This is sick...

[RichP]

In my book this should remove all rules from our people over there....
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/20/iraq.main/index.html
I remember this shit from nam... these insurgents are scum of the earth.

[98XJSport]

Hard to win a war when we are more concerned with civilian casualties than they are...

[boise49ers]

Yes you are both right, but you also have to ask yourself if they would of did this if we weren't there. In my opinion we should of used Afghanistan as our front on terror. We were already there and that country would of been a lot easier to fight them in then the streets in Iraq. We can't police the entire world. Look at Africa. They have more Muslim terrorist then anywhere else in the world. No one seems to worry about them coming over here, just the ones in Iraq from what I hear.
It really is hard to watch the kids suffer. It makes you think what would we do if this was our home this was happening in. Which I believe is why we have the Homeland Sercurity Department so we don't have to worry about that. Just hope no one decides to invade us. Not sure we would have the resouces to defend every border. There is no easy answer that is for sure.
:peace:

[Ghost]

In my book this should remove all rules from our people over there....
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/20/iraq.main/index.html
I remember this shit from nam... these insurgents are scum of the earth.

Sad truely sad. I cannot understand how anyone could do that. I guess they dont care it's there agenda that is more important. :(

[XJ Dreamin']

you also have to ask yourself if they would of did this if we weren't there. :peace:

And you wouldn't have to worry about being hit by a drunk driver if you never left your house.

Not raggin' on you, but the thought that their actions are our responsibility doesn't make a lot of sense. There might have been reasons to not go into Iraq, and there might be reasons to leave - we might even be wrong (say it ain't so!) - but a$$holes using kids for cover is pure evil. They can't do something like that and then blame us for their own perversions.

Yes, we have killed civilians, including children. Civilians in a war zone always pay the highest price in any conflict. But, to pull children from your own population and use them as cover goes so far beyond any justification that it only reinforces the need to safeguard not only ourselves, but yes, the whole world if need be from these guys.

Which I believe is why we have the Homeland Sercurity Department so we don't have to worry about that.

Sorry. Just one more comment.

ha. I'm more worried about the HSD than I am about invasion.

[Powerman]

I don't believe it. It is from a news agency and we all know that all news is leftist/liberal propaganda.

[XJ Dreamin']

Sad truely sad. I cannot understand how anyone could do that. I guess they dont care it's there agenda that is more important. :(

Cosider two possible scenerios: A) The two adults who ran away were insurgents, foreign to Iraq who kidnapped two innocent children for cover through the checkpoint, or: B) The two adults who ran away were family members who sacrificed their own innocent children for cover through the checkpoint.


Actually, there's a third: C) The two adults who ran away were of one sect (I don't give a crap whether it's Sunni or Shiite) who kidnapped two innocent children of the other sect for cover through the checkpoint.

In screnerio 'A' I can almost see how they might not care about those children. If you can find those fawkers, just shoot 'em and let 'em lay. But, 'B' and 'C' - I can't even comprehend my own anger just thinking about that. How do you just grab two kids and do that to them? That's plenty of justification right there for a US-led world police force.

[XJ Dreamin']

I don't believe it. It is from a news agency and we all know that all news is leftist/liberal propaganda.

Trolling for conservative reactionaries
http://www.haverodwilltravel.com/images/Trolling%202.jpg

[98XJSport]

Yes you are both right, but you also have to ask yourself if they would of did this if we weren't there.

Maybe it wouldn't have happened if we were not there. But I guarantee it would not have happened if they wern't there. Pity someone hadn't turned on the child locks and kept the adults in the vehicle as well...

[Ghost]

No if we were not there Sadam would still be gassing his own people. Some of you may not rember his gas attacks but I do. He needed to be taken out, he had the third larget army when we went in and was a host country to terrorist. No more justification is needed in my mind. I'm truely saddened at how the world terrorist have flocked to that country to wreak havok on our troops and there people just to get at us. Isn't that what the majority of there attacks are about, to undermind our suport of there new government?

[Powerman]

Sad truely sad. I cannot understand how anyone could do that. I guess they dont care it's there agenda that is more important. :(

How many children do you think we nuked in Hiroshima? How many children are slaughtered in Darfur that we don't give a crap about? Hell, even God himself killed the first born son of the Egyptians to get his point across.

All men are capable of the same evil. It is enough for me to say I don't like the terrorists and they need to be exterminated. They kill innocents everyday to get what they want. 9/11? That's enough for me. As if what they have been doing is just wrong, but now because of the kids let's be outraged. When there is war, kids die. It's just a fact.

[Powerman]

Trolling for conservative reactionaries
http://www.haverodwilltravel.com/images/Trolling%202.jpg

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[XJ Dreamin']

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

No nibbles yet. I'm disapointed. I've got the popcorn bag in the microwave - just need to hit 'Start'. Out of beer, though. I'll check back later - see if anything developes.



Ahh, there goes the chopper, outbound to drop some ping-pong balls. No burning for me today, though. I've got to drive to Rice this afternoon.

[boise49ers]

I don't believe it. It is from a news agency and we all know that all news is leftist/liberal propaganda.
Hear yuh go Dreamin :)

Yeah owned by Corporate America. Kind of an Oxy Moron isn't it ?
That just cracks me up. It's a Conspiracy Man. Funny Stuff !
I read News from AP, Rutgers, Cnn, USA Today, NPR, and I'm supposed to believe Fox News has it all right and all those news agencies are all just out to get the Conservatives. Am I right in that assumption ? I don't watch TV news at all any more. Maybe Comedy Central once in awhile, that is funny stuff too.

[XJ Dreamin']

No if we were not there Sadam would still be gassing his own people. Some of you may not rember his gas attacks but I do. He needed to be taken out, he had the third larget army when we went in and was a host country to terrorist. No more justification is needed in my mind. I'm truely saddened at how the world terrorist have flocked to that country to wreak havok on our troops and there people just to get at us. Isn't that what the majority of there attacks are about, to undermind our suport of there new government?

No, I remember. I also remember that we put him there. We took over modern day Persia from Britian when they got tired of it, and we haven't done any better job of it than they had.

Here's my take on Iraq - not that it matters. If you have a dog that bites, it's your responsibility to deal with it. Sadam was our dog. When he turned on us and started biting the neighbors it was time to deal with him. We chose to go through the UN. That was fine - the UN can serve as a Grand Jury to issue warrants, internationally. The allied forces served warrants in the name of the UN in the form of Desert Storm. Now, if the police in your town go to serve a warrant on your neighbor down the street because he assulted his neighbor and was beating on his own family, how far can the police go if he resists? If he resists with deadly force no one is going to fault the police for responding with deadly force. Unfortunately, members of the UN had financial interests in Iraq. Nothing screws up justice more completely than a juror who has an interest in the party being served. That just does not work.

That was '90-'91. Now it's '07 - call it 16 years! It took that long to resolve the original complaint. In the mean time, that neighbor's poperty down the street has become an eyesore, overrun with thugs and petty warlords. Is that a neighbor you want living down the street from you?

We have been involved in Iran/Iraq since the British left. If walking away now would resolve the current problems I'd say do it! But that isn't going to be the answer. We're too deep into it and we've got too much at stake to walk away.

All that sounds like I'm trying to pick on you, Ghost. Not true - I agree with you. Your post just nudged my safety release valve - I'm just lettin' off some steam.

My first responce to the CNN report was to send up a prayer for the guys who let that car pass. I hope they don't hold themselves in any way responsible, thinking they could have prevented the deaths of those children. That must be tearing at their guts, right now.

[XJ Dreamin']

Hear yuh go Dreamin :)

Yeah owned by Corporate America. Kind of an Oxy Moron isn't it ?
That just cracks me up. It's a Conspiracy Man. Funny Stuff !
I read News from AP, Rutgers, Cnn, USA Today, NPR, and I'm supposed to believe Fox News has it all right and all those news agencies are all just out to get the Conservatives. Am I right in that assumption ? I don't watch TV news at all any more. Maybe Comedy Central once in awhile, that is funny stuff too.

Maybe I need to set the scene, here.

Powerman represents the long-haired hippy-type pinko fags.

The 'conservative reactionaries' repesent that one feller with green teeth, the one old drunk chick and the other five big dudes.

Now, where exactly do you stand? Could be you're just the bartender?

[Newbie94XJ]

I say we go in and pull all the civilians out as quickly as possible and we nuke the hell out of Iraq and its friggin insurgents...why cant they just leave our troops alone... we go and try to help and we get killed for it.... they have a screwed up image of god too... they think god wants THEM to kill everyone... if god wanted everyone dead then god would kill us himself right?? its messed up what those people are doing to their own... i say forget the minor rules of war and slaughter the insurgents just slaughter them ... no remorse... is a mosque gets shot up then so friggin be it at least we helped save ourselves and others... plus we need THE ACTUAL MILITARY OUT THERE INSTEAD OF OUR RESERVES

[boise49ers]

No, I remember. I also remember that we put him there. We took over modern day Persia from Britian when they got tired of it, and we haven't done any better job of it than they had.

Here's my take on Iraq - not that it matters. If you have a dog that bites, it's your responsibility to deal with it. Sadam was our dog. When he turned on us and started biting the neighbors it was time to deal with him. We chose to go through the UN. That was fine - the UN can serve as a Grand Jury to issue warrants, internationally. The allied forces served warrants in the name of the UN in the form of Desert Storm. Now, if the police in your town go to serve a warrant on your neighbor down the street because he assulted his neighbor and was beating on his own family, how far can the police go if he resists? If he resists with deadly force no one is going to fault the police for responding with deadly force. Unfortunately, members of the UN had financial interests in Iraq. Nothing screws up justice more completely than a juror who has an interest in the party being served. That just does not work.

That was '90-'91. Now it's '07 - call it 16 years! It took that long to resolve the original complaint. In the mean time, that neighbor's poperty down the street has become an eyesore, overrun with thugs and petty warlords. Is that a neighbor you want living down the street from you?

We have been involved in Iran/Iraq since the British left. If walking away now would resolve the current problems I'd say do it! But that isn't going to be the answer. We're too deep into it and we've got too much at stake to walk away.

All that sounds like I'm trying to pick on you, Ghost. Not true - I agree with you. Your post just nudged my safety release valve - I'm just lettin' off some steam.

My first responce to the CNN report was to send up a prayer for the guys who let that car pass. I hope they don't hold themselves in any way responsible, thinking they could have prevented the deaths of those children. That must be tearing at their guts, right now.

I'm a Moderate. So yes I guess I'm the bar tender. In Idaho though I'm considered Liberal because I don't agree with Far right thinking.

Not that my opinion means anything either, but I totally agree with you that we can't just pull out now. We are in it until we can get some kind of stabilization. I also think we have other things we are there for besides the biting dog. Like the UN we have other interests there. I think we all know what that is. Halliburton didn't move into the neighborhood because they enjoy the weather. I really feel for those guys at the check point too. It is crap like that, that causes these other atrocities we see cropping up now. People lose hope and then just basically say screw it. Like Haditha ! It happens in every War. I know the British got their butts kicked there some 80 year ago. So has everyone else for that matter. What makes any country think they can do it better? Modern Warfare doesn't mean squat against an enemy that has been fighting some one non-stop for thousand of years. Some one mentioned Nam. Great example ! History just repeats its self when you try and be the police for some other country. I remember when Slick Willy went into Sarajevo the Right crusified him for doing exactlly what the right is doing now. War is a double edged sword. The opposing party is always gonna jump on your back when you do it. It's just politics !

[98XJSport]

I wouldn't even consider this modern warfare. Political warfare, maybe.

[boise49ers]

I wouldn't even consider this modern warfare. Political warfare, maybe.
Again Vietnam comes to mind. The longer we stay there the more the politician will get involved and limit the ability to actually fight the War.
Stories like this last one released will make sure of that. Instant information via the internet isn't going to help the Pentagon either. I think everyone has come to realize you have to tread very lightly or get burned. Fallujeh which had a whole bunch of Idaho boys in it is an example. The British Soldier killed by more Idaho boys is another. It is kind of like handing out speeding ticket at the Indy 500, to borrow a line from (Apocalyse Now).

[XJ Dreamin']

I'm a Moderate. So yes I guess I'm the bar tender. In Idaho though I'm considered Liberal because I don't agree with Far right thinking.



Well, that's what I figured. I just wasn't sure you'd picked up on the sarcasm in Powerman's post. I was in Idaho for about 9 months back in '89. Nice place to visit.

So, that's still no nibbles from the conservatives. Must be high pressure today: need to wait for a storm front to get 'em up off the bottom.

[XJ Dreamin']

Again Vietnam comes to mind. The longer we stay there the more the politician will get involved and limit the ability to actually fight the War.
Stories like this last one released will make sure of that. Instant information via the internet isn't going to help the Pentagon either. I think everyone has come to realize you have to tread very lightly or get burned. Fallujeh which had a whole bunch of Idaho boys in it is an example. The British Soldier killed by more Idaho boys is another. It is kind of like handing out speeding ticket at the Indy 500, to borrow a line from (Apocalyse Now).

The media coverage wouldn't matter if the politicians had more spine, and if the Pentagon wasn't so political.

[RichP]

The media coverage wouldn't matter if the politicians had more spine, and if the Pentagon wasn't so political.

Any officer above O-6 is a politician by any other name...

[XJ Dreamin']

Any officer above O-6 is a politician by any other name...

Too true...























...too bad.

[boise49ers]

Maybe we just need some one just dumb enough to be dangerous. Oh wait we don't
need that we already have it. Just making a funny don't hurt me fella's.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/i/f/bush_worstdisaster.jpg

[XJ Dreamin']

Maybe we just need some one just dumb enough to be dangerous. Oh wait we don't

need that we already have it. Just making a funny don't hurt me fella's.


http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/i/f/bush_worstdisaster.jpg

That's not trolling Boise - that's called 'fishing with Dynamite!'

I gots to go, but you fellas have at 'im and I'll check-in tonight for the funeral arrangements. good luck Boise.

[boise49ers]

That's not trolling Boise - that's called 'fishing with Dynamite!'

I gots to go, but you fellas have at 'im and I'll check-in tonight for the funeral arrangements. good luck Boise.

What are you saying ? That maybe I better hang out on the Sierra Club forums :gag:
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Sorry for the hi-jack I'm done too.

[Boatwrench]

Any officer above O-6 is a politician by any other name...

It's worse than that...it's a whole lot lower in the food chain than O6...Hell there's even some E7-E9 playing that crap...but not us warrants...:rolleyes:

[Bdiddy11]

Sad what extremists will do...I think they might be jealous of our soldiers...

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3596/viewphoto2tz6.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=viewphoto2tz6.jpg)

or maybe because the kids want to help us?


http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3971/viewphotolk4.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=viewphotolk4.jpg)
So much money going to the army and this is the best we can do...

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8022/viewphoto3yk8.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=viewphoto3yk8.jpg)

Sucks that things like what happend actually happen...But can you expect from those who are devoted to sacrificing themselves because they believe their god will be pleased with them? Extremists will do whatever... kill themselves so their family has a great life. Maybe if Hillary did that Bill would be happy? There are so many things you can say about what's going on over there... so many opinions and sides you can take. Why we're there, why we should pull out, what's the real reason we're there, why does the U.S. have to be the world police... so many questions, so many different answers/thoughts/opinions. Will it ever end? We'd like to hope so...

All I gotta say is... no matter if you are for or against the war...I'm glad some people are crazy enough to go over there and do what I'm not doing...

U.S.A. numba 1!

P.S. I don't really belong to a political party... just have my opinions...

[motorcityxj]

No, I remember. I also remember that we put him there. We took over modern day Persia from Britian when they got tired of it, and we haven't done any better job of it than they had.

Here's my take on Iraq - not that it matters. If you have a dog that bites, it's your responsibility to deal with it. Sadam was our dog. When he turned on us and started biting the neighbors it was time to deal with him. We chose to go through the UN. That was fine - the UN can serve as a Grand Jury to issue warrants, internationally. The allied forces served warrants in the name of the UN in the form of Desert Storm. Now, if the police in your town go to serve a warrant on your neighbor down the street because he assulted his neighbor and was beating on his own family, how far can the police go if he resists? If he resists with deadly force no one is going to fault the police for responding with deadly force. Unfortunately, members of the UN had financial interests in Iraq. Nothing screws up justice more completely than a juror who has an interest in the party being served. That just does not work.

That was '90-'91. Now it's '07 - call it 16 years! It took that long to resolve the original complaint. In the mean time, that neighbor's poperty down the street has become an eyesore, overrun with thugs and petty warlords. Is that a neighbor you want living down the street from you?

We have been involved in Iran/Iraq since the British left. If walking away now would resolve the current problems I'd say do it! But that isn't going to be the answer. We're too deep into it and we've got too much at stake to walk away.

All that sounds like I'm trying to pick on you, Ghost. Not true - I agree with you. Your post just nudged my safety release valve - I'm just lettin' off some steam.

My first responce to the CNN report was to send up a prayer for the guys who let that car pass. I hope they don't hold themselves in any way responsible, thinking they could have prevented the deaths of those children. That must be tearing at their guts, right now.


Its a stretch to say we "put him there". Sadam was a go getter politically, and he murdered and intimidated his way to the top of the secrect police. It was then he murdered his way to the ulitimate top. We (the west, the us, or the oil companies) didnt pluck Saddam from obscurity as some goat farmer, and instill him as overlord.

If you mean we "put him there" by not assasinating him as a young up'n commer then yes. We didnt "make him". He was a sick sociopath as a teeanger and had commited murder and was a thug. We didnt corrupt him, he didnt "play" us. He rose we didnt stop him, and when we were on good terms with him, it was a lesser of two evils (the more evil being iran).

I dont know how this "we made him" legend got so popular.

[5-90]

It's worse than that...it's a whole lot lower in the food chain than O6...Hell there's even some E7-E9 playing that crap...but not us warrants...:rolleyes:

Yeah, you get some senior non-coms playing politics - but I think that's more from trying to cover their arses with the officers, than any desire on their own part.

Still, a soldier is not supposed to be a political animal, and politics have no place in warfare. After all, "war" is what happens when "politics" doesn't work anymore.

Hearing all the stories of politics in uniform is disheartening - almost as bad as hearing about politicking anywhere else. What the Hell causes all this nonsense, anyhow? Is it something in the water? If it is, I'll stick to rum - hasn't caused me any trouble yet...

[heyjpark1]

I say turn the Middle East into glass.

[Ghost]

I say turn the Middle East into glass.
I like glass!

[XJ Dreamin']

Its a stretch to say we "put him there". Sadam was a go getter politically, and he murdered and intimidated his way to the top of the secrect police. It was then he murdered his way to the ulitimate top. We (the west, the us, or the oil companies) didnt pluck Saddam from obscurity as some goat farmer, and instill him as overlord.

If you mean we "put him there" by not assasinating him as a young up'n commer then yes. We didnt "make him". He was a sick sociopath as a teeanger and had commited murder and was a thug. We didnt corrupt him, he didnt "play" us. He rose we didnt stop him, and when we were on good terms with him, it was a lesser of two evils (the more evil being iran).

I dont know how this "we made him" legend got so popular.

Wow. I'm not sure how to respond to that. Here is a short history of US/Hussain involvement (http://www.juancole.com/2006/12/for-whom-bell-tolls-top-ten-ways-us.html) by Juan Cole. Yes, Hussain was a sociopathic thug before he came to the attention of US handlers, but that is exactly why he came to notice at all - we thought we needed a thug. You get what you pay for.

[XJ Dreamin']

I like glass!

It's recyclable.

[nubs]

Just let our warriors go and fight the war and quit the armchair quarter-backing by our "elected officials". War is ugly by definition. Let the SHOOTERS SHOOT! We let our troops do their job it will be over!

[5-90]

War should be avoided - war is ugly.

However, if war is not to be avoided, it should be prosecuted as rapidly, and bloodily, and as personally as possible; setting the Rules of Engagement so that the maximum of casualties is generated on the other side, and the minimum of casualties inflicted upon friendly forces.

Ideally, the ground should be thoroughly pasted before boots are on the ground, with key military and strategic targets identified and reduced to rubble before it becomes a tactical engagement.

If it comes down to a matter of "lob a few neutron bombs in, and send the MEF in six weeks to paint the stripes," so be it. Go back to the second principle, above.

If this is done enough, there are two possibilities. Which one comes to pass will depend upon the resolve and capabilities we have:

1) If we lack resolve and capability, the strategy may be used against us. This is what we'd get for pussyfooting around - given the current brand of "elected leadership" (I'm not sure who elected them, and they damn sure aren't leading) this may be just what we need to separate the wheat from the chaff.

2) If we demonstrate sufficient resolve, and convince everyone else of our capability, we will set up a Pax Americana - and, essentially, outlaw war among world nations.

The second, obviously, is the more desirable outcome - but it raises yet another question. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who guards the guards? A Pax Americana would be a first step toward true world peace - but it could be a good first step, if it is taken. It doesn't seem like anyone else will be ready to take it - so we must.

I think it's just a matter of someone in the White House with the stones to think independently, and damn what Gallup, Roeper, Zogby, or whatever other polls say. Take the larger view, and do what is ultimately right, not whatever will get you re-elected.

[nubs]

As a whole not withstanding our Gov. we have the stones to kick a lot of ass! Again this does not seem to be a soldiers war, it seems to have turned into a bunch of weaktit non-warrior babble b-tch-s war while our sons and daughters our handcuffed again trying fight. Try walking into a bar and tell the biggest guy your gonna kick his ass with both hands tied behind your back. You might win but you are gonna take a few on the chin. But if you know how to win and given the CHANCE you will win!

[5-90]

As a whole not withstanding our Gov. we have the stones to kick a lot of ass! Again this does not seem to be a soldiers war, it seems to have turned into a bunch of weaktit non-warrior babble b-tch-s war while our sons and daughters our handcuffed again trying fight. Try walking into a bar and tell the biggest guy your gonna kick his ass with both hands tied behind your back. You might win but you are gonna take a few on the chin. But if you know how to win and given the CHANCE you will win!

By no means did I say we wouldn't take casualties with the general strategy I'd outlined - but, I'd far rather trade a hundred, or a thousand, of them - for one of us. The farther I can tip that ratio, the happier I'll be

Hell, if we can be feared to the point where we just drop in a dozen men to "occupy" an area previously "pacified," I'll take it! That would be the key to a Pax Americana tho - we keep the peace because we're the baddest ba*****s on the block, and make sure everyone else knows it.

Especially when dealing with extremists of any stripe (which, generally, includes terrorists - they're extremists of some agenda,) the idea is for them to know that, should they commit one single act that harms one single person to whatever degree; they'll know - they'll know - in their heart of hearts that we'll hunt them down and kill them all with less emotion than you'd have shooting a rabid dog (after all, it's probably not the dog's fault he got rabies in the first place. These people make a conscious decision to attack unarmed and "soft" <militarily speaking> targets. Why? Because civilians don't usually shoot back. They want to die for their cause. I say, let's give them the opportunity to do so. Soonest.)

Will we lose people? It's always a possibility, and it's called "taking a soldier's chance" for a reason. Will we regret losing people? Probably. Will we learn something from it - so we don't lose so many people next time? Hell, I hope so.

But, with all our technology, brains, and know-how learned from 1960 forward (assuming there are people who started learning lessons in Vietnam - I'm not so sure...) there's no reason we can't maintain a consistent kill ratio of 100:1 in dealing with these people. Full stop.

If our kill ratio is 10:1 when dealing with people who haven't really advanced past the Medieval era, we're probably doing something wrong. If our kill ratio is 1:1, then we're definitely doing something wrong.

We have SEAL Six and SFOD-Delta. We have the rest of the SEAL teams, we have Army Special Forces, we have Marine Force Recon. There is no reason whatever to have all the highly-trained and very expensive people sitting on their hands, given the current world situation. Training and equipment comes to about a million to a million and a half dollars a man, on the hoof. Why are they doing nothing? I'm willing to bet that, to a man, they're all willing to go out and do what they've been training to do, and get out of their way!

Apart from politics and "being politically correct" and worrying overmuch about "world opinion," there's no reason that we can't start collecting heads. Why isn't the "Most Wanted" deck of cards posted on a corkboard somewhere, with one guy whose job it is to check the heads that just came in while he's got a marker in his hand, to cross off the cards? The only thing that really holds us up is politics - because they're all waiting for spine donors to give them a backbone and do what honestly needs doing.

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular." Given a choice between the two, I'd rather be right than popular. Just like I'd rather someone look me in the eye and say something I don't want to hear that is on his mind anyhow, than to try to look behind my eyes, figure out what I want to hear, and tell me that. Granted, people who do that are usually A) cowards, and B) wrong.

If we start making our more popular attitudes known to the rest of the world, and do what we say we're going to do, then it should be easier to get people to keep themselves in line.

Profiling at the airport? Sure - when they start bitching, we just tell them to get their brethren under control. Police your own community, and we won't have to.

Frankly, if we're going to insist upon "playing GloboCop," then let's do it properly, hm?

[Powerman]

As a whole not withstanding our Gov. we have the stones to kick a lot of ass! Again this does not seem to be a soldiers war, it seems to have turned into a bunch of weaktit non-warrior babble b-tch-s war while our sons and daughters our handcuffed again trying fight. Try walking into a bar and tell the biggest guy your gonna kick his ass with both hands tied behind your back. You might win but you are gonna take a few on the chin. But if you know how to win and given the CHANCE you will win!

I only quoted you because it was shorter than 5-90's. You guys have great rants. It would be nice if they were true. What are you talking about tied hands? What are you talking about politics and approval?

I won't even get into wether I agree or not with the decisions, but let's just review.

Bush goes to Afganistan. That's not enough.
Bush tells the world to piss off and invades Iraq.
Uses overwhelming millitary might to squash an ant.
Placed all the troops he wanted there.
Threw all money they wanted at the problem without any regard of how to pay for it.
Ships over 12 billion for pocket money.
Torture, no problem. Do what you need to.
Civil liberties, overrated. Do what ever you need to to get the intel.
Due process, doesn't apply in Syria. Ship them there.
Current troop levels are not enough so they extend tours and send more and more national guard.
New blood comes to D.C. and says they don't approve. Not only does Bush say he don't care, he says I'll raise you 50,000 more troops.

Let's just say I agree with all that. Where are all the tied hands? Where are all the troops they won't let fight? Where is all the pussy footin' around?

We have had united leadership for the whole time. Even with that, the mightiest fighting force on the planet can't squash a bunch of IED making goat herders. Not because of tied hands, but because it is the wrong tool for the job. What is your grand plan to win a war with no fronts, and no enemy? The enemy hides among the civillians, and the civillians are unable, or unwilling to do anything to change that. What exactly is a SEAL team going to do to that? Nothing.

I for one get teary eyed at the sight of a mushroom cloud, but enough already with the nukes. It will never happen, nor should it. If the greatest country on Earth can't whoop their ass with the millitary we have, then we are no longer a super power.

[98XJSport]

Most of what you say is true in regards to the troops are there, more than enough to squash an ant, etc. But we are sitting there, hand over the ant, and doing... nothing. We could have stepped on it and not even known. Of course, that means others from the anthill might die, but it's better than waiting for the ant to bite before you do anything. And then when the next one comes along you can't crush it, even though it looks exactly like the one that just bit you. Hell we could have wiped out the whole colony without even stepping on thier lawn... Thats where I think our hands are tied by politics.

[Powerman]

Most of what you say is true in regards to the troops are there, more than enough to squash an ant, etc. But we are sitting there, hand over the ant, and doing... nothing. We could have stepped on it and not even known. Of course, that means others from the anthill might die, but it's better than waiting for the ant to bite before you do anything. And then when the next one comes along you can't crush it, even though it looks exactly like the one that just bit you. Hell we could have wiped out the whole colony without even stepping on thier lawn... Thats where I think our hands are tied by politics.

I'm not taking you all literal, but what you are really talking about is genocide. There are some that do not distinguish, and believe they should all die. Nuke em' all! Why? What for? The Japs, Germans, and Ruskies threatened our very existence. Terrorists do not. No Great Army, no Air Force, no Navy, no ICBMs. They are nothing but a 3 year old kicking us in the shins. Yes they would like to do more, but they do not have the means and never will. If they didn't have oil we wouldn't even talk to them. So we put up with their tantrums because controling oil is in our National intrest. Both having it, and keeping it from others.

We did not declare war on Afghanistan and Iraq. We declared war on Saddam Heussin and Osama and his organization. So far we have only accomplishied one of those. If you believe we need to conquer the Middle East, that is a whole different thread.

[98XJSport]

When a whole culture/religion (extremists, I know, but still...) that has a huge population that will kill themselves if it takes you down as well is pretty threatening in my books. And can't be fought by singling the "bad ones" out of a crowd, for example.

Then again, in my books aiding or remaining silent in favor of the bad makes the offender just as bad.

[Powerman]

When a whole culture/religion (extremists, I know, but still...) that has a huge population that will kill themselves if it takes you down as well is pretty threatening in my books. And can't be fought by singling the "bad ones" out of a crowd, for example.

Then again, in my books aiding or remaining silent in favor of the bad makes the offender just as bad.

"extremist" is the key word. If the whole culture/religion wanted to do us in, all they would have to do was turn off the oil faucet. They could put us on our knees in one day. They could sell it cheap to China and Russia for their support. Then you might have a case for declaring them a threat to our national security. Then you might have a case for a tactical nuclear strike. But instead their leaders sell us oil, and their peasants throw rocks and build IEDs. We threaten them with anihilation if they don't do what we want, while their 3 year old kicks us in the shins. We get gas at $3.00 a gallon when the rest of the world is at $6.00 and cry at the outrage. I don't see the need for population extermination there.

Erroding our Constitution, compromising our principals, and sacrificing our rights are much bigger threats to our way of life than a terrorist in the Middle East using 2 kids to blow up 4 people. RichP's OP is about how sad it is that innocents and children are dying. If we should just nuke them all then who cares. Just let them keep killing each other and they will do the job for us. However, that is not what this country was founded on. It was founded on freedom. Kids should have the freedom from being blown up in a car for some sick ass's political argument. No society has ever prospered from throwing away the wheat with the chaff.

[boise49ers]

When a whole culture/religion (extremists, I know, but still...) that has a huge population that will kill themselves if it takes you down as well is pretty threatening in my books. And can't be fought by singling the "bad ones" out of a crowd, for example.

Then again, in my books aiding or remaining silent in favor of the bad makes the offender just as bad.
There are more Muslim extremists in Africa then anywhere else on earth. What are we doing about it ? Are we so afraid of theses guys that we will totally do away with every principle we stand for ? I think it is stupid. If they happen to sneak into our country it isn't like they can bring a whole frickin army, and if they did we would have all our resources tied up any way. What if up and coming China desides we are a threat to world stability (which I think lately we are)and decides to invade next month. What are we going to do then ? Learn to speak Chinese is my guess or turn earth into an inferno. Remember when we were going into Vietnam because of the communist threat to our freedom ? Well the good ole Demos stood up and threw a fit and now the only difference in Vietnam is they don't have as many cell phones as us. They are using these same ole tactics to try and convince everyone we are in Iraq for freedom, but not in Africa,or South America, or Cuba or any where else for Freedom. I say we should think outside of the box. Research history and quit playing partisan politics with our boys and girls. Bring them home and protect America not Iraq. Economics plays as large a part in our dicisions as does religion in theirs anymore. Scarey to think that is what makes policey, but it is whether we care to admit it or not.
Jmo Again !
Oh and by the way I'm not poo pooing on your opinions I just have strong feeling towards politcal War after losing a few of my people in Vietnam and then have it all for not. Losing our youth should always be a last resort. They should recruit us old farts too. We are all pissed most of the time any way. What better people to send over. :)

[98XJSport]

There are more Muslim extremists in Africa then anywhere else on earth. What are we doing about it ? Are we so afraid of theses guys that we will totally do away with every principle we stand for ? I think it is stupid. If they happen to sneak into our country it isn't like they can bring a whole frickin army, and if they did we would have all our resources tied up any way. What if up and coming China desides we are a threat to world stability (which I think lately we are)and decides to invade next month. What are we going to do then ? Learn to speak Chinese is my guess or turn earth into an inferno. Remember when we were going into Vietnam because of the communist threat to our freedom ? Well the good ole Demos stood up and threw a fit and now the only difference in Vietnam is they don't have as many cell phones as us. They are using these same ole tactics to try and convince everyone we are in Iraq for freedom, but not in Africa,or South America, or Cuba or any where else for Freedom. I say we should think outside of the box. Research history and quit playing partisan politics with our boys and girls. Bring them home and protect America not Iraq. Economics plays as large a part in our dicisions as does religion in theirs anymore. Scarey to think that is what makes policey, but it is whether we care to admit it or not.
Jmo Again !
Oh and by the way I'm not poo pooing on your opinions I just have strong feeling towards politcal War after losing a few of my people in Vietnam and then have it all for not. Losing our youth should always be a last resort. They should recruit us old farts too. We are all pissed most of the time any way. What better people to send over. :)


Thats basically what I was trying to get across, we are over there for reasons more political than "war". If we were in a true war we would be going after muslim extremists everywhere, and be at war with any country that aided or harbored them. But we aren't. Thats where I see our hands tied, our technologically advanced army crippled.

[boise49ers]

I just have strong feeling towards politcal War after losing a few of my people in Vietnam and then have it all for not.
Let me clarify " my people ". I was not there I was a teenager when we pulled out. We lost a lot of neighborhood kids and cousins over there. I reread it and it sounded like I was talking about fellow soldiers. Though I enlisted at the tail end only to lose an eye right before I went to Ft. Rucker.

[MudDawg]

It is a well developed and calculated plan to use whatever means to intimidate "us"....they want to appear ruthless and brutal....to "scare" us. They want us to know they WANT to die to "gain their reward"....The bitter taste in my mouth is from the cowardly bastards with their hidden faces and their random killings.

They are not intimidating me or any other red blooded freedom loving person that has a set of stones. What they do is piss me off....precisely NOT what they are trying to do...they want us scared like school girls on a night hike on the woods.

What do we do?? say PLEASE Mr. Habib sir don't fly any more planes into our buildings....or PLEASE don't bomb the markets....or we would REALLY appreciate it if you don't build, buy or steal a nuke and set it off in the town square.

How do you deal with people like that?? There are only two ways...drop trou and let them have their way with you or fight.....not some half hearted thump on the ear....but bulging eyed red faced screaming overwhelming trampling until they are a wet spot in the mud....and look 'em in the eye and tell 'em that is exactly what you are going to do....and do it....until they give up or we die trying. If we don't do it there we will be doing it here...it's just a matter of time...

Thats what the world is doomed to come to anyway....eventually it will be tooth and claw over the remaining resources this old planet has....I say go down with your fist in the air.

[GSequoia]

a wet spot in the mud

Isn't that redundant?

[boise49ers]

they want us scared like school girls on a night hike on the woods.
I was talking about our people like to use the scare tactics. To listen to them they will be at our door step tomorrow if we pulled out just part of the troops. Screw those assholes over there. They have no sense of reality which makes them very dangerous, but they keep blowing themselves up.:hang: Bet their pissed when they find Ala is a bunch of crap.:bawl:
By then I guess its to late, at least their dead. I think if we spent half of that money on Border Security and Airline Security that we spend on Iraq we could keep the bastards out of here just fine. We need to quit giving visas to every MF that wants one and screen everyone thourghly before allowing them in. If they do sneak in we are armed well and can take them out. Keep the National Guard actually guarding us like they joined up to do. Jmo ! DMS
:peace:

[Blaine B.]

They blow up kids in cars.....

........then we make a fuss when some Iraqi prisioners are strapped together naked?

Get real.

[MudDawg]

Good catch....I intended "greasy spot in the mud".