Cant Get rid of DW

[Nik]

I had my cherokee in the shop and had a new track bar bracket for the stock front axle made to adapt for a Re adjustable track bar and had the toe and alignment all set correctly. We are in the middle of building a 44 for up front, the only thing holding me back is money. The reason I had it taken in was horrible death wobble up front. It was bad. It seems it is coming from the right front tire. I had them titen all of the front linkege tight. I drove it around for a while and it felt fine and went over to my buds, on the way home it kicked back up right as I hit 3rd gear, Scared the shit outa me and I thought it was fixed, the only two things I can think of are Track bar or adjustable control arm problems. The shop I took it to said it all looked great up front, So now I am lost without a vehicle.

I'm just trying to get it rolling down the pave ment.

Someone want to explain solutions of DW to me, I will try evarything to fix it.


:wstupid:

[Ralph]

A bad or unbalanced tire or a bent wheel can cause DW too.

RR3

[Nik]

I had the tires all mounted and balanced when I bought them, The rims are brand new too with no road time

[ChuckD]

How much lift? Alignment specs?

[dave]

balljoints? unit bearings? control arm bushings? sloppy heims?

[Nik]

all bearing, balljoints are good, and I just replaced bushings. All my heims are brand new, I only have had it out 1 or 2 times and had to bring it back due to the wobble.


I just had it aligned when I took it in for the track bar bracket

[juicexj24]

What kind of rims are you running and are they bent? I just went through this. I had loose lower control arms, slop in the tre rod ends, and a bent rim from blowing out a tire. So I replaced and bolted everything down. Still had the DW's. So I went back to the stock rims. Problem solved. Bent rim was the deal. I would have them balanced again. A good shop should be able to tell you if there bent or not. Juice

[rockwerks]

and had the toe and alignment all set correctly.

How do you know this...did you personally check?..most shops do a "close enough" toe in setting...you need to check it yourself with a tape measure....if its more than 1/8" of toe in you are in DW territory.

[RCP Phx]

My buddy was running my old(est) lift with PC arms and a Rusty's tracbar.He was having some DW problems.Now with my old lift(newer) and a brand new RE "Extreme duty trackbar",no DW!For me its always been the trackbar,I had it on my 2000 with only 3k miles until I install the XD trackbar!

[Nik]

I checke the toe and alignment and they were fine, The rims are brand new, not even gone off road, I had the tires balanced when mounted and they did a damn good job, I bought from NTWonline.com Everything is brand new, I have maybe a mile on the rims and tires. The track bar is a RE adjustable, brand new, I'm thinking it could be a control arm problem, Im going to disconnect the lca's and uca's tonight and check and titen them all up the ook fine thow, they are adjustable, so maybe I dont have them tuned to exact lengths, Thought I did though. Everything is tight and brand mnew so I am sorta lost.

Any other suggestions.

Could it be track bar anle? Its not bad at all

[RCP Phx]

Considering you still havent said anything about your year/lift/tires/suspension???????????????????????????????????

[MaXJohnson]

... or alignment specs :confused:

or wheel offset,

or air pressure,

or tire size,

or lift height,

or wheel mfg,

or ...

heavy sigh

[Eagle]

You keep saying the tire balance is fine, too, but how do you know?

Death wobble starts out as wobble. It doesn't materialize out of thin air, something has to start at least one tire wobbling. If the shimmy/wobble/shake can be confined to one tire, most people just say they have a shimmy. Death wobble is what occurs when shimmy/shake/wobble in one front tire is transmitted through the steering/suspension to the other side, which then begins to wobble in a kind of harmonic reinforcement. The mutual feedback escalates a simple shimmy into a death wobble.

Everyone here seems to have their own pet theory of what "cures" death wobble. One guy says "track bar!" Someone else says "caster angle!" Another person hollars "ball joints!"

Me, I scream "TIRE BALANCE!"

It would help a lot to know the speed at which this happens. "When I hit 3rd gear" could be anywhere from 25 MPH to 75 MPH depending on how you drive. For reasons I still cannot explain, tires that are poorly balanced virtually always start to shimmy at about 50 to 55 MPH. So if the onset of your DW is in that magic 50 to 55 MPH range, I would look first at tire balance. Try rotating front to back, or borrow a set of tires for a day from another Jeep owner who doesn't have any wheel shimmy at those speeds.

And please post your alignment data. As already noted, "I just had it aligned" doesn't mean it was aligned correctly, especially if you have a lift.

[rockwerks]

Dont you guys think its about time to post a DW sticky somewhere on this site......aplace where you can post what worked for me.....and everyone can go there to look up info on what to try...we go through this about 5 times a week.

[climbon]

I agree

[rockwerks]

a check list of sorts:

before you post have you verified :

1) tire balance

(watch em do it if you can...most shops dont do it right)

2) get out your lug wrench and try to tighen all the lug nuts.

( I cant tell you haow many times Ive seen a jeep come out of the alignment shop with the lugnuts only finger tight)

3) jacked up front tires off of ground and checked for loose parts

(everythig always feels good with weight on it!)


4) removed frame end of trackbar and checked joint

(If its a stock trackbar and you can move it with your fingers..its bad)

5) checked ball joints for play

( jack up tires about 1/4" off of driveway place block of wood under a prybar placed under front tire and pry up a little bit while watching the ball joints if any movement @ the joint its bad)

6) checked alignment toe in set @ 0*, with jeep on ground and wheels straight ahead

( a tape measure placed in the tread from one tire to teh other first in the back of the tires and then in the front..make sure it the same spot on the tread pattern on both sides.....It should be a max 1/8" less in the front than in the back)


7) check for loose or damaged shocks

(the pin on the top of the shock can become loose with hard off road use the rubber bushings can fail....with weight off the front tires if you can rotate the shock at all it's too loose)

8) check all steering joints without weight on the front.

(should feel firm no play anywhere if there is any play try to tighten it if still play replace it)

9) with front in the air check for bad hub bearings

( grab the tire on top and bottom and try to wiggle the tire up and down,, if there is play, movement up and down, the hub bearing is bad, or wheel nut is loose)

If you have checked all these items and have verified that all is good, and replaced whats bad. then post to ask a question. I dont think that there is not one person here on this site who can do these simple tests....and usually the problem will be very evident if you do a few simple tests.

[azxjman]

what about the steering stabalizer? Has that been replaced

[MaXJohnson]

add to xjnation's list a check on the steering box. Rock the steering wheel side to side and make sure you see a coresponding movement at the pitman arm. 5° or more of steering movement without moving the pitman arm is probably too much.

[rockwerks]

I will transfer this info we gather here to a page I will create on my website a direct link, that you guys can link to when the question arises...I will put in pics of each item noted and the process for checking...anyone else have any input.

when checking the steering box pitman arm also check the box to frame attachment for play...under hard use the bolts try to work their way through the attachment point.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by xjnation
Dont you guys think its about time to post a DW sticky somewhere on this site......aplace where you can post what worked for me.....and everyone can go there to look up info on what to try...we go through this about 5 times a week.

Isn't there a DW article in the members tech section?

One of the problems, of course, is that everyone has their own pet theory of how to "cure" death wobble, even if they don't even have true DW. :D

[rockwerks]

One of the problems, of course, is that everyone has their own pet theory of how to "cure" death wobble, even if they don't even have true DW.


The causes of DW don't very much...they cant there is only a limited number of simple vaiiables, what triggers DW seams to be the big debate....tires out of balance is not DW but it can cause the underlying problem to surface.

I have looked @ no less than 30 jeeps that the owners have told me had DW...after driving them, only 5 really did....and the trigger for those 5 was different in each case.

Tires out of balance seams to be one of the big triggers for DW and also the one most confused with DW...If you can drive through it...speed up and it quits it's not DW, its just an out of balance problem

The process to find the underlying problem will not change from jeep to jeep

I like to tell guys who say they have expeieinced DW " if you didn't need to change yuor short or found yourself screaming like a little girl....IT AIN"T DW!

I would like input from everyone who has delt with true DW to have input on the new DW page no my site and will try to have it up by weeks end

You know jeeps are not the only ones who can benefit from this info!

and EAGLE Im gonna steal some of your info on the tech article if you dont mind? :D

[xjaddiction]

DW almost made me get rid of my jeep. The first time I had it was on the interstate running about 70. I hit "just the right bump" and WAM... I thought I was going to wreck. I could hardly see out of the windsheild the jeep was shimmying so badly. I ended up in the median with plenty of brake pedal going on. I thought an inspection would yeild a broken CA or something visible. NADA.

History, I bought the jeep with a 3" pro comp lift on it. It had 50,000 miles and some well worn tires. The first day I had it I was getting on the interstate and hit a bump that made the front end feel.. a little light, twitchy, with a little shimmy. Hmmm... what was that. New tires, plus 2" bb, adj tracbar, and new stabilizer steering, and shocks caused the above incident to occur on the way home from the shop. It had been aligned at a 4x4 shop specializing in 4x4 alignment .

so... I changed the lift to full coils adj. CA's etc. new alingment and balance. Ok for a week, then WAM!!!!! After putting on some clean boxers, I called TEREFLEX, and asked what's up. This was 3 years ago, so no one in my hood or the internet really had a handle on this. Tereflex said to take the caster to 2.5 degrees pos. That stopped it, although ocassionally I would get that uneasy twitch when hitting a bump. That always made me feel like crappin' the 'ol drwers. It made me mad too. I talked to a man who wheeled alot at a tire store... One day, he said that he witnessed DW from his truck following a newly lifted XJ (a friend that he was following to do some wheelin' with). He said that as he approached the side (passenger), tthe driver of the XJ slammed the brakes on and he could see the right front wheel moving back, then pop forward with such force that the wheel was comming off of the ground. The tire smoked every time it hit the ground. The front axle was walking down the road. first one side going back and popping forward, then the other.

Well, no fear for me. My DW was gone... I think. Lets take those 4.5"coils, get some bb blocks on there,... ok lets stack them for a grand total of about 9"s of lift. Cool. The insueing ride on the interstate brought me home at 35 MPH with a loose track bar from the hardest death wobble I have ever experienced. Off with that lift and full 6" coils went on. I also talked to a friend that new a guy that had several 6 to 8" lifted XJ's in his stable. He works for Jeep as a mechanic, and loves the XJ. My next DW brought me to him. I was desperate. My wife had me out looking at some Ford pickups the day before. I was ready to take the loss and trade the 'ol XJ in. My new friend saved me from that loss. He has two XJ's with exactly the same lift, 8"s. One had bad DW, the other... NONE. Same tires rims etc. He made a drop bracket for the one with the DW that brought the lower CA's down about 4"s. That solved the DW. I was ready to pay him big bucks for a set. He told me that RE had just come out with what I was looking for. And.. they were stronger than what he could make, plus they lowered the upper and lower CA's. I rush ordered them and had them the next day, a Sat. I paid 80 bucks to get them overnighted (plane ride for those suckers, I prob. would of paid for a first class seat for them.), that's how desperate I was.

After the install, the ride was greatly improved. And.. even before allignment, 'ol DW was gone!!!!!!!!!!

I've had the RE DB's for a year and a half now. I've run bias swampers, had a miss-alligned front end after wheelin', wheels out of balance, loose track bar, bad steering stabilizer. NOT ONE OF THESE THINGS CAUSED DW FOR ME. I've never had DW again after the RE DB's

I've got another friend with 6"s of lift that had similar DW problems too. Gone after the RE DB's.

I've researched and researched again, this DW problem. To really get rid of DW, The DB's or a long arm are the solution. Sure there are things that you can do to TEMPORARILY get rid of it. But... let's face it, we're going off road. Our allignment will suffer and the ride home could be smelly. We will loosen a track-bar, get mud in the rims to unbalance them, and tear up a steering stabilizer or two. Are we going to live with the fact that the CA's are at too steep of an angle over 4.5"s of lift, knowing that if we aren't lucky, DW will be there to greet us? Not me!!

Has anyone ever had DW with the RE drop brackets installed? I really would like to know the answer to that question.

I know I'm wordy today, thanks for listening. It would be great to have a DW spot so I wouldn't have to write this all the time.

Happy Jeepin', from Greddy, the one with the clean drawers!!:D

[rockwerks]

I ran 6.5" of lift witout the RE drop brackets for 3 years and did expeience DW but it was always caused by bad ball joint or bent steering, and could be fixed without the DB's although I can see why they would help.....but usually DW is not a front to back motion but a side to side motion caused when flex occurs in the steering system...following my XJ during an occurance I could actually see each tire moving independent of each other from toe in to toe out...about 2" :eek:

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by xjnation


I like to tell guys who say they have expeieinced DW " if you didn't need to change yuor short or found yourself screaming like a little girl....IT AIN"T DW!



http://home.comcast.net/~cdutke/DW/DW.jpg

I think my daughter explains quite well.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by xjnation
Tires out of balance seams to be one of the big triggers for DW and also the one most confused with DW...If you can drive through it...speed up and it quits it's not DW, its just an out of balance problem

Feel free to borrow material, but please include an atrribution, since that particular article is copyrighted and I do intend to use it in a book.

I have to disagree with you about tire balance. Death wobble is death wobble, and I don't understand how you can make a distinction between "trigger" and "cause." The cause is whatever sets it off, and DW is the result.

If I'm reading you correctly, I think you're trying to say that the "cause" might be some worn suspension component, but it isn't set off unless you have something like badly balanced tires to "trigger" it. That's where I disagree. DW is DW if the shake or wobble from one wheel is transmitted into the other wheel and results in both of them wobbling/bouncing/shaking in an escalating relationship. In fact, people have driven through DW -- but it requires cojones of large magnitude to do that.

The other problem I have with your perspective is that the one time I have experienced true DW was in an almost-new, totally stock 1999 WJ that had never been off-road. It was about 6 months old and at the time probably had not more than 10,000 miles on the odometer. Thus, the steering and suspension components were not worn, nor bent. On the other hand, with my '88 XJ I have more than 238,000 miles on the vehicle and the only front end parts that have been replaced are the shocks (which are Monroes that currently have more than 100,000 on them) and the track bar -- and the replacement was used when I put it on. I have a slight shimmy at 55 MPH and it doesn't become death wobble.

Why not? Don't have a clue. But I still feel that tire balance is both the "trigger" and the "cause" in most cases. It does not require anything else being worn or bent for tire balance problems to escalate into DW.

[Yucca-Man]

Originally posted by xjnation
I like to tell guys who say they have expeieinced DW " if you didn't need to change yuor short or found yourself screaming like a little girl....IT AIN"T DW!

An easy check is to look at the driver's seat. If there's a newly formed pinch seam there, it's DW.

My alignment was off "only" about 3/4" toe-in, once that was corrected and the tires stopped fighting each other for control of the axle I was able to hit 70-80mph in areas that used to cause pucker and DW at 65...

[MudDawg]

I had DW in my 85 model after lifting AND installing new tires at the same time...my problem turned out to be caused by two tires that were out of round...they balanced out fine. DW always started when I hit a dip while going around a curve..that added just enough energy to get the ball rolling.

After truing and rebalancing, I have not had a reoccurance.

[rockwerks]

But I still feel that tire balance is both the "trigger" and the "cause" in most cases. It does not require anything else being worn or bent for tire balance problems to escalate into DW. I will put both arguments in the article I do....I have had tires out of balance by over three ounces on one wheel and 2 on the other...running 33x9.5" tires....My Xj never experienced DW with out of balance tires...even though I could get it to start by hitting bumps a certain way.....but the shimmy on the highway that was quite bad never excelated into DW....to test it my tire guy and my self made the tires out of balance on purpose to see what would happen...over 5 ounces on one tire!...it bounced...it shook ...I felt it in the steering wheel..... but we could not get it to DW. W e even tried various other mis balance arrangements and never could get it to DW just because of the out of balance,

A fellow wheeler on a saturday can get into a bunch of trouble!

but when we loosened the RE trackbar even 1/2 turn...we could then get it to DW with the tires out of balance or in balance did not make a difference.

...and yes one of the 5 that I feel had DW was a 1995...had never been off road...never lifted...and only 28,000 miles on it....the tires where out of balance and it would DW...we balanced the tires and all was fine for about 3 days then it hit again...tires still balanced.... as before but we then found the bad ball joint...and it was not that bad either... I have seen jeeps on the show room floor when I worked @ a dealer with toe in of 1/2" new dont mean right!

[2001 XJ]

I agree. Trouble with steering and DW seems to be a very common theme with XJs. A title/link devoted to this subject may be needed.

I have a 2001 XJ sport with a 3" rough country lift and brand new rims and I am running 30" BFD All terrains. It's an everyday driver so I didn't go to nuts.
I have had the tires balanced 2x and brought it back to ORI at least 2x to have a shimmy, not really total DW, and a pull to the right checked. They have had it aligned 2x and the numbers come back "dead on" according to the alignment shop, which is amazing considering from what I understand never happens. The pull to the right is not a hard pull it just doesn't go down the road straight without holding on to the steering wheel and slighty holding to the left. And it is a pretty consistent but varies with different roa surfaces and speed. After looking at other posts that gave me some things to look at and watch for, I have noticed that at cetain speeds, higher speeds over 50 I get some vibration. I am not all that comfortable going more than 60. Could vibration from the drive shaft be causing the issues? Could the vibration cause the steering problems? Would a slip yoke eliminator take care of these problems?

The wheels are cupping a little so I figured for sure the alignment was off and toe-in. Of course nobody working on my rig can get it to do the same things when they drive it and they can't find anything wrong. I have a buddy that has a 98 XJ with apparently the same problems and issues and has all but resignes to just buying new tires way more often the he should have to. He only has a 2" lift with 31" BFG allterrains.

So bottom line I like how my XJ looks but I am as annoyed as hell at its issues. I would have left it stock or left the suspension alone if I new all this was going to happen. I would have bought more aggressive tires and left it alone.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[RCP Phx]

Lift has nothing to due with it,Ive had 2 stock XJ's that had DW.Its not even an XJ/Jeep issue,Ive had it on almost every live axle vehicle Ive ever owned.
BTW,there are TSB's out recommending CA Bushing replacement,Jeep tried some "soft" compounds to ease the "soccer mom's" ride!

[javik]

not a total hijack, but do you think an oversized hole in either the bottom or top trac bar bracket will cause deathwobble? i know that the bottom is supposed to be torqued to 45lbs and the top varies by manufacture. Im only asking this because i just recieved my T&T trac bar and bracket and the upper mount hole is about 1/16 bigger than the bolt supplied. ANy slop in the front end worries me. I have experienced DW atleast 10 times in my other jeep and i think i have solved it by putting in a bigger bolt to take up slop in the lower trac bar mount. I just wonder if the upper mount slop will more than likely create the same thing.

[JJacobs]

Holy 3 year old thread!

Yes, a loose bracket or bushing on either end *can* cause problems.

[Ed A. Stevens]

Holy 3 year old thread!

Yes, a loose bracket or bushing on either end *can* cause problems.


Search is a great thing, and the appearance of an old dead thread reflects it's proper usage (and encouragement).

Where is that DW report and fix cookbook ;) for DW idiots?

:)

[XJsqared]

My buddie has a grand, no lift, no nothing. But he seems to have the death wobble. Not too often but once he says is scary enough. everything looks good and tight. But who knows. Is this normal even for no lift and lower miles?

[Dragline]

I will transfer this info we gather here to a page I will create on my website a direct link, that you guys can link to when the question arises...I will put in pics of each item noted and the process for checking...anyone else have any input.


Oh Well, Good Intentions huh?