alternate fuel

[rockclimbingpyro]

So I'm at work listening to the news talk about gas being at $3 freakin bucks and was looking around the internet at alternate fuels. I was wondering if anyone on here has actually tried swapping to some form of biodiesl or another alternate fuel source.

[BigIrish]

Some have tried acetone. Mixing it with the regular gas to improve mileage. Diesels can run propane with a few converted parts.

[Nevada City Sparky]

Just unplug two sparkplugs and injectors, you'll get 33% better gas milage (not).

[XJAnthony]

ethanol is the only alternative i kno of, or veggie oil actually, saw it somewher, cant remember where tho, and yes it was straight veggie oil

[RCP Phx]

ethanol is the only alternative i kno of, or veggie oil actually, saw it somewher, cant remember where tho, and yes it was straight veggie oil
Veggie oil NO,ethanol if you convert the entire system and dont go back(and its only like 6 bucks a gallon at the race track,good luck finding it somewhere else)!No E-85 either!

[dj's 2000 xj]

covert a diesel engine over to use veg oil. Older gas engines were converted to propane, supposed to barley wear the engine, although dont see it being cheaper. Perhaps a 2.5L swap out.

[RichP]

There is none for gas engines and there will be none, the 'establishment' is making billions that they can't make anywhere else. If you developed a pill that you could add to water to make gas you would not live long enough to patent it. An alternative fuel source that was practical, could be put into the existing infrastructure and would run in any gas burning engine developer would meet the same fate as the above pill developer. I find it impossible to believe that over the past 50 years NOBODY has developed a replacement fuel source. That someone/group has developed it and locked it in a vault somewhere I would find believeable or conceivable at any rate. It would upset too many apple carts and be a very inconvienent development for too many countries/govts/corps...
If you did develop it, manage to live long enough to patent it and actually get it into production I bet those same people would keep you tied up in court for YEARS before you sold your first production run... Just my opinion...
The germans were big on synthetics during WWII and they got pretty far with some of it...

[5-90]

Alternatively, develop a reasonably cheap alternative and then release it to the public domain as a service - while you won't make any money that way, you could release the stranglehold that petrochemistry has on the industry - somewhat.

It would be similar to figuring out a cheap and clean way to produce massive amounts of electricity - and then releasing it so that ANYONE could do it. Part of the conflict comes from the fact that fuel/electricity is probably the most profitable industry out there - but if you're not taking away their profits for your own use (just depriving them of a significant portion directly,) they've already lost half of the fight...

5-90

[RichP]

Alternatively, develop a reasonably cheap alternative and then release it to the public domain as a service - while you won't make any money that way, you could release the stranglehold that petrochemistry has on the industry - somewhat.

It would be similar to figuring out a cheap and clean way to produce massive amounts of electricity - and then releasing it so that ANYONE could do it. Part of the conflict comes from the fact that fuel/electricity is probably the most profitable industry out there - but if you're not taking away their profits for your own use (just depriving them of a significant portion directly,) they've already lost half of the fight...

5-90

There are alternatives for electricity, I did the math on replacing my roof with solar shingles, cost about $6K w/converter smart box to pump back out into the grid, I would have about $60 a month income with 600 sq/ft, that was based on family of 4, two teenagers over the past 6 years electric bills. Thats on this house which faces E/W, downside is I just spent $3K on a new roof and skylights two years ago and I'm not about to tear it off and start over. We only plan on staying here another 3 years, about year 2 we will be starting construction on a new house with a much larger roof and orientated south east for max gain on both the front in the morning and back in the afternoon. I think it was the Univ of Mi that has developed a solar cell that works even in the UV area and is around 80% efficient so it will work well on overcast days.
The only way to survive upsetting the apple cart with a gas replacement would be to turn it over to the public domain, publish it on the net to every single usenet newsgroup and forum you could find and then go hide for a while till the dust settled. gettin way off topic so I'll quit for now, gotta call it a nite...

Actually govt is the most profitable industry out there that provides very little in return for the amount you pay...

[carnuck]

I run LPG which is under $2 a gallon here (11:1 compression stroker 6) I'm trying to get time to finish assembling my new stroker so I can go injected propane next.

[5-90]

Actually govt is the most profitable industry out there that provides very little in return for the amount you pay...

"Very little?" Try "squat" and you're close. I'm not going to say there is NO use for government (gimme a bit, and I'll think of something...) but there's damn little they do that is purely useful.

Government - elected roles and mid-level functionaries - has largely become a sinecure for the incompetent: those people who lack the wit or the skill to make it doing something productive. There are also useful people who work in government - but they are also few and far between. Elected personnel have only one commodity to offer - jawbone.

"What do you get when you put fifty Senators and fifty lesbians in a room together? One hundred people who don't do dick."

5-90

[Ghost]

Perhaps a 2.5L swap out.
Now you are talking my language! What ever happened to the gasihol of the 70's? Do the new engines have something that willnot let them run on really good alchol?

[themangeraaad]

how dificult would it be to swap to LPG? I know its not going to be the easiest/cheapest thing to do, but its could be worth looking into. I have thought about it before but never really looked into it yet. And how much *could* it save? any good writeups on it, and whats the difference between propane and LPG?

[rockclimbingpyro]

here are 2 links to what seems to be the most popular alt. fuel sites.
the first link is what chevorlete is using as an alt. fuel for some of the new vehicles that they are puttin on the market. the second is a link to BioDiesel, aparently this is getting to be kind of big. From what i understand, and correct me if i'm wrong, biodiesel will run in any diesel engine with no mods made.

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
http://www.biodiesel.org/

thought those were neat.
i do agree with RichP's comment as well.

[themangeraaad]

I have heard that the biodiesel can run in any diesel engine but it may leak if seals are going already or you may find problems down the line due to the oils in it causeing it to lubricate differently. I am not sure if I am confusing a different type of alt fuel I read about but I think that was it. They reported problems like leaking from locations where they didnt leak before, but like I said, not 100% sure

[carnuck]

My new engine is a 4.6L stroker built with 11:1 compression to take advantage of the 130 octane of LPG. Desktop dyno says @300 HP and 350 ftlbs of torque with the right cam.

[BrettM]

My new engine is a 4.6L stroker built with 11:1 compression to take advantage of the 130 octane of LPG. Desktop dyno says @300 HP and 350 ftlbs of torque with the right cam.
let us know what kind of freeway mileage you get with it when it's running, this is something I've considered with the lower price.

[JEEPTUBE]

Theyre watching us.

[fender]

Used veggie oil.....
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/2004_August_September/Burnin-Oil-on-Wheels
Got to have a diesel tho :(


From what I have read (and the article above mentions it) bio diesel is just veggie oil with alcohol and some other additives to keep its viscosity to a point that it flows easily. Any diesel put together in the last 10 years should run biodiesel without issue.

[reliablestv]

i have changed to propane in many forklifts i dont see why you couldnt do your jeep

[5-90]

i have changed to propane in many forklifts i dont see why you couldnt do your jeep

It can be done, but forklifts don't generally have the range requirement of road vehicle, and propane can be run indoors (gasoline can't.)

Also, propane has, I believe, somewhat less energy per unit mass (BTU/pound) than gasoline, so the cost of the fuel is likely to be offset by less energy produced. I may be wrong on this, but it feels like a good memory...

Apart from that, you're right on!

Don't forget the increased weight of onboard fuel storage (since a pressure vessel is necessary, and transport pressures are rather higher) and the decision to either go with direct injection or with a converter and a carburettor (the latter is usually done on forklift engines.)

5-90

[djwright4341]

Did anyone see that episode of Mythbusters where they ran a Mercedes on straight used french fry grease and the MPG was only slightly less than on diesel? No modifications to the engine either. What would that do to the engine over a long period of time?

Also, my dad owned a 1993 Geo Metro and it got 53 MPG. Really fun little car to drive, and it had 200k miles on it when he sold it to a friend. His friend drove it for another 100k miles before he moved out of the area. Cars today in the same size range as the Metro (and hybrids for that matter) aren't getting much more than 30-35 MPG. Call me crazy, but I don't really consider my XJ to be a gas guzzler when I'm still getting over half the MPG of a "more environmentally friendly" hybrid.

[87manche]

a diesel engine will run just as long on biodiesel as petrodiesel, perhaps longer due to greater lubricating properties of Biodiesel. most people don't realize that when Diesel unveiled his engine it ran on peanut oil ;)
Even if we could amass enough biodiesel production to run trains and the truck fleet on, that would drastically cut our usage, and demand. Wen demand goes down so does price.
Did you know you can make Diesel fuel from algae?

[RichP]

a diesel engine will run just as long on biodiesel as petrodiesel, perhaps longer due to greater lubricating properties of Biodiesel. most people don't realize that when Diesel unveiled his engine it ran on peanut oil ;)
Even if we could amass enough biodiesel production to run trains and the truck fleet on, that would drastically cut our usage, and demand. Wen demand goes down so does price.
Did you know you can make Diesel fuel from algae?


If we could amass enough used french fry oil to fuel the trucking fleet health care costs would go even higher from the increase in arterial disease from the people eating those frys..

[87manche]

Used fry oil is certainly not a viable solution, but, algae can be made into a biofuel with very little energy expense. It's a very good solution, as the fuel actually produces more BTU's than what it took to produce it. Unline ethanol, which is just a poor idea to start with.
I read a study that said if each county had one hectare of land devoted to algae production for bio fuel then each county would be self sufficient. Of course this was for rural areas, but a hectare isn't a whole lot of land when you consider all the land in land bank around my area not doing anything but growig weeds.

[Hoss in IL]

if biodiesel comes from veg. oil and has nothing to do with crude oil, then why is it still $3/gal at the pump?!!:gonnablow this aggrivates the crap out of me. i have a diesel truck with a 30 gal. fuel tank, i get 23mpg but $3 for a veg oil by product seems a little strange.
take care, Hoss

[5-90]

if biodiesel comes from veg. oil and has nothing to do with crude oil, then why is it still $3/gal at the pump?!!:gonnablow this aggrivates the crap out of me. i have a diesel truck with a 30 gal. fuel tank, i get 23mpg but $3 for a veg oil by product seems a little strange.
take care, Hoss

Because they aren't selling biodiesel "at the pump." Refiners are going to keep hosing us until they can't do it anymore, for some reason...

I keep thinking about getting an old Diesel and "going greasel" myself, just to bring the bills down...

5-90

[meatplow5150]

i have changed to propane in many forklifts i dont see why you couldnt do your jeep

I have looked into this in the past, specifically for my old 76 CJ7. If you live in an area with smog inspections like I do, it cannot be done in a cost-effective manner. By EPA regulations, any conversion of a gasoline engine to run on a different fuel such as propane can only be done using a "new" engine and has to be done by a company certified by the EPA to do these conversions. It is VERY expensive to convert and be street legal.

Now, if your area does not do smog and/or safety inspections that might discover your handy work, the parts to do a conversion for a naturally aspirated engine are not that expensive and are fairly easy to come by....but I would never encourage anyone to do anything illegal.:shhh:

[lilredwagn]

if biodiesel comes from veg. oil and has nothing to do with crude oil, then why is it still $3/gal at the pump?!!:gonnablow this aggrivates the crap out of me. i have a diesel truck with a 30 gal. fuel tank, i get 23mpg but $3 for a veg oil by product seems a little strange.
take care, Hoss

You're paying for the energy, and portability not the gas. (also, could you find a gallon of margerine for $3? That's still a ridiculously cheap price for a manufactured product) The only reason biodiesel seems like it might be an inexpensive alternative is because gasoline is still cheap, and there isn't a huge demand for other sources yet. As supply fails to meet demand, the price of petroleum will rise - and with it the cost of *everything*, including alternative fuels - it takes gas to grow the corn and convert it to biodiesel and truck it to the station.

Not to mention that if biodiesel becomes cheaper or more available than gasoline, the demand will rise until the cost reaches that of petroleum gas. If you're on the right side of the curve and can do a conversion cheaply, you might be able to save a couple bucks at the cost of convenience, but the best way to save money is to conserve energy rather than find the cheapest way to squander it.

I'm not as optimistic as RichP and 5-90 though. I think we are at the limits of technology, and even though there are a couple potential avenues available (and a whole lot of dead ends), the technology simply cannot be scaled. Unisolar can't even produce shingles to meet current demand, much less that of a country that has realized just how scarce energy is going to become in the near future.

It is certainly true that the oil companies have monopolized the market, but the free market economy has done most of their work for them. Petroleum has been cheaper than dirt, and infinitely useful, so there has been no demand for an alternative. No different than people eating at Ryans, shopping at WalMart and buying their jeep parts from Rock Auto.

Petroleum is a one-shot deal, and we need miracle replacement yesterday. After that, it'll be the turn of whatever has replaced us and is walking the planet in 60 million years.

[5-90]

I have looked into this in the past, specifically for my old 76 CJ7. If you live in an area with smog inspections like I do, it cannot be done in a cost-effective manner. By EPA regulations, any conversion of a gasoline engine to run on a different fuel such as propane can only be done using a "new" engine and has to be done by a company certified by the EPA to do these conversions. It is VERY expensive to convert and be street legal.

Now, if your area does not do smog and/or safety inspections that might discover your handy work, the parts to do a conversion for a naturally aspirated engine are not that expensive and are fairly easy to come by....but I would never encourage anyone to do anything illegal.:shhh:

Depends on what "law" we're talking about breaking. "A man obeys only those laws he makes for himself," and I do have difficulty with the idea of specious laws passed with no moral justification, or so hideously over-written that you end up breaking the law trying to comply.

Don't even get me started on 'regulations' - most of them are worse than laws!

Speaking of which, I'd like to start a grassroots movement to start reforming airport security - everyone show up in a loincloth and sandals (guys) or a bikini and sandals (women.) Nothing of prurient interest here - but be sure to tell Zimbu the Monkey at the gate WHY you're doing it! I wonder how long it would take to put something actually effective in place, rather than just pure harassment...

Massad Ayoob said it best - "A commercial airliner is the only place I can think of that will take away your two-inch Spyderco folder and give you a four-inch steak knife!"

Gawd.

5-90

[Nevada City Sparky]

Used veggie oil.....
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/2004_August_September/Burnin-Oil-on-Wheels
Got to have a diesel tho :(

Never gonna get the used oil now though.... I needed to get some for quenching steel during heat treating. Went to a couple of restraunts and all said their used oil was already bought and paid for.

Of course, I live in Hippie Heaven, so that's bound to happen.

We have a BioDeisel station in twon. When they opened about a 18 months ago with $3.25 gallon prices, I said they'd never make it, the price was too high. Funny what 18 months can do....

[acrid]

actually, we could all manufacture hydrogen through electralysis. the cost of a 5v solar panel and materials purchased at home depot, could transform your car to a hydrogen burning machine, burns cleaner if not as high a btu, decent enough to get around, and yes, even a high school student can do this.

http://www.clean-air.org

solar panels

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/02/03/stories/2005020300431600.htm
solar truck

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1259.html


seriously, we all need to start paying attention to what is available out there on the market. people spend too much time listening to others say "no". energy is all around us, plants, sun, atmosphere, hell the earth itself carries an electrical charge.

oxygen and hydrogen can be seperated by using electrolysis, simple as pushing 1.5 volts through a conductor with electrolytes in the water (salt) to stimulate conductivity in the water. poof, oxygen bubbles on one electrode and hydrogen on the other. yes it is that simple. look it up sometime.

my .50 cents.

[Blaine B.]

A) Start drilling in Alaska
B) Stop selling our Gulf oil to Japan/China
C) Everyone knows about the record profits oil companies are making - and yet prices continue to rise. I know you have to make a profit to stay in business - but rising prices when you are at 90%+ profit is just not right.
D) Capture Iraqi/Afghan oil to support the war effort and power our military vehicles

Just some ideas I had.

[wraithblade]

actually, we could all manufacture hydrogen through electralysis. the cost of a 5v solar panel and materials purchased at home depot, could transform your car to a hydrogen burning machine, burns cleaner if not as high a btu, decent enough to get around, and yes, even a high school student can do this.

http://www.clean-air.org

solar panels

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/02/03/stories/2005020300431600.htm
solar truck

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1259.html


seriously, we all need to start paying attention to what is available out there on the market. people spend too much time listening to others say "no". energy is all around us, plants, sun, atmosphere, hell the earth itself carries an electrical charge.

oxygen and hydrogen can be seperated by using electrolysis, simple as pushing 1.5 volts through a conductor with electrolytes in the water (salt) to stimulate conductivity in the water. poof, oxygen bubbles on one electrode and hydrogen on the other. yes it is that simple. look it up sometime.

my .50 cents.

Sure, but once you expend all that time and energy producing hydrogen and then compressing it, you might as well have built an electric car and driven twice the distance.

Oh, wait, but electric cars have batteries that have to be replaced every few years and have crappy range.

[RichP]

Here's one smokin electric for you, bit high priced but WOW, it freakin moves and has good range to boot..
http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71414-0.html?tw=wn_index_17

They a planning on the cheaper one too. My way of thinking, embed solar cells in the body and the range might go up 40 mi after its parked in the sun at work all day... the lotus engineers did a nice job on the body design too..

[acrid]

Sure, but once you expend all that time and energy producing hydrogen and then compressing it, you might as well have built an electric car and driven twice the distance.

Oh, wait, but electric cars have batteries that have to be replaced every few years and have crappy range.


whats the diff????

actually you'd spend more time making and electric car and then you're still using coal power to charge it up... unless you own some wind farm in montana.

i could build it with no specialty parts, a compressor some storage tanks and some time....

btw, this is already happening in the Bay area, co-op ed hydrogen bottled in garages and businesses for members to refill their hydrogen fueled vehicles, iceland is all hydrogen out of the frickin air..... and we call ourselves a leader in technology.... yeah whatever....

[acrid]

A) Start drilling in Alaska
B) Stop selling our Gulf oil to Japan/China
C) Everyone knows about the record profits oil companies are making - and yet prices continue to rise. I know you have to make a profit to stay in business - but rising prices when you are at 90%+ profit is just not right.
D) Capture Iraqi/Afghan oil to support the war effort and power our military vehicles

Just some ideas I had.


"our" gulf oil???? hey will you quit breathing "my" air while your at it????

[Ghost]

My vote is for Hydrogen. Damn BMW had them running in test vehicals in Germany in the 90's.

[BigG]

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

Really good hydrogen conversion plan. Gas storage is in a solidified, inert, non pressurized state. Damn government holding them back though.

[Chancer]

FYI, it's perfectly possible to covert to run 4 litres on LPG/ propane, of which there is little difference. It's an absolute favourite over here with prices waaaay higher than you pay at the pumps. Over here we have LPG at half the price of gasoline. It can be done at home, and you don't even have to lose trunk space if you concede to losing 3" clearance (underbody conversions). You can get kits from Stako (Italians do the best stuff, funnily enough) and I've found somewhere where I can get it for £450 for the full kit - you just fit it and go. I'm thinking about getting a kit to bung in a new jeep - it shouldn't be enormously tricky as long as I've got a brake pipe flaring/ bending kit - people suggest it'll take about 2 days to install.

Currently I have a 70l tank sitting in the trunk and the system is a singlepoint injection system - it is controlled by an emulator that feeds LPG via a diaphragm to the throttle body. No mucking about with drilling new injection points in the head is needed, and it clicks over when the engine's revved to 2000 rpm for the first time. Fuel consumption is comparable to gasoline and power loss is almost unnoticeable.

I reckon fitting LPG repays itself in 12,000 miles, so after that you're running on half price fuel - I don't know why it isn't more popular in jeeps in the US, considering the number of huge pickups running propane - the technology's there after all.

And don't get me started on making a waste veg oil plant for making biodeisel...

[87manche]

waste vegtable oil is not the ideal stock for producing bio diesel. A single celled algae bas stock is much more effiecient as a base, and could be produces in mass quantaties using nothing more than some shalllow pools and sunlight.

[Flip94ta]

alot of greaser fans find out about the two/three heated fuel filters that they have to find room for under the hood and get discouraged. Frys leave more than unspent fuel behind. My college is converting our bluebirds over to bio, it costs 6-8K per bus.

I'd like to knock flex fuel vehicles while I'm at it. Alot of research has shown that E85 hurts mileage on FFV's by 25-30%. The fuel is only 5% cheaper locally. If the companies would build vehicles for E85 only they mileage hit would be MUCH smaller. E85 has 105 octane if I remember correctly. But a 12-1 compression motor with healthly timing and the mileage will increase. Instead they are building 9.5-10 to 1 motors that are a poor compromise so they can run on 87.

The easiest way to save fuel and lower the price for all of us is to convert large city fleet vehicles into hybrids. GM allready has diesel-hybrid buses running in the intercity routes on the west coast. They get 60% better mileage than the regular buses. in 2004 those buses saved more US fuel than all other hybrids combined. Lets say you convert over my companies fleet, the largest vehicle fleet in the world. How much fuel could we save? I work for the postal service. We use around 125 million gallons a year in our 210,000 vehicle fleet. We have been testing hybrids/E85?LPG/CNG for years. We have the largest alt fuel fleet in the world. The newest hybrid test just hit the street in NYC. The producer thinks it will get about 30-50% better mpg. I drive the regular diesel version of the truck now and it gets a respectable 10 mpg in city stop and go, off and on stops. Thats pretty good for a 12,000lb truck. If all our trucks and UPS/Fedex/buses got 40% better mileage prices would fall nicely.
http://www.usps.com/communications/news/press/2006/pr06_036.htm