slinkier springs please...

i'm running 6.5 inch rusty's springs and @ full downward flex they would fall off my bumpstops, what gives? is this just springs in general or are there better springs to be running? and why doesnt anybody ever run full coilovers? thanks alot, jordan

There are always better springs to run, but it's call limiting straps.......:thumbup:

There's nothing wrong with dropping coils out.

If you go to a 'slinkier' spring it won't change anything. It'll be a much longer spring to start with, with a much softer rate. By the time it gets to where it is in your pic the downforce from the spring will be minimal compared to the weight of the tire/axle and the moment reaction from the opposite tire.

I'd rather have a stiffer spring that drops like that, than a softer spring that stretches all the way.

Who needs limiting straps? :roll:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/xjoe/DSCF0236.jpg

I say get a set of straps, set them at where they need to be.

You're shocks are pretty long, which is limiting your droop way past the springs extension. If you want that much droop, that's what's going to happen, it has nothing to do with the springs. If you don't want that much droop, use limiting straps or get a shorter shock. I also wonder if you're bottoming out your shock on a hard hit on full compression. In the pic, the shock shaft looks barely longer than the amount the spring is hanging down from the spring seat.

Like was said above, if you got a spring long enough to not do that, then it would have a very soft spring rate so it would collapse enough to provide your ride height, and then it would be way too soft to provide good handling. For my tatses, I have a very stiff coil and use limiting straps. I used to have flex like that, but it has more negatives than positives, so my front flex is dialed way back......yet I still have long shocks and plenty of flex.

Give the Currie bumpstops a shot. They hang on to the spring quite well. I use them on my TJ. I pretty sure they'll work for your application as well.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/product.aspx?id=1075

By the looks of the pic, I'd say your brake line is working quite well as a limit strap...... looks like a bango string...

I run a tnt long arm and had the same issues. All I did was make sure the spring was hooked well at the bottomand live with it. They have always came back to thesame spot for me. Just my .02 worth.

I used to drop mine right out of the truck 3 or more times during a day of wheeling. A fabricated spring keeper on the bottom and a set of limiting straps through the springs keeps them in.
I second the brake lines. Get them extended. and make a set of straps.

Goatman said:

You're shocks are pretty long, which is limiting your droop way past the springs extension. If you want that much droop, that's what's going to happen, it has nothing to do with the springs. If you don't want that much droop, use limiting straps or get a shorter shock. I also wonder if you're bottoming out your shock on a hard hit on full compression. In the pic, the shock shaft looks barely longer than the amount the spring is hanging down from the spring seat.

Like was said above, if you got a spring long enough to not do that, then it would have a very soft spring rate so it would collapse enough to provide your ride height, and then it would be way too soft to provide good handling. For my tatses, I have a very stiff coil and use limiting straps. I used to have flex like that, but it has more negatives than positives, so my front flex is dialed way back......yet I still have long shocks and plenty of flex.

Click to expand...

the shocks are perfect for my use and i really dont bottom out unless i'm bombing the fire roads, and using shocks as downward limits is the quickest way to destroy your shocks from what i've been told, but what do you mean by that much flex does more damage than good? i always thought the more articulation the better, and where do you get/put limiting straps, i cant say i've ever seen these on a rig before, only heard of them

thanks, jordan

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/home.php?cat=40

http://www.mastercraftseats.com/access-limitstraps.shtml

http://www.deist.com/main.asp

http://www.northridge4x4.com/proddetail.php?prod=PS-PARTSLIMITSTRAPS

DangerousJordan said:

the shocks are perfect for my use and i really dont bottom out unless i'm bombing the fire roads, and using shocks as downward limits is the quickest way to destroy your shocks from what i've been told, but what do you mean by that much flex does more damage than good? i always thought the more articulation the better, and where do you get/put limiting straps, i cant say i've ever seen these on a rig before, only heard of them

thanks, jordan

Click to expand...

anybody?

DangerousJordan said:

anybody?

Click to expand...

There isn't any point to having more droop than spring. There isn't any pressure on that wheel once there isn't any spring left which = no pressure/traction to the ground plus it's a pain in the neck trying to make sure the spring stays put. Just use the Currie bumpstop/spring holder or limiting straps and do it right. There's no pride in a half assed job.

DangerousJordan said:

the shocks are perfect for my use and i really dont bottom out unless i'm bombing the fire roads, and using shocks as downward limits is the quickest way to destroy your shocks from what i've been told, but what do you mean by that much flex does more damage than good? i always thought the more articulation the better, and where do you get/put limiting straps, i cant say i've ever seen these on a rig before, only heard of them

thanks, jordan

Click to expand...

Not bottoming out on fire roads is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're bottoming out while bomping down a dirt road the shocks are too long, and you will eventually break either the shock or the mount, or both. Since you don't need all that droop for good trail performance, a slightly shorter shock that won't ever bottom out is a good idea. You can ruin a shock quicker by bottoming out on it than you will by using it to stop droop.

Flex is a good thing. But, like most things, you can have too much of a good thing. Once you have an adequate amount of flex, getting more might look good at times, but it really won't provide better performance over a rig that has less flex. When you have lockers, and you're flexed out, a tire that is hanging so low that it only has it's own weight on it doesn't contribute much to traction, and the tire on the other side that is stuffed has so much weight on it that you already have the traction you need. Many rigs that have too much flex suffer from a lack of stability, which can hurt trail performance. Since full coil TJ's came out, many of them have gone to sway bars to slightly limit flex and put stability back in the rig. Also, many, if not most, rock buggies run sway bars front and rear to add stability. So, you need enough flex, but you don't need as much flex as you can possibly get.

DangerousJordan said:

t... and using shocks as downward limits is the quickest way to destroy your shocks from what i've been told...

Click to expand...

That depends on the shocks. The documentation for my bilstien 7100's specifically says they *can* be used for a limiting strap, except in high speed situations - but that they can never be bottomed out.

And I third extending the brake lines. Having one of those tear out gets ugly fast.

TheRedlines said:

There isn't any point to having more droop than spring. There isn't any pressure on that wheel once there isn't any spring left which = no pressure/traction to the ground

Click to expand...

This isn't entirely true. There's a reaction from the stuffed side that provides some downforce on the droop side - especially if you're on the bumpstop...plus the weight of the tire and some of the axle weight. It's when you start lifting tires and stuff that it really becomes a problem, because then you're just hanging weight off the opposite side of the vehicle and removing weight from the side that has traction.

Here's a pic from when I was first mocking up my rear suspension...



The issue I had there is that the distance from the frame rail to the axle is pretty short - those are stock rear ZJ springs. So unless I let the coils drop out a bit, I wasn't going to have much down travel in the rear. The shock travel stops right when the springs reach the end of those posts so I don't have to worry about the coil falling out (will be doing limit straps once I get this dialed in a little more). So far it's proven to be quite stable and very predictable.

Yeah, I don't see a problem just with the coil dropping away from the seat, that happens in many situations. When setting up coilovers it's nearly impossible on rockcrawlers to get the desired spring rate and ride height correct without using a third (no spring rate) tender coil that keeps a small amount of tension on the coils as they drop away from the seat.

The issue is that additional droop (or flex) that causes other negative things to happen is useless. Set the suspension up so that all of the components do what they're supposed to do, then live with that amount of travel........it will work the best that way.

awesome thanks

vetteboy said:

This isn't entirely true. There's a reaction from the stuffed side that provides some downforce on the droop side - especially if you're on the bumpstop...plus the weight of the tire and some of the axle weight. It's when you start lifting tires and stuff that it really becomes a problem, because then you're just hanging weight off the opposite side of the vehicle and removing weight from the side that has traction.

Here's a pic from when I was first mocking up my rear suspension...

The issue I had there is that the distance from the frame rail to the axle is pretty short - those are stock rear ZJ springs. So unless I let the coils drop out a bit, I wasn't going to have much down travel in the rear. The shock travel stops right when the springs reach the end of those posts so I don't have to worry about the coil falling out (will be doing limit straps once I get this dialed in a little more). So far it's proven to be quite stable and very predictable.

Click to expand...

I don't haver any argument with your situation. My point comes in when you are flexing so much that you are dropping springs out of your rig and holding up the pack especially when this could easily be eliminated by the use of limiting straps.

TheRedlines said:

I don't haver any argument with your situation. My point comes in when you are flexing so much that you are dropping springs out of your rig and holding up the pack especially when this could easily be eliminated by the use of limiting straps.

Click to expand...

True enough...as long as the springs go back to where they were when the vehicle comes down, then I'm cool with it.

Finally got mine to the point where I could play with it (read: finally made a front driveshaft), so here's where it sits as far as travel:









None of the springs are close to popping out, and it still felt really nice even with the coils unweighted, so I guess it'll work for now.