1.75" square tubing EXO ??

[barillms]

I'm not going to buy a tube bender... so I'm gonna make my EXO out of square. This is an off road only Jeep, and I don't care how it looks to be honest.
I can get 24' sticks for dirt cheap compared to HREW or DOM.
I think my local shop sells full sticks of 1.75" .25 wall for $50-60.

First off, using 1.75" square, what wall thickness to use? I don't want to add TOO MUCH weight.

Second of all....
At my bends, should I notch a pie wedge out and bend, then reweld the seam
OR... just butt-weld the ends together?

Or is there a better way to do this using square tubing?

[FarmerMatt]

If you don't care what it looks like than what's the point of the exo? An exo is to protect the sheet metal...

[aszaunmi]

An exo can also be used so you preserve the room inside. I don't care much about my sheet metal. However I have 4 other people myself and 2 dogs to fit into my jeep sometimes when we go to the lake. A cage inside will not work with all of them. I am going the exo route to help protect us and not loose the function of a cherokee.

Just my thoughts, Not sure what kind of square steel you should use.

[Weasel]

as thin as you can get it I would think, it's gonna be heavy no matter what. I would cut nothces bend it and then weld.

[ashmanjeepxj]

At my bends, should I notch a pie wedge out and bend, then reweld the seam OR... just butt-weld the ends together?

Or is there a better way to do this using square tubing?

Do you have any experienced buddies that could help you.

If you dont know how to mate box tube you dont have a chance at notching round tube.

[barillms]

Do you have any experienced buddies that could help you.

If you dont know how to mate box tube you dont have a chance at notching round tube.

I'm not using round tube, so I won't be notching it.
As far as butt welding square tubing, it's not rocket science... I think I can handle it.

As for the first reply up top... External cages aren't to protect sheetmetal. Girly-men that care about sheetmetal shouldn't be wheeling in the first place.
Exo cages, and ALL cages for that matter are to protect the driver and passengers. Sheet metal, lol.

And I agree with you 100% about the room factor. I have an MJ, you put a cage inside an MJ cab and it's gonna be cramped bad.

[Jes]

:rolleyes:

[Porch Puppy]

As for the first reply up top... External cages aren't to protect sheetmetal. Girly-men that care about sheetmetal shouldn't be wheeling in the first place.
.

:worship: ............................:rolleyes:

[Paul S]

:roflmao: :worship: ............................:rolleyes:

[IntrepidXJ]

i think you should use hitch steel....should be plenty strong in this application.....screw weight!

[Gaius]

Use 3x3 3/8 structural tubing. Go big or go home, He-man.

[Timber]

External cages aren't to protect sheetmetal. Girly-men that care about sheetmetal shouldn't be wheeling in the first place.
Exo cages, and ALL cages for that matter are to protect the driver and passengers. Sheet metal, lol.
I don't know about the "girly-men" bit, but I have always wondered about the whole exo-cage-being-to-protect-the-sheetmetal thing. I figured, if someone cares so much about his sheetmetal, he wouldn't be wheeling it or putting a scaled-down version of the Eiffel Tower around it.

[Onkover]

The plans that I have invisioned for an Exo were based alot on the fact that I am a big guy that needs the space. I do run with my wife and kids in the rig also so the safety factor is why I have even thought about a cage.

I have seen Toyota guys build out of square stock and it doesn't look that bad. Noching different angles I believe would be the hard part.

[barillms]

Think about this... Full stick of 24' square 1.5" square .25" wall is $73.
1.5" square 1/8" wall is only $49 for a 24' stick.

I'm gonna get a stick of each to start (.25" wall & .125") Use the .25 wall for main supports, and the lighter 1/8" wall for tube fenders and other things to save weight.

24" of 1.75 OD x .25 wall DOM or HREW is much much more!
I can't afford that shit.

Plus, I don' have a tube bender, and don't plan on getting one.
Square is cheap, strong and I can work with it easily in my garage.

Plus not having to notch out each round tube end to mate them is really nice too. Notching square will be cake.

[LOJim]

I was looking at a square exo for my XJ as well. Let me know how it works for you and if you decide to notch or cut and butt. Once you do start - post up some pics so we can see how it's going. Best of luck!

[the glassman]

a guy here in tx did this with his zj and it held up but the looks where questionable.
i used 1 7/8 1/8 wall tube that is 27 bucks for 21 foot and bought a HF bender and whent to town on it and was easier than i thought it would be.
the notching is easy just try to make as many 90 degree notchs as possible.

the HF bender is 70 bucks and the notcher was 25 bucks.

The problem with cut and weld joints on square is when you roll and land on a weld joint the square will rip at the weld instead of bending to absorb the impact. Thats why most cages try to have the main hoop one piece up and over or front to back.
juswt my 2cents

[madmax]

your jokeing right

[CW]

I have an internal cage and have no issues with room. I still have four seats and a lot of cargo area. I'm 6'4" and the interior space is fine. A square exo will look like crap, be rediculously heavy, and basically suck. Why not just oder a D&C cage and call it good? A cage is not something that you should skimp on, it's too important to be cheep with.

[twisted_ed]

Well I am building a exo, becuase I want to protect the body, I like wheeling, and wheeling hardcore, but I also like my jeep to look good, the cage is good for that, it also will end the expensive stuff like smashing windows etc. and most importantly it will allow me to lean up against trees and stuff to get through tight spots on the trail, and if I were to roll the damage is kept to a minimum protecting the unibody. I dont think protecting my investment makes me a girly man, it only makes thoses that say that sound like an ass

[barillms]

Nobody is joking here. Not all us rich-boys can afford to grab dad's plastic and have the local fab shop build us a custom cage for $3,000.

A square tubing cage is strong if not stronger than round.
An exo can be tied into the front bumper, and rockers acting as an addition to the unibody making the overall vehicle stronger and more rigid all around.

The difference is, the material is square... that's it.
There's no show and shine contest where I wheel, just lots of trees and mud.

If I can build a strong, functional external cage in my garage at home for under $250 then why not do it.

[DirtyMJ]

A square tubing cage is strong if not stronger than round.



Ya sure of that?

[CW]

Nobody is joking here. Not all us rich-boys can afford to grab dad's plastic and have the local fab shop build us a custom cage for $3,000.


Weld in cage kits can be had for under $500 shipped and I don't know many shops that would charge 3K for a cage (maybe a chassis). You might need to use your own plastic but you are seriously exagerating the costs of a well built cage.

[madmax]

my exo cage cost me $400

[BIGMO32]

if your going to do it do it right the first time. if you say you cant afford it right now then wait. better to spend the cash and do it right the first time then have to spend even more money by having to make a second one. also did you ever wonder why dom or hrew is more expensive then square tubing?

[Capt. Nemo]

I'm interested to see where this thread ends up and to see pics of the results. It's been an entertaining read to this point...

So what I understand up to this point is that:

-"Girly men" care about sheet metal and shouldn't be wheeling, yet you want to build an exo cage to protect that sheet metal (among other things, yes I know...).

-You are wheeling in Ohio (I grew up in NE Ohio) where there is mud and trees, yet an exo will make the rig wider and heavier, both of which are disadvantages in trees and mud.

-You've got a guy a few posts up who's defending the exo idea claiming that he wheels "hardcore" on an open D30 front and 32's.

If you really want cheap - build a small internal cage protecting just the driver/passenger area and call it good.

On a side note: Since Paragon is closed/closing, and Wellsville is privately owned now and closed/closing, and Attica is at least 6+ hours away from Eastern Ohio, where do you go wheeling?

[87xjco]

Seems to me i've seen several threads from guys who were set on building their cage out of square tube.

But then we never actually get to see the end result, is that cause they did it and were to embarrased to show it?

Is it because they got talked out of it and built one out of round?

Is it because it was all just talk to begin with and nothing ever got built?

Is it because they rolled from being top heavy and collapsed, killing the drivers?

I for one would like to see one actually get done, doesn't mean I won't make fun of it, but i'd sure like to see some pic's of it.

And i'd really like someone to do a real clean job of it, and maybe even prove everyone wrong.

Don't think it will happen though!

I do remeber seeing a picture of one, I think it was on a Datsun truck, it was UGLY!!

[barillms]

We wheel at Wellsville and many many other spots locally. Wellsville isn't closing and won't ever.
Eastern Ohio is loaded with trails and so is South Eastern Ohio, Wayne National Forest, Ludlow and
many places you don't know about homey. My back yard perhaps! (Better than Wellsville :)

Other guy:
So square is heavy, but round isn't? lol...
So an exo round doesn't make your rig wider? What are we saying here... ??
I might add 150-200lbs.... that's not gonna hurt anything.
So you're saying adding tools and your full size spare weight to your rig on ride day hurts the performance in the mud because of weight? Well, just leave your spare at home next time to be safe.

Round tubing such as HREW is more expensive because there's a less demand and because the process to make something perfectly round is more involved than making square material.

I have a feeling nobody has done it, that's why there are no pics.
I may be the first... A pioneer shall we say? Ahh hell, I can't wait to build my $200 exo cage and paint is florescent pink to make everybody who lays eyes on her shutter with terror.

[CW]

Round tubing will wiegh less than square tubing and a square edge will have a harder time sliding over a tree than a a round surface. If you are set on doing it, go for it. At least if a bend or joint fails on an exo it most likely won't hit anybody inside the jeep. Take pics and enjoy your ugly jeep with pink paint. I really don't think a cage is anything to cheap out on but others seem to think it's worth the risk.

[barillms]

Better than nothing... and that's what I have now.
Its not about expensive material, it's about design. And I happen to be a designer.

[DirtyMJ]

Its not about expensive material, it's about design. And I happen to be a designer.



Actually, that's horrid logic. The design of a round member is superiour to a square one when the load is not going to be from a predicatable plane. So, you're making a compromise in design to make up for it with a better design? That is, unless everything I've read was based purely on myth (there's a thread on here that states square is stronger in every way - I read it and kinda went 'wtf?')



Whatever. I think you can do it an make it work. I actually want you to do it and beat the piss out of it to see what happens. I have an idea that involves square that would see similar usage - but I don't talk about it openly.

[CW]

Better than nothing... and that's what I have now.
Its not about expensive material, it's about design. And I happen to be a designer.

The better than nothing logic toward cage building is one of the scariest an most persistant ideas in the offroading world. A cage built out of the wrong material will cause more damage than no cage at all. It a piece of 2" tubing comes loose and strikes you, it will hurt and that cage will provide very little if any additional role protection because it failed. Use lots of gussets, and triangles. And being a "designer" doesn't make you immune from bad desicions or hard roles on the trail. Building it right the first time should apply to cages above all.

[IHCJ9]

Round tube has a less chance of buckling and or collapsing under compression than square tube. But think of it this way, how many vehicles with exo-cages have you seen roll and have zero or minimal damage to the cage and body. A Exo-cage is nice when bouncing off of trees and rocks. If you are going to use the square, use the 1/4 wall for the rockers and main pillars, maybe even the front fenders if you are going to bounce off of trees, and the 1/8 wall for everything else. I had 2x2 1/8 square tubing as a rear bumbper and wrap around fender protection for a while on my CJ and wheeled it pretty hard with Dana 44's and 38's, and didn't have a problem. And lots of times, that bumbper was the only thing supporting the jeep from tipping back.

If you use the thin material, avoid long sections of tubing, I.E. brace it whenever possible. I have seen a few XJ's with the Exo-cage tied into the body. If built properly, that can stiffen the body greatly and offer protection in roll overs. It is a lot easier to bend/buckle steel than a lot of people think. I say go for it as long as you take the time to do it right.
Oh and post pics of the build please.

[IHCJ9]

Oh yeah, bending the square tube over and then welding it is nice because you strain harden the steel, but then the heat from the weld anneals it anyway. You might be better off just cutting it completely and than butt welding it. This will avoid some of the residual stress left over after welding. You may also want to go over the joints with a propane torch and heat it to a VERY dull glow, and than let it air cool to remove all of the residual stresses in the cage.

[barillms]

Making 90s you cut two wedges out, so it's takes two 45 bends a couple inches apart to form the 90s for the main pillers. The cross braces will be butt-welded and gussets will be used.

[barillms]

This is how to properly make 90s with square tubing,
You don't butt weld 90s. You may apply heat to help bend

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/barillms/90.jpg

[rockjock]

just my two cents but 21' of 1 5/8 3/16 wall hrew here in indiana is $53 I will have $212 in my roll cage. when it is said and done. I'm 6-2 and 300 lbs plenty of room I hardly notice its there. I bent mine with the exhaust bender here at the shop I manage.
Square tubing is not the safest idea. When was the last time you saw a professional rock crawler run square tubing?
I have rolled mine without a cage. I would rather do it without than do it with the wrong one. Wellsville is cool but not as extreme as some other places I wheeled.

Like I said just my 2 cents

Scott

[mattyg]

question for all
square tube or shd40 for an exo??
built by machinists, welders and fabricators

[88rockxj]

question for all
square tube or shd40 for an exo??
built by machinists, welders and fabricators


sched 40 pipe, make sure its structural pipe astm a53

quite a few formula offroad buggies are built out of it, and most structural towers and large cranes lifting thousands of tons are built of pipe.

[LOJim]

Personally, I commend you for having a new idea. Round tube is used most often for a reason - it works best. That is not to say that square is not good. Of the 2 I would use square as well. My reasoning for square is also "because it's different." There are a lot of people saying that it will look ugly or look like ass - it's your rig so it just has to look good in your eyes. Keep in mind that just because a cage is built from round does not mean it's stronger than a cage built from square - it's all in the build quality. Just take your time and don't skimp on materials. On the design I came up with (a design is just a design until it's built) I have myself using square bar stock for the main supports and tie ins, but then tube for the other supports. It does add weight, but you made a good comment earlier - what doesn't add weight? Best of luck in your build of YOUR cage! Don't let anyone change your mind on what works for YOUR rig!:peace:

[barillms]

What about 1.5" square instead of 1.75" with .125" wall ?? Too light?

[mattyg]

sched 40 pipe, make sure its structural pipe astm a53

quite a few formula offroad buggies are built out of it, and most structural towers and large cranes lifting thousands of tons are built of pipe.

same goes for square tubing
i think square tubing is used more in structural stuff(cranes and towers) than shd 40 pipe

[88rockxj]

same goes for square tubing
i think square tubing is used more in structural stuff(cranes and towers) than shd 40 pipe

i disagree, i see alot more towers and cranes built of pipe (not sched40 necessarily) because imo round is better when you have forces coming from multipile directions. if you know and can control which direction the force is coming from then square is stronger, that is why round is better for a cage. becuase there are forces coming from different directions. schd 40 is just a good size for what we do, i will be building my next exo with it along with a couple dom pieces.

square is uglier and not as strong for this application IMO, strength should come first and formost!

besides having built two exos of pipe this is all from what ive read, i very well could be wrong.

[barillms]

You seriously used pipe? I thought that was a huge No No?

[Bender]

Come on guys...the strength difference between a 1.75" O.D tube or pipe and 1.75" square tube with similar wall thicknesses is pretty minimal assuming they are of a similar grade of steel...i.e. A53 Grade B pipe has a yield strength of 35 ksi and the minimum for structural steel is 36 ksi. When comparing these two options your strength comes from a good design and good fabrication practices. Point being you can make a fine cage out of square tube if the connections are strong and the design is sound...it will just look pretty fugly!

Obviously this doesn't hold true if you start comparing structural steel square tube to some higher strength round tube but that again can be addressed in the design.

[88rockxj]

You seriously used pipe? I thought that was a huge No No?


for webwheelers that dont know what the f thier talking about, no its not as good as tube but like bender mentioned the design is far more important.

search the internet and find me a picture of a failed cage due to being built of pipe and ill show you 10 pictures of failed cages built of dom, like i said before its been done and it works. one of the formula offroad guys over on pirate also posted that many of the formula offroad buggys over seas are built of pipe, those things get tossed down steep hills rolling end over end violently. i feel perfectly comfortable building my exo out of pipe, the internal x bracing on mine will be built of dom but most will be pipe.

bender round is stronger in some cases and square is stronger in others, but like i said earlier when you have multiple directions of force the round tube/pipe will spread that force out to more material within itself. square will usualy apply that force to two of the flat surfaces, but as you said it is very minimal in difference.

[mattyg]

i feel perfectly comfortable building my exo out of pipe, the internal x bracing on mine will be built of dom but most will be pipe.
.

i have never seen an exo with an interior x
not that it has never been done
i plan on a pipe exo with interior x, i need to see a pic to visualize it(duh) i'll need one behind front seats and rear seats
any pics out there

[88rockxj]

i have never seen an exo with an interior x
not that it has never been done
i plan on a pipe exo with interior x, i need to see a pic to visualize it(duh) i'll need one behind front seats and rear seats
any pics out there


no pics that i can think of, ill have pics this summer when i start building it

[DirtyMJ]

i have never seen an exo with an interior x
not that it has never been done
i plan on a pipe exo with interior x, i need to see a pic to visualize it(duh) i'll need one behind front seats and rear seats
any pics out there



Look at any typical internal cage with X's in those places. Now, just extend the X to the outside of the vehicle at the roof line to tie-in with the roof portion of the exo. On the lower parts I would probably say just to tie them into the floor over the uniframe rails. But that's me.

[Weasel]

The steel used in cranes is very different then what you going to build a roll cage out of. It's a high martensite steel that is super strong but also very brittle.

You don't want marensite anywhere near the steel you use for a cage. An no, round does not distribute forces any better. For torsion yes it does, which we are not really dealing with, and for buckling yes a round shape is better but thats in a pure compression loading, cages are hardly ever in pure compression. For point loads sqaure or rect is better. Tube tends to dent with point loads, and how the stress is spread is more a function of joint design.

It will work fine. Only of my old buddies built his entire cage from square on his crusier and it worked awesome. And it got laid over plenty.

For the joints I would just cut and fold over then weld. It's just mild steel right so you shouldn't have to worry about the welds cooling to quickly I don't think.


Build it, use you head, make sure your welds are good and you'll be fine.

[Weasel]

i have never seen an exo with an interior x
not that it has never been done
i plan on a pipe exo with interior x, i need to see a pic to visualize it(duh) i'll need one behind front seats and rear seats
any pics out there

here you go, sick exo...

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n199/Roktgr/Jeep/Toy_Exo.jpg

[88rockxj]

The steel used in cranes is very different then what you going to build a roll cage out of. It's a high martensite steel that is super strong but also very brittle.

You don't want marensite anywhere near the steel you use for a cage. An no, round does not distribute forces any better. For torsion yes it does, which we are not really dealing with, and for buckling yes a round shape is better but thats in a pure compression loading, cages are hardly ever in pure compression. For point loads sqaure or rect is better. Tube tends to dent with point loads, and how the stress is spread is more a function of joint design.

It will work fine. Only of my old buddies built his entire cage from square on his crusier and it worked awesome. And it got laid over plenty.

For the joints I would just cut and fold over then weld. It's just mild steel right so you shouldn't have to worry about the welds cooling to quickly I don't think.


Build it, use you head, make sure your welds are good and you'll be fine.


very interesting, thank you for sharing that i appreciate it. :cheers:

[Matt S.]

here you go, sick exo...

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n199/Roktgr/Jeep/Toy_Exo.jpg

Man, I have not seen Daves old rig in YEARS!! That was right after he finished it. This stuff that guy could build helped make me want to learn how to bend tube... To bad that thing is long gone.

But now knowing what i know, if I would have known anything when I was sitting there watchin him build it, I would have done a million things different.

[buzzbombxj]

I saw a early k5 today with a square tube roll bar, it looked ghetto. maybe if you do better job. It could look good. anybody see that early bronco from uroc that was in hammer down? It had rectanguler fender bars and it looked great

[Weasel]

Man, I have not seen Daves old rig in YEARS!! That was right after he finished it. This stuff that guy could build helped make me want to learn how to bend tube... To bad that thing is long gone.

But now knowing what i know, if I would have known anything when I was sitting there watchin him build it, I would have done a million things different.

Wasn't it Tin_Bender on PBB that built it? Yeah it is definatly one of my favs to look at. I had pics of them rolling it somewhere too. Handle the roll really well.

[barillms]

Oh, the tables have turned i see...

[xjfan1974]

It is your rig just build it the way you want to build it. I am not sure why you brought it up on this board you knew people would say WTF are you thinking.

Like I said it's your rig and you are the one who will be driving it. I won't build a exo out of square but that is just me. I am sure I've done things on my rig that people wouldn't do but oh-well. Quit talking about it and get started lets see the end result.

[lost honda pro]

so you shouldn't have to worry about the welds cooling to quickly I don't think


yea, for some reason i dont see him dropping 140+*C/sec in his garage :D

[alwaysready]

standard pipe and square tube are close to the same in this application.
its your rig build it with square.
i have a bender so id prob bend it using schedule 40 pipe.
DOM is stronger than standard pipe.
but show us your squared exoed XJ when done..