shall not bear false witness etc.

Anything superficial about a diety is unacceptable as universal law

[Trail-Axe]

And if today 95% of the people do what they feel is right, what happens tomorrow when they no longer feel it is right?


goodburbon: You feel "guilt" You cannot change the past, what are you asking?

Mr. Goodburbon,

I respect what you have said, and you have asked some real good questions that I will try to answer. What I am asking is this: There comes a day when one no longer feels guilty about doing something bad that he has done over and over. I'm sure you can remember a time when your "internal warning system" told you something was wrong. But you did it anyways. And you kept on doing it until you no longer felt guilty about doing it. Then you may have even taken it to the next step and told others it was cool. We have all done this at one time or another. And as a society, the change from what was once good, and what was once bad, happens the same way. I'm sure I do not need to give any examples of this, as I feel you are a very thoughtful person, with enough time under your belt to have seen this for yourself.

So my point is; if there is no moral absolute, as in God and His laws, then we are left to our own "majority rules" concept of living. It may work today, but after a period of time, it will fail. One need only study history to see this. Some people believe that man is basically good. If that is true, then why are some men bad? And why would any good man ever do anything bad? But we all know that truly bad men can do something good, and still be looked at as bad men. For example, someone who is always truthful can not lie and after be known as a truthful person; but a liar can say something that is true and still be known as a liar. And if man were basically good, then why do we need to teach our children not to lie, steal, or be selfish?

So I submit that since we can see that man does not start out as basically good, but bad, and absent any moral upbringing will do as he sees fit; then we had better be very sure that our system of what is right and what is wrong is not based on how we feel today, or the majority rules factor, but on something much more solid and absolute then that. And I suggest that something be the teachings of Jesus Christ. :)

Goodburbon wrote: If that is truly what you believe, you're also saying that protestant religions are bad because they changed the way things were originally intended to be? Not sure I understand where you are coming from here my friend. Before I attempt to answer this question, please elaborate on what you mean by “things were originally intended to be.” Specifically; what things, and who?

Goodburbon wrote:The simple fact is that people changed god to suit themselves better. I agree, but could this be a result of relying on the internal warning system as apposed to the external warning system? When man decides what is right and wrong, he places himself in God’s place.


I am pleased that we are able to have a discussion about politics and religion, and remain gentlemen. But it seems we may have hijacked this thread and made it into a discussion on morals and religion. I am open for anyone’s suggestion on how this topic might continue, or even not continue if that be the wish.
:cheers:

[Russ Pottenger]

I hope one day that someone religious can rule without pushing their beliefs on the people they govern. And on that note, I think it's time for some Call of Duty 4. :D
Those of us that are Conservative and hold Judeo Christian values, have been asking the same of the Secular Progressives.

[97CountryXJ]

Republimocratipendantonservatistiberalocialistiree
naborertatrianioneformatriotgressivist. (all smashed together)
American......:yap:

[sjd78]

I know right!? F*** acceptance and embracing change!

What exactly is this supposed to mean anyways?

[goodburbon]

What exactly is this supposed to mean anyways?

That was sarcasm.


as for this.
Quote:
Goodburbon wrote: If that is truly what you believe, you're also saying that protestant religions are bad because they changed the way things were originally intended to be?
Not sure I understand where you are coming from here my friend. Before I attempt to answer this question, please elaborate on what you mean by “things were originally intended to be.” Specifically; what things, and who?

1. You believe that Christ was the messiah and is the figurehead of your religion. From the manner in which you type I have done something dumb, I have made an assumption. That assumption is that you are protestant. Protestant religion itself is an example of what you warn against: suddenly "God's Absolute laws" were not being adhered to correctly according to Martin Luthers internal voice, so he started a religious revolution. Somehow the "word of God" lost a book or 2 when it made the jump from the Catholic church to the Protestant faiths.



Quote:
Goodburbon wrote:The simple fact is that people changed god to suit themselves better.
I agree, but could this be a result of relying on the internal warning system as apposed to the external warning system? When man decides what is right and wrong, he places himself in God’s place.

[goodburbon]

We can continue at a later date, I'm being forced out of the door now. hence the incomplete arguements.

[8Mud]

That was sarcasm.


as for this.
Quote:
Goodburbon wrote: If that is truly what you believe, you're also saying that protestant religions are bad because they changed the way things were originally intended to be?
Not sure I understand where you are coming from here my friend. Before I attempt to answer this question, please elaborate on what you mean by “things were originally intended to be.” Specifically; what things, and who?

1. You believe that Christ was the messiah and is the figurehead of your religion. From the manner in which you type I have done something dumb, I have made an assumption. That assumption is that you are protestant. Protestant religion itself is an example of what you warn against: suddenly "God's Absolute laws" were not being adhered to correctly according to Martin Luthers internal voice, so he started a religious revolution. Somehow the "word of God" lost a book or 2 when it made the jump from the Catholic church to the Protestant faiths.



Quote:
Goodburbon wrote:The simple fact is that people changed god to suit themselves better.
I agree, but could this be a result of relying on the internal warning system as apposed to the external warning system? When man decides what is right and wrong, he places himself in God’s place.


There was a conference right around 380 BC, which decided how much of the Christian religion was to be *organized*.

http://i12.tinypic.com/6oybers.png

Gods absolute laws, paraphrasing, God trying to explain the process to man is like trying to teach a Dog calculus. There have been a series of intermediaries often called *Profits* or those few that just seem to *get it* some better than the average Joe.

Whether Jesus was the Messiah, is irrelevant IMO and personally I feel totally*****
under qualified too make a judgment one way or the other. At the very least there was/is something profound going on, that is/has been hard to ignore for a couple of thousand years. Even far longer than that, when you figure the old testament in also.

The split from traditional Catholicism and the reform church was more a question of authority. Protestants believed the answer is in the Bible more so than the leadership of the established Church. Two parallel paths towards the same goal.

IMO the main flaw in many religions, is the "my way is the only true way" philosophy. It is doubtful *man* has ever managed to get it exactly right, again doubtful the Profits were fully understood and baring a return of the/a Messiah unlikely we will ever get it just right.

My biggest questions lately are what happened to the missing books of the Bible, what do they have to say? And the translations in the Old Testament that seem to be flawed. And how other great books/works of theology (the Koran among others) figure into the whole picture.

The investigation continues and will likely be a lifetime project. Sometimes the answers are in the process and not in absolute solutions or profound revelations. Wouldn't it be a hoot if they were all right and the problem was in our ability to comprehend.

[jeeperjohn]

I agree with a streamlined law system, but not based on the 10 commandments. Based on The Constitution, yes. Separation of Church and State still doesn't seem to have happened in a lot of places and, IMO, freedom of religion means that the government of an entire country shouldn't be based on any single religion.
I see what you mean, I was just using the ten commandments as an example of something to base things on.

[jeeperjohn]

There are a few people I can not and will not vote for.

Obama
Edwards
Clinton
Guilliani

I'd vote for Ron Paul in a heartbeat if he made the ballot, if not I just have to vote against those other humps.
So far I think Thompson has the most attractive campaigning points.

[Trail-Axe]

1. You believe that Christ was the messiah and is the figurehead of your religion. From the manner in which you type I have done something dumb, I have made an assumption. That assumption is that you are protestant. Protestant religion itself is an example of what you warn against: suddenly "God's Absolute laws" were not being adhered to correctly according to Martin Luther’s internal voice, so he started a religious revolution. Somehow the "word of God" lost a book or 2 when it made the jump from the Catholic church to the Protestant faiths.

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ sent from God. I was raised Roman Catholic. In 1999 I came to know Jesus personally. After, I started to read the Bible. I found many things written in the Bible that directly conflicted with Roman Catholic traditions. I made a choice to believe what was written in the Bible.

Martin Luther was not just following some inner voice, and he did not desire to start a revolution. He was a sixteenth century Roman Catholic German monk, and scholar. During his own personal Bible study, Luther came across the passage that says, "the just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11) From his study of this verse, he came to the realization that the teachings of the Roman Catholic church went against this teaching. Luther did not wish to leave the Roman Catholic church, but rather reform it. Luther apposed all teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that contradicted Scriptural teachings. However, he readily embraced teachings and traditions that were not against the Scripture's teachings. At the time, the Roman Catholic Church was rife with corruption and the sale of indulgences. Indulgences, was the payment of money to the Roman Catholic Church for forgiveness of sin. In 1515 Martin Luther began teaching at Wittenburg. He continuously pondered the teachings of the Apostle Paul. He spoke out against corruption and the selling of indulgences. He nailed his 95-point thesis to the door of the church in Wittenburg. In 1520, he was condemned by the Pope, excommunicated from the Church and his writings banned.


I do not claim any one Bible believing church as "my church." But I do attend a place of worship, and I still read the Bible. Before I knew Christ personally, my life had no real meaning, and I had no real hope. Now my life has meaning, and I have hope. I have faith that Christ is the one sent from God to deliver His people from a life of sin and death. It is my desire that all men could know Christ personally, but that will be a choice they will have to make after they have heard the truth about Him. The truth is this; Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)

I know that not everyone believes this, and I am ok with that. Those who chose not to believe will have to give an account to God personally for rejecting His only way to salvation. Since it is Jesus the Christ who made this statement, He is the one you must recon with about it. Remember the old saying, don't shoot the messenger? This also rules out the argument that all religions of the world are right. Jesus makes it very clear that there is only one name by which men can be saved. And Peter, one who was with Jesus, an eye witness of His resurrection said this:

Acts 4:8-12:
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved ." NKJV

[jeeperjohn]

Interesting view point. Are you sure that your good conscience is not from an external supernatural influence? And if you are sure, how do you know this?


Unacceptable to who? And what happens when we ignore this internal warning system? Should we be punished? And who should punish us? And whose standard do we judge by; your internal warning system, or mine? And what is to say your internal warning system should be a moral absolute for my internal warning system that differs from yours?

And if today 95% of the people do what they feel is right, what happens tomorrow when they no longer feel it is right?

My point is this: If we ignore an absolute authority for what is good, and what is bad, we then become that authority. We have seen what man is very capable of if left to his own internal warning system for what is good, and what is bad. He will justify murder when it suits him, and condemn it when it does not. He will steel to keep himself satisfied, and condemn the same when it is taken from himself. So maybe it is an external supernatural warning system that should receive the credit for what is good, and what is bad, and not an internal system.

The word of God does speak on the subject of conscience, and to whom the conscience comes from:
Rom 2:12-16:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. NKJV
The fact that our system is designed to give everyone their input is what makes it so workable. Majority rule generally has the best outcome in the long run. In theory our system is not necessarily based on christianity because anyone from any or even no religion could, in theory, get elected. It's when the elected leaders start to decide that they are smarter than the will of the people, that things start to go wrong.

[Trail-Axe]

The fact that our system is designed to give everyone their input is what makes it so workable. Majority rule generally has the best outcome in the long run. In theory our system is not necessarily based on christianity because anyone from any or even no religion could, in theory, get elected. It's when the elected leaders start to decide that they are smarter than the will of the people, that things start to go wrong.

True, it is a good system that allows everyone a chance to vote for the leader that best represents them. I'm not against that at all. But we as the people should not think that we are smarter then the will of God, that is when things will go wrong. :)

[sjd78]

That was sarcasm.

Sarcasm??? It didnt even make any sense?

[Starscream]

Sarcasm??? It didnt even make any sense?
Yes it did?

I do not claim any one Bible believing church as "my church." But I do attend a place of worship, and I still read the Bible.
I like that. Kudos. I, personally, am against organized religion as a whole. Sure it's done some good, but getting that many people together who are so willing to follow an unseen force and be easily influenced by one person worries me. I don't have a problem with faith, just religious push whether it be on an individual or a nation.

[sjd78]

Yes it did?
Nope, sure didnt! And I thought this was a pole on what political party you chose to vote for and why, not a religion bashing party??? "Hey guys I got an idea lets tell everyone over and over how I hate religion" (That was sarcasm, take notes) You havent done much but share your disbelief about religion, we get it already! What are you the Anti Christ or something?

[sjd78]

So far I think Thompson has the most attractive campaigning points.

I agree!

[Starscream]

Nope, sure didnt! And I thought this was a pole on what political party you chose to vote for and why, not a religion bashing party??? "Hey guys I got an idea lets tell everyone over and over how I hate religion" (That was sarcasm, take notes) You havent done much but share your disbelief about religion, we get it already! What are you the Anti Christ or something?
As it so happens, I am the Anti-christ! Good lawd look at the observation skills on this one. Psh. Oh, and I hope I lived up to your sarcasm standards on that one. And point out where I bashed religion. Point out where I said I hate God. Please, please, pretty please point out where I rubbed it in YOUR face. OH! I didn't. Ha. My bad. This is a political debate (again, good eye) which just happened to touch on the topic of religion in politics. See that? In POLITICS.

Gah.

AkhfkasbhfahbsfjkNJKNsfkjbansgf! That's aboot as belligerent as I can get here. I wish this was in the den.

[G.Q. Jeeper]

As a Canadian and Liberal my political views and opinions far differ from the Republicans of the USA.

I respectfully disagree with the Bush Administration and its policies. I was happy to see our Government not sending our troops into the "war on terror" as it was labeled by some.

I fully support our Socialized National Health Care (100% Gov't Control) I was happy to see our definition of marriage changed to include same sex couples, while respecting the religious rights of the Church. I am also happy to see that our hate crime laws are up to today's standards. Rev. Phelps sp? Would be in jail in our country if he pulled any of his stunts here in Canada.

Canada is small 32 million people, however we are the world's second largest Country, our budget is 1 Trillion Dollars, and our economy is doing outstandingly well. Our Largest Trading Partner is you guys (USA) at over a Billion Dollars in Trade going over the boarders between us two.

Is our Country perfect - hell no. The best part of being Canadian is that we embrace change, not get thrusted by it (A statement by the Late Roger B. Smith) but it accurately describes us to a tee!

Jeff

[jeeperjohn]

I was happy to see our Government not sending our troops into the "war on terror" as it was labeled by some.

The lamb who does not acknowledge the wolf for what he is and take precautions will find himself on his dinnertable!

[Russ Pottenger]

G.Q. Jeeper,

Good to get some input from our friends up north.
Maybe you can clear up a few questions I have.

The one thing we in the states hear about regarding your Socialized National Health Care System, is long waiting periods, and the lower quality of health care in comparison to our system.

The other question that I have is what percent do most Canadians pay in income taxes?

[Trail-Axe]

The lamb who does not acknowledge the wolf for what he is and take precautions will find himself on his dinnertable!

Good thing that little lamb lives next door to a very formidable Sheep Dog. :patriot:

[XJSpencer]

Good thing that little lamb lives next door to a very formidable Sheep Dog. :patriot:

We're still talking about our neighbors to the north, right?:thumbup:

[G.Q. Jeeper]

G.Q. Jeeper,

Good to get some input from our friends up north.
Maybe you can clear up a few questions I have.

The one thing we in the states hear about regarding your Socialized National Health Care System, is long waiting periods, and the lower quality of health care in comparison to our system.

The other question that I have is what percent do most Canadians pay in income taxes?

Okay fair questions:

If you see a doctor for non emergency situations it could take anywhere between same day to 7 days for an appointment, all you need is to show your heath card (mine is the NWT Health Care Plan) and thats it.

For Hospital Emergencies you are assesd by a Triage Nurse and your placed based on your emergency (ie: a cop that has a black eye will wait before a elderly man with a heart condition) None with a Emergency is put on hold, they will fly or transport to the nearest Hospital as the emergency esclates. You are placed in line in order regardless of your stature in society or the amount of money in your bank. The Doctor determins whats needed and thats the only word that counts in our system, no insurance companies to call and get approval for services needed. All services are prepaid and there are no limits placed on individuals seeking any treatment.

This goes for other non emergency proceedures as well, some may wait more in different provinces, however the quality of care is basically the same. Our Government is working on legislation to make wait times for non emergencies quicker and more efficient.

Price? Well I will share you my pay and take home and see how it stacks up to yours:

Basic Pay $ 18.00/hr.

I had worked 97 hours in the past 2 weeks with 10 of that being Overtime ( 10 hours now at $27.00/hr)

Total Pay (Gross) $1,848.60

Deductions:

Federal Tax = -$307.12
Territory Tax (its like your state Gov't) = -$36.97
CPP (Our Fed Pension Plan ) = -$84.29
UIC (employment insurance) = -$33.27

Total Pay = $1,386.95

Hope this helps you out when comparing a publicly funded system Vs a Private one. I am very happy with my gov't run health care and would not have it any other way to be honest.

Jeff

[jeeperjohn]

Okay fair questions:

If you see a doctor for non emergency situations it could take anywhere between same day to 7 days for an appointment, all you need is to show your heath card (mine is the NWT Health Care Plan) and thats it.

For Hospital Emergencies you are assesd by a Triage Nurse and your placed based on your emergency (ie: a cop that has a black eye will wait before a elderly man with a heart condition) None with a Emergency is put on hold, they will fly or transport to the nearest Hospital as the emergency esclates. You are placed in line in order regardless of your stature in society or the amount of money in your bank. The Doctor determins whats needed and thats the only word that counts in our system, no insurance companies to call and get approval for services needed. All services are prepaid and there are no limits placed on individuals seeking any treatment.

This goes for other non emergency proceedures as well, some may wait more in different provinces, however the quality of care is basically the same. Our Government is working on legislation to make wait times for non emergencies quicker and more efficient.

Price? Well I will share you my pay and take home and see how it stacks up to yours:

Basic Pay $ 18.00/hr.

I had worked 97 hours in the past 2 weeks with 10 of that being Overtime ( 10 hours now at $27.00/hr)

Total Pay (Gross) $1,848.60

Deductions:

Federal Tax = -$307.12
Territory Tax (its like your state Gov't) = -$36.97
CPP (Our Fed Pension Plan ) = -$84.29
UIC (employment insurance) = -$33.27

Total Pay = $1,386.95

Hope this helps you out when comparing a publicly funded system Vs a Private one. I am very happy with my gov't run health care and would not have it any other way to be honest.

Jeff
I'm glad you are happy with your system. I would be open to the idea if the quality of care were comparable to what I have now. I would like to see our government do away with all income taxes and use a tax system based on consumption. You use more resources IE: gasoline, you pay more tax. Our system has taxed us to greater than
50% of our pay. We are like frogs in a cookpot here, as long as the temperature doesn't shoot up too quickly here, people are content to let the government just have their way with us. Prior to WWI there was no income tax in the US. The tax during WWI was 1%. Now our taxes are as high as 37%. I wouldn't have such a problem with paying taxes if I didn't see our government throwing our tax money away by giving to other countries and paying for research that does not significantly benefit the majority of our society. If we were to start some kind of national health plan here the gawdamn bastard politicians would use that as a reason to jack our taxes up even more.:soapbox:

[Trail-Axe]

I'm glad you are happy with your system. I would be open to the idea if the quality of care were comparable to what I have now. I would like to see our government do away with all income taxes and use a tax system based on consumption. You use more resources IE: gasoline, you pay more tax. Our system has taxed us to greater than 50% of our pay. We are like frogs in a cookpot here, as long as the temperature doesn't shoot up too quickly here, people are content to let the government just have their way with us. Prior to WWI there was no income tax in the US. The tax during WWI was 1%. Now our taxes are as high as 37%. I wouldn't have such a problem with paying taxes if I didn't see our government throwing our tax money away by giving to other countries and paying for research that does not significantly benefit the majority of our society. If we were to start some kind of national health plan here the politicians would use that as a reason to jack our taxes up even more.
:soapbox:

Well said!

[MudDawg]

I just ran across this recently revived old thread, and read it all. As for my political position, I must go with the "Southern Republican" thing....which by the way, I thouroughly enjoyed 8MUD's question test.

I definately am taken by 5-90ism...I have come to realize that Jon and I not only share a a great deal of similar opinions and at times share the tendency for excessive verbocity, but like he says it takes the guesswork out of understanding what we are trying to say.

The other thing is earlier in this thread on page three, TRNDVR stated that he was glad he didn't pay social security. Jon (5-90) asked how, and got no answer. My guess is unless TRNDVR (a wild ass guess is his nic means train driver) is living under the radar, or railroad employees are in some way exempt....the only other answer that I know of (and I certainly don't know everything) is that he may be a "sovereign citizen".

[sjd78]

As it so happens, I am the Anti-christ! Good lawd look at the observation skills on this one. Psh. Oh, and I hope I lived up to your sarcasm standards on that one. And point out where I bashed religion. Point out where I said I hate God. Please, please, pretty please point out where I rubbed it in YOUR face. OH! I didn't. Ha. My bad. This is a political debate (again, good eye) which just happened to touch on the topic of religion in politics. See that? In POLITICS.

Gah.

AkhfkasbhfahbsfjkNJKNsfkjbansgf! That's aboot as belligerent as I can get here. I wish this was in the den.

I dont need to point out where you have bashed religion because that is about all you have done. I never said you "hated God" I said you have made your point that you "hate religion" And l NEVER said you rubbed it in my face. Can you not read at all? Your post was just below mine and yet you cant even seem to comprehend what you read. Yes this is a political debate on "Which political party are you" I guess that must put you in the " I dont like religion" or maybe " Religion Bashing" party huh??? And yes it did "TOUCH" on religion in politics and you made your point over and over how you felt. Move on!

[Trail-Axe]

The other thing is earlier in this thread on page three, TRNDVR stated that he was glad he didn't pay social security. Jon (5-90) asked how, and got no answer. My guess is unless TRNDVR (a wild ass guess is his nic means train driver) is living under the radar, or railroad employees are in some way exempt....the only other answer that I know of (and I certainly don't know everything) is that he may be a "sovereign citizen".

If he works for the railroad, the Railroad Retirement Board (RRB) would be the ones that will be paying his retirement benefits, and not the SSA. RRB was established around the same time as the SSA, and serves a similar function, but only to railroad workers. http://www.rrb.gov/opa/agency_overview.asp (http://www.rrb.gov/opa/agency_overview.asp)

There are many other groups of people that do not pay social security tax because they are covered by a Public Employee Retirement System (PERS). IE: Firemen, Policemen, DMV, ETC… http://www.calpers.ca.gov/index.jsp?bc=/about/home.xml (http://www.calpers.ca.gov/index.jsp?bc=/about/home.xml)

[jeeperjohn]

If he works for the railroad, the Railroad Retirement Board (RRB) would be the ones that will be paying his retirement benefits, and not the SSA. RRB was established around the same time as the SSA, and serves a similar function, but only to railroad workers. http://www.rrb.gov/opa/agency_overview.asp (http://www.rrb.gov/opa/agency_overview.asp)

There are many other groups of people that do not pay social security tax because they are covered by a Public Employee Retirement System (PERS). IE: Firemen, Policemen, DMV, ETC… http://www.calpers.ca.gov/index.jsp?bc=/about/home.xml (http://www.calpers.ca.gov/index.jsp?bc=/about/home.xml)

I am under PERS but I pay social security taxes because I am not a peace officer. It's almost too bad because all that money I payed in will have long since been payed to some illegal alien and the gubment will have no more money for me by the time I retire.:smsoap:

[IndyXJ]

G.Q.-
Good post, I'm not a liberal per se, but I definitely agree with you on the "war on terror".


I abhor Bush after supporting him in the beginning and opening my eyes. The war on terror is an overblown operation. There will always be terrorists, there is no "winning" as in a war against a country. All it's done is curtail the Constitution and put the citizenry in a constant state of fear. Real ID, North American Union, police state surveillance using the NSA on down...what happened to our country?

How many of you will be in line to be "chipped" with a Verichip for the greater good and "security"?


P.S.-- TIM HORTON's RULES!!!




As a Canadian and Liberal my political views and opinions far differ from the Republicans of the USA.

I respectfully disagree with the Bush Administration and its policies. I was happy to see our Government not sending our troops into the "war on terror" as it was labeled by some.

I fully support our Socialized National Health Care (100% Gov't Control) I was happy to see our definition of marriage changed to include same sex couples, while respecting the religious rights of the Church. I am also happy to see that our hate crime laws are up to today's standards. Rev. Phelps sp? Would be in jail in our country if he pulled any of his stunts here in Canada.

Canada is small 32 million people, however we are the world's second largest Country, our budget is 1 Trillion Dollars, and our economy is doing outstandingly well. Our Largest Trading Partner is you guys (USA) at over a Billion Dollars in Trade going over the boarders between us two.

Is our Country perfect - hell no. The best part of being Canadian is that we embrace change, not get thrusted by it (A statement by the Late Roger B. Smith) but it accurately describes us to a tee!

Jeff

[jeeperjohn]

G.Q.-
Good post, I'm not a liberal per se, but I definitely agree with you on the "war on terror".


I abhor Bush after supporting him in the beginning and opening my eyes. The war on terror is an overblown operation. There will always be terrorists, there is no "winning" as in a war against a country. All it's done is curtail the Constitution and put the citizenry in a constant state of fear. Real ID, North American Union, police state surveillance using the NSA on down...what happened to our country?

How many of you will be in line to be "chipped" with a Verichip for the greater good and "security"?


P.S.-- TIM HORTON's RULES!!!
Your concerns are certainly valid but think about this:
The Islamic terrorists cannot be reasoned with, the only way to stay ahead of them is to fight them. We must use any means necessary to find out about their plots and interrupt them before they can pull them off. Hundreds of attacks have been prevented this way. Why haven't you heard about them? Because you don't have "a need to know" as it is put in the intel community. You have no idea how many attacks were stopped because of listening to phone conversations etc.

The war on terror is the single biggest national defense effort ever, it's just kept under wraps for the most part because in the information age it is too easy for the terrorists to get info about us and our defenses. The press should be suppressed when they start knowingly printing information the terrorists can use against us. The press people who identified Valery Plame should be brought up on charges of treason!

As Bush (I am not happy with him either) said, we must take the war to the enemy to keep it off American soil. The decision to attack Iraq was at best piss poorly timed, we should have put all our efforts into Afghanistan and Pakistan first. We had every right to attack Iraq but we should have waited until we dismantled Al Qaeda first. The Iraqis were training terrorists who aimed to attack the US but not even close to as many as those in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria etc. etc. etc.
It sounds really heart warming to say we shouldn't kill the radical islamists but the fact is that if we don't kill them first, they will kill innocent Americans and other westerners in the greatest numbers they can.
Either we stop this shit now, while they are not well organized, at a big cost in dollars and at a comparably small cost in lives, or we do it in the future at a astronomical cost in dollars and lives.

[Trail-Axe]

Your concerns are certainly valid but think about this:
The Islamic terrorists cannot be reasoned with, the only way to stay ahead of them is to fight them. We must use any means necessary to find out about their plots and interrupt them before they can pull them off. Hundreds of attacks have been prevented this way. Why haven't you heard about them? Because you don't have "a need to know" as it is put in the intel community. You have no idea how many attacks were stopped because of listening to phone conversations etc.

The war on terror is the single biggest national defense effort ever, it's just kept under wraps for the most part because in the information age it is too easy for the terrorists to get info about us and our defenses. The press should be suppressed when they start knowingly printing information the terrorists can use against us. The press people who identified Valery Plame should be brought up on charges of treason!

As Bush (I am not happy with him either) said, we must take the war to the enemy to keep it off American soil. The decision to attack Iraq was at best piss poorly timed, we should have put all our efforts into Afghanistan and Pakistan first. We had every right to attack Iraq but we should have waited until we dismantled Al Qaeda first. The Iraqis were training terrorists who aimed to attack the US but not even close to as many as those in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria etc. etc. etc.
It sounds really heart warming to say we shouldn't kill the radical islamists but the fact is that if we don't kill them first, they will kill innocent Americans and other westerners in the greatest numbers they can.
Either we stop this shit now, while they are not well organized, at a big cost in dollars and at a comparably small cost in lives, or we do it in the future at a astronomical cost in dollars and lives.

:cheers:

[Russ Pottenger]

X-3 John

While our country has made many mistakes, and is far from perfect.
There is, and never has been a country on this planet that has given more charity to other people, and nations. To use it's Military power to keep its citizens free and safe, and allowing others throughout the world to have the same opportunities.