Need desk top dyno help.....

[Bones]

I have decided to run a Mopar cam in the Jeep since I will be pulling out the second bad Crane cam, but I'm not sure which of the three cams I want (though I'm leaning towards the -29 or -30).

Does anyone have RPM specs (peak torque, HP, and at what RPM, etc.) on the P4529228, P4529229 and the P4529230.
Does anyone run one of these cams in a stroker?

Mopar's listed cams specs are:

-28
AD 240/240
Overlap 24
Cent Line 108
Lift .430/.430

-29
AD 248/248
Overlap 32
Cent line 108
Lift .440/.440

-30
AD 256/256
Overlap 40
Cent Line 108
Lift .450/.450

I don't have access to a desk top dyno program. Could someone run the cams through a desk top dyno and send me the results. I don't know what other info would be needed so Here's what I can think of:

4.6L I6
Bore 3.905
Stroke 3.895
rod length 6.125 (4.0L rods)
.030 over fordged pistons / 28cc dish / Comp height overall .005 greater than stock (stock comp height-[.5 x increased stroke] +.005)
Block decked to run pistons .005 proud
Total seal rings
SS valves 1.92int / 1.56ex
P5249464 valve springs/P4452032 retainers/P4529218 keepers
3 angle valve job
Stock style 1:1.6 ratio rockers
K&N cone style filter and tube style intake with cold air box
victor head gasket .045
30lb Ford injectors
'91 Stock intake/TB
Borla header Highflow cat and cat back

Thanks A BUNCH!

Bones :skull1:

Old photo:
http://images14.fotki.com/v388/photos/4/42106/173922/IMAGE24-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/temp/tech_temp/image24.html)

[Flash]

there needs to be more info then that on the cam and .....mother mopar know that and don't give it!

Along with the lift and and the duration i would need to now if it was fig. at .050 or seat to seat, and then i would need to now, IVO(Intake Valve Open)degrees IVC,EVO AND EVC Just to plug the cam in.

If any one know these specs for the MP cam's i would like to plug them in my self and compare with all the aether cam that i have in my Dyno sim for the 4.0 stroker.


Flash.

[Bones]

there needs to be more info then that on the cam and .....mother mopar know that and don't give it!

Along with the lift and and the duration i would need to now if it was fig. at .050 or seat to seat, and then i would need to now, IVO(Intake Valve Open)degrees IVC,EVO AND EVC Just to plug the cam in.

If any one know these specs for the MP cam's i would like to plug them in my self and compare with all the aether cam that i have in my Dyno sim for the 4.0 stroker.


Flash.

That's the problem I have been having.
I can't find any power curves even in a stock motor for these cams. Mopar doesn't release any further info that I have been able to find.
AFAIK the listed duration is seat to seat, but I have no info on the valve opening/closing.
Mopar gives a recommendation for cam selection in a stock, Phase I, Phase II, and Phase III chart for various usages but I can't even find what their definition of each "Phase" is. A search on the web hasn't come up with a thing.

Bones :skull1:

http://images16.fotki.com/v3/photos/4/42106/139531/GS_LEDGE_FLEX1-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/jeep_stuff/moab/august_02/gs_ledge_flex1.html)

[Flash]

what was the spec on the crane cam? i might have the spec for that one and thanks to Dr Dyno i now have the cam spec's just have to plug them in....probalby another day thow.

my favorite cam was the comp 68-231-4(remember that I'm more interested in the torq ####then HP OK well i stayed up and did it!!!!

the MP P4529229 cam is almost identical to the comp 231 with the MP making slightly more HP on top.

the MP P452930 makes 10 less fpt at 1500 and make 16+ HP at max(4,000 rpm)

Remember that these numbers are with my spec's, not the spec that you gave me!

My base eng for my cam test is basically a poor mans 4.5 stroker!



Flash.

[5-90]

While doing research for my Power Manual a couple of years ago, I called Mopar Performance Directly (a couple of times!) to get camshaft event information - the response was a lot closer to "go suck an egg" than anything else. Maybe not in so many words (they were civil about it,) but the message was clear.

Bones, if you should decide to get one of those sticks, I'd be flattered if you could sort out valve timing events (either at .050" valve lift, or .006" valve lift. I'll correct for rockers from there - or work from .006"/.050" lobe lift, and it's a bit more work.)

And, if you want sim data files on cams that I have been able to get data for, you can download them (for Desktop Dyno 2000) from my JeepPower group, in the "files" section (groups.yahoo.com/group/JeepPower)

[Bones]

what was the spec on the crane cam? i might have the spec for that one and thanks to Dr Dyno i now have the cam spec's just have to plug them in....probalby another day thow.

my favorite cam was the comp 68-231-4(remember that I'm more interested in the torq ####then HP OK well i stayed up and did it!!!!

the MP P4529229 cam is almost identical to the comp 231 with the MP making slightly more HP on top.

the MP P452930 makes 10 less fpt at 1500 and make 16+ HP at max(4,000 rpm)

Remember that these numbers are with my spec's, not the spec that you gave me!

My base eng for my cam test is basically a poor mans 4.5 stroker!



Flash.

Flash,
My first cam was the Comp 68-231-4. I thought it was a Crane but I just found the receipt from Accurate when I bought the parts for the original build. The cam made gobs of usable power down low.

I had some starting issues with it, but in retrospect I may have had the dist. a tooth off. I've always blamed it on the aggressively sized injectors as it would flood easily on cold days. I'd have to pull the injector relay and crank it until it cleared then it would run great after it fired. It would occasionally stop rotating when trying to start as well, then kick the starter out and sound like it wanted to run backwards. I never had any starting problems with the 260H crane, but it's never felt like it could pull the way the 68-231-4 did either.

AFAIK the shop installed the original cam straight up, but because of the early problems I had with dropping two valve seats with less than 2000 mi on the motor, I don't trust a f'n thing they did. They may have advanced the cam 4*.

I have been leaning towards the -29 cam the most, but since I had the first cam I have jumped up from 33's to 35's so I don't know how much of a low end superiority the original cam was to the crane 260H and how much "lost performance" is do to the tire change. Add to that I now expect my XJ to tow a 2000lb boat and trailer around MO, KS, AR, and IL and the cam selection becomes even more murky.

Base RPM data (assuming it is for a 4.0L) from Mopar runs the -28 at 900-4700, the -29 at 1100 to 4800, and the -30 from 1300-4900 but Mopar doesn't list the rpm the cams pull the max torque and HP at.

This would be so much easier if Mopar would just let go of some info. Why the big secret? It's not like someone couldn't buy their cams and duplicate them if they wanted to.


As for the present cam here is what I have found:

Manufacturer: Crane Cams
Engine: American Motors 6 Cylinder 64-00 199-232-243 (4.0L
Vendor Part#: PowerMax H-260-2
Cam Type: Hydraulic - Flat Tappet
Description:
2200-2600 cruise RPM,
8.0 to 9.5 compression ratio advised.
Basic RPM 1500-4500

Degrees Duration @ .050 Int./Exh.: 204/216
Degrees Advertised Duration Int./Exh.: 260/272
Lobe Sep / Int Center Line: 112/0
Open/Close @0.05" Int.//Exh.: -5/29 // 45/-9
Lash Hot Int./Exh. 0/0
Gross Lift Int./Exh. Cam Lift Int./Exh .45/0.48 "0"/"0"

The valuses with "0" werent listed though cam lift would be about .281 and .300 figured on 1:1.6 rocker ratio.

Thanks again!

Bones :skull1:

Hillbilly penthouse:
http://images9.fotki.com/v182/photos/4/42106/2302266/0199-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/family_trips/mo_wine_tour/0199.html)

[Bones]

While doing research for my Power Manual a couple of years ago, I called Mopar Performance Directly (a couple of times!) to get camshaft event information - the response was a lot closer to "go suck an egg" than anything else. Maybe not in so many words (they were civil about it,) but the message was clear.

Bones, if you should decide to get one of those sticks, I'd be flattered if you could sort out valve timing events (either at .050" valve lift, or .006" valve lift. I'll correct for rockers from there - or work from .006"/.050" lobe lift, and it's a bit more work.)

And, if you want sim data files on cams that I have been able to get data for, you can download them (for Desktop Dyno 2000) from my JeepPower group, in the "files" section (groups.yahoo.com/group/JeepPower)

I figured Mopar Perf. must be real tight lipped if I couldn't find the specs anywhere on the net (beyond the limited stuff in the catalog).
Time permitting I'll get the data if I pull the motor out. If I service it in the Jeep it will be tough to acquire, but I'll try.
Thanks for the offer on the files. Guess I need to break down and get me a copy of DtD one of these days.

Bones :skull1:

Archive pic:
http://images17.fotki.com/v9/photos/4/42106/143698/5upfainfrd-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/jeep_stuff/tellico_nc/7_00/5upfainfrd.html)

[Flash]

OK what was the cam part number of the 260 H crane i can plug that on in and let ya now if pulls better or rev better.... then the comp 231.

flash!

[Bones]

OK what was the cam part number of the 260 H crane i can plug that on in and let ya now if pulls better or rev better.... then the comp 231.

flash!


Crane 753905 If memory serves me correctly.

If you can, would you run these cams with every thing else the same. It will give me a good sarting point for my selection.

Crane #753905
CompCams #68-231-4

Crane #750501
CompCams #68-115-4

Thanks,

Bones :skull1:

http://images20.fotki.com/v219/photos/4/42106/2612775/Vacation2005483-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/family_trips/four_corners_vacation_05/vacation_2005_483.html)

[5-90]

I figured Mopar Perf. must be real tight lipped if I couldn't find the specs anywhere on the net (beyond the limited stuff in the catalog).
Time permitting I'll get the data if I pull the motor out. If I service it in the Jeep it will be tough to acquire, but I'll try.
Thanks for the offer on the files. Guess I need to break down and get me a copy of DtD one of these days.

Bones :skull1:

Archive pic:
http://images17.fotki.com/v9/photos/4/42106/143698/5upfainfrd-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/jeep_stuff/tellico_nc/7_00/5upfainfrd.html)

Give me the specs you're using for your base engine and part numbers, and I'll run them for you as well in Dyno2000. I can then print the output reports as .pdf files and send them to you.

And, I did just (finally!) find data on the MPP cams. I'm inclined to believe it, since they're from Dr. Dyno's site (archie, anyhow...) so I'd probably use them myself, assuming a margin of error of +/- 5%.

What, specifically, are you trying to do, anyhow?

[Bones]

Give me the specs you're using for your base engine and part numbers, and I'll run them for you as well in Dyno2000. I can then print the output reports as .pdf files and send them to you.

And, I did just (finally!) find data on the MPP cams. I'm inclined to believe it, since they're from Dr. Dyno's site (archie, anyhow...) so I'd probably use them myself, assuming a margin of error of +/- 5%.

What, specifically, are you trying to do, anyhow?


Here's what I know for the base engine:

4.6L I6
Bore 3.905
Stroke 3.895
Rods: length 6.125 (4.0L rods), weight matched, & ARP bolts
.030 over fordged pistons / 28cc dish / Comp height overall .005 greater than stock (stock comp height-[.5 x increased stroke] +.005)
Total seal rings (5/64"-5/64"-3/16" 3.905" bore)
Block decked to run pistons .005 proud
SS valves 1.92int / 1.56ex (P5249875/P5249879)
P5249464 valve springs/P4452032 retainers/P4529218 keepers
3 angle valve job
ports mildly "smoothed" though not outright ported.
Stock style 1:1.6 ratio rockers
Cloyes True Roller timing set
K&N cone style filter and tube style intake with cold air box
Victor head gasket .045" thick
30lb Ford injectors
'91 Stock intake/TB/ECU
Borla header Highflow cat and cat back

Cams are:
Mopar #P4529229AB (the one I'm leaning towards)
Mopar #P4529230AB
Crane #753905 (what I have now)
CompCams #68-231-4 (what I had previously)

With an emphasis on the Mopar cams.

If there is any more info you need I'll try to dig it up

As for what I'm shooting for, I want good flat torque with a bias towards the 2000-2250 RPM range for crusing and continued good power through about 4000 RPM for towing. Specifically I'm trying to pick the best cam for my goal without any expensive trial and error.

Thanks for the help.

Bones :skull1:

http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/42106/2612775/Vacation2005122-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/family_trips/four_corners_vacation_05/vacation_2005_122.html)

[Lincoln]

Is that really Bones? I thought he had become another character in my imagination. How's it going?

Anyway, I had a couple of cam cards for the Mopar cams. I'll see if I can't find them. I borrowed one of the old Mopar performance books and they were stuffed in there. Haven't looked through it for years.

[Flash]

First off these comparisons are from my "Dyno Sim test bed eng" but..... the comparison of the numbers is more important then the
actual number them self.!!!

The Comp 231 make more torque at 1500 by 19 fpt, and stays ahead of the crane cam all the way up to 3,000.
At 1500 the 231 makes 3 more HP and at 4000(were the max HP is on the 231) the crane (905) had made 18 more HP and pulled off a nether 7 by 4500 (Max HP)

street racer..... Crane 905
off road cam..... comp 231


The comp cam "215" ones again had more torque at 1500 with 20 fpt more
than the the crane "701" at 1500 and by 3000 the 215 had 30 more fpt!
on the HP side the crane cam was behind the hole way thru the HP curve with it being behind by 23 HP at the end

two be fair to the crane 701 cam.......i wish that my Dyno sim would show torque from idle to 1500 because i thing that this one would be a "stump puller"!.... but loses it breath by 3500 and max torque cam in at 2000 rpm.


Street racer.....NO

stump puller..... crane 701 probably but, the 215 will pull a larger one at 1500+ rpm:)

Now the final comparison, and is why i like the 231 so much.....the comp 115 had 1 more fpt at 1500 but the comp 231 is slightly ahead from 2000 all the way up in torque and HP. 15 more fpt and 20 HP at max.

For the Mopar performance cams (MP) the 29 has the same torque and hp curve up to 3000 and then..........slightly make more power thru the HP curve. the MP 30 has 20 less fpt at 1500 but makes more HP above 3000! and make 16 more HP at 4500.

Bones ,i don't now what compression ratio that is, but in my stroker sim i chose 9.7 (probably a little high) and my rod length is 5.873 (258) not the 6.125 (4.0) that you have listed. Also, standard bore piston(3.875) and standard valves (1.91 int and 1.50 ext)

As far as the rod length go's.......I have done several Dyno sim with the two diff rod ratio's being the only variable and there wasn't much diff.

If i would have plugged a cam and head combo in that would have allowed it to twist 7 or 8000 thousand RPM then there would have (probably) been a much greater diff.


ONE FINAL NOTE:

These are only a Dyno Sim (Engine Dyno Simulator "computer program")

Do they represent the diff in performance that you have noticed

what cam did you have before you replace it with what cam and did it give ya more of what you wanted?

who has put the MP cam in? how did it compare to the previous cam!....?


Flash.

[Flash]

First off these comparisons are from my "Dyno Sim test bed eng" but..... the comparison of the numbers is more important then the
actual number them self.!!!

The Comp 231 make more torque at 1500 by 19 fpt, and stays ahead of the crane cam all the way up to 3,000.
At 1500 the 231 makes 3 more HP and at 4000(were the max HP is on the 231) the crane (905) had made 18 more HP and pulled off a nether 7 by 4500 (Max HP)

street racer..... Crane 905
off road cam..... comp 231


The comp cam "215" ones again had more torque at 1500 with 20 fpt more
than the the crane "701" at 1500 and by 3000 the 215 had 30 more fpt!
on the HP side the crane cam was behind the hole way thru the HP curve with it being behind by 23 HP at the end

two be fair to the crane 701 cam.......i wish that my Dyno sim would show torque from idle to 1500 because i thing that this one would be a "stump puller"!.... but loses it breath by 3500 and max torque cam in at 2000 rpm.


Street racer.....NO

stump puller..... crane 701 probably but, the 215 will pull a larger one at 1500+ rpm:)

Now the final comparison, and is why i like the 231 so much.....the comp 115 had 1 more fpt at 1500 but the comp 231 is slightly ahead from 2000 all the way up in torque and HP. 15 more fpt and 20 HP at max.

For the Mopar performance cams (MP) the 29 has the same torque and hp curve up to 3000 and then..........slightly make more power thru the HP curve. the MP 30 has 20 less fpt at 1500 but makes more HP above 3000! and make 16 more HP at 4500.

Bones ,i don't now what compression ratio that is, but in my stroker sim i chose 9.7 (probably a little high) and my rod length is 5.873 (258) not the 6.125 (4.0) that you have listed. Also, standard bore piston(3.875) and standard valves (1.91 int and 1.50 ext)

As far as the rod length go's.......I have done several Dyno sim with the two diff rod ratio's being the only variable and there wasn't much diff.

If i would have plugged a cam and head combo in that would have allowed it to twist 7 or 8000 thousand RPM then there would have (probably) been a much greater diff.


ONE FINAL NOTE:

These are only a Dyno Sim (Engine Dyno Simulator "computer program")

Do they represent the diff in performance that you have noticed

what cam did you have before you replace it with what cam and did it give ya more of what you wanted?

who has put the MP cam in? how did it compare to the previous cam!....?


Flash.


UPDATE: the bold/underlined ABOVE, should have read...The comp cam "115"


Flash.

[5-90]

Which head? I can play with the flow numbers I have just a bit - but I need to know where I'm starting from. Just the casting number should do (I'm almost willing to assume it's a #7120, but you know what happens when you assume...)

Here's what I know for the base engine:

4.6L I6
Bore 3.905
Stroke 3.895
Rods: length 6.125 (4.0L rods), weight matched, & ARP bolts
.030 over fordged pistons / 28cc dish / Comp height overall .005 greater than stock (stock comp height-[.5 x increased stroke] +.005)
Total seal rings (5/64"-5/64"-3/16" 3.905" bore)
Block decked to run pistons .005 proud
SS valves 1.92int / 1.56ex (P5249875/P5249879)
P5249464 valve springs/P4452032 retainers/P4529218 keepers
3 angle valve job
ports mildly "smoothed" though not outright ported.
Stock style 1:1.6 ratio rockers
Cloyes True Roller timing set
K&N cone style filter and tube style intake with cold air box
Victor head gasket .045" thick
30lb Ford injectors
'91 Stock intake/TB/ECU
Borla header Highflow cat and cat back

Cams are:
Mopar #P4529229AB (the one I'm leaning towards)
Mopar #P4529230AB
Crane #753905 (what I have now)
CompCams #68-231-4 (what I had previously)

With an emphasis on the Mopar cams.

If there is any more info you need I'll try to dig it up

As for what I'm shooting for, I want good flat torque with a bias towards the 2000-2250 RPM range for crusing and continued good power through about 4000 RPM for towing. Specifically I'm trying to pick the best cam for my goal without any expensive trial and error.

Thanks for the help.

Bones :skull1:

http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/42106/2612775/Vacation2005122-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/family_trips/four_corners_vacation_05/vacation_2005_122.html)

[5-90]

Oh - Bones? Your combination should yield a static CR of ~9.12:1, assuming I read everything right. No idea on DCR, since I don't know what cam you're going to be using at the moment. More on that as I work it out (haven't gotten that far yet. Still need to know what head you're using, and if you've shaved it at all...)

[Lincoln]

I can't seem to find the parts book I had, I may have given it back. I did find the builders guide and it has a few specs on the cams.

P4529228 - 240-240-24 duration, .430" lift, 108 centerline
P4529229 - 248-248-32 duration, .440" lift, 108 centerline
P4529230 - 256-256-40 duration, .450" lift, 108 centerline
P4529231 - 260-260-44 duration, .460" lift, 108 centerline
P4529232 - 268-268-52 duration, .480" lift, 108 centerline

Not much, so I'll keep looking for the other book.

Did find this though. Mike Lesle's 4 cylinder (puched to 3000 cc's) was running 230 HP @ 6500 rpms and Walker Evans was pushing 285 HP out of the 4 cylinder (2850 cc's).

[Bones]

Which head? I can play with the flow numbers I have just a bit - but I need to know where I'm starting from. Just the casting number should do (I'm almost willing to assume it's a #7120, but you know what happens when you assume...)

Not sure of the head casting # but it's a '94 head. I had to have a new head built with about 1700 miles on the new engine as I dropped two seats on the way to Moab. Good track record for the head specialty builder I chose to do the initial build. Not one of my better decisions in life...:anon:

Bones :skull1:

http://images20.fotki.com/v356/photos/4/42106/4263471/DSCN2160-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/family_trips/so-cal-trip/dscn2160.html)

[Bones]

Oh - Bones? Your combination should yield a static CR of ~9.12:1, assuming I read everything right. No idea on DCR, since I don't know what cam you're going to be using at the moment. More on that as I work it out (haven't gotten that far yet. Still need to know what head you're using, and if you've shaved it at all...)

I'm guessing the Head CC's at about 63-65cc's, with .030 over, 28cc dish Pistons set .005 proud. HG is Victor .045 thick.

I hope you are right because I had it way lower than that with another type of program. I went to the bigger dish pistons that Accurate had because originally I built this motor with the plan of about 6psi of boost, but the blower thing never panned out.

Relieved,

Bones :skull1:

http://images17.fotki.com/v4/photos/4/42106/114492/schafbasn-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/jeep_stuff/colorado/june_98/schafbasn.html)

[Bones]

Is that really Bones? I thought he had become another character in my imagination. How's it going?

Anyway, I had a couple of cam cards for the Mopar cams. I'll see if I can't find them. I borrowed one of the old Mopar performance books and they were stuffed in there. Haven't looked through it for years.

Tis I my good man. Suffered a short bout of AWOL time to enjoy the lake http://images14.fotki.com/v389/photos/4/42106/124698/bouncing_boobs-vi.gif (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/temp/spam_crp/bouncingboobs.html).

I just couldn't stay away from all the degenerats around herehttp://images14.fotki.com/v388/photos/4/42106/124698/sexor-vi.gif (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/temp/spam_crp/sexor.html).

Bones :skull1:

Bad day on the lake:
http://images20.fotki.com/v366/photos/4/42106/4346692/The_Moorings_1-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/temp/temp-2/themoorings1.html)

[Flash]

I can't seem to find the parts book I had, I may have given it back. I did find the builders guide and it has a few specs on the cams.

P4529228 - 240-240-24 duration, .430" lift, 108 centerline
P4529229 - 248-248-32 duration, .440" lift, 108 centerline
P4529230 - 256-256-40 duration, .450" lift, 108 centerline
P4529231 - 260-260-44 duration, .460" lift, 108 centerline
P4529232 - 268-268-52 duration, .480" lift, 108 centerline

Not much, so I'll keep looking for the other book.

Did find this though. Mike Lesle's 4 cylinder (puched to 3000 cc's) was running 230 HP @ 6500 rpms and Walker Evans was pushing 285 HP out of the 4 cylinder (2850 cc's).


In order to plug the numbers into the Dyno you would need the to have int valve open(IVO,IVC,EVO EVC) in degrees as well and lift and duration!


Flash!

[Lincoln]

Tis I my good man. Suffered a short bout of AWOL time to enjoy the lake http://images14.fotki.com/v389/photos/4/42106/124698/bouncing_boobs-vi.gif (http://public.fotki.com/Bones/temp/spam_crp/bouncingboobs.html).


Ahh boobies. I mentioned your offer for party cove to Kristen. She said I would hurt myself. :D

That looks like a good day to me. Chiboy hasn't made it out for two years but promises '07. I think he's going for a political career.

I'm thinking of a reunion of old folks is almost in order. Even though I wasn't there for the first I was around. Damn year 10 years.

[5-90]

OK - so that should be a #7120 head. I think I've got not only flow numbers for that head in stock trim, but also for a "mildly massaged" head - I'm not sure, but I'll tweak the stock numbers if they are (a mild port polishing should be good for a 6-8% flow increase.)

I'm feeling pretty ratty at the moment, so I'll run numbers to-morrow. If you PM me your email addy, I'll send you the reports once I've got them run. Cool?