Full width axle +/-'s

[CW]

Hey I have given up my search for an xj 44 and will probably end up with waggy 44's front and rear. But while I'm swaping axles I might as well consider all of my options. What are the advantages and disadvantages to going with full width axles? This is a DD but I live in Idaho so I could get away with wider axles on the street. I just want to know what you guys think.

[Beezil]

here is just one of many options, since its the direction I am going and can't talk about it...

granted I cannot say much on actually RUNNING these certain axles, how they function on jackstands is the limit of my experience but.....

I can comment on axle width!

I have an hp 44 front and ff60 rear from a 79 f250.....

I was concerned about width too, and here's what I did...

I ran a 17" rim that allowed me to swallow the big drums and dual piston calipers, and ran an offset of 5" which brings my outside trackwidth to 77"......not bad......almost makes chopping axle long sides seem unecessary.....

[vintagespeed]

Beez has it right, wide axles + deep backspacing = a liveable combination.

1. Full width axles are easier to find parts for if/when you break.
2. Someone on the trail is more likely to have a part that will work.
3. You get more articulation at the end of the axle with a wider axle.
4. Wider axles get your more chicks, plain & simple.

[Pete M]

Fullsize axles kick major butt! My personal favorite reason is that the pivot point of the front tires moves out away from the body. Big tires can now go from lock to lock with less chance (or none at all, depending on how big you go) of rubbing on the body. Problem is that the tires will probably not stuff in the stock fenders anymore. Everything has tradeoffs. Eventually I'll be adding some big aftermarket flares to compensate and compromise. Here's some shots of my truck with 78 Ford 1/2 ton axles:
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL91/512063/707562/27115715.jpg
With the 33x12.5 tires and cheap 15x8" rims with 4" of backspacing the overall width is just shy of 80 inches
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL91/512063/707562/27115630.jpg
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL91/512063/707562/27115662.jpg
Jeep on!
--Pete

[CW]

OK, I think I'm going to go with this. I have TJ flares and they are wider than xj flares so I should be ok. What axles would you guys recomend? Are the late 70's F-series the way to go? I thought I remember reading that the WT full size cherokee has the same spring perches in the rear. Also does anyone have pics of there full width xj flexed up?

[Pete M]

What you need depends on what you're going to do with it (and also what you can find in the 'yards). What are you doing for the front suspension? How much lift do you want? What size tires?
Jeep on!
--Pete

[CW]

I am sitting at 5.5" of lift right now and plan to run 35's. the front will stay coils and long arms. Is it possible to still use my longarm setup with the radius arm mounts on a ford front end?

[FarmerMatt]

It all depends on what trails you normally run. On tight technical trails the width can hurt you big time. Instead of picking a line, lots of times you're force to place the tires where they'll fit. Like the others said, offset wheels will help, but your already vulnerable lock out hubs will stick even further out there ready to kiss rocks. The added width does add stability on off camber stuff. It's all a compromise.

Matt

[Beezil]

forgot to add that, but farmer has a point.....my hubs come within an inch of the plane of the outside bead......its a rock catcher to be sure......I don't mind beating hubs up, but I'm thinkin if i was able to beat my hubs up when they were recessed more, i'll frikin nail them now!

doesn't goat run some kinda protector plate to help that?

[CW]

The stuff I wheel is pretty narrow but most of the time you don't get to choose a line, you just try to stay out of the ruts and off the trees. I've only smashed one wheel against a rock so far and I guess it would have hit a hub. A protector for the hub would probably be a good idea.

[Pete M]

I guess I'm just lucky that there aren't a whole lotta rocks here in Michigan (TONS of logs and other forest-type obstacles though), cause I've never really given any thought to smashing my hubs. Personally, that's pretty low on my priorities list for choosing axles. There are sooo many other factors involved.
If you want to use your current longarm system, then I don't advise getting Ford axles with the cast-on radius arm mounts. They'd be a real pain to grind off. Supposedly the pre-78 Ford truck axles have welded-on mounts that would be far easier to remove. Waggy axles are also pretty clean with their leaf pads, but are low-pinion (if that matters to you). Most of the F-250 axles should have 4.10 gears if that's what you wanted to run. Do you have a budget in mind for this? I also recommend pricing some of the custom-built axles too (it doesn't hurt to ask). You can get them already all set-up for your truck with brackets and everything. Bolt-on can be especially tempting, depending on your fabbing skills and pocketbook.
Jeep on!
--Pete

[CW]

I did some searching and from what I could tell the Wide track full sized cherokees and the j series trucks have front and rear d44's, and the rear is a direct bolt on. The low pinion front d44 should still be much stronger than the d30, plus I can get deeper gears for it. My fab skills aren't as good as I wish they were but they will get better because my pocket book is small. (A custom made axle is way too much.) What is the best source for front axle bracketry? Should I remove the stock hardware from the d30 or is it worth it to go with RE.

[vintagespeed]

The term "full width" is relative. I ran a full-width 1/2 ton D44 which was 64" wms to wms (flex pic), my new 3/4 ton D44 front is 67" wms to wms and the full floating 14 bolt is 69" wms to wms. I would've stuffed into the flares if I had flares with the 64" D44 and 4.25" b/s on the wheels. The new wheels are 5.38 b/s in the second pic.

http://www.rockxj.com/images/moneyshot.jpg

http://www.rockxj.com/images/rear.jpg

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by CW.
The stuff I wheel is pretty narrow but most of the time you don't get to choose a line, you just try to stay out of the ruts and off the trees. I've only smashed one wheel against a rock so far and I guess it would have hit a hub. A protector for the hub would probably be a good idea.

They laugh at me when I used the high strength alloy wheel covers to stop rock rash on my lockouts... Anybody got the pic?

[Beezil]

those were hubcaps! on a pink jeep!

OF COURSE WE'RE GONNA LAUGH!

[JnJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
those were hubcaps! on a pink jeep!

OF COURSE WE'RE GONNA LAUGH!

Hahahaha:D

[Fore Wheeler]

here's mine with a full width dana 44 from a 78 F 150, I used the ford radius arms (longer than stock), these are 10" wide wheels with 3.75" BS, I now am using the same BS but went with a 8" wheel so it is narrower than this pic, but not by much, tires in this pic are 36x12.5 and I now have 38x12.5.

Two things to note with this pic, one the axle in now centered and the coils really aren't on that much of an angle, they are angled but not nearly as much as what it looks like.

I don't think I'm too wide, I like the stability of the wider axles for sure. I was thinking last night about my hubs being close to the outside of the wheel face, I might have to come up with something. Would a hub cap from a Vista Cruser work??


http://www.michiganjeepers.com/photopost/data/500/815frontxj-med.jpg

[CW]

hey, I went to the Pull and Save to see what they had in the yard as far as axle donors. They had a few 77-80 f250's and quite a few waggies, cherokees, and J trucks of both the NT and WT variety. I am leaning toward the jeep family just because there is less fabrication needed, because the rearend is a bolt on. How does the model 20 rear compare to the d44 rear as far a strength, available gearing, parts availability, and parts cost? If I run into problems with my hubs seeing abuse Ill beef up some old hubcaps with 3/4 plate just for fun.

[Fore Wheeler]

the 20 is JUNK, the tubes are weak, the 2 piece axles are junk, it does have a big ring gear tho.

Don't get one.

[M. Lake]

The 20 ot of an old CJ is the weak tubed, 2 peice axle (junk) but the 20 out of an old waggy is a 1 peice axle with stronger tubes. From what I understand, the waggy 20 is as close to the 44 as you can get. Stay away from the CJ 20. I believe that the 20 was used in some "J" trucks, but not sure.

[Fore Wheeler]

Originally posted by M. Lake
The 20 ot of an old CJ is the weak tubed, 2 peice axle (junk) but the 20 out of an old waggy is a 1 peice axle with stronger tubes. From what I understand, the waggy 20 is as close to the 44 as you can get. Stay away from the CJ 20. I believe that the 20 was used in some "J" trucks, but not sure.


my bad, I thought it was all 20's

[JnJ]

The 20 out of a waggy is a close = to the 44. I have a waggy 44 front and 20 rear. The only real drawback I see to the waggy 20 is the gearing, the lowest you can go is 4.88s (I did). Here is what I did with mine:
http://members.tripod.com/~Jeep_n_John/redspage.htm

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Beezil
those were hubcaps! on a pink jeep!

OF COURSE WE'RE GONNA LAUGH!


Like I said.... High strength alloy lockout protection disguised as hubcaps. No matter haw many times I tell you... Canyon Copper....
:rolleyes:

:D :D :D

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Fore Wheeler
the 20 is JUNK, the tubes are weak, the 2 piece axles are junk, it does have a big ring gear tho.

Don't get one.

I disagree. Swap to one piece axles, and gusset the rear. You can't beat the ring gear size for the price. The only concern here is DO NOT turn the pinion up to compensate for lift. It's a poor design and won't lubricate well. Don't ask me how I know, but I have seen pieces of a spider gear chew their way out of the rear cover.

[SewerBoss]

Have you guys thought about running drive flanges instead of lockouts. They don't stick out as much, and are nearly indestructable. You won't feel them on the road with big tires anyway. I ran them in my old CJ with a 44 and they worked great. I'm not running them in my 60. Something to think about.
Nate

[SewerBoss]

Edit that: I'm NOW running them in my 60. Even with a detroit in front, you don't feel the locker in 2wd.
Nate

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by STRYKER
I disagree. Swap to one piece axles, and gusset the rear. You can't beat the ring gear size for the price. The only concern here is DO NOT turn the pinion up to compensate for lift. It's a poor design and won't lubricate well. Don't ask me how I know, but I have seen pieces of a spider gear chew their way out of the rear cover.

Common now, my 14 bolt 10.5" ring gear makes my D44 ring gear look like a toy. If you're talking about beef for the buck, NOTHING beats a 14 bolt! ;)

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
Common now, my 14 bolt 10.5" ring gear makes my D44 ring gear look like a toy. If you're talking about beef for the buck, NOTHING beats a 14 bolt! ;)

I can't seem to find an argument with that. But the 14 bolt/Dana 60/Dana 70 units I've seen are in the $500-600 range. AMC 20?....I'll buy one for $75, treat myself to $250 worth of one-piece axles and call it good. Now, if I find a Dana 70/Corp. 14 for 300 bones, I'd snag it and never look back.

[JeepFreak21]

Originally posted by STRYKER
I can't seem to find an argument with that. But the 14 bolt/Dana 60/Dana 70 units I've seen are in the $500-600 range. AMC 20?....I'll buy one for $75, treat myself to $250 worth of one-piece axles and call it good. Now, if I find a Dana 70/Corp. 14 for 300 bones, I'd snag it and never look back.

I got my rear D60 from a Pick-n-Pull over here for $100... and since you come from the land of $800 HP front D60s (ie. The East Coast), I don't see why you couldn't find one that's less than $300

[CW]

All truck axles are $86 at the pull and save in Spokane, thats why I can even consider new axles with my budget. I just don't think I need a d60 or 14 bolt rear to run 35's. A d44 should be able to take the abuse right? Has anybody broken a D44 with 35's, locker, 4.88's and alloy shafts? [EDIT: Im sure someone has but what were they doing to there jeep to do it?]

[ashmanjeepxj]

Im full width, 69in WMS dana 60 front, with 4.5in BS ish 16.5X8in rims. I have less then 1in of tire in my wells, so 11.5+ inches out side.

When I took this first pic, my wife came out and was laughing... Thats so wide.....:D

Its 3.5in or so taller now, that was a test of stock Xj rear leafs on the front.

have fun.

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/download.php?id=547 http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/download.php?id=549

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by JeepFreak21
I got my rear D60 from a Pick-n-Pull over here for $100...

:eek: :eek: :eek:

What...oh what.... am I doing wrong over here????

[95steel]

have less than 500 in my 14 bolt so far, 4.88s detroit, and disc brakes mounts. Plan on spending another 150-200 to finish it. I ground off the lower lip that hangs down. Don't remember the exact #s but I am with in .75 of a fancy 60 measuring from the center of the axle to the bottom lip of the housing. Loosing the drums saves a metric ton off of the 14 bolts.

The amc20 off the waggy's and J10's are actually a great axle. As stated the gearing is limited, but they are have none of the short falls the cj amc20. They are actually marginally stronger than a stock 44. You can pick them up for next to nothing, find a guy upgrading his cj to a 44 or 9 inch and buy the gears and locker used and bolt them in. The only draw back is the axle shafts are a little harder to find if you break one.

[4ward]

My rear 60 was free. I've shaved it to give me the same clearance as a 44, built my own disc brake brackets and am doing something that requires a bridge on it now.

There's a few reasons that I don't like 14 bolts.

1- lowest gearing is 5.13

2- heavier than the 60

3- even after shaving it's still a plow unless you're running 38's+

The reason I like the 14 bolt- $380 detroit.

I don't care what part of the country you're in, you shouldn't pay more than $150 for a rear 60.

[JnJ]

95Steel, you got the 14 bolt with 4.88 gears and a DETROIT and your under $500? I thought the detroit was about $500 by it's self?

BTW, my local yard sells all axles for $200, no matter what it is.

[vintagespeed]

My 14B was $75 used. I put a $375 Detroit, $180 5.13s, $75 used 1/2 ton rotors/calipers & a spare set of shafts.........like I'll ever need those....:rolleyes:

[norcalxj]

i have never heard of someone paying more than $200 for a stock 14b. i got mine for $100 and used the original brakes, welded the spiders, and bought gears and install kit for $300 and installed them myself. so im about $400 into my rear, and with the bottom lip shaved and bald 38's i have 1" more clearence then my friend with 35's and a 8.8.

[BrianGibson]

alright so who has a good write up on the subject
one of those easy to follow ones that everyone loves

[CRASH]

How do you guys get high steer arms on the front 44 with 5 inch BS wheels?

Mine come close with 15x9's with 3.75 BS.

CRASH

[Beezil]

17" rims, boss.

[CRASH]

Doesn't a GM 1-ton TRE still come darned close? I know that the Hummer rim guys have trouble doing high steer because of the deep BS on those units, and they are 16.5".

Intereseting that you clear OK.

CRASH

[95steel]

I picked up the 14 blt for 25 bucks, detroit for 250, gears were 50 bucks, traded the original brakes for an instal kit (lucky), disc brakes were free (case of miller light) from a budy switching to 6 lug. Don't remember what I paid for the brake lines.

14 bolts are great axles. Very easy to shave, not that heavy once you get rid of the drums, can be switched from 67 wms to 63 wms by changing the hubs, and most importantly they are CHEAP and strong.

[CW]

I never even thought about the problems with highsteer and deep backspaced rims. Oh well, I guess everything is a trade off, I wish I had enough $$ for 17" wheels and tires. Did any chevy trucks come with factory 17x8 or 16.5x8 wheels or does anyone make a cheap steal 17" wheel?

[CRASH]

"Cheap" and "17 inch" do not appear next to each other very frequently.

Try Allied.

CRASH

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by CRASH
How do you guys get high steer arms on the front 44 with 5 inch BS wheels?

Mine come close with 15x9's with 3.75 BS.

CRASH

I've got some hi-steer arms from Tim Shaker (www.shakerbuilt.com), they needed some finishing work when I got them but otherwise they look ok. They are cut like a porkchop and clear the tires with inches to spare. I was a little worried myself but so far so good.

[CW]

Vintage, do you have any pics of your high steer setup? I really want to make it work without going to bigger rims. (Why does a tire for a 17" wheel cost more?, its less rubber.) If I can't make it work I guess I'll just keep replacing the tie rod every week. At least the junkyard only wants $4 for one.

[vintagespeed]

Here's some pics of my mocked-up steering. I just received the DOM today so it'll be together this weekend.

The steering arms are 3/4" and fit nice, they're totally flat which helps passenger side droop but not stuff, although with the 38's I only get 6" of up travel anyway. I'm sure you love my chrome pimp daddy 1" tie rod. ;)

http://www.rockxj.com/images/steer/d_arm_frt.jpg
http://www.rockxj.com/images/steer/d_arm_top.jpg http://www.rockxj.com/images/steer/steering.jpg

The arms are by www.shakerbuilt.com and he'll custom make them if you ask, they were $125 for the pair which is why I bought them.