Manual Transmission oils

[Anthropy]

There has been some discussion that ATF is just fine in the manual transmissions. I have the AX-15 ('96 XJ) and my users manual says to use 75w-90 (I use the synthetic version).

Has anyone used the ATF in the AX-15 transmissions? I know for winter time use, the thought is easier shifting. I know that in January here the temps can get to minus 10 to minus 20 deg F and my trany shifts slow until the fluid gets moving.


Tom :patriot:

[gearwhine]

the only stuff that works in there, that has proof that it's fine for it is the manual transmisison fluid from the jeep dealer at 15 bucks a quart. I ran typical 80w-90 gear oil in mine for a year before I knew about the oil ordeal, and now my shifts aren't as smooth as they used to be. I'm swapping in the "good" fluid today hoping it doens't get any worse.

[Anthropy]

So what is the stuff from the dealer. Can you give me the number that the dealer uses?

Also, there has to be a ISO, or SAE number related to the oil.



Tom :patriot:

[Eagle]

Antropy --

Do a search on this forum. Several weeks back we had a long discussion about this. The problem is that gear lubes rated GL-5 have extreme pressure additives with a lot of sulpher in them, and the sulpher attacks the yellow metal in the synchronizers. At one time it was reported that the FSM and owners manuals contained a misprint in calling for GL-5 rated gear lube. One of our members, MJR, is a Jeep tech in California. He researched it and I believe what he learned was that Jeep changed the recommendation in one of the years using the AX-15 tranny. I don't remember, though, if GL-5 was the correct juice before the change, or after.

Doesn't affect you, but Jeep also has a new, non-rated tranny juice for the NVG3550 used in the 2000 and 2001 XJs. And I still don't know what I'm supposed to use in my Peugeot 5-speed.

One work-around that may be safe is to use Redline synthetic. According to Redline's web site, their gear lube is not injurious to yellow metals.

[CharlesS]

Eagle,

Not sure what year the change in recommendations was made, but while MJR was visiting with me several months ago I believe that he said, before a certain year (mid 90s) the recommendation was GL-5 and after a certain year it was GL-3.
The transmission in my 98 XJ AX-15 has not used anything other than Redline synthetic gear lube since shortly after purchasing the Jeep in Oct 97 and my synchros are rather notchy going from 2nd to 3rd. Until about 8 months ago I used GL-5 and I am now using Redline MTL GL-3 rated.
The transmission shifts slightly better, but I believe the damage has already been done.

[Anthropy]

I found the subject regarding the use of the gl-5 & gl-3. I have been using the gl-5 for the past year and perhaps that is why I have trouble shifting now.

It is really nice that they are so forward as to what the requirements are for the fluid. When I do a commissioning on a blower, it calls for an ISO-220 oil and any oil that meets that rating is OK to use by the Mfg. So why can't they do the same.

Tom

[Eagle]

The requirements for the fluid are not the problem. GL=5 is GL-5, and it is an extreme pressure gear lube. However, it is formulated first and foremost for use in drive axles, which don't have brass and bronze parts in them.

The problem is that the factory probably made a mistake in calling for GL-5 in the manual transmissions. However, since the Cherokee has been discontinued and the Grand Cherokee doesn't come with a 5-speed, and the 5-speed they now use in the Liberty and Wrangler takes a special lubricant that's not even GL-3 rated -- they ain't fessin' up to nuthin'

[RichP]

Also keep in mind if you shop around to save money the brand the advance carries is 'Coastal' they have a GL-3/4/5 rated gear lube. The differences between GL-3 and GL-5 are like comparing water and salt water, both are wet but only one if fit to drink. If it has a GL-5 rating it has Sulphur which is damaging to sintered metals. Now one person I know on the bluemountain group did some research and he's going to try MT-90 which is GL-4 rated, what I would like to know is does GL-4 have those sulphur compounds ??? I don't know.

[Wayne Sihler]

Look at this info I got from a Shell master book in my friends lube bay-
84-87 T4+T5---- GLS
84-96 All others-75w90 GL5
97 Cherokee-----75w90 GL3
98-03 All except NV3500-75w90 GL3
NV3500 -- GLS
There were a lot of spec # that each mfg.uses .But it all boiled down to these.

Wayne
PS,this was the list for YJ.TJ.XJ.WJ and ZJ

[Anthropy]

I re-checked my owners manual and it shows GL-5 as a listing and mine is a '96. So I suppose now I am hosed and my syncros will need replacing. Well, that explains a lot about my 'new hard to shift' troubles that I attributed to my clutch's slave cylinder.

I will have to look for the redline gl-3 lube. Does it just go by the name 'Redline'?

Speaking of being discontinued. I remember the press release that I heard on the news one morning '... is discontinuing their best selling line, the Cherokee' I still scratch my head over that statement.


Tom :confused:

[CharlesS]

Redline is the manufacturer of the gearlube. You can purchase it from Summit Racing online and have it mailed to you or you can shop and buy it locally. Usually about $7.95 a qt and you need a little over 3 qts.

[kevin s]

Pennzoil synchromesh is rated for yellow metals. $4.95 at Autozone. Same spec numbers as GM synchromesh. This is the stuff to use.

[RichP]

I also looked at Royal Purple and they acknowledge the GL-3 in 1997 XJ's and recommend some other motor oils ??? Can't figure that out.
The MT-90 from redline looks about the best bet if someone can answer the Gl-3 and GL-4 difference. While the comparision between GL-3 and GL-5 may be appropriate maybe the difference between GL-3 and GL-4 might only be the difference between say well water and city treated water.
I'm going to see if I can find a local redline dealer and pick up 4 quarts of the MT-90 and see what happens.

[kevin s]

Pennzoil synchromesh is the stuff to use. Same spec numbers as GM syncromesh. Safe for yellow metals. $4.95 at Autozone.

[Anthropy]

I think the MT-90 is the right choice for the viscosity range. The MTL seems a bit on the light side.

I used the valvoline synthetic gl-5 oil, but did not look to see if that was 'yellow' metal safe.

Royal Purple (found at Napa) is interesting as that has the same ratings for ISO-220 blower oil.

Tom

[Eagle]

Originally posted by kevin s
Pennzoil synchromesh is rated for yellow metals. $4.95 at Autozone. Same spec numbers as GM synchromesh. This is the stuff to use.

NO! NO! NO!

This is NOT the stuff to use.

I thought that, too, when I saw it on the shelf and bought 5 bottles of it. Then I read the fine print, checked with the Jeep dealer, and was told that the Mopar spec it meets is only for the NVG 3500 and 4500 series transmissions.

I didn't believe it, so I called Pennzoil and spoke with one of their engineers. He told me the same thing. It's also listed on the Pennzoil web site. It is not to be used in the BA 10/5 or AX-series transmissions. This stuff has effectively no extreme pressure additives. If you read the back of the bottle, it has no GL rating -- not even GL-3.

I have a 2000 with the NVG3550 so I'll keep the stuff for use in that. The rest of you with the AX-15s will have to keep looking.

[kevin s]

Wow. Sorry for the misinformation. I picked it up from a previous thread a couple years ago and used it in my AX-5 in my departed YJ.

What did the Pennzoil guy say it WAS good for?

[Mike in NJ]

Happened to be at my neighborhood NAPA store today and saw that their "Premium Gear Oil 80W-85W-90" is rated Gl-5, GL-4, AND GL-3! :eek:

One wonders. If GL-5 rated fluid is too corrosive for GL-3 rated transmissions, and GL-3 rated oil does not contain the additives needed for GL-5 transmissions - how is this "miracle" multigrade oil capable of dealing with the needs of both?? :confused:

BTW - $2.10 a quart.

My head hurts. :cry:

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by Anthropy
It is really nice that they are so forward as to what the requirements are for the fluid.
What does your manual say? Mine specifies the requirement as GL3....

In regards to the multigrade stuff... I don't believe it and my theory is that no matter how expensive the stuff is at the dealers, it's less then the rebuild for the tranny! Btw, when you go there, you have to ask for AX15 transmission fluid, otherwise they will most likely not know what you need...

Kejtar

[Rev Den]

Call me silly......I have been dumping whatever I pull off the shelf 75W-90W for over 13 years and 200K miles in my 90 5 speed, no problems.
GL-3,4,5 ?? Beat the heck outta me.

Rev

[Kejtar]

IIRC throughout the time I have been here on NAXJA I have heard of at least 5 different AX15's that had to be rebuilt due to eaten synchros..... 2 of them were on the same XJ under warranty at the dealers and the last one came in from the rebuilt with a note that said something to the extent: "read the manual and use GL3"

Kejtar

[Wayne Sihler]

Here is more info-----
GL-3 Meeting MS-9684 Part # 04897622AA
GL-5 Meeting MS-9763 #05010320AA 75w90
Gl-5 Meeting MS-8985 #04874469 75w140
These are Daimler/Chryco spec #,s
NO GL-4 is reccomended for any Chryco product
HTH
Wayne

[Anthropy]

My manual says 75w-90 GL-5 for my '96.

Does anyone have any word on the Valvoline 75w-90 synthetic that is rated GL-5? I went to their website and it really does not say much of anything about it. ;(

Tom

[Mike in NJ]

Anthropy wrote:

Does anyone have any word on the Valvoline 75w-90 synthetic that is rated GL-5

:) - Gee, that's the stuff I put in to treat my 200K mile '92 AX-15, 2000 miles ago - and everything's just fine.

Of course, right after I did that a couple of months ago - the whole GL-3, GL-5 thing started up again. And I started to waver. Rev's right though, ashamed to say I haven't been paying much attention the past 10 years and everything's just whoopy-keen.

BUT, so is Ketjar and I'm supposed to use GL-3. Well, I figure now it's probably jinxed, which is why I'm going to drain the practically new, pricey, Valvoline stuff with the even more pricey dealer stuff before I head out to Moab! :eek:

Yeah, I'm wussin' out, but, have to keep the gear gods happy before a 2300 mile trip!!! :D

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Anthropy]

Well, that is just it. Safe or not safe. Mine being a '96, did they make a mistake or not. It seems a major transition took place in the '97 and that is where the 'offical' numbering changes between the GL-5 to the GL-3.

So the question remains, is the GL-3 safe enough for all the AX15 trannies.

As far as 'wussin' out, the oil is far cheaper than getting the trannie rebuilt. Speaking of which, does anyone know what the cost should be to have new syncros installed. I know, I know - not cheap. ;(

I was testing out my clutch this morning and tried pumping my clutch pedel about 10 times and then noticed that my shifting was easier. So it appears that the master/slave cylinder is at least contributing to my woes.

Tom R. Dennis - still confused, but not alone in my confusion.

[RichP]

The ONLY manufacturer I could find is Redline and they say that MT-90 is specifically safe for sintered metals [bronze ]. Tomorrow I might actually make it out of the house and will try to get over to OK4Wheel drive in NJ and pick some up. I just hope I'm not jumping from the Mobil-1 frying pan into the MT-90 fire :D

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

OK guys, I don't have a dog in this fight, since my XJ is auto, but I'll jump in anyway. The GL4 and GL5 both have EP additives (usually sulphur and phosphorus, sometimes boron). The GL5 has about double the amount of the GL4. The sulphur/phosporus will harm yellow metals, but only if heated to an extreme temperature. GL5's are used in diffs because of the 90* power transfer, which requires more EP additives. Transmissions' power is transferred straight through, so a GL4 is adequate for them. (I would not use any oil, rating under a GL4.)

I went through this dilemma a couple years ago when I changed trans oil in my Bronco. I contacted a Coastal rep and he told me that Coastal uses a "buffering" additive that makes their GL5 safe for yellow metals. I understand that all the major suppliers also do this, so any of today's oils are safe to use. That's why a single oil can be specified GL3, 4, and 5, and be backward compatible to meet all of the requirements of each spec.

I wound up using Coastal 75W-90 (GL3,4,and 5) in the Bronco transmission. I like having to only stock one gear oil for all the diffs and the transmission.....

[Kejtar]

well.... there is on big problem with what you said.... you're basing your theory on what was said by a rep of a company who most likely was only exposed to a chem class in high school and doesn't know what he's repeating...

I have a buddy who's working on his PHD in chemistry and his dad is (was... as he is now retired) a chem engineer for the oil industry.... The line about GL3 GL4 GL5 oil is bordering with BS.... there is no way that an oil can satisfy all the requirements at once. The most common reason that sales people/companies use that line is because based on average usage one can expect a certain lifetime out of other components in the tranny.... on the other hand, I drive 60+ miles twice a day, half of it in sweltering heat in stop and go traffic..... I am on the extreme end of the spectrum so even if John Doe was happily moving along on Mobil 1 for X amount of miles with a slight hint of some trouble brewing, I'd by now would be picking up pieces that would be left over from my tranny taking a dump. The bottom line that we gotta face is that we got a tranny that uses/requires expensive oil (GL3, available only at the dealers). We push our XJ's further then most people push any of their vehicles. We heat them up, beat them up, drop them off rocks, ride quite a bit more in 1st and 2nd then others so we can't go by a generic company line....

Also from what I remember from my AX15 research it was that from the getgo the GL3 was the required lube.... then for about 2 years or so GL5 was printed in the manual and then they went back to GL3 when they realized the issues at hand (the second year has the manuals saying GL5 while the FSM is already going back to GL3)......

So my word of advice to all those who are reading this and are stuck in the same hard spot as me.... spend the extra $$ and buy the GL3 from the dealer....

Kejtar

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Kejtar, the Coastal rep was a Chemist. I can't remember his company title now, but he seemed to know what he was talking about. I have heard/read the same thing from other sources since then. Potassium Borate is the buffering agent used, and under extreme heat it coats the metal and prevents the chemical reaction of the sulphur/phosphorus with the yellow metals.

Adding the buffer to gear oil is a fairly recent development, so that may explain the differences in the Jeep specs. Older gear lubes were not buffered, and indeed would destroy the syncros if they contained too much sulphur.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Wayne Sihler
Here is more info-----
GL-3 Meeting MS-9684 Part # 04897622AA
GL-5 Meeting MS-9763 #05010320AA 75w90
Gl-5 Meeting MS-8985 #04874469 75w140
These are Daimler/Chryco spec #,s
NO GL-4 is reccomended for any Chryco product
HTH
Wayne

just to get the info all in one place, I'll add the data for the Pennzoil "Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid"


Unrated Meeting MS9224 Part # 4874464 Viscosity not specified


In the fine print on the back of the pretty yellow bottle, it says "*Pennzoil(R) Synchromesh Fluid is not intended for all manual transaxles or transmissions. Always check owner's manual for exact applications."

The Pennzoil engineer told me the same thing the dealer told me -- this lube is for use in the NVG 3500 and 4500 series transmissions, not the AX- series or the Peugeot.

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by Runnin'OnEmpty
Adding the buffer to gear oil is a fairly recent development, so that may explain the differences in the Jeep specs. Older gear lubes were not buffered, and indeed would destroy the syncros if they contained too much sulphur.

Hmmm maybe you're right, but then again I thknk that I remember the same version of GL5 lubes going back a while back (I used to own an 86 XJ from 95 on) and I'll have to say that the damge to the tranny's has occured to more recent (then 95) models using said gear oils.....

Also buffers do not guarantee a 100% clean reaction. They are there to aid but do not expect for things to be perfectly clean as even in a controlled laboratory environmnet there is always loss as buffering is not perfect :)

In any case..... I have a small stock of the AX15 fluid on hand :)

Kejtar

[Matthew Currie]

Originally posted by Anthropy
My manual says 75w-90 GL-5 for my '96.

Does anyone have any word on the Valvoline 75w-90 synthetic that is rated GL-5? I went to their website and it really does not say much of anything about it. ;(

Tom

When I bought my 95, with 110K on it, the tranny was very noisy and shifted poorly. I put the FSM-recommended GL-5 in, and it didn't help, so, Like Mike in NJ, I went out and got some of that Valvoline synthetic, under the impression that, GL rating notwithstanding, it is sulfur-free, and it was the cheapest synthetic around. I had had the new dino oil in for about 5 thousand miles. When I dumped out the old dino oil, it looked like liquid gold , there was so much brass in it. As soon as the synthetic went in, the transmission quieted down a lot, shifts better, and, oddly enough, as it ages, it seems to get quieter, and at 183K, premature failure is not an option, so I'm leaving it in.