Cylinder Washout??

[parkeruph]

93 XJ 4.0 inline 6, 4x4 part time, Auto tranny,

Has anyone had a cyl washout problem with any eng and know why they occur and under what conditons they occur?
My first encounter with this was during servere cold weather, runing good when shut off, THEN no start.
The next time this happened it turned out to be a bad pickup coil in the dizzy, not cyl washout.
Now it has happened again at wal-marts sat.
good at shut off and 1/2 hr later no start.
Battery is excellent and it cranked over like no spark plugs were in it, ie; NO COMPRESSION.
It's too cold outside now to do any checking or testing but will post when I get the testing done about weds or thurs when temps are on the warmer side.
Fortunately I had a stowmaster towbar and my 00 jeep to drag it home.
All input on cyl washout will be appreciated.
I tried Search and didn't come up with much.
Thanks! Wayne

[bcmaxx]

I don't know why, but whenever I'm chained up and driving in deep snow I have something similar happen after I shut it off. Long cranking and when It does start its like its runing on four cylinders. Always clears up after a minute or two of idle. Probably just a worn engine

[fspell220]

A washout occurs when a fuel injector sticks in the open position and constantly sprays fuel into the combustion chamber, thus removing all of the oil. This can be very harmful if not fixed immediately due to the fact that a no oil condition in the cylinder with severely wear it and the piston rings. I would start by doing a compression test on all cylinders and the one with the lowest pressure is most likely to be the culprit. You can also use a length of hose while the engine is running and listen to each fuel injector. All of them should make a ticking sound. If not then that means it's stuck either open or closed, in your case open.

[Slo-Sho]

It cranks over like it has no compression you say? How about the bendix on the starter? Does it engage the flexplate?

[xjbubba]

Had similar symptoms years ago with my Pontiac, GTO. Engine was running fine, shut down for the week-end, but would not start the next time tried. Symptom was turns over very rapidly, as if all spark plugs had been removed.
Problem was a loose timing chain that had jumped a couple of teeth. Fortunately, valves didn't hit pistons. Had a similar problem with the diesel in my sailboat: cam gear shattered, engine turned over rapidly, but know restart. Unfortunately, in that case, the pistons did hit a couple a valves, badly bending the push rods.
Check compression, and if low in all cylinders, bring number 1 cylindar to TDC and insure both valves for number 1 are closed.

[parkeruph]

The engine is turning over fine, starter is engaging completely.
The 1st time it happened all cylinder read 0 on compression and all spark plugs were firing.
Mechanic checked the injectors, fuel pressure and regulator. All were fine. I have not done the compression test yet for this incident.
The compression test for the first time it did it suggested that all injectors were stuck open thus washing down all of the cyls. BUT it was running fine before I shut it off.
AND all injectors and regulator checked ok and like I said earlier the fuel pump (near new) checked ok.
Strange how it's happening to all cyls if it's an injector thing, all going bad at the same time. Would the fuel regulator cause somthing like that and still check good?
122,000 on the clock.
That may or may not be what's wrong this time. I'll find out when I do the compression test.
Cost me big bucks to find the simple inexpensive temporary cure for the problem. THanks for all the input. I will post on this thread when I find the true problem and the CURE!

[parkeruph]

The mechanic replaced the timing gear and chain parts plus water pump (it was showing sign of leakage) but the timing parts were ok but I told him to replace them while he had it open.
he was so sure that was the problem that he already had the parts ordered and on hand. It was a head scratcher even after the compression test.
He NOR I, never heard of Cylinder Washout until we talked to the Dealer Mechanic. He told us how to cure simple and cheap.
Makes me wonder if I had taken it to the dealer in the first place, would I have gotten off so cheap before the first mechanic did exploratory surgery. I wonder??

[Slo-Sho]

The offending problem is still unclear and very vague at best. You are stating that all 6 fuel injectors are constantly spraying?

[parkeruph]

I'm saying if all cyl's were reading 0 and as suggested above that a stuck open injector would

cause cyl washout (and I agree that would cause cyl washout) BUT, all cyl's reading 0 would be

indictative of all 6 injectors being stuck open.
How could that happen when the injectors and

regulator checked ok. After we did the cure and searched for a reason why it happened, NOTHING

could be found wrong. Oil pressure was sufficient, new oil. Pennzoil 10w-40, new filter.

The mechanic suggested that I was a Granny driver and never got the RPM's up enough to keep the cylinder wall coated with oil.

He's right, I rarely ever get on the throttle heavy. It's an automatic tranny and shifts normally as it should.

Does anyone agree with his answer as to why the problem occured the 1st time?

I will be happy to answer any question you have to help come to a conclussion. It's a 93 XJ 4.0I
with 122,000 plus miles.

This is happening when the weather is COLD, single digits and low teens.

I'm planning to do the compression today 1/23/07 Maybe, I'm 70 yrs old and don't feel chirpy all the time.

plus I'm allergic to the cold and break out with hives, itching like mad, can't scratch fast enough.

NOT looking for sympathy just a answer to prevent this from happening. Thanks for all the help!

[old_man]

The next time it happens, pull the plugs and squirt a small amount of oil in the cylinder. That will reseal the rings, give you back your compression, and allow you to start. Personally, I think the problem is more of a stuck ring issue. Even with dry walls and rings on a motor that has less than 200k miles, you should have significant enough compression to allow it to start.

I would run a can of BG44K through the fuel It will clean the injectors and remove carbon deposits. Don't even mess with any of the cheap cleaners, they are worthless.

A short term thing is to get some lube in the cylinders. I would probably put 4 oz of ATF in the gas. It is high detergent and will clean as well as add a touch of lube.

Keep me posted on how this works out. I'm not that far and could swing by and take a look if need be.

You know the definition of getting old don't you.......its when half of what you got doesn't work and the rest hurts.

[fspell220]

I agree with the old man. He made a good point about the stuck piston rings. If you are experiencing no compression in all of the cylinders then I would take the valve cover off and see if any oil is squirting up there. There's a good possibility that your oil pump my have failed. Also do the oil squirt in the cylinder method as old man states. If you can get it to run then maybe you might be able to free the piston rings up. But if there's no oil squirting under the valve cover then I wouldn't recommend running too long. Maybe a min. or two.

[Matthew Currie]

The mechanic suggested that I was a Granny driver and never got the RPM's up enough to keep the cylinder wall coated with oil.



That sounds like a BS answer to me. Does he think the cylinders are not oiled at idle? This is not a splash lubricated engine.

I have to ask who did the all zeroes compression reading. The first thing I'd do if it came up all zeroes is assume that the gauge is broken. I once bought for parts an XJ whose engine had been essentially destroyed by loss of oil. All the cylinders were so worn and scored that it would not start at all. You could see the visible fuel vapor pumping out of the valve cover with the cap off. When I did a blowdown test through a spark plug hole it literally blew the dipstick out! Even so, it read about 60 pounds compression on all cylinders. Zero compression is hard to believe, especially on all six. If it really is happening, I'd expect the engine to run very poorly if it runs at all, and to smoke like crazy if it ever does start.

[parkeruph]

Hey old_man, you're right about the difinition of old, True, True, True. My address is Hudson

but I'm actually 1 mile east of Lochbuie on RD 4, The first time it happened, We did the BG44K

and squirting 10w40 into the cylinders and retested the compression with the same tester

and compression started coming up gradually. We did the squirting about 3 times before the

compression got up to par. Put the plugs back in and it fired right up.

WHOLE NEW BALL GAME NOW, WAS NOT WASHOUT.

Went out and pulled the wire off # 1 and did the phillips screwdriver thing to near ground while

my wife cranked the eng over and got a good arc and the darn thing started right up on 5 cyl's

and I might add it sounded pretty darn good on 5. I had wife shut it off and I replaced the

plug wire. I restarted it just fine and let it idle for a minute then throttled it up to about

3 grand then back to idle and back to 3000 again and right at the peak of 3000 it died. Would not
restart. So, I do the screw driver thing again and NO ARC, NO fire going to the plugs.
What are we talking about now? CPS and how can I test it or might it be a connection somewhere?

[old_man]

You might be looking at a CPS issue, but first unplug and replug the CPS connector a couple of times. They tend to corrode. Before you go and buy one, I have a couple of spares from different rigs that I can give you to troubleshoot and if it fixes the problem you can either keep it or go get a new one if that is your preference.

[parkeruph]

Thanks Old_man, I will check it out tomorrow, It got to 32° here today and no longer than I was out there, I came back in scratching. I have a big barn to put it in but barn is too big to heat. 40'x60' with 12' overhead door. The door is on the west end and an overhead radiant propane 20' long U-shaped heater on the east end that will burn you out on the east end and do nothing for the west end. LOL

[old_man]

Your barn sounds like what I am hoping to build. We are going to sell our big house in town and build a small 3000 sq foot ranch with a 60x100 shop out back.

[parkeruph]

Old_Man, Tom, I tried starting it about 2pm and no start, I disconnected the CPS and made an

attempt to scrap the pins gently and put the connector together. Tried to start it again but

no start. Did not check the CPS with digital OHM meter yet. Haynes manual says there should be no
resistance between B and C pins and any other reading, I should replace the CPS. Do you agree?

If it was bad, could it be eratic working sometimes and sometimes not and would that alone
cause no fire through the coil and to the plugs?
Could a Coil act that way? I'll test it and the

pickup coil also even tho it's new, don't know if it could be eratic causing the issue.

I will do the OHM meter test tomorrow.
And I will send you a private message about the

DO's and Don't's about barn Building. Thanks for the offer on the CPS, If I need one I will be

happy to buy one of yours. Thanks!

[old_man]

I have a bunch of CPS's I have scrounged over the years and you can just have one. Heck people are always giving me parts since they know I will find good homes for them.

[Blaine B.]

The mechanic suggested that I was a Granny driver and never got the RPM's up enough to keep the cylinder wall coated with oil.

That's a bunch of bull crap.

[Flyfisher]

I'm no expert..but have to weigh in on the "wash down" problem. I'm a an engineer...worked my way through college working at a gas station in Montana. Rule of thumb for us...when it's below zero and someone calls for a jump...we first ask if they've tried jumping the car. If so, we tell them we'll town it in...change the oil...then it'll start. The theory is that cold temp turning with gas being supplied (at normal rates) leaves the cylinder walls unable to achieve compression.

I think the issue is more related to temperature than anything else. Perhaps exacerbated by something else (tired, warn, engine, etc.). My XJ has 265,000 miles...original engine. Starts OK in below zero temps...but does take longer than usual.

If yours hasn't been taken care of nicely and faithfully, compression could well be an issue...expecially in cold temps. At cold temps...when cylinder wash down may be an issue, it is made worst by wear. Gas also enters the oil system and further prevents compression.

Just my 2-cents worth.

[parkeruph]

OK, I tested the CPS according to the Haynes Manual, and found that according to their test procedures and readings of resistance, my CPS is bad. I will know if that is the only issue to prevent it from starting hopefully by monday 01/29/07. I'll post back results then.

[parkeruph]

The CPS I acquired from Old_Man turned out to be the wrong one, Maybe I will have the correct one weds night 01/31/07 and I will post back after it's installed which may not get installed until the weekend.

[parkeruph]

OK, got the CPS installed, removed the neg cable on the battery and replaced the cable clamp that
broke and she fired right up, NO-MORE issues, left it run for 1/2 hr then pushed the rpm's to

2 grand several times and things still Ok. If anything goes wrong the next time I put a few

miles on it, I'll post back. A special thanks to Old_Man and all the rest of you guys who

responded to cylinder washout. That's exactly what it acted like compared to my first washout.

Thanks again Guys.

[Blaine B.]

Glad to hear it works.

Disconnecting the battery and turning the key to START for a few seconds will ensure any power in the PCM is drained....it's more assuring than only removing the battery cables :)

[parkeruph]

I remember reading that Blaine, BUT, I forgot to turn the switch on, Damn, hope it doesn't screw something else up.

[Blaine B.]

Shouldn't cause a problem at all!

[parkeruph]

Thanks for the assurance Blaine, I'll sleep better tonight. I just have to remember the next time I change a sensor.

[Blaine B.]

Yep, I've always just disconnected the battery as well. I heard that recommendation to disconnect the battery + turn the key to start for a few seconds a month or so ago. It's just extra reassurance to make sure nothing is left in the PCM. Of course it relearns anyway. You can do as little as pullinga the fuse for the PCM.....but it's more assuring to disconnect the entire battery....and then even more assuring to turn the key to start :)

I don't think theres anything beyond that that will ensure your assurance.

[parkeruph]

Info that's good to know, Thanks Blaine!
~~Wayne~~