Alcoholism

[riverfever]

Is it a disease associated with genetics or a decision? Discuss.

[imma honky]

Is it a disease associated with genetics or a decision? Discuss.
Decision. There is ALWAYS a choice.

[Sniggs]

"Drunkenness was often viewed as a moral lapse and a sinful choice until the disease hypothesis of alcoholism was proposed in the early 1800's. In the present day the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the American Medical Association both maintain extensive policy regarding alcoholism. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as the equivalent of alcohol dependence. The American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American College of Physicians classify "alcoholism" as a disease."

Plenty there to read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism

[imma honky]

"Drunkenness was often viewed as a moral lapse and a sinful choice until the disease hypothesis of alcoholism was proposed in the early 1800's. In the present day the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the American Medical Association both maintain extensive policy regarding alcoholism. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as the equivalent of alcohol dependence. The American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American College of Physicians classify "alcoholism" as a disease."

Plenty there to read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism
IMO, dependence means you will DIE, if you do not consume the item on which you are dependent. And that does not include alcohol in my book. I don't care what the medical journals say. It's a cop out excuse. It may be an addiction, but not a dependence.

[Sniggs]

IMO, dependence means you will DIE, if you do not consume the item on which you are dependent. And that does not include alcohol in my book. I don't care what the medical journals say. It's a cop out excuse. It may be an addiction, but not a dependence.
When you see someone DIE from detox, come talk to me - Enough said.

[imma honky]

When you see someone DIE from detox, come talk to me - Enough said.
alcohol detox???

[riverfever]

I guess I'm on the fence. I was the product of an abusive alcoholic family. I drink. I like beer. I enjoy tasting different types of it and look forward to doing some home brewing soon. I've gone through periods in my life where I thought..."I don't wanna be anything like my father", where I thought I was drinking in excess. I went several years without anything to drink and then one night ordered a beer.

I ask b/c I never believed it was a disease, but a choice. I've been reading A Million Little Pieces by James Frey. He makes some good points to argue that it's a choice. I don't make a decision and say, "I think I want to be a cancer vicitm". I don't say, I want Parkinsons. I do pick up an alcoholic beverage though.

I suppose theres a whole nother thread on this subject as well. When is someone an alcoholic? My definition would be when the alcohol effects the quality of your life or those around you. I do not drink when I fish b/c the fishing is more important. However, I do enjoy a beer or 2 in the evenings while hanging out.

[imma honky]

My definition would be when the alcohol effects the quality of your life or those around you.
I agree. I drink. Most people I know drink ALOT more than me, but I only consider a few alcoholics....... but it's their CHOICE.

[XJ Jeepin Girl]

I ask b/c I never believed it was a disease, but a choice. I've been reading A Million Little Pieces by James Frey. He makes some good points to argue that it's a choice. I don't make a decision and say, "I think I want to be a cancer vicitm". I don't say, I want Parkinsons. I do pick up an alcoholic beverage though.


Regardless of what the media has said about A Million Little Pieces, that is one of my favorite books. Whether it really is true or not, I don't care so much about. It's a good story none the less. I urge you to read My Friend Leonard when you are done.

In my opinion, I think it is a choice that can become a medical disease. You first have to chose to drink alcohol (or use drugs) and since they obviously become addictive, your body thinks it can't live without it making it sort of a disease. I do not in any way believe that alcoholism is something you are "born with" and unable to avoid. I think it has to do mostly with family or friends, really.

[Menzenski]

IMO, dependence means you will DIE, if you do not consume the item on which you are dependent.
I don't think dependence means that you'll die if you stop drinking; I think it means your body will have trouble dealing with that absence. Most people don't think of marijuana as addictive, but I had a friend a few years ago who was a heavy pot smoker during the summer and stopped spontaneously before school started. His body was really messed up; he was throwing up blood constantly and all sorts of wierd things.

On the subject of whether alcoholism is a disease or a choice: I don't think it has anything to do with genetics, but I do think that it can be hereditary. That's an important distinction: if alcoholism 'runs in the family', I don't think it's because that family carries a gene that predisposes them to alcoholism. I think it'd be because members of that family grew up with alcoholic relatives and (consciously or unconsciously) imitated them.

[creeperjeep]

I dont believe its genetic, although Ive always been told it is.
I come from an alcoholic family and although I drink occasionally I dont have a need or a want to drink all the time.
My brother and sister to my knowlege dont drink and if they do its not alot.
I think it does come down to personal choice.
I chose not to be like the rest of my family, therefore Im not a drunk

[imma honky]

I don't think dependence means that you'll die if you stop drinking; I think it means your body will have trouble dealing with that absence. Most people don't think of marijuana as addictive, but I had a friend a few years ago who was a heavy pot smoker during the summer and stopped spontaneously before school started. His body was really messed up; he was throwing up blood constantly and all sorts of wierd things.

On the subject of whether alcoholism is a disease or a choice: I don't think it has anything to do with genetics, but I do think that it can be hereditary. That's an important distinction: if alcoholism 'runs in the family', I don't think it's because that family carries a gene that predisposes them to alcoholism. I think it'd be because members of that family grew up with alcoholic relatives and (consciously or unconsciously) imitated them.
I call BS on this one. Been there done that. and I know DOZENS of people also who were heavy smokers and quit cold turkey, no probs. I think there was more to the situation.

Back on topic of alcohol. I just don't see it. My father ALWAYS had a beer on him when I was growing up. ALL of my uncles drank(is this a word?) alot gorwing up and STILL drink alot. But neither me, nor my brother tried to imitate it. I am not a drinker. I will partake in the occasional drink though. IMHO, it's weak willed people that say they "can't help it".

[riverfever]

I felt the same way creeper...I never wanted to be a drunk. I never wanted to live my life like that have my g/f have to deal with that sh!t.

Honky...that was one of my thoughts. By saying it's a disease and some people can't help it...that's a BS excuse.

Maybe it is an imitation thing though. Because of my work, I know that kids who are physically/sexually abused are very likely to do the same to their kids. So is it a choice or just doing what you think is supposed to happen? For years I was pissed at my old man. Then I finally realized that he was doing things the way my grandpa did and repeating the cycle. He was in essence...doing what he thought was right and what he was taught.

[jmowens]

Definately a choice. I used to believe that there might be a genetic link to alcoholism, but now I think that's BS too. Truth of the matter is, all humans have an addictive personality. Stop, don't rush... let me make my point.
Everybody (at least in my experience) is addicted to something. Food, beer, cigarettes, exercising, working on your vehicle, working, etc. Point is, everybody has something that they feel they need. Some just make poor choices! Alcoholism as a disease is yet another example of how we as a people don't want to take responsibility for anything anymore!

Sorry for the rant, you hit a hot button!

JM2C

[Starscream]

I think it's a choice in the beginning, but I also believe there are people who are genetically inclined to become an alcoholic much easier than others.

With that said...

Alcoholism is the only disease you can be yelled at for having.

"Dammit, Otto, you have lupus!"

"Dammit, Otto, you're an alcoholic!"

One of those does not sound right.

[Menzenski]

Whether or not alcoholism begins by choice or by heredity, I think it is only fair to consider it a disease. The definiton of "disease" given by Wikipedia is "an abnormal condition of the body or mind that causes discomfort, dysfunction, or distress to the person afflicted or those in contact with the person". Alcoholism certainly falls under that.

If you choose to drink, and become an alcoholic, that doesn't make it any less of a disease. If you contracted AIDS by choosing to have sex with an infected person, does that make it less of a disease than if you inherited it from a parent?

Everybody (at least in my experience) is addicted to something. Food, beer, cigarettes, exercising, working on your vehicle, working, etc. Point is, everybody has something that they feel they need.
I don't know that that's a good argument. If I'm 'addicted' to working on my vehicle, and I quit cold turkey, my body does not suffer any physical duress. If an alcoholic were to suddenly stop drinking, he/she would probably become physically ill.

Most people don't think of marijuana as addictive, but I had a friend a few years ago who was a heavy pot smoker during the summer and stopped spontaneously before school started. His body was really messed up; he was throwing up blood constantly and all sorts of wierd things.I call BS on this one. Been there done that. and I know DOZENS of people also who were heavy smokers and quit cold turkey, no probs. I think there was more to the situation.
There may have been more to that, I don't know. I never smoked with him. But I will say that when he gave up marijuana, he was seriously ill.

[imma honky]

Whether or not alcoholism begins by choice or by heredity, I think it is only fair to consider it a disease. The definiton of "disease" given by Wikipedia is "an abnormal condition of the body or mind that causes discomfort, dysfunction, or distress to the person afflicted or those in contact with the person". Alcoholism certainly falls under that.

If you choose to drink, and become an alcoholic, that doesn't make it any less of a disease. If you contracted AIDS by choosing to have sex with an infected person, does that make it less of a disease than if you inherited it from a parent?


I don't know that that's a good argument. If I'm 'addicted' to working on my vehicle, and I quit cold turkey, my body does not suffer any physical duress. If an alcoholic were to suddenly stop drinking, he/she would probably become physically ill.


There may have been more to that, I don't know. I never smoked with him. But I will say that when he gave up marijuana, he was seriously ill.

That's where I disagree with the definition. I beleive that a disease is something that cannot be controlled. meaning you have NO choice but to have/suffer from it.
I choose not to have cancer.....
I choose not to drink....
Which is more logical.

[Phager]

I have to disagree with you to a certain extent, jmowens. I have a long history from, a family stand point, of alcholism primarily on my mothers side. I think that there is likely a genetic marker that wil give a person a predisposition towards the abuse of any mind altering substance, be it alchohol, weed, percription pain killers, whatever. I myself had a very bad problem with alcohol in my younger years, to the point of getting 2 DUIs in less then a year, and many times when I wasn't caught. I stopped drinking right there and stayed sober for over a year, although I will drink on occasion now it takes great resolve on my part to make sure I don't take it to extremes.

That said, I do think that to a large degree it is a choice. The bottom line is that nobody forced beer down my throat and glue me to the drivers seat, there was no gun put to my head. I chose to drink and I chose to drive. I do find it reprehensible that many groups (AA included) try to downplay the personal responsibility side of this. I don't think it's possible to ever improve oneself without taking responsibilty for ones own actions. The prevailing viewpoint that alchoholism is a conditon that is outside of the "victim"s control is IMO complete BS and merely continues what I call the "victimization" of America, wherein everyone is a victim of something or other, and no personal resposibility is taken for anything.

Sorry to rant, but this is a hot button topic for myself as well.

Pat

[BOB]

I am alcoholic. in recovery. 18 years.
no alcohol, no drugs. so far, so good.
IMO alcohol is a disease.
certain genetic genes predisposes some people
to uncontrollable, addictive behavior.
Some with alcohol, some with crack.
some are gamblers, others have addictive eating disorders.
It boils down to mental health issues.
It is not a persons lack of will or desire. They are not weak.
Mentally, that person believes they will die without
their drink, crack, food, pain pills.
It creates strong sensations of fear, depression, anxiety.
It is baffling. nobody knows the answer.
that is why they have support groups.
what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another.
what works for me today, may not help me tomorrow.
like some diseases, there is no cure.

...BOB

[ssjkakkarotx]

It is a disease. I am dealing with this right now. one of my airman is in rehab because of it. I feel bad for the kid , he wants to quit but he can't. I hope the rehab center works for him

[riverfever]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob...I have been thinking about this a lot.

As a teacher, I always hate to say that I don't enjoy reading. I despise it actually. I'll read about trout all day if it will improve my technique. My g/f reads all day long. I started reading this book and am intrigued by it and find myself asking some important questions that I can't answer.

[92DripCherokee]

I quit drinking last November.
It runs in my family, Im half scotch irish for pete's sake!
It runs in my family as a tradition, but we irish do metabolize alcohol well. So there is at least an inherited capability. But thats no basis to excuse myself.
My father is a tee-totaller, he never drank as long as I've been around.
But he doesnt need drink, he lives off his faith.
I had to learn to drink from other drinkers.
I drank enthusiastically out of my misery over my unemployment, my debt, and my bachelor status. My drinking alleviated my misery in the moment, but made it worse overall.

I even kept drinking when I got married, when I got a real job.
When my daughter was born I still didnt i give it up. But my mother warned me I had better stop because of baby. And I got a cold chill. I had a vision of the awful heartache I could cause if I was a drunk around my child.

I never want to be unsteady, or slow to react if she's in trouble. I never want to say or do anything unlike myself, like I did while intoxicated.

I have a close friend who cant stop drinking, and I see his failure to quit stems from a lack of reasons to quit. He thinks the DT's hurt more than a DUI. After a while, the drinker's brain gets too addled to make a sound value judgement, the drinker becomes a victim of his or her own instinct for self-preservation. Quitting hurts more than drinking (seemingly), and that is addiction.

The ONLY way to break out of that trap is YOUR FORCE OF WILL. The world will not stop you from drinking, the world will aid and abet your self destruction, and profit from it. So no matter where it started, as the drinker you get all the blame for being addicted, and all the torture from it.

Because I've been an alcoholic, I now abstain 100%. My brain is like a necktie, and alcohol is like the serpentine belt. If I open the hood, the tie MUST come off, I would be fool to think it was safe for me. Yes, I could get away with it more than once, but sooner or later it would pull me in, and I would not even care. That scares the hell out of me.

So to me, alcoholism is a family tradition, my ethnic background gave me a liver fit for drink, my old life gave me cause to drink. However, my new life makes me refuse to go backwards. I'm sober long enough to see the value of sobreity. Like leaving a blinding fog, you have to pick a direction and move relentlessly until you can see again, going on faith, knowing its better to suffer while trying to quit, than to continue happily in your own vomit.

[riverfever]

Good for you Drip and your family. Thanks.

[Beej]

Christ, I typed out a major thesis on this topic and then friggin deleted it accidentally. What a pain.

Anyone who wants thoughts on this from a therapist, feel free to PM me...

[RockTracXJ]

My grandpa was an alcoholic. One day all his grown kids and wife sat him down for an intervention. He said he wasn't an alcoholic and that they were all crazy. I think there is a choice aspect to it, but it is also a disease.

[boise49ers]

Having been through it myself, I think it is easier for some people to quit and that genetics play into it. If you look at the American Indian, for the most part their body can still not handle the large consumption of alcohol. Why, because it wasn't introduced into their culture thousands of years ago as it was with most other ethnic groups. Some other groups handle booze great with out any bad effects for the most part, and others just the opposite. They say in some cases it may skip generations which it did with my fathers side of the family. His Grand father was an achoholic and I'm very convinced I was on my way to be one if I wasn't already. I drank a 12 pack almost every day and more on the weekend. After my kids watched me get slammed on a Sheriff car 15 years ago I decided I wasn't going to have them grow up remembering me that way. I went cold turkey from that point on and haven't slipped up since.Lucky they were young and don't remember any of it. Quitting is hard for a lot of people and it was for me also, but I used my family as my reason to give it up. When I drank though I could not stop until I was good and drunk. No in between. Everyone from my Dads side of the family said my great grand father was exactly the same way. He never did give it up though.
Life has totally changed since I quit and to this day I think it was the most important disicions I ever made. So it is also a disicion. There is a lot of different variations and degrees involved. It isn't pretty and it is real easy to say someone should just quit unless you have worn their shoes and lived their lives you shouldn't judge and think it is just bad choices they make. Not to say if they break the law and especially if they hurt some one they shouldn't pay the price. If they screw up make them pay as you would any one else. I spent a lot of time in the hooscow behind it and those experiances also played into my reasons for quitting.
JMO !

[aroncull]

X = straight edge...
I Have not had a drink since 1992 I was 20 years old.
Done my fair share of just about everything since [Rave promoter in the 90's] but am clean now, no weed, no drinking, no nuthin.. well except coffee. It is a drug, but i dont always drink it.

I believe that alcholism is a disease of the mind. I also think it is really "Addictivism", meaning that alot of the same behavior that is considered standard alcholic, is also the same for Crack heads. Its just that the physical is way different because of the true chemical addtiction with crack. Weed, Pills, Cigarettes, Sex, Porn, Gaming, Gambling, Shopping, Internet, the list goes on of things that are addictive and have the "MO" of alchoholism just with out the booze. It is just the tool. Pic your poison litterally.
It could also be calorie counting, biking, Yoga, Dancing, Kung Fu or Boxing, Working Out. bieng addicted istn always bad but still some of the same addictive traits follow through.
Addictiveness is like a switch. Mine is currently on the Jeep mode, some times its the Comics Mode or Computer mode or Games mode....

When it is destructive to you and others because of your addiction or Mind Disease is when it is a problem that needs to be dealt with somehow.

recently a study was done.
1. physical addictive personality types.
chemically addicted.
2. behavioral addictive types.
addicted to the action of or the mental trip of getting it and bieng around your drug or alchohol "family"

then there are those people who have a double wammy of both the physical and the behavioral addictiveness.

I have been clean for a couple of years now [Bob Marly sic]
and like i said before I stopped drinking before i was even legally able to.. naturally that didnt stop me. I was a binge drinker and a total alcholic as was my fully Irish family on paternal and maternal sides so genetically i was already coming from an addictive family.. or maybe they would say alchoholic but you see to me its addiction, not the tool that is the disease.

All in all i would say the one drug or vise I had that was the worst mostly because it was so passive in its destruction, was cigarettes.. and let me tell you that was the least potent of the bunch I played with yet the worst in so many ways.....
I quit that almost 7 years ago.

Aaron

[BOB]

I just want to add another comment.
Addiction is not a lack of will.
for addictive people, their WILL will only last a short time.
recovering addicts must prepare for highs and lows in their life.
that is the time our WILLS are challenged most.
again, that is why we have depend on support groups.
support groups are filled with the same people you sat next to
in a bar. so, you should feel right at home.
They have been through the exact same struggles
you are going through. They know what to watch for
to help you protect your sobriety.
They also welcome family or friends of addicts.
they can discuss with you how to best handle your addict friend or family member.
I am not a spokeperson for AA. I am simply sharing what has
helped me get to 18 years clean and sober.

...BOB

[ladywolf]

When you see someone DIE from detox, come talk to me - Enough said.


my uncle almost died from detox the man has been an alcoholic for so long, plus he's got cancer.

he's 6'5 and weighs a grand total of 125 lbs with clothes, backbrace, cane, and shoes on. shows you exactly how badly alcohol will erode your body.

[JeepFreak21]

I definitley think it's a choice, but my mom's an alcohalic and still I drink (and not because I like the taste), but I'm very careful not to ever drink when I'm stressed or in a bad mood. Better safe than sorry.
Billy

[imma honky]

While I understand and empathize with those who have dealt with alcoholism theirself or that of family members. I still only see it as a choice with an addiction, not a disease.

[JeepFreak21]

It is not a persons lack of will or desire. They are not weak.
Mentally, that person believes they will die without
their drink, crack, food, pain pills.
It creates strong sensations of fear, depression, anxiety.
...BOB

No matter how many times I hear that, I simply cannot understand it.
Billy

[boise49ers]

I have been sober for 15 years and never went to a support group or for that matter required too. That is why I said there are many variations and degrees of the addiction. If some one has never had the addiction then they can not and will not ever understand how strong it is. I have also gave up all the other crap that went with it. Drugs, cigarettes, and just plain poisons. Now I have a sugar dependancy:confused1 Kidding of course , but I do eat to much of it.
I drank and used the chemicals for over 20 years so it isn't like I just sampled it.
I think the hardest to give up out of all of them was cigarettes. Probably because we are subjected to others everywhere we go. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to now.

[rock rash]

nurture vs nature...


i think there is a genetic predisposition to it, but environmental factors also affect it

[riverfever]

nurture vs nature...


i think there is a genetic predisposition to it, but environmental factors also affect it

Oh what do you know? You're all hopped up on Vicodin anyway. :)

Feeling any better?

[Fergie]

Alcoholism is a term only used by AA.

The APA and the DSM IV TR consider this "alcohol dependency/alcohol abuse."

There is no diagnosis for alcoholism.

People have genetic dispositions for addictions, however, it is learned behaviours that teach people to indulge in things such as too much food, alcohol, or drugs.

Fergie

PS- Hi Beej.

[rock rash]

Oh what do you know? You're all hopped up on Vicodin anyway. :)

Feeling any better?feelin much better! :D

dont worry, your time will come! :D

[RandyD71]

alcohol detox???
Yeah, alcohol detox. First you will need to find a really heavy drinker and by heavy drinker I don't mean a 3-4 beer a day guy. We are talking about a fifth of licquor a day drinker. Now if you can make them stop drinking after a couple of days without alcohol they will start to detox. It is their body getting rid of all of the impurities from the alcohol. They will feel like crap ( headache, neausea, and the shakes). I've seen it a couple of times and it may take a few days to pass. Only other cure is a drink. Never ending cycle that way though.

[kennzz05]

suprised noone answered imma, yes people do die from alcohol detox if they are that bad off to go cold turkey for them is a death sentence Its been said that alcohol is the worst drug to detox from way worse than heroin

[Gil BullyKatz]

I am alcoholic. in recovery. 18 years.
no alcohol, no drugs. so far, so good.
IMO alcohol is a disease.
certain genetic genes predisposes some people
to uncontrollable, addictive behavior.
Some with alcohol, some with crack.
some are gamblers, others have addictive eating disorders.
It boils down to mental health issues.
It is not a persons lack of will or desire. They are not weak.
Mentally, that person believes they will die without
their drink, crack, food, pain pills.
It creates strong sensations of fear, depression, anxiety.
It is baffling. nobody knows the answer.
that is why they have support groups.
what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another.
what works for me today, may not help me tomorrow.
like some diseases, there is no cure.

...BOB

Agreed...

Altho I can't say that I fully believe it's "genetic"...

Some people are just born with uncontrollable, addictive behavior without any hereditary input.

My experience at least.

[riverfever]

dont worry, your time will come! :D

You sir, are a bastard!!

A mere 10 days from now and I will have vice grips in my mouth. Can't wait.

I'm hoping my guy wont care if a I listen to the Ipod while it's going on. I realize I'll be out but I was planning on making a 3-4 hour playlist of Big Head Todd so I can wake from my stuper and at least hear something that I find to be marvelous. I loves me some BHTM.

[imma honky]

Yeah, alcohol detox. First you will need to find a really heavy drinker and by heavy drinker I don't mean a 3-4 beer a day guy. We are talking about a fifth of licquor a day drinker. Now if you can make them stop drinking after a couple of days without alcohol they will start to detox. It is their body getting rid of all of the impurities from the alcohol. They will feel like crap ( headache, neausea, and the shakes). I've seen it a couple of times and it may take a few days to pass. Only other cure is a drink. Never ending cycle that way though.
That's most of my uncles.
and I work with a guy who drank a 5th daily. Until he flipped his car. Hasn't had a drop since (that was 3 weeks ago). He never complained about any of those.
BUT, those symptoms are for pansies anyways. I go through that kinda crap yearly. (i suffer from migranes, migranes cause neausea, and I get the shakes if I don't eat).
No sympathy here.