I know what you did last winter, spring, summer and early fall.

[CRASH]

Well, thanks to Jes, I had to tear apart the best suspension I have ever built, in order to fit his old Atlas 4.3. The Atlas is bigger in almost every dimension, except for one. Because my old three link was built around an NV4500/NP231 combo, and all clearances were withing 1/4", I knew I was diving into a major reconstruct when I installed the Atlas. Knowing that, I figured I could also add a foundation for a future rear link suspension while I had everything out.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00218.jpg

These are the two new crossmembers, the drivetrain mount, and the T-case skid. The front crossmember is 2x4x.25", the rear is 2x4x.188.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00219.jpg

Here are the 4 components all assembled. The front crossmember attaches through frame sleeves with one 5/8" bolt, and two 9/16" bolt. The rear is two 9/16" bolts. The longitudinal drivetrain crossmember that goes betweeen the two suspension crossmembers mounts with 8 3/8" bolts. It is made from .188 plate cut and welded into a custom shape with a bit of drop to accomadate the skidplate which is formed around the bottom of the Atlas.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00206.jpg

Another view. The upper control arm mount is 2x2x.188", the LCA mounts are 3x3x.188.:

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00207.jpg

Here are the members installed:

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00221.jpg

And a closer view of the drivetrain mount. I'm especially proud of this piece, 8 pieces of steel in there, and a Wrangler spring bushing. Bolts in with 8 5/16" bolts through the Atlas cover. The "V" notch relief on the driver's side allows you to push the bushing out for service.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00215.jpg

Here's how the longitudinal drivetrain crossmember and the mount interface. 9/16" bolt holding it in place.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00228.jpg

Here is everything installed. LCA arms are my old 2"x.25" chromoly units cut down 4" to 35.5". Upper arm is 1.75" x .120". Heim at the frame side is a 1" bore, 1.25" thread. All other joints are RE's.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00227.jpg

Another shot:

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00224.jpg

Things get kind of tight on the driver's side. The red tube above/next to the UCA is grafted into the floor, and catches a perpendicular 1.5" tube that has a washer welded in, and through bolts into the UCA mount. This reduces any potential movement of the UCA mount under braking, or landing.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00225.jpg

Another view. Thanks again to Billy for hosting. XJDB is the shiznit.

Here you can see the vertical separation at the frame. On the old suspension, I had three holes: One that nearly equaled the vertical separation at the axle (one inch less), one that was an inch lower, and one two inches lower. I settled on the middle position, as nearly parralel had very little anti-dive which made the rear of the Jeep very light under hard braking in the dez or on fast fire roads. Knowing this, I just drilled one hole in the new mount to duplicate the geometry of the old junk.

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00208.jpg


All in all, I'm very happy with the way it all went together, and it's nice to know that I can add a rear triangulated 4 link without too much trouble in the future.

[Lawn Cher']

How much shipped to 63385?

[87manche]

x2, and it will have to be made for a LWB MJ, I assume you've got the measurements already.

[Captain Ron]

Nice work.

Would it be too much to ask you to really use the flat head c sunk allens under the cross members?

It would be worth the entertainment value on the trail to hear what Richard would have to say, trust me. :D

--ron

[BrettM]

now hurry up with the cage work, dash and wiring! :D

[CRASH]

now hurry up with the cage work, dash and wiring! :D


Pics in two weeks, very busy with my roof. I'm not embarrased to say that I didn't like the cage color and have to repaint before posting pics. Oh, and I had to grind and Bondo the welds inside so I didn't catch my skirt getting in and out. :D

And Ron, I have to use the stainless pan head allens, anything less is not bling enough. Even if it means drilling them out for trail repairs. :D :D

[Porch Puppy]

Nice work.

Would it be too much to ask you to really use the flat head c sunk allens under the cross members?

It would be worth the entertainment value on the trail to hear what Richard would have to say, trust me. :D

--ron

:confused1 Allens are the best.:)

[basalt51]

Pics in two weeks, very busy with my roof. I'm not embarrased to say that I didn't like the cage color and have to repaint before posting pics. Oh, and I had to grind and Bondo the welds inside so I didn't catch my skirt getting in and out. :D

And Ron, I have to use the stainless pan head allens, anything less is not bling enough. Even if it means drilling them out for trail repairs. :D :D

Let me know when the mail order plans for the custom child seat frame and mounts are available! :D Its bolt in right?

[AzRick]

:confused1 Allens are the best.:)

I guess they are the best.................................if you're trying permanently attach the skid to the jeep :rolleyes:

Rick

BTW.....Nice work Crash. Will it ever see the dirt?

[Goatman]

Nice work.

Would it be too much to ask you to really use the flat head c sunk allens under the cross members?

It would be worth the entertainment value on the trail to hear what Richard would have to say, trust me. :D

--ron

Awh, just cut 'em off. Oh wait, they're counter sunk so you can't, so yeah, drill them out. Oh, you don't have a drill on the trail, wait....someone has a cordless they can go get. Ah oh, they're stainless, the corless doesn't have enough poop. Oh well, just tack weld something to the head so you can beat them out, that'll work. So, what's wrong with hex head, did ya think you'd have trouble getting them out? BTW, anyone have dinner?

Now just repeat over and over.........








:D

How's that, Ron?

[Goatman]

Looks really good, Andy. I still need to figure out my crossmember and skid plate, and where to mount the rear suspension. I like the extra mount on the Atlas, what was the thinking behind that? Hmmmm...........

What size rod ends did you guys use on the upper arm?

[Goatman]

Oh, I see, that is the only trans mount. Nice way of doing it.

[OT]

Looks really nice, Andy.
I love that design.

[Lincoln]

There are so many things wrong with this thread I'm not sure where to start.

1. Winter? Sure feels like July to me.

2. Allens? I didn't seem to have a problem with them at all. I thought it was a beer break.

3. Richard, just search you forgetfull old fart. http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=223594&postcount=34 (at the bottom)

4. OT? The dope make you forget how to spell Okie?

5. Please clean and wax all parts before posting pics.

[BrettM]

Looks really good, Andy. I still need to figure out my crossmember and skid plate, and where to mount the rear suspension. I like the extra mount on the Atlas, what was the thinking behind that? Hmmmm...........

What size rod ends did you guys use on the upper arm?
LCA arms are my old 2"x.25" chromoly units cut down 4" to 35.5". Upper arm is 1.75" x .120". Heim at the frame side is a 1" bore, 1.25" thread. All other joints are RE's.

[Captain Ron]

Awh, just cut 'em off.

...

Now just repeat over and over.........








:D

How's that, Ron?

:confused1 Allens are the best.:)

I guess they are the best...

...

...

2. Allens? I didn't seem to have a problem with them at all. I thought it was a beer break.

...

I swear to God I'm gonna start bringing popcorn for everyone on trail runs. :D

--ron

[Lincoln]

I swear to God I'm gonna start bringing popcorn for everyone on trail runs. :D

--ron

I think some of that crap in the aluminum pan would fit nicely between the header and the motor.

[CRASH]

There are so many things wrong with this thread I'm not sure where to start.

1. Winter? Sure feels like July to me.



Fixed it the title for you.

I don't see the problem with Allen heads, they seem plenty stout for sitting in the garage, and I haven't had trouble removing them yet!

Maybe I should have gone tamper-proof Torx?

[CRASH]

I like the extra mount on the Atlas, what was the thinking behind that? Hmmmm...........




Yeah, it's the only mount. The trouble was, there was no way to get a trans mount under the 4500 without compromising some strength or ground clearance. With the 231's planetary housing, there was an extrs 3.5" between the NV and 231, allowing room for a similar setup to what we did for Jes. Now, everythings sqeezed together, and there is NO ROOM in front or behind the crossmember.

Mounting to the Atlas seemed like the best solution, as the case is very thick all the way around, but particularly in the cover mount area. I believe it's going to be fine, but I'll be keeping an eye on the t-case to trans studs and the cover bolts. Don't want to end up like Phil!

[Brian Carpenter]

I wonder about the upper link.
What is the attatchment point to the axle? Did you weld-in or bolt to the cover attatchment points? Have you ever worried about twisting the passenger side axle tube? It seems like with Hydraulic steering you could over torque the passenger side tire and cause some serious damage.
Any problems in the past? What type of wheeling do you do?
please answer in any order.

[Lincoln]

Fixed it the title for you.

I don't see the problem with Allen heads, they seem plenty stout for sitting in the garage, and I haven't had trouble removing them yet!

Maybe I should have gone tamper-proof Torx?

Much better tittle.

The tamper-proof Torx work ok but I prefer these. No hex head, allen, or torx to mess up.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-28505188400710_1905_27720704

If you are going to have to use vise grips, weld, grind, curse, or any cobination of the above to get them out you might as well start that way. :D

[5-90]

Lincoln - those aren't plow bolts, are they?

5-90

[Lincoln]

Lincoln - those aren't plow bolts, are they?

5-90

:D

[5-90]

:D

Thought so. I bet you're wondering how I knew that...

5-90

[Lincoln]

Thought so. I bet you're wondering how I knew that...

5-90

I thought everyone knows about plow bolts. I'm guessing you weren't always a Socal numbnuts. :D

[5-90]

I've never been a SoCal "numbnuts," and the fact of being Sierra Chapter (NorCal) is a "temporary inconvenience." I'm just displaced.

I don't think anyone out here knows about plow bolts - unless they're also "displaced," or have occasion to use and repair plows fairly regularly...

5-90

[LBEXJ]

... I don't think anyone out here knows about plow bolts - unless they're also "displaced," or have occasion to use and repair plows fairly regularly...

5-90
Shoot ... I install new cutters every year to my front bumper using them.

Doesn't everybody?

Les

[Lincoln]

I've never been a SoCal "numbnuts," and the fact of being Sierra Chapter (NorCal) is a "temporary inconvenience." I'm just displaced.

I don't think anyone out here knows about plow bolts - unless they're also "displaced," or have occasion to use and repair plows fairly regularly...

5-90

I need to start looking at peoples locations. :D

Farmerboy better know about plow bolts or I've lost all faith in him.

Les even knows what they are.

[Mike L]

I need to start looking at peoples locations. :D

Farmerboy better know about plow bolts or I've lost all faith in him.

Les even knows what they are.

Only 10 more posts to go....................... :shocked:

-Mike

[CRASH]

I wonder about the upper link.
What is the attatchment point to the axle?

Here is a front shot of the set-up.

http://www.fototime.com/%7B3DD2F76C-A200-4926-AF9F-F604F88EBA6D%7D/picture.JPG

Here is the axle mount (this is Jes's, mine is nearly identical.)

http://www.fototime.com/%7B44AB4F9B-28CC-4D76-AB8F-49EF94DF6B16%7D/picture.JPG

Did you weld-in or bolt to the cover attatchment points?

No, never broken what I run.

Have you ever worried about twisting the passenger side axle tube?

How would that happen? There is no twisting force what-so-ever on the passenger side axle tube. That's the beauty of a 3 link.

It seems like with Hydraulic steering you could over torque the passenger side tire and cause some serious damage.

I don't understand this at all.....what do you mean by "over torque"?

Any problems in the past?

None at all, it is the best handling, most predictable suspension I've ever built, and this is my 5th one.

What type of wheeling do you do?

The hardest of the hard rock trails, fast desert runs, and then a lot of the milder type of trails like the Rubicon, etc.

CRASH

[Brian Carpenter]

Here is a front shot of the set-up.

http://www.fototime.com/%7B3DD2F76C-A200-4926-AF9F-F604F88EBA6D%7D/picture.JPG

Here is the axle mount (this is Jes's, mine is nearly identical.)

http://www.fototime.com/%7B44AB4F9B-28CC-4D76-AB8F-49EF94DF6B16%7D/picture.JPG


How would that happen? There is no twisting force what-so-ever on the passenger side axle tube. That's the beauty of a 3 link.


I don't understand this at all.....what do you mean by "over torque"?

CRASH

:anon: In my own defense.. I would worry about brakeing hard from speed and the passenger side wanting to twist forward with the wheel. Without the upper on that side there is little except the torsional resistance of the axle tube itself to stop it.. right? Until these pics, it wasn't clear that you were not using a D-30.

[CRASH]

would worry about brakeing hard from speed and the passenger side wanting to twist forward with the wheel. Without the upper on that side there is little except the torsional resistance of the axle tube itself to stop it.. right?


No, incorrect. Picture this scenario:

You hit a rock, at speed, on your passenger side. The load attempts to compress the member on the pass. side, but it tries to extend the UCA on the driver's side. In other words, you don't need two UCA's, all they do is control torque, while the LCA's control fore and aft axle movement.

Does this make sense? I want to try and explain this as best I can, since this question is fairly common.

[SeanP]

:anon: In my own defense.. I would worry about brakeing hard from speed and the passenger side wanting to twist forward with the wheel. Without the upper on that side there is little except the torsional resistance of the axle tube itself to stop it.. right? Until these pics, it wasn't clear that you were not using a D-30.

Methinks Master Brian has never retubed a pumkin or rotated his knuckles. It takes a massive amount of force to remove a tube from the pumkin, even after drilling out the rosettes. Ask Billy how many swings of the 3 pound sledge it takes to rotate a knuckle 12* after you have the weld all the way off the inner C so you can see the thin hairline crack all around. Contrast this force to the contact patch of a tire on even the stickiest asphalt. You will always lose traction before you even get to 1-3% (my WAG) of the twisting force needed to spin an axle tube under hard braking.

Nice job andy. Where do you find the time?

SeanP

[hadfield4wd]

Crash,

Where did you get the bracket for the hydro assist on the tie rod?

Matt

[CRASH]

Crash,

Where did you get the bracket for the hydro assist on the tie rod?

Matt

A MIG, 1.5" tube, and some 3/4"x.375 strap. ;)

[Weasel]

I think he's worried that instead of two links take the rotational forces now there is one one. And with it being on one side, the force on the one link will be more since it has the extra length of the axle as well, etc. Doesn't seem to be a problem since Crash's links are holding up fine.

[cracker]

A MIG, 1.5" tube, and some 3/4"x.375 strap. ;)

Andy,

If one didn't have the fabrication skills, do you know where one may purchase something like this?

Thanks

Avery

[Weasel]

I seem to remeber seeing a similar clamp to that somewhere...can't remember where though.

[HillbillyXJ]

Crash, Jes, and others,
I know you'll flame me but, do you have any drawings or dimensions of the URF cross member and upper link bracket highths along with lca bracket dimensions and angles?
Could a newb use a TnT belly pan and fab my upper link bracket which would give me the clearence and protection? Looked at several pics and looks like a UCA bracket would fit right where it needs to be. I can burn rod, but not sure if my welding skills are what they should be (I've welded frames to support wall mounted transformers and such). Don't know if fab skills are at that level. Just a stupid Inside Wireman/Constrution worker.
How close to parallel do the upper and lower arms need to be? Within a 1/4" to 1/2" or what tolerance is allowable?
I'll stop with the questions... feel like a dumb cub that's really wantin' to learn! :roll:

[What Rd]

Hey CRASH -
Truly sweet. Forget the shipping, I'll deliver my rig to you! :)
What's the mount on the trailing edge of the rear crossmember for? A traction bar?
Have you had it out of the garage yet? I'm curious about what the reduction in length on your control arms did to the feel/handling of your setup.

[Ghost]

Methinks Master Brian has never retubed a pumkin or rotated his knuckles. It takes a massive amount of force to remove a tube from the pumkin, even after drilling out the rosettes. Ask Billy how many swings of the 3 pound sledge it takes to rotate a knuckle 12* after you have the weld all the way off the inner C so you can see the thin hairline crack all around. Contrast this force to the contact patch of a tire on even the stickiest asphalt. You will always lose traction before you even get to 1-3% (my WAG) of the twisting force needed to spin an axle tube under hard braking.

Nice job andy. Where do you find the time?

SeanP
Unless of course you are dealing with a ford 8.8, then all above is false... lol! :flame: ME!

[Ghost]

Here is a front shot of the set-up.

http://www.fototime.com/%7B3DD2F76C-A200-4926-AF9F-F604F88EBA6D%7D/picture.JPG

Here is the axle mount (this is Jes's, mine is nearly identical.)

http://www.fototime.com/%7B44AB4F9B-28CC-4D76-AB8F-49EF94DF6B16%7D/picture.JPG

CRASH

Just courous why no gussets on the pumpkin bridge? Not worried about it calapsing or something at the bends?

[JeepFreak21]

Ask Billy how many swings of the 3 pound sledge it takes to rotate a knuckle 12* after you have the weld all the way off the inner C so you can see the thin hairline crack all around.

A LOT!
Billy

[Root Moose]

http://www.xjdb.com/albums/xjs/DSC00207.jpg

So how many inches are there in vertical separation? I'm guessing 6"-7"?

Did you do the maths on that value or just settle on the hole you liked best after trying them for road feel?

<wow - that almost sounds rude>

[Jes]

Just courous why no gussets on the pumpkin bridge? Not worried about it calapsing or something at the bends?

Actually, I do have gussets on the bridge over the pumpkin, you just can't see them in the pic.
As far as it "calapsing"(do you mean collapsing?) or "something", I have over 40,000 miles on it without an issue.
I only drive it to the mall so take that in to consideration.
I hope my web wheeling habits help you acheive a high standard in web wheeeling etiquitte'.

[Goatman]

Actually, I do have gussets on the bridge over the pumpkin, you just can't see them in the pic.
As far as it "calapsing"(do you mean collapsing?) or "something", I have over 40,000 miles on it without an issue.
I only drive it to the mall so take that in to consideration.
I hope my web wheeling habits help you acheive a high standard in web wheeeling etiquitte'.

Whoa! Settled into the new place and got Internet? :)

[Jes]

Whoa! Settled into the new place and got Internet? :)

Settled in?
Kinda, I think I'll still be living out of boxes for a while. :rof:

[OT]

Man, I could never mock everything up prior to installation, like that.
It seems that everything I do comes from the top of my head and just gets put on and adjusted until it fits.
You people and your freaking planning.

[GSequoia]

Settled in?
Kinda, I think I'll still be living out of boxes for a while. :rof:

Living out of a cardboard box sucks.

Not much wind protection and the cops come and harass you all the time.

[Jes]

Living out of a cardboard box sucks.

Not much wind protection and the cops come and harass you all the time.

The property taxes are much more acceptable though.

[GSequoia]

The property taxes are much more acceptable though.

But the garage sucks.