Ass-Hat police officers

[bluebullet6]

So my buddy and I were wheeling this last Saturday in the Farmington Flats area in Utah. We were spotting for one another on a few hill climbs and some off camber spots. We were both in and out of our vehicles off and on, both of us had sway bars disconnected and PSI set at around 15. We were both in our jeeps driving to the next set of obstacles (at about 3mph on a single lane dirt road that can only be accessed by 4x4's) when up pulls two Davis County deputies in a Polaris Ranger 6x6 off road vehicle. They turn their lights on and pull us both off the trail and then ask us why we're driving without seatbelts... Oh I dont know officers, maybe because we're not anywhere near paved roads, or maybe because we're traveling at 3mph in the mud, or maybe because after about 300 yards on a dirt road with a seat belt the seat belt becomes so cinched and tight I just might have suffocated (none of which I said). They then gave us both a ticket for not wearing seatbelts. We went in to fight the ticket where the judge reduced the fine from 45 to 15$, but still, what a load of horse crap. Why does "the man" have to be such an ass face?

[ECKSJAY]

:looser:

OWNED!

LOL INTERNETS!!1

[dmillion]

Yeah, I see the ass-hats here, but it's NOT the police officers!

[RedHeep]

If the road had a designation associated with it, i.e. a county road number or whatever, you were wrong. Maybe they were a little overzealous, but in the end a violation is a violation. At least it only cost you $15.

[wallysheata]

Yeah, I see the ass-hats here, but it's NOT the police officers!

WELL PUT

[RichP]

Maybe, the seat belt law intention was to reduce injuries in collisions, unfortunately the letter of the law and the intent of the law are open to interpretation and while a case could be made for the ticket under the letter of the law the cops were a bit on the stupid side to do it, wanted to show they did something during their 'off road patrol' and further up the line justify the cost of that polaris 'Look, we wrote 400 seat belt tickets'. Had one trooper around here that used to look for simpson harness type 5 point, he'd pull them over and write them a ticket for not wearing the stock seat belt... go figure...

[SS01XJ]

How about a police officer giving someone a warning ticket because he had an "air freshener" hanging from his rear view mirror (obstructing forward vision)?

[KarlVP]

When you are in your vehicle when it's moving you should be wearing your seat belt.

Wheelers most of all should know this.

Don't argue with police officers, argue with the Judge. That's what he's there for.

End of discussion.

[Starscream]

So my buddy and I were wheeling this last Saturday in the Farmington Flats area in Utah. We were spotting for one another on a few hill climbs and some off camber spots. We were both in and out of our vehicles off and on, both of us had sway bars disconnected and PSI set at around 15. We were both in our jeeps driving to the next set of obstacles (at about 3mph on a single lane dirt road that can only be accessed by 4x4's) when up pulls two Davis County deputies in a Polaris Ranger 6x6 off road vehicle. They turn their lights on and pull us both off the trail and then ask us why we're driving without seatbelts... Oh I dont know officers, maybe because we're not anywhere near paved roads, or maybe because we're traveling at 3mph in the mud, or maybe because after about 300 yards on a dirt road with a seat belt the seat belt becomes so cinched and tight I just might have suffocated (none of which I said). They then gave us both a ticket for not wearing seatbelts. We went in to fight the ticket where the judge reduced the fine from 45 to 15$, but still, what a load of horse crap. Why does "the man" have to be such an ass face?
Are you serious? Wheeling without a seatbelt is as stupid as it gets. The cops were right. Take this as a lesson and wear it from now on. What if you had rolled? Your interior would be playing ping pong with you.

[FELIX]

Are you serious? Wheeling without a seatbelt is as stupid as it gets. The cops were right. Take this as a lesson and wear it from now on. What if you had rolled? Your interior would be playing ping pong with you.

I agree. Doesn't matter if it's flat ground, you should wear them. it takes all but what 10 seconds to click together :rolleyes: Ticket wise maybe a warning would have been good, but then again each situation is different :cool:

ROb $.02

[riverfever]

http://i1.tinypic.com/1zwdk05.jpg


:)

[johnnyc]

it takes all but what 10 seconds to click together :rolleyes:

That long, huh? J/K :kissyou:

I rolled my XJ three weeks ago. Thank goodness, I did have my seatbelt on. And I was going about 2 mph. As a result, I suffered no injuries, although the Jeep was totalled.

[bluebullet6]

so dmillion/wallysheata, we're the ass-hats then? I'm not sure i see where you're coming from. As I said, we didnt say anything to the police officers, but I guess we're ass-hats because we had just jumped back in our jeeps after surveying the last hill climbed and had driven maybe 50 yards when the cops rounded the corner. Kinda like a police officer nailing you after backing out of your stall in a parking lot... a warning would certainly suffice and the infraction is anything but malicious or intentional. I might add that their polaris ranger didn't even have safety belts, and they weren't wearing helmets. hmm. guess its because they weren't "most wheelers" and in the know with regards to their own safety.

[Starscream]

so dmillion/wallysheata, we're the ass-hats then? I'm not sure i see where you're coming from. As I said, we didnt say anything to the police officers, but I guess we're ass-hats because we had just jumped back in our jeeps after surveying the last hill climbed and had driven maybe 50 yards when the cops rounded the corner. Kinda like a police officer nailing you after backing out of your stall in a parking lot... a warning would certainly suffice and the infraction is anything but malicious or intentional. I might add that their polaris ranger didn't even have safety belts, and they weren't wearing helmets. hmm. guess its because they weren't "most wheelers" and in the know with regards to their own safety.
It doesn't matter if you drove 50 yards or 50 miles, you were in the wrong. I never understood why people start to drive THEN put on the seatbelt. I do it before I even turn the ignition. It's not hard. As for the rangers, yeah, that is dumb, but sooner or later they'll get caught, too.

[dmillion]

so dmillion/wallysheata, we're the ass-hats then?
Well, you asked, so I'll spell it out for you. Yes, YOU are the ass-hats!

Why? Because you were in the wrong, but even still you come on here with all this attitude and name-calling about the "ass-hat police officers." If you weren't acting like a cry-baby you would suck it up, admit that you were in the wrong, and accept that they were just doing their job.

I know that's a little harsh, but don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

[streetpirate]

well i think its bs that they did that.
people wonder why i dont like the 'po,
its because they have the supreme power to be assholes,
and take joy in doing it. cops are cops for two reasons.

one: they want to do good for their community

two: they like the power and control.

i have met far more of the latter.









but ive met a few decent ones too. Officer Clagget of the Clackamas county sherrifs, he's a good man.

[dmillion]

Yeah, there are some cops who like the power and control. And it would have been real nice of the cops in this case to let the guys off with just a warning. But it doesn't make them "ass-hats" or "ass faces" just because they decided to issue the ticket.

I know that the original poster CLAIMS that he didn't say this or that, but he obviously has a very big chip on his shoulder, and he obviously has a very negative attitude about police officers. My guess is that the attitude came through in answering the cops questions. You don't think cops can pick up on that? My guess is that if he had been nothing but respectful and polite he probably would have gotten off with just a warning. But instead he was sitting there with "ass-hat" going over and over through his head the whole time, and THAT'S the reason he got a ticket.

[Sniggs]

so dmillion/wallysheata, we're the ass-hats then? I'm not sure i see where you're coming from. As I said, we didnt say anything to the police officers, but I guess we're ass-hats because we had just jumped back in our jeeps after surveying the last hill climbed and had driven maybe 50 yards when the cops rounded the corner. Kinda like a police officer nailing you after backing out of your stall in a parking lot... a warning would certainly suffice and the infraction is anything but malicious or intentional. I might add that their polaris ranger didn't even have safety belts, and they weren't wearing helmets. hmm. guess its because they weren't "most wheelers" and in the know with regards to their own safety.
http://i1.tinypic.com/1zwn1o9.jpg

[bluebullet6]

I've never claimed to not be in the wrong, sure we didn't have our seatbelts on, but it wasn't something we both thought Hmm, I know, lets stick to the man by endangering ourselves.

Here is the Utah Traffic Law we 'violated'

http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_04225.htm

You'll note that in the first line it says "The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall: wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety belt"

Merriam Webster defines highway as: a public way; especially : a main direct road.

We were on public land... a single vehicle width trail that only a modified 4x4 could travel safely without suffering damage. This is far from a main direct road. And why the double standard as far as safety is concerned? There is no helmet law in utah, and there were a number of atv's and motorcycles passed on our way up that were carrying passengers and riding without helmets... their plight would be much worse if an accident occured than mine would have been had i rearended my buddy at 3 mph.

Returning to Utah's current seatbelt law, you'll note that drivers ticketed for no seat belts can only be ticketed if they were stopped for another traffic violation or suspicion thereof. When stopped, the officers made it clear that was the only reason they had stopped us, both of us have current registration, mud flaps and such covering the tires etc etc., "For a person 19 years of age or older who violates Subsection (1)(a) or (2), enforcement by a state or local law enforcement officer shall be only as a secondary action when the person has been detained for a suspected violation of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, other than Subsection (1)(a) or (2), or for another offense."

We were basically victims of that nights ticket quota, and it pisses me off. We both drove out of there pissed off as well as those riding with us. If roles had been swapped and I were the policeman, I would have seen that the situation was unique, and these boys probably just forgot their seat belts as they were jumping in and out of their jeeps, or worse still, didn't realize a seat belt law applies in the back country.

All 4x4 safety issues aside (thanks for the brow beating), would anyone guess that a highway click it or ticket campaign would apply to a 4x4 trail 10 miles from the nearest paved road?

As far was what was said to the policemen... we inquired as to why they stopped us, to which they said because we had driven past them without seatbelts, to which we asked if the law applied on a dirt road, and pointed down the trail to where we were just standing outside our jeeps looking down the hill we had just climbed. You bet I have a big chip on my shoulder, and its because we were nothing but pleasant and neighborly to these two officers, and they still came back with little or no sympathy, then had the audacity to say "enjoy the rest of your night". It was as we were driving away that my distaste for these two officers started to brew, I had no problem before as I appreciate knowing when I'm in the wrong, and will do my best to correct my actions and comply with the law.

[CRASH]

I've never thought of Utah as being a nanny-state. Guess things have changed out there.......

[CanMan]

$45 bucks if the judge didn't reduce it for a seat belt ticket? That is fawkin cheap. In WA, its $101. Why are you bitching over a $15 dollar ticket? I see that the officers may have not been very understanding givin the circumstances, but such a cheap ticket, why rant? :conceited

[GSequoia]

Funny how this guy argues how the trail isn't a public road but I bet if he rolled over and tried to use insurance he'd be yelling PUBLIC ROAD at the top of his lungs :D

Also...

Does anybody else find it odd that this happened on Saturday and he already got a court date, judgement, and fine reduction?

Seems awfly quick to me...

[dmillion]

Let me make sure I've got this straight. You broke the law and got a ticket for it, but YOU'RE the "victim." Yeah, right.

Sorry, buddy, but you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper. The cops weren't the ass-hats and you weren't the victim.

[WB9YZU]

OMG, another newbie with a bone to pick with "The Man" :D

Seriously though, a "highway" can mean almost any darn cow path that is designated as a "road". Learn to equate the word "highway" and "road" and stop trying to reason yourself out of this.

The Officer did you a favor. You will be atleast twice as likely to click on that belt before moving the truck, and someday, that will save your bacon :D

Hey, where is YELLAHEEP when you need him? How about it Troy? Somebody's calling your buddies in blue "Azzhats". Surely you have some input here? :) :) :)

[GSequoia]

Yellaheep you mean Ron ;)

Incidently I have a perfect cure for forgetting the seat belt.

Get a newer vehcile.

The fawking buckle yoru seatbelt chime is so annoying I tend to put my belt on before starting so I don't hear it... The habbit from doing that in the Mini and Neon carries over to the Jeeps (both of which have no chime - ripped 'em out!)

[WB9YZU]

Yellaheep you mean Ron ;)


Isn't that what I said? ;)
(Yah, I went back and edited it)

I have to drive a Chevy Colorado for work, it reminds me about almost every ID10T error I ever make.
Seatbelt? Chime and a light for that one.
Left your blinker on? Yup, a chime for that too.
Left your lights on using the manual setting (yah it has Automatic headlights) ? Yup, chime.
Key's in the ignition? Chime.
Farted? Well, no chime, but it usually smells bad enough without some chime telling you to roll down the window ;)

[bluebullet6]

$45 bucks if the judge didn't reduce it for a seat belt ticket? That is fawkin cheap. In WA, its $101. Why are you bitching over a $15 dollar ticket? I see that the officers may have not been very understanding givin the circumstances, but such a cheap ticket, why rant? :conceited


Yea i don't know why I get fired up... i guess it was just the principle for me, and the fact that it put a big damper on the rest of the night. I was glad to only pay $15 in the end. I guess my first taste of the judical system was just a bad one.

[bluebullet6]

OMG, another newbie with a bone to pick with "The Man" :D

Seriously though, a "highway" can mean almost any darn cow path that is designated as a "road". Learn to equate the word "highway" and "road" and stop trying to reason yourself out of this.

The Officer did you a favor. You will be atleast twice as likely to click on that belt before moving the truck, and someday, that will save your bacon :D

Hey, where is YELLAHEEP when you need him? How about it Troy? Somebody's calling your buddies in blue "Azzhats". Surely you have some input here? :) :) :)


yea i know, next weekend when we're up there you can bet we'll have our belts on no matter what.

[bluebullet6]

Yellaheep you mean Ron ;)

Incidently I have a perfect cure for forgetting the seat belt.

Get a newer vehcile.

The fawking buckle yoru seatbelt chime is so annoying I tend to put my belt on before starting so I don't hear it... The habbit from doing that in the Mini and Neon carries over to the Jeeps (both of which have no chime - ripped 'em out!)


what year mini you got? I have an 05 cooper s. no mods except rims.

[bluebullet6]

Funny how this guy argues how the trail isn't a public road but I bet if he rolled over and tried to use insurance he'd be yelling PUBLIC ROAD at the top of his lungs :D

Also...

Does anybody else find it odd that this happened on Saturday and he already got a court date, judgement, and fine reduction?

Seems awfly quick to me...

Ticket happened saturday, I'm leaving for powell for 2 weeks thursday morning... so I either fight it yesterday morning or I bend over and pay it. What purpose would it serve me or anyone else here to come on a fabricate a story?

[GSequoia]

what year mini you got? I have an 05 cooper s. no mods except rims.

It's a 2005 Cooper S Convertable, stock. It's actually my girlfriend's.

http://www.casualsequoia.com/photos/d/12829-2/Holly_s+Mini+2.jpg

http://www.casualsequoia.com/photos/d/12818-2/Half-a-Mini.jpg

What purpose would it serve me or anyone else here to come on a fabricate a story?

You'd be surprised, people do...a lot...I've been on boards long enough to take just about any story that I wasn't there for very skeptically...

[Silverstreak01]

glad you admitted it was your GFs.... haha

[Rev Den]

I love Mini's....esp. in bumper to bumper traffic as I come up behind them in the Excursion.

Rev

[Sniggs]

Hey, bluebullet! My hat is off to you for taking so much shit from all of us!
:yelclap:

We really do care for everyone's safety... Some are just more "grumpy" about it.

Me? I'm just a typical grouchy old Fart! :passgas:

Keep your seatbelt on! :) :yelclap:

[jml1911a1]

I'm a little confused here...

Why is everyone so hard on a guy who was traveling 3mph on a dirt road, far from other vehicles, doing nothing that could endanger the safety or violate the rights of others? What purpose does it serve for him to pay a fine? How does society benefit, or what negative outcome is avoided (for society at large) by fining someone for not wearing a seat belt in that instance? Who is the victim of this horrendous crime of unrestrainted driving while traveling at a walking pace?

Even if you argue that "seat belts save lives", how does that apply in this circumstance?

Is "it's the law; disobey at your peril!" your mantra? Fine: Do you stop COMPLETELY at every sign? Never, EVER cross a double yellow line? ALWAYS travel at the posted speed limit? I don't: Who cares? Are we such a nitpicking society that a little leeway is out of the question? Is the law ALWAYS right? (Hint: HELL NO.)

Geez, guys, give the guy a break.

Ass-hat cops? Heck, yes. It's become almost a redundant phrase, these days. What in the world were they doing out there, anyway? Why do they feel the need to babysit everyone? What kind of country do we live in? You're traveling along in the backcountry, walking speed, and some armed government representative trots out and hands you a bill for failing to strap yourself to your barely moving vehicle. In my book, that's NOT a sign of a FREE country.

All right. I'm done. Flame away...

[Gil BullyKatz]

You need more practice at cop detection and subtle setbelt fastening...

if not...

Darwin baby...

Darwin

[0313]

I've never claimed to not be in the wrong, sure we didn't have our seatbelts on, but it wasn't something we both thought Hmm, I know, lets stick to the man by endangering ourselves.

Here is the Utah Traffic Law we 'violated'

http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_04225.htm (http://www.le.state.ut.us/%7Ecode/TITLE41/htm/41_04225.htm)

You'll note that in the first line it says "The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall: wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety belt"

Merriam Webster defines highway as: a public way; especially : a main direct road.

We were on public land... a single vehicle width trail that only a modified 4x4 could travel safely without suffering damage. This is far from a main direct road. And why the double standard as far as safety is concerned? There is no helmet law in utah, and there were a number of atv's and motorcycles passed on our way up that were carrying passengers and riding without helmets... their plight would be much worse if an accident occured than mine would have been had i rearended my buddy at 3 mph.

Awww yes, Utah Traffic Law, as long as we are looking at one part of the Utah Traffic Law, why not look at the entire code. Merriam Webster doesnt make the laws or the deffinitions of Traffic Code.

As per Utah Traffic Code...http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_04003.htm (http://www.le.state.ut.us/%7Ecode/TITLE41/htm/41_04003.htm)

Here is the Def. of Highway According to Traffic Law.

(20) "Highway" means the entire width between property lines of every way or place of any nature when any part of it is open to the use of the public as a matter of right for vehicular travel.

Sounds like you were on a Highway to me.

As far as you not wearing it because you were getting in and out alot....ummm....everyone on trail rides get in and out alot. Seems everyone I see manages to put it back on.

Too bad.

[DrMoab]

Yea i don't know why I get fired up... i guess it was just the principle for me, and the fact that it put a big damper on the rest of the night. I was glad to only pay $15 in the end. I guess my first taste of the judical system was just a bad one.
There is another reason you got bothered up there. Farmington Flats area is known for stupid kids doing stupid things and getting hurt. The cops are nasty up there all the time.

Next time you go up to that area make sure you clean the boogers out of your nose first. They will check...trust me.

On another note. Seatbelt laws are stupid and should go away. If I want to die in my car it should me my choice. Off road, on road or anywhere.

[azdesertrhino]

Pay the $15 bucks, be smart enough to put your seatbelt on and quit whining!hasta :rattle: :rattle: :rattle:

[5-90]

I'm a little confused here...

Why is everyone so hard on a guy who was traveling 3mph on a dirt road, far from other vehicles, doing nothing that could endanger the safety or violate the rights of others? What purpose does it serve for him to pay a fine? How does society benefit, or what negative outcome is avoided (for society at large) by fining someone for not wearing a seat belt in that instance? Who is the victim of this horrendous crime of unrestrainted driving while traveling at a walking pace?

Even if you argue that "seat belts save lives", how does that apply in this circumstance?

Is "it's the law; disobey at your peril!" your mantra? Fine: Do you stop COMPLETELY at every sign? Never, EVER cross a double yellow line? ALWAYS travel at the posted speed limit? I don't: Who cares? Are we such a nitpicking society that a little leeway is out of the question? Is the law ALWAYS right? (Hint: HELL NO.)

Geez, guys, give the guy a break.

Ass-hat cops? Heck, yes. It's become almost a redundant phrase, these days. What in the world were they doing out there, anyway? Why do they feel the need to babysit everyone? What kind of country do we live in? You're traveling along in the backcountry, walking speed, and some armed government representative trots out and hands you a bill for failing to strap yourself to your barely moving vehicle. In my book, that's NOT a sign of a FREE country.

All right. I'm done. Flame away...


Actually, no flaming here. My question is, and has always been, why are laws needed to protect me from me? If I decide to endanger myself, that's my look-out - just so long as I don't endanger anyone else in so doing.

Granted, I always wear a seatbelt - but I learned to drive in Indiana, in a truck (which was registered as a truck, and was therefore exempt from the seatbelt law) and I just thought it was a good idea. For some reason, I always have an easier time doing something that seems a good idea on its own merits than when I'm told to for no apparent reason, and the "Click it or ticket" campaign just seems like revenue enhancement to me. Perhaps congresscritters at all levels are paying themselves too much, since they keep finding new ways to raise money for the coffers...

5-90

[Phager]

DrMoab, My sentiments exactly! Seatbelt laws, for adults, are incredibly stupid. While I'm a firm believer in seatbelt usage, I certainly don't think it's the governments job to babysit me. I will, however, say that there certainly should be a law requiring children to be belted in.

All that said, we are stuck with seatbelt laws until the majority of voters decide enough is enough. I don't think the police were being "asshats" as they have a job to do and that job is to enforce the enacted laws. When I speed, I do so with the full knowledge that I'm breaking the law and if I'm caught, I'll be facing fines and increased insurance rates. Is the cop an "asshat" for pulling me over? No. I took a calculated risk and now must pay the price. I personally think it's a little much to pitch a fit over a $15 (or $45) ticket.

Oh well, that's just my opinion.

Pat

[0313]

Yeah but do you really want to die in your car?

Not to mention do ya really think the cops wanna scrape your dead body off the road? Its backs up traffic and wastes even more money having to wash the blood and feces off the shovels. More cops have to come and divert traffic and clean up the accidents that happen from the slack jaws and rubber neckers when they rear end someone.

Not to mention laundering the white sheets that get blood soaked so the little kids dont see John and Jane Smucatelli mangled on the side of the road.

It not only saves like but it saves money. Our taxes go higher every time someone dies.


:D




On a side note were the cops wearing helmets? I bet the were doing doughnuts on the dirt roads when you left too.

[5-90]

Yeah but do you really want to die in your car?

Not to mention do ya really think the cops wanna scrape your dead body off the road? Its backs up traffic and wastes even more money having to wash the blood and feces off the shovels. More cops have to come and divert traffic and clean up the accidents that happen from the slack jaws and rubber neckers when they rear end someone.

Not to mention laundering the white sheets that get blood soaked so the little kids dont see John and Jane Smucatelli mangled on the side of the road.

It not only saves like but it saves money. Our taxes go higher every time someone dies.


:D




On a side note were the cops wearing helmets? I bet the were doing doughnuts on the dirt roads when you left too.


I'm not wild about dying in my vehicle (and I've been dead a couple times - so I should have a pretty good idea about this...) but I don't think it's the state's job to protect me from me - just from other people. I drive better than, probably, 90% of the rest of this state, and it seems to me that the standards in training and certification need updating more than seatbelt laws need enforcing.

I buckle my belt all the time, but I don't need to be told to, and I don't LIKE being told to. "That government governs best which governs least" - what wise man said that?

5-90

[0313]

I'm not wild about dying in my vehicle (and I've been dead a couple times - so I should have a pretty good idea about this...) but I don't think it's the state's job to protect me from me - just from other people. I drive better than, probably, 90% of the rest of this state, and it seems to me that the standards in training and certification need updating more than seatbelt laws need enforcing.

I buckle my belt all the time, but I don't need to be told to, and I don't LIKE being told to. "That government governs best which governs least" - what wise man said that?

5-90
Thomas Jefferson....I actually knew that. It was him, wasnt it?

[5-90]

Thomas Jefferson....I actually knew that. It was him, wasnt it?

One more for you - "There hasn't been this much brainpower in one room since Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

5-90

[0313]

One more for you - "There hasn't been this much brainpower in one room since Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

5-90

No idea.

[5-90]

No idea.

JFK, as I recall...

5-90

[WB9YZU]

I'm not wild about dying in my vehicle (and I've been dead a couple times - so I should have a pretty good idea about this...) but I don't think it's the state's job to protect me from me - just from other people. I drive better than, probably, 90% of the rest of this state, and it seems to me that the standards in training and certification need updating more than seatbelt laws need enforcing.

I buckle my belt all the time, but I don't need to be told to, and I don't LIKE being told to. "That government governs best which governs least" - what wise man said that?

5-90

Just incase you think it's this dead guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson


One of the most famous quotations attributed to Thomas Jefferson, "That government is best which governs least", was not from Jefferson at all.[12] (http://www.monticello.org/library/reference/quotes.html#confirm) The quotation actually came from Henry David Thoreau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau) in On the Duty of Civil Disobedience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_%28Thoreau%29).[13] (http://www.panarchy.org/thoreau/disobedience.1848.html) Thoreau was paraphrasing the motto of The United States Magazine and Democratic Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_United_States_Magazine_and_Democratic_Review), “The best government is that which governs least.”[14] (http://www.bartleby.com/73/753.html)

Henry David Thoreau
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe— "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

[5-90]

Just incase you think it's this dead guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

Thank you for the link. My memory isn't what it once was - too many hits to the head, I think...

5-90

[0313]

JFK, as I recall...

5-90


I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent and of human knowledge that has ever been gathered together at the White House – with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. – John Kennedy, 1962 dinner honoring Nobel Prize winners.

[5-90]

Thank you as well. As I said, my memory isn't what it once was.

Besides, I've been reserving "hat space" for Jeep things anyhow, since I'm mostly fed up with various politicians, and differentiating tends to take up memory space as well (I need a memory implant, or maybe download my mind, defrag it, and up it agiain...)

5-90

[XJSpencer]

It not only saves lives but it saves money. Our taxes go higher every time someone dies.



That is why we have seatbelt laws! Good goin' Cody.

You're Ex-taskmasters should check this out!(jerks)

If it weren't for seatbelts, my parents would probably only have 5 of 8 kids left.(maybe)

[85Chief]

I've been an Intern at the City and the Sheriff's department where I live at for the last year. I can see your frustration, but don't blame your ticket, seat belt or speeding, etc on the Officer/Deputy/Trooper. They are sworn to protect their community and enforces the laws at all levels.

Many of you get quite a few breaks and may not realize it. How many times do you go 55mph on a road that is marked 55mph. Probably not too many of you do (nor do I for that matter). Around here, an Officer ususally doesn't pull you over unless you are going 12+ mph above the limit. At the same time, if an Officer wants to write you a speeding ticket for a person doing 60 in a 55, they can and will do so. Whether you call this a "power trip" or just plain enforcing the law...you decide.
Same goes with the Interstate. In IL it is marked as 65mph but a majority of the people cruise around 80. When these people get caught they always say that they are "going with the flow and Why did you pick me out of the group to pull over?" Simple answer is that if it were possible, I'm sure they would be pulling over entire groups. One person at a time is all they can handle. (exception of speed traps)

My point is that if you don't like the seat belt law, or any other law, you better get used troopers (or whoever else feels it is necessary) issuing a ticket for the law that you continue to break. They are not the ones that make the laws, but are the ones that make a living enforcing the laws that they are sworn to upkeep.

Just my thought on it.

[stewie]

...but I don't think it's the state's job to protect me from me - just from other people. I drive better than, probably, 90% of the rest of this state, and it seems to me that the standards in training and certification need updating more than seatbelt laws need enforcing.

I buckle my belt all the time, but I don't need to be told to, and I don't LIKE being told to...
5-90

your right, its not so much the states job to protect you from you, but from others. and you may very well be in the top 10% of drivers in CommieFornia. thats great, but it still leaves you with a good area for error, and more importantly a HUGE area for error of others. i dont worry about my or your driving, its just everyone else that i worry about hitting me!

im not a cop yet, but i still have helped scrape a dead guy off the interstate as a good sam until the uniformed folks arrived in fast cars, big trucks, a box van and a helo. just because the vics car rolled after being cut off, and the "hurt realy bad" guy and the dead en rout guy were ejected for not wearing belts, the state had to send out 4 utah highway patrol troopers, 3 fire rescue trucks, 3 ambulances (one spectator in shock from seeing that much blood and the human figure contorted so) and one life flight helo. sure, insurance pays for some, but not all of the states expences responding to people who put "their own lives in danger." not to mention responding to an incident is inherntly dangerous as it is- people like to cut off vehicles with flashing red and blue lights. if my wife gets hurt running code as an EMT to anyones accident scene because they didnt wear a seatbelt, i will seriously find and hurt that person.

as a former (military) and hopefully future (civilian) cop, people need to wake up and realize that its not just their own lives that they put in danger

rant off.

[DrMoab]

It not only saves like but it saves money. Our taxes go higher every time someone dies.
Since its always hard to tell if you are being serious or not...I am going to take a gamble and say you are.

If you feel this way do you also feel we should tax McDonalds for making us fat?

Sorry but laws protecting me from myself are not what this country is supposed to be about. Helmet laws, Seatbelt laws, and fast food laws(trust me they are comming) are just stupid. BTW I wear my seatbelt because I don't want to die in my car. It should be my choice though. If you want the government to tell you how to live your life move to China...or at least California.

[HilltopXJ]

Since its always hard to tell if you are being serious or not...I am going to take a gamble and say you are.

If you feel this way do you also feel we should tax McDonalds for making us fat?

Sorry but laws protecting me from myself are not what this country is supposed to be about. Helmet laws, Seatbelt laws, and fast food laws(trust me they are comming) are just stupid. BTW I wear my seatbelt because I don't want to die in my car. It should be my choice though. If you want the government to tell you how to live your life move to China...or at least California.


X2

[5-90]

your right, its not so much the states job to protect you from you, but from others. and you may very well be in the top 10% of drivers in CommieFornia. thats great, but it still leaves you with a good area for error, and more importantly a HUGE area for error of others. i dont worry about my or your driving, its just everyone else that i worry about hitting me!

im not a cop yet, but i still have helped scrape a dead guy off the interstate as a good sam until the uniformed folks arrived in fast cars, big trucks, a box van and a helo. just because the vics car rolled after being cut off, and the "hurt realy bad" guy and the dead en rout guy were ejected for not wearing belts, the state had to send out 4 utah highway patrol troopers, 3 fire rescue trucks, 3 ambulances (one spectator in shock from seeing that much blood and the human figure contorted so) and one life flight helo. sure, insurance pays for some, but not all of the states expences responding to people who put "their own lives in danger." not to mention responding to an incident is inherntly dangerous as it is- people like to cut off vehicles with flashing red and blue lights. if my wife gets hurt running code as an EMT to anyones accident scene because they didnt wear a seatbelt, i will seriously find and hurt that person.

as a former (military) and hopefully future (civilian) cop, people need to wake up and realize that its not just their own lives that they put in danger

rant off.

True. Entirely true. However, while there is a margin for error in my driving (I freely accept that,) I find it tolerably small, since I've also made an effort to take as much advanced driver training as possible (most of it in the Air Force,) and - out here, anyhow - I have noted that most drivers honestly shouldn't be. More annoying that they're doing stupid stuff, and have the nerve to get annoyed with me when THEY screw up! (Oh, the stories I could tell...)

I watch where I'm going, I try very hard not to be distracted while I'm driving (don't get me started on being on the 'phone WHILE YOU'RE DRIVING!) I carefully rig and secure all loads I carry (I've lost one, and I was taking measures to control damage once I noticed it was loose - and took action STRAIGHT AWAY to secure it again and make sure there wasn't anything left on the road!) and I was taught in Driver's Ed that, as a driver, I am responsible for all people within my vehicle as passengers, any load I'm carrying and how it may affect others, and responsible for my actions as they intersect with other people.

Driver's Ed out here, lately, is not even farcical enough to be a joke. Add to the fact that the California Driver's Test is written wrong (the "right" answers aren't even close!) and having incompetent instructors and incompetent examiners is NOT a recipe for competent drivers!

With me so far? I take seriously my responsibilities as a driver, and that seems to set me so far apart from other drivers out here that it just isn't funny.

I'm not a cop either - but I've seen my share of roads "incidents" (I have also found that most of them are not truly "accidents" in the proper definition) and helped clean up a few, and been First Responder to more than a few dozen. I've seen people get cleaned off the roadway with pressure washers, and sopped up with sponges. THIS is why I have so much trouble with incompetent drivers - I know what my "margin of error" is - while figuring out what the "margin of error" is for the typical California driver is something that I find to be a hole with no bottom.

Add in that the "typical" California driver drives like he's the only person on the whole damn road, and you can begin to understand my animus. Hell, I think most of them come from countries where a Schwinn is equivalent to a Mercedes, and cars are a rarity - AND that license examinations here are given in quite a few languages other than English (all the road signs are in English, all the cops speak English, and all the damn near everything else is in English. I'm not about to speak other languages - even if I COULD still remember them - here in my home country because someone else can't be arsed to learn mine...) and you've got accidents LOOKING for a place to happen!

So, what do you suggest I do, otherwise? I've got to stay out here for at least a couple more years, I'm in the middle of a few degrees right now...

5-90

[0313]

Since its always hard to tell if you are being serious or not...I am going to take a gamble and say you are.

If you feel this way do you also feel we should tax McDonalds for making us fat?

Sorry but laws protecting me from myself are not what this country is supposed to be about. Helmet laws, Seatbelt laws, and fast food laws(trust me they are comming) are just stupid. BTW I wear my seatbelt because I don't want to die in my car. It should be my choice though. If you want the government to tell you how to live your life move to China...or at least California.

Do it for the kids?

[DrMoab]

Do it for the kids?
Don't get me wrong. I think anyone who doesn't wear their seat belts are stupid.

I just don't think its something that should be a law. I do believe in car seat laws and helmet laws for kids. Just because they don't know any better.

[5-90]

Don't get me wrong. I think anyone who doesn't wear their seat belts are stupid.

I just don't think its something that should be a law. I do believe in car seat laws and helmet laws for kids. Just because they don't know any better.

And you strike the nail squarely upon the head. I don't think seatbelt laws are in place so much for "public safety" as for "government funding." Just like most other infractions.

I don't see the moral issue at hand if I should happen to not wear my seat belt (my detached garage is in an alley behind my house. To return my vehicle to service from there requires driving it AROUND THE DAMN BLOCK to get back in front of my house - why do I need a seatbelt for that short trip? I can shoot farther than that!) but, since cops are around here all the damn time (I live between a couple delis at one end of the street, and a fire station at the other,) I wear the belt just so I don't get bothered. Apparently, California has gotten silly enough that I can be pulled over simply for NOT WEARING MY SEAT BELT, even though I'm doing 15 in a 25, and signalling all my turns and coming to compleat stops.

Am I missing something here?

5-90

[Brad M.]

Interesting thread. I'm married to a paramedic and she has two brothers that are cops so all you haters out there will love this...

"Ass-hat cops? Heck, yes. It's become almost a redundant phrase, these days. What in the world were they doing out there, anyway? Why do they feel the need to babysit everyone? What kind of country do we live in?"

I can't believe you're asking these questions. What kind of a country do we live in? You obviously don't pay attention to all the crime/rape/murder and stupid acts that create job security for law enforcement around America today. Cops exist because people break laws. It's as simple as that. There has to be some level of civility. As to what they were doing out there, see quote below. The good Dr. is absolutely right, they are in that area for a reason. And obviously you've never listened to a cop tell how wonderful it is to make a phone call and wait with glee for some dumbass kid's parents to come to the hospital and tell them that their son is now a permanent vegetable due to some teenage bravado mixed with alcohol. They DO scrape a lot of people off the road and recreational areas that didn't need to die and it's not pleasant. And PASSXJ nailed it when he said it costs YOU the taxpayer money for them to have to do that. Not to mention that they are under oath to enforce the laws. If they see a violation they are required to take action. It's their job. I will give you this, not all of them do it with the right attitude and I know a small few who SHOULD NOT be wearing a badge or carrying a gun. But as far as law enforcement here in northern utah (I can't speak for your area) my experience, and I have my fair share, is that GENERALLY SPEAKING, they are just trying to do their job, support their families, and keep the public safe. If you get a ticket and don't like it, don't take it out on the cop. THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAW. Argue with the judge and take the issue up with your local lawmakers...

"Farmington Flats area is known for stupid kids doing stupid things and getting hurt. The cops are nasty up there all the time."

As for bluebullet6, be more aware of the laws in the areas you want to wheel in or you'll end up like yours truly and have to pay a $250 ticket for going offroad in a watershed/protected area (who knew you couldn't go offroad up at Guardsman's Pass?) You know you're in trouble when a SL county sheriff's helicopter puts a spotlight on your XJ! Ha ha, experience is the best teacher but sometimes it's a bitch. You paid $15 bucks for a ticket... big deal. Swallow your pride and let it go... bring it on cop haters :)

On a sidenote, I DO agree that if they're going to be out there in an OHV patrolling they should set the example and wear helmets.

[0313]

Blah Blah Blah Blah.....

A new Utah guy? Glad to have ya. :D

[Brad M.]

Sorry, screwed up on the quote tags... Doh!:confused1

[DrMoab]

Interesting thread. I'm married to a paramedic and she has two brothers that are cops so all you haters out there will love this...

"Ass-hat cops? Heck, yes. It's become almost a redundant phrase, these days. What in the world were they doing out there, anyway? Why do they feel the need to babysit everyone? What kind of country do we live in?"

I can't believe you're asking these questions. What kind of a country do we live in? You obviously don't pay attention to all the crime/rape/murder and stupid acts that create job security for law enforcement around America today. Cops exist because people break laws. It's as simple as that. There has to be some level of civility. As to what they were doing out there, see quote below. The good Dr. is absolutely right, they are in that area for a reason. And obviously you've never listened to a cop tell how wonderful it is to make a phone call and wait with glee for some dumbass kid's parents to come to the hospital and tell them that their son is now a permanent vegetable due to some teenage bravado mixed with alcohol. They DO scrape a lot of people off the road and recreational areas that didn't need to die and it's not pleasant. And PASSXJ nailed it when he said it costs YOU the taxpayer money for them to have to do that. Not to mention that they are under oath to enforce the laws. If they see a violation they are required to take action. It's their job. I will give you this, not all of them do it with the right attitude and I know a small few who SHOULD NOT be wearing a badge or carrying a gun. But as far as law enforcement here in northern utah (I can't speak for your area) my experience, and I have my fair share, is that GENERALLY SPEAKING, they are just trying to do their job, support their families, and keep the public safe. If you get a ticket and don't like it, don't take it out on the cop. THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAW. Argue with the judge and take the issue up with your local lawmakers...

"Farmington Flats area is known for stupid kids doing stupid things and getting hurt. The cops are nasty up there all the time."

As for bluebullet6, be more aware of the laws in the areas you want to wheel in or you'll end up like yours truly and have to pay a $250 ticket for going offroad in a watershed/protected area (who knew you couldn't go offroad up at Guardsman's Pass?) You know you're in trouble when a SL county sheriff's helicopter puts a spotlight on your XJ! Ha ha, experience is the best teacher but sometimes it's a bitch. You paid $15 bucks for a ticket... big deal. Swallow your pride and let it go... bring it on cop haters :)

On a sidenote, I DO agree that if they're going to be out there in an OHV patrolling they should set the example and wear helmets.
Coming to the BBQ on Sat? :D

[5-90]

Interesting thread. I'm married to a paramedic and she has two brothers that are cops so all you haters out there will love this...

I can't believe you're asking these questions. What kind of a country do we live in? You obviously don't pay attention to all the crime/rape/murder and stupid acts that create job security for law enforcement around America today. Cops exist because people break laws. It's as simple as that. There has to be some level of civility. As to what they were doing out there, see quote below. The good Dr. is absolutely right, they are in that area for a reason. And obviously you've never listened to a cop tell how wonderful it is to make a phone call and wait with glee for some dumbass kid's parents to come to the hospital and tell them that their son is now a permanent vegetable due to some teenage bravado mixed with alcohol. They DO scrape a lot of people off the road and recreational areas that didn't need to die and it's not pleasant. And PASSXJ nailed it when he said it costs YOU the taxpayer money for them to have to do that. Not to mention that they are under oath to enforce the laws. If they see a violation they are required to take action. It's their job. I will give you this, not all of them do it with the right attitude and I know a small few who SHOULD NOT be wearing a badge or carrying a gun. But as far as law enforcement here in northern utah (I can't speak for your area) my experience, and I have my fair share, is that GENERALLY SPEAKING, they are just trying to do their job, support their families, and keep the public safe. If you get a ticket and don't like it, don't take it out on the cop. THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAW. Argue with the judge and take the issue up with your local lawmakers...

On a sidenote, I DO agree that if they're going to be out there in an OHV patrolling they should set the example and wear helmets.

I try not to hate cops for doing their jobs - although I do take issue with the lawmakers, who make their jobs more difficult, and make it difficult for us to follow the laws.

What am I talking about? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Have you been to a law library? Gawd - if "ignorance is no excuse," I guess we're all required to spend one month a year just catching up! Considering there are something like TWO DOZEN areas of legal specialisation (I can see medical specialisation, but legal? This is a CREATED system, which should be kept simple!) how is the common citizen supposed to keep up with it all? Hell man - my wife works in corporate legal, and has damn near NO idea what's going on in other areas - she has enough to do keeping up with corporate law!

Take it up with my lawmakers? I often do. Granted, I've not been able to organise my thoughs sufficiently to take on the "whole system" (and I've got my thoughts on THAT!) but I do go after them on various aspects of the thing, and I do (sometimes...) get answers which are both on topic and wholly useless. The air around them has become so rarified that they simply aren't in touch anymore... What am I supposed to do - go to Sacramento and DC and give each of them a "taper slap?" (Those of you who are prior enlisted know precisely what I'm talking about - it's a useful "wall-to-wall counselling" technique.) I'd like to, but most of them are lawyers, and even if assault is morally required in some cases, for some damn reason it's still illegal (Hell.)

I'll also grant that cops do have enough to do - which is why there is room for discretion in law enforcement. Still, I'd honestly like to see more focus on major issues (and no, I'm not talking about drug enforcement either. That's another case of "doing the same thing the same way, over and over again, and expecting a different result." I am honestly inclined to think that decriminalisation is going to be an effective first step, rather than sentence enhancement. I haven't been able to fully assemble my thoughts on this either - but decriminalise and control the drug trade, and we'll take care of a lot of ancillary problems straight away - like associated street crime and gangs.)

I don't mean to say that I've not had respect for cops - I grew up around several, and all were top-notch individuals (one was a retread - 20 years CHP and then 22 on Lafayette, IN PD before he retired. I won't go into his last day on the job, but I was also a pallbearer at his son's funeral, if that tells you anything...) I'll also grant that most cops these days seem to be kids that didn't keep their lunch money past first recess in grammar school, but that's neither here nor there in regards to this discussion.

I do hope that the cops who did issue this citation (specious as it may be,) were setting an example by their actions, but I'm inclined to not think so. I've seen too much asshattery in uniform to assume the best, although I'm not ready to consistently assume the worst all the time. However, I think cops do need to be reminded that they ENFORCE the law, and they are not ABOVE the law, and they are more supposed to follow it (and set a positive example) than anyone else - save, possibly, the lawmakers (and do NOT get me started on them!)

I have no trouble at all with EMT's, paramedics, and firemen - but I've not met any full-on asshats there. I've met a few with ego issues, but nothing that can't be resolved.

Interestingly, I've also not met too many asshats in the Sunnyvale DPS - probably because they spend six months a year as cops, and the other six as firemen. It's interesting to see that they know "how the other side lives," and it's also fun to watch a high-risk warrant being served off of a fire truck, and some jackass put up against a wall with a force ax. Besides, who better to take down a meth lab? Call the fire department - we're already here! Perhaps this is an idea that should be more widespread...

5-90

[HilltopXJ]

I try not to hate cops for doing their jobs - although I do take issue with the lawmakers, who make their jobs more difficult, and make it difficult for us to follow the laws.

What am I talking about? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Have you been to a law library? Gawd - if "ignorance is no excuse," I guess we're all required to spend one month a year just catching up! Considering there are something like TWO DOZEN areas of legal specialisation (I can see medical specialisation, but legal? This is a CREATED system, which should be kept simple!) how is the common citizen supposed to keep up with it all? Hell man - my wife works in corporate legal, and has damn near NO idea what's going on in other areas - she has enough to do keeping up with corporate law!

Take it up with my lawmakers? I often do. Granted, I've not been able to organise my thoughs sufficiently to take on the "whole system" (and I've got my thoughts on THAT!) but I do go after them on various aspects of the thing, and I do (sometimes...) get answers which are both on topic and wholly useless. The air around them has become so rarified that they simply aren't in touch anymore... What am I supposed to do - go to Sacramento and DC and give each of them a "taper slap?" (Those of you who are prior enlisted know precisely what I'm talking about - it's a useful "wall-to-wall counselling" technique.) I'd like to, but most of them are lawyers, and even if assault is morally required in some cases, for some damn reason it's still illegal (Hell.)

I'll also grant that cops do have enough to do - which is why there is room for discretion in law enforcement. Still, I'd honestly like to see more focus on major issues (and no, I'm not talking about drug enforcement either. That's another case of "doing the same thing the same way, over and over again, and expecting a different result." I am honestly inclined to think that decriminalisation is going to be an effective first step, rather than sentence enhancement. I haven't been able to fully assemble my thoughts on this either - but decriminalise and control the drug trade, and we'll take care of a lot of ancillary problems straight away - like associated street crime and gangs.)

I don't mean to say that I've not had respect for cops - I grew up around several, and all were top-notch individuals (one was a retread - 20 years CHP and then 22 on Lafayette, IN PD before he retired. I won't go into his last day on the job, but I was also a pallbearer at his son's funeral, if that tells you anything...) I'll also grant that most cops these days seem to be kids that didn't keep their lunch money past first recess in grammar school, but that's neither here nor there in regards to this discussion.

I do hope that the cops who did issue this citation (specious as it may be,) were setting an example by their actions, but I'm inclined to not think so. I've seen too much asshattery in uniform to assume the best, although I'm not ready to consistently assume the worst all the time. However, I think cops do need to be reminded that they ENFORCE the law, and they are not ABOVE the law, and they are more supposed to follow it (and set a positive example) than anyone else - save, possibly, the lawmakers (and do NOT get me started on them!)

I have no trouble at all with EMT's, paramedics, and firemen - but I've not met any full-on asshats there. I've met a few with ego issues, but nothing that can't be resolved.

Interestingly, I've also not met too many asshats in the Sunnyvale DPS - probably because they spend six months a year as cops, and the other six as firemen. It's interesting to see that they know "how the other side lives," and it's also fun to watch a high-risk warrant being served off of a fire truck, and some jackass put up against a wall with a force ax. Besides, who better to take down a meth lab? Call the fire department - we're already here! Perhaps this is an idea that should be more widespread...

5-90


Nicely said!

:cheers:

[5-90]

Nicely said!

:cheers:

Just for my own edification, which part did you like?

5-90

[RichP]

Since its always hard to tell if you are being serious or not...I am going to take a gamble and say you are.

If you feel this way do you also feel we should tax McDonalds for making us fat?

Sorry but laws protecting me from myself are not what this country is supposed to be about. Helmet laws, Seatbelt laws, and fast food laws(trust me they are comming) are just stupid. BTW I wear my seatbelt because I don't want to die in my car. It should be my choice though. If you want the government to tell you how to live your life move to China...or at least California.

Actually NY City is passing an ordanance to allow only a certain number of 'fat fast food' places within a certain distance of each other, based on that it will entice 'slimmer fast food' places to move in and offer a bigger selection of 'healthy' foods, go figger... we need to start limiting the number of new laws that elected people can do and add a requirement that for every new law they put in place they have to remove two useless ones...

[jml1911a1]

If I knew 5-90 would be around, I wouldn't have needed to post...I echo his positions on these things.

I can't believe you're asking these questions. What kind of a country do we live in? You obviously don't pay attention to all the crime/rape/murder and stupid acts that create job security for law enforcement around America today. Cops exist because people break laws. It's as simple as that. There has to be some level of civility.
Sure, there does. How do seat belt laws--and more specifically, enforcement of seat belt laws in the referred-to instance--make society more civil?
As to what they were doing out there, see quote below. The good Dr. is absolutely right, they are in that area for a reason. And obviously you've never listened to a cop tell how wonderful it is to make a phone call and wait with glee for some dumbass kid's parents to come to the hospital and tell them that their son is now a permanent vegetable due to some teenage bravado mixed with alcohol. They DO scrape a lot of people off the road and recreational areas that didn't need to die and it's not pleasant. And PASSXJ nailed it when he said it costs YOU the taxpayer money for them to have to do that.
Life is occasionally unpleasant. How far do we need to go? Babies drown in bathtubs every year. Shall we ban baths for babies? People fall down stairs and are paralyzed. Mandate elevators?
Not to mention that they are under oath to enforce the laws. If they see a violation they are required to take action. It's their job. I will give you this, not all of them do it with the right attitude and I know a small few who SHOULD NOT be wearing a badge or carrying a gun. But as far as law enforcement here in northern utah (I can't speak for your area) my experience, and I have my fair share, is that GENERALLY SPEAKING, they are just trying to do their job, support their families, and keep the public safe. If you get a ticket and don't like it, don't take it out on the cop. THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAW. Argue with the judge and take the issue up with your local lawmakers...
Cops take an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States." What part of the Constitution mandates enforcement of victimless crimes? Cops need to do more thinking about what laws they are enforcing--and no, they don't HAVE to enforce every law on the books.

[Brad M.]

Coming to the BBQ on Sat? :D

Yup :)

[RedHeep]

Helmet laws and seatbelt laws should only be enforced for people who make millions playing sports. Apparently when they signed the contract, they gave up their citizenship.

An echo for what everyone else said, if you break the law, you pay the consequences. If you don't like the law, vote for someone who will change it. How many of us didn't vote last time we had a chance to voice our opinions democratically?

[Brad M.]

[quote=jml1911a1]If I knew 5-90 would be around, I wouldn't have needed to post...I echo his positions on these things.

Life is occasionally unpleasant. How far do we need to go? Babies drown in bathtubs every year. Shall we ban baths for babies? People fall down stairs and are paralyzed. Mandate elevators?


This thread rocks! Who knew you could get such a rise out of people over a seatbelt ticket? I should start one about the time the UHP pulled me over cause my tires stick out 1" past my flares... :)

[Brad M.]

If I knew 5-90 would be around, I wouldn't have needed to post...I echo his positions on these things.

Sure, there does. How do seat belt laws--and more specifically, enforcement of seat belt laws in the referred-to instance--make society more civil?

Life is occasionally unpleasant. How far do we need to go? Babies drown in bathtubs every year. Shall we ban baths for babies? People fall down stairs and are paralyzed. Mandate elevators?

Cops take an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States." What part of the Constitution mandates enforcement of victimless crimes? Cops need to do more thinking about what laws they are enforcing--and no, they don't HAVE to enforce every law on the books.

Oops, let me try the quote thing again...

[dmillion]

Why is everyone so hard on a guy...
It's real simple. He broke the law, he got a ticket, and instead of dealing with it he comes on here whining and name-calling and looking for sympathy.

If the subject line was something like "stupid seatbelt laws" and the original post had said something like, "I got a ticket for not wearing my seatbelt and I'm kind of pissed off. I don't think it's right, because a seatbelt wouldn't have made me any safer and it should be my choice anyway," then I would have agreed with him completely.

Is it a stupid law? Yeah, maybe so. That's not the issue, though. The issue is that when you are in the wrong, and the cops are just doing their job, you don't call them "ass faces," or "ass hats," or anything else like that. You want to complain about a bad law, do it. When you call people names just because they were doing their job and you got caught, it's YOU who's being an ass-hat, not them.

[bjoehandley]

I one of the stores I work in is run by a retired sheriff and long time cop, he always said that they didn't make the laws, they just had to enforce them. If they were on private property, they shouldn't have even been stopped and probably could have placed the officers in question under citizens arrest for tresspassing if it was their property, but in this case they were probably on public land and are lucky thats all they got.
My sister's boyfriend got a ticket the other day for not putting on his seatbelt, the cop watched him back out of his (well I should say his Mom's, but you get the drift) driveway and was putting the belt on as he backed up. As soon as his back tire hit the street, cop gave him a ticket not having a belt on, seeing as this was mostly on private property, this seems like a somewhat questionable ticket to me if the majority of his vehicle was still in the driveway and it was clearly visible that he was in the process of putting it on.

I have to wonder how much cheaper it would be and how many lives it would save in the long run to make safer drivers (maybe real Drivers Ed teachers with actuall qualifications and a qualifyable (sp?) skill in place of using gym coaches, starting drivers training at a younger age but give them their licenses at a later age, etc) over safer vehicles and exessive laws.

[FitchVA]

I have to wonder how much cheaper it would be and how many lives it would save in the long run to make safer drivers (maybe real Drivers Ed teachers with actuall qualifications and a qualifyable (sp?) skill in place of using gym coaches, starting drivers training at a younger age but give them their licenses at a later age, etc) over safer vehicles and exessive laws.
but that would put too much accountability on the shoulders of people. and in our sue-happy society, it's never "my" fault. it sucks, but that's the way it is.

[dmillion]

...probably could have placed the officers in question under citizens arrest for tresspassing if it was their property,
Yeah, why don't you try that the next time you see a cop on private property.

SHEESH!

This sort of thing is why people say, friends don't let friends take internet legal advice.

[HilltopXJ]

I try not to hate cops for doing their jobs - although I do take issue with the lawmakers, who make their jobs more difficult, and make it difficult for us to follow the laws.

This is a CREATED system, which should be kept simple!

I'll also grant that cops do have enough to do - which is why there is room for discretion in law enforcement. Still, I'd honestly like to see more focus on major issues (and no, I'm not talking about drug enforcement either. That's another case of "doing the same thing the same way, over and over again, and expecting a different result." I am honestly inclined to think that decriminalisation is going to be an effective first step, rather than sentence enhancement.

decriminalise and control the drug trade, and we'll take care of a lot of ancillary problems straight away - like associated street crime and gangs.)

I don't mean to say that I've not had respect for cops - I grew up around several, and all were top-notch individuals.

I'll also grant that most cops these days seem to be kids that didn't keep their lunch money past first recess in grammar school, but that's neither here nor there in regards to this discussion.

I do hope that the cops who did issue this citation (specious as it may be,) were setting an example by their actions, but I'm inclined to not think so. I've seen too much asshattery in uniform to assume the best, although I'm not ready to consistently assume the worst all the time. However, I think cops do need to be reminded that they ENFORCE the law, and they are not ABOVE the law, and they are more supposed to follow it (and set a positive example) than anyone else - save, possibly, the lawmakers

I have no trouble at all with EMT's, paramedics, and firemen - but I've not met any full-on asshats there. I've met a few with ego issues, but nothing that can't be resolved.

Interestingly, I've also not met too many asshats in the Sunnyvale DPS - probably because they spend six months a year as cops, and the other six as firemen. It's interesting to see that they know "how the other side lives," and it's also fun to watch a high-risk warrant being served off of a fire truck, and some jackass put up against a wall with a force ax. Besides, who better to take down a meth lab? Call the fire department - we're already here! Perhaps this is an idea that should be more widespread...

5-90

Sorry I didnt clarify 5-90, I was abit to tippsy last nite.

Its a sad country when you can just walk out your front door and practically be considered outlaw.
Both my dad and my grandfather were both cops. I dont know much about my grandfather when he was a cop, but my dad couldn't wait to retire. He finished his career and retired from the Prescott,AZ
police department. Some of the stories he told me about the corupt PD there
would make a man sick. This was durring the 70s&80s when he was there.
So it could have changed by now, alot had to do with drug trafficking and extortion.
My dad always said to be very courteous to an officer of the law,
because you never know what kind of day hes had and he might take it out on you.
I have never heard of policeman/fireman good idea I think. My bro is a
fireman/emt back in SD and he seems to love his job. Of course not to much crime in SD.
As far as the seatbelt goes, I wear mine probably mine 99% of the time.
I live at the end of a 2mile private road. I will click it about 100yds before the hiway. Dont know why but I do.

[streetpirate]

My dad always said to be very courteous to an officer of the law,
because you never know what kind of day hes had and he might take it out on you.










As far as the seatbelt goes, I wear mine probably mine 99% of the time.
I live at the end of a 2mile private road. I will click it about 100yds before the hiway. Dont know why but I do.



X2 on both accounts.
ive had the living $hit scared out of me by 'po before, and the intimidation feeling is the worst thing in the world.
how many of you have woken up at 2am to piss and had a county sherrif standing in your hallway pointing a gun and a flashlight at you. im just glad i wear boxers when i sleep.

(overly intoxicated family member repeatedly calling 911 and hanging up, i guess they dont like that)

[DrMoab]

You know what cracks me up about this whole thread? Every single one of you that have jumped his case would have been equally pissed if it would have been you.

He was in a place that is pretty much a parking lot in the mountains on a very small dirt road. NOT on the highway, NOT even on a rural country road!

If one of you can tell me if you were in your rig, checking your flex or moving up 50 fee to get out again and you put your seatbelt on then you are either.

A. Extremely anal retentive and probably think it should be a law to wear knee pads when you.....do whatever extremely anal retentive guys do on their knees.

or B. are just a liar who likes to pick on other people on the net.

[Rev Den]

you are...Extremely anal retentive... just likes to pick on other people on the net.

I resemble that remark. :D

Rev

[RichP]

You know what cracks me up about this whole thread? Every single one of you that have jumped his case would have been equally pissed if it would have been you.

He was in a place that is pretty much a parking lot in the mountains on a very small dirt road. NOT on the highway, NOT even on a rural country road!

If one of you can tell me if you were in your rig, checking your flex or moving up 50 fee to get out again and you put your seatbelt on then you are either.

A. Extremely anal retentive and probably think it should be a law to wear knee pads when you.....do whatever extremely anal retentive guys do on their knees.

or B. are just a liar who likes to pick on other people on the net.

Like I said at the beginning, there is the letter of the law and the intent, they were enforcing the letter of the law which makes them asshats, same as game depts that use the confiscation drug laws to steal cars when the owners come out of the woods, open their tailgate on their pickup and sit on it while they unload their rifle, letter of the law is thats a loaded weapon in a vehicle, felony, intent was for the drug agencies to seize assets, all the other police agencies see it as a free ticket to seize other items.

[DrMoab]

I also wanted to mention that in Utah they cannot pull you over for a seatbelt violation. They can pull you over for a busted tail light and give you a seatbelt ticket, but a seatbelt violation is not a primary offence. If these cops did what this guy said they did....they were in the wrong.

[bjoehandley]

DrMoab You know what cracks me up about this whole thread? Every single one of you that have jumped his case would have been equally pissed if it would have been you.


Sounds right on the money to me.

RichP Quote:

Like I said at the beginning, there is the letter of the law and the intent, they were enforcing the letter of the law which makes them asshats, same as game depts that use the confiscation drug laws to steal cars when the owners come out of the woods, open their tailgate on their pickup and sit on it while they unload their rifle, letter of the law is thats a loaded weapon in a vehicle, felony, intent was for the drug agencies to seize assets, all the other police agencies see it as a free ticket to seize other items.

That has to be fightable in court!

DrMoab I also wanted to mention that in Utah they cannot pull you over for a seatbelt violation. They can pull you over for a busted tail light and give you a seatbelt ticket, but a seatbelt violation is not a primary offence. If these cops did what this guy said they did....they were in the wrong.

Unfortunetly the State of Illinois has fixed that problem, they can stop you for that legally now. Mom hates seatbelts and had all but refused to wear one up until the last couple of years when my sister and myself started insisting that she wears one so that we didn't get pulled over when she rode with us. When I had my Shadow it was kinda funny when I picker her up from work in it for the first time in that car, I tought she was going to crawl through the sunroof the first time that car put the belt on for her after she closed the door! I'm still kinda curious how far out of the driveway my Sister's boyfriend was when he got got his ticket.

[lawsoncl]

I also wanted to mention that in Utah they cannot pull you over for a seatbelt violation. They can pull you over for a busted tail light and give you a seatbelt ticket, but a seatbelt violation is not a primary offence. If these cops did what this guy said they did....they were in the wrong.

I used to live in MD, where they would pull you over under a bogus reason like "unsafe lane change" or "passing through a yellow light" (which is legal in MD, but not in DC). They would issue a verbal warning because you can't appeal or fight a verbal or written warning. Of course now that they have you pulled over they can write the ticket for the seatbelt they could clearly see you weren't wearing.

They also used to sit outside the bars and use this tactic to pull the outgoing customers over just so they could get a closer look and do a roadside sobriety check on the ones that didn't seem coherent enough. Just a way of fudging a reason to pull you over and look for other violations.

[dmillion]

You know what cracks me up about this whole thread? Every single one of you that have jumped his case would have been equally pissed if it would have been you.
Nope. Wrong.

In the first place, I would have been wearing my seatbelt, so it wouldn't have happened to me. In the second place, I might have been pissed about it, but I wouldn't have come on hear whining about the "ass-hat police officers." I would have maybe complained about the law, and about how friggin' stupid it was of me to get caught, but I would NOT have blamed it on the cops and pretended like I was the victim here.

Sorry, but you're just completely wrong about this.