Where to find Closed Pop Rivets

Anyone know of a source for closed steel pop rivets.

My local hardware store doesn't carry them and the only places I've seen them online only sells them by the thousands for hundreds of dollars minimum order.

Their for repairing rust holes in the floor of my '95 XJ, I've cut out the rust sections and I'm about to fashion the patch panels, but I can't find the best pop rivets to use to secure the panels in place.

Try MSC Direct, they have everything you can think of.

Nope, they only have aluminum rivets, and then only in 500ct.

I may have to use open ended steel and just fill them with sealer.

http://blindrivetsupply.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=closed

500/box for $19.61... $15 minimum order

Cheers

They also get used a lot in aviation - try Wicks Aircraft Supply or Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Co. Google both - I don't recall the URL's offhand, and the catalogues are in the other room...

The cater to kitbuilders and experimenters, so they should be able to do smaller quantities.

5-90

Thanks for the suggestions guys, BUT, all those sources only have ALUMINUM closed end pop rivets.

I would think its best to use steel rivets with steel to steel joints?

Any suggestion as too which is better? Steel Open End Pop Rivets filled with Sealer OR Aluminum Closed End Pop Rivets?

I've used a lot of aluminum on steel joins, and I think aluminum is quite close to iron/steel on the "table of galvanic action" (listing metals by how well they get along. I haven't seen a copy in a while, I should probably find another one, or see if it's in Machinery's Handbook[/I].)

Another wacky thought - check Eastwood. They've got a kit for making non-structural repairs without welds, and might have rivets like you're looking for in that as well (I haven't ordered one yet, but I plan to. Be nice to finally get rid of that damn sunroof... I don't have their URL handy, but a quick Google should find them for you.)

If it's going to be a join exposed to weather, and I can't weld it for some reason, I tend to feel better using aluminum or CRES rivets than plain ol' steel. I'm just cranky that way...

5-90

www.fastenal.com

worth a try

Not sure if these are exactly what you are looking for, but Mcmaster has closed-end sealing blind rivets in 18-8 SS on page 3157.

Thanks, McMaster was closest to what I was looking for, $12.48 for a box of 50 Stainless Steel Closed End Pop Rivets. A little more expensive than I hoped, but better than buying lots of thousands for hundreds of dollars. There weren't any plain steel closed end I've seen yet.

5-90, I hadn't even considered galvanic action, although thats a good point, I agree I wouldn't be too worried about some aluminum pop rivets in steel causing to much of a corrosion problem. I plan on painting several coats of paint overtop of the entire repair, and undercoat the underside.

My concern is strength and longevity, this is for 6 patch panels in the floor pan, ranging from 3"X2" to 14"X8" and a 22"X10" for the passenger side foot well. I was thinking using aluminum pop rivets between 2 sheets of relatively thin steel, the thin steel would act like a scissors on the softer aluminum, on the floor pan where I could expect some streching and flexing. I'm thinking after a couple of years the patches would come loose if I used aluminum instead of steel for the pop-rivets. (The pop-rivets will be the fastener holding the panel on, I'm not welding). I thought harder steel would be a smarter choice for a pop-rivet.

As well, a closed end rivet would be even smarter to seal out weather, although I have NAPA Auto SEAM Sealer that I plan on using liberally.

Am I overthinking this? Would the cheaper Aluminum Closed End Pop Rivet do just fine for holding down a patch panel over the years on the floor pan? Keep in mind 3 of these patch panels are moderate size, and 2 of those are in what appears to be a fairly stressed area, the back of the front seats where the crossbeams are.

I think the reason you don't find "closed, blind" rivets in plain mild steel is due to corrosion - if you want a closed-end rivet, you're trying to keep something IN or something OUT, and what's the point if you're open to rust?

However, for a floor pan, I'd look to get it welded rather than just leaving it to rivets. Rivets aren't the greatest thing to hold shear loads (ever seen a rivet sheared neatly in half?) and are used where shear loads are not anticipated, when a light hold is all that's needed, or when it is necessary to remove panels once in a while (for inspection/maintenance/repair.) Aircraft use them mainly because a string of rivets can be lighter than a weld, and it makes it easier to replace panels when the aerodynamic profile of the airframe is disturbed.

Since a floor pan on a unibody is structural, I'd really want to get the thing welded in, rather than just rivetting it in. If it was a roof, I'd say no problem - but there, you're just dealing with a "shear panel" that locates the top of the pillars and the roofline halo, and it doesn't bear much load. Besides, it's relatively flat. A floor pan isn't so much, and it serves to bolster most of the lower mounting points (engine, transmission, crossmembers, what-have-you,) and I'm not sure I'd want my 250# arse being held up by a dozen rivets anyhow, to be perfectly honest.

Now, I'd probably be more likely to consider it if I were to use SOLID rivets instead of "Pop" rivets - but solid rivets are a lot more work and tooling to install (and I think you'll find that most aircraft rivets are solids, rather than Pops, for good reason. A solid rivet is comparable to a light bolt in taking a shear load - mostly, because it's SOLID.)

When dealing with a stressed area, it's best to attach the patches in the manner that the original panels were stuck on - in this case, welded. Also, you are essentially correct in thinking that flexion over the years will loosen the repair - but that's going to be true with pretty much ANY rivet you want to use. That's just the nature of the beast.

Also, harder steel for "Pop" rivets may SEEM smarter, but it would end up being counter-productive. More work to expand the rivet, you see. Rivets do work harden slightly when they're Popped, but only slightly.

If you have access to Machinery's Handbook, there is a very good section on rivetted joins in there, and I highly suggest you read it if you're serious about rivetting ANYTHING. They'll go into what you should do (and why) and what you should NOT do (and why NOT.) MH may be a bit spendy - it usually runs about $90 - but it will pay for itself the first time you refer to it and the job you're doing DOES NOT fail!

5-90

5-90 said:

Aircraft use them mainly because a string of rivets can be lighter than a weld, and it makes it easier to replace panels when the aerodynamic profile of the airframe is disturbed.

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As well, I thought it was also to have an airframe that bends and flexs with the loads wihout workhardening as much. Eitherway, we both agree, an aircraft is put together with a lot more knowledge, engineering, hi-tech fasteners and quality than some guy with a pop rivet gun in his garage do his first patch repair.

I've done a little welding, and have a friend with a Mig Welder w/ Gas. I can't argue with your logic. Although my research on welding this up myself has lead me to believe that with the materials that I can find at a reasonable price and my welding experience, I'll be right on the cusp of being able to complete this job. I may attempt to weld in the panels, but if I just end up burning thru the practice pieces, then I'll have to resign myself to the pop-rivet repair, and the chance of having to redo the job in a few years down the road. The couple of body shops I've checked with still want hundreds to weld up what I would totally prep for them, not to mention no way to transport the vehicle without towing since its pulled apart enough not to be driveable.

I'm just not prepared to spend a lot to repair these floor holes, if I can't weld it up myself with the materials I have access too, then I'm just going to do the pop rivet thing.

rivetsinstock.com ? another one imperialinc.com

5-90 said:

Another wacky thought - check Eastwood. They've got a kit for making non-structural repairs without welds, and might have rivets like you're looking for in that as well (I haven't ordered one yet, but I plan to. Be nice to finally get rid of that damn sunroof... I don't have their URL handy, but a quick Google should find them for you.)

Click to expand...

Here's another thought - something I saw on Trucks! a couple of weeks back.

During their S-$10K project (budget S-10 buildup), they had to deal with some rotted cab corners (back by where the bed mounted). Instead of welding, they used some sort of adhesive instead and "glued" in a piece cut out of a patch panel. To mount the new piece, they cut away the rusted metal, and then used the adhesive to attach some small strips to create a surface to mount the filler piece to. The stuff they used had a one minute working time, but they mentioned that a variety of working/cure times were available. Once the strips were firmly in place, they glued in the piece from the patch panel. A little filler and sanding, and it looked like new.

I am afraid that I can't recall the name of the stuff (came in what looked like a standard caulk tube), but they claimed that it had similar bonding strength to welding. I don't know if I totally believe that, but for something like patching holes in the floor pan, it would probably work well enough.

Rob

there is a panel adhesive that DC recommends, if you do a "recall" search, I think it was in the NTSB site where I first saw it. Try www.ketone.com they may have it.
I don't know if I want to trust my floor staying together to a chemical, although if it is anything like the sealer?/adhesive? that I ran into when cutting out my rear (cargo) floor pan, damn that stuff was strong(could hold an elephant to the head of a needle). I hand to use my air chisel to get thru the stuff and still had a hard time.

3m makes panel adhesive also fusor is another type. Takes a special gun that has a mixing nozzel. There are diffrent types small med. and large panel.I'm going to try a combination of rivets welding and panel adhesive.Also some closed cell foam that is structral and can only be dented with a hammer.And threaded rod to make rails more like pillars. Will it work time will tell.Forgot to mention dipping rivets in 95% zinc paint

Let me know where to get the foam, I need some for a special project.

shopmaninc.com theres diffrent densities 2 part liquid expanding urethane foam