Newbie questions, perhaps too elementry?

[WB9YZU]

Perhaps we are spoon feeding these guys too much? I don't know...
The OEM forum is starting to remind me of the book "How to keep your VW alive, for the complete idiot", without the philoshophy, amusing stories, and organization of the book.

Though I do enjoy helping Newbies, I am bothered by the fact that the forum's search function is appearantly so difficult to use that we end up covering the same darn question 10 times a week.

Perhaps we should write an on-line book?
Would a working title of:
"NAXJA's guide to the care and feeding of your XJ. Now with many illistrations and diagrams for the ESL and functionally illiterate newb" ...be too out of line ;)

There comes a point in every newbies life when they have to assume some reponsibility to research their subject. I have always thought that Forums were the last line of help after you RTFM. Am I just old?

...and WTF is it with people posting MOD questions in OEM? Since when did 33's come from the factory on an XJ?

[CRASH]

Start by sticky-ing something similar in OEM Tech:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58981

I'm not a mod over there, so I can't do it.

[87manche]

Perhaps we are spoon feeding these guys too much? I don't know...
The OEM forum is starting to remind me of the book "How to keep your VW alive, for the complete idiot", without the philoshophy, amusing stories, and organization of the book.

Though I do enjoy helping Newbies, I am bothered by the fact that the forum's search function is appearantly so difficult to use that we end up covering the same darn question 10 times a week.

Perhaps we should write an on-line book?
Would a working title of:
"NAXJA's guide to the care and feeding of your XJ. Now with many illistrations and diagrams for the ESL and functionally illiterate newb" ...be too out of line ;)

There comes a point in every newbies life when they have to assume some reponsibility to research their subject. I have always thought that Forums were the last line of help after you RTFM. Am I just old?

...and WTF is it with people posting MOD questions in OEM? Since when did 33's come from the factory on an XJ?

I think that's what the FAQ forum is supposed to be.

Yes, n00bs need to search, I say that jestfully, but seriously, I've seen soo many questions that are asked and there's a thread on the SAME PAGE about the exact same questions.

Perhaps we need to define OEM better, these acronyms can be confusing after all.

[IntrepidXJ]

I've been an admin for many internet forums over the last 8 years. Have tried everything to stop people asking the same questions over and over again. There is no solution. Many people are just too lazy to do any research on their own. They want to be spoon fed excatly what they want to know (with pictures of every step).

I think the FAQ might help a little, but it will not stop the problem.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

My 2 cents.

[87manche]

I've been an admin for many internet forums over the last 8 years. Have tried everything to stop people asking the same questions over and over again. There is no solution. Many people are just too lazy to do any research on their own. They want to be spoon fed excatly what they want to know (with pictures of every step).

I think the FAQ might help a little, but it will not stop the problem.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

My 2 cents.
then I guess we need to let it get dehydrated

[DaJudge]

Unfortunately Randy is correct! Some people wil never search. It doesn't matter what we do. And it is not just the Noobs. Some of the guilty ones have been around for awhile.

Really those are the ones that make searching such a PITA. If there weren't 10,000 threads on the same thing searching would be much easier.

If someone can come up with a good solution I would certainly support it!

Glen

[8Mud]

Just a likely scenerio; Guy just got through paying a $600 dollar bill at the dealership (likely half of his monthly disposable income) and the old XJ is still acting up. Do I tackle it myself or possibly dump good money after bad? Another, somebody is new to XJ's and is on a limited income. it's either do it yourself or not at all. Or somebody has decided to learn in the driveway, before they need the skills 20 miles from nowhere.
Guy (or gal) has some rudimentary automotive or mechanical skills. Likely some time restraints, either the need for the XJ for transportation and/or only so much free time. Likely doesn't even know what questions to ask, much less the nomunclature and function of half the bits and pieces.
I don't mind helping, to get somebodies thoughts in order (to the best of my ability) maybe a nudge in a probable fruitfull direction (whatever has worked for me in the past, in a similiar situation), when they get stuck.
When somebody is stumbling through unfamiliar territory, likely in the middle of someplace they have never been before, disorientation is a factor (information overload).
Or to put it another way, if somebody asks for directions, I'm gonna try and help out to the best of my ability. Even though street maps are avialable at most any gas station, library or the same directions have been asked by another.
People sometimes display a lack of empathy, I've troubleshot building environmental control systems, Mainline battle tanks, systems with enough wiring and control circuits for a fleet or small town and still find occasional headscratchers in the old XJ. My IQ is somewhere around a century and half. I don't feel the least bit inadequate asking questions (even questions that have been asked before), especially when the system (or sub system) is new or unfamiliar.
In additon, the explanations in the FSM, various automotive manauls and other sources are often unclear. Even sometimes, just plain wrong.
One thing a teacher has to have, is loads of patience. Langer1 is an example of one of the good guys.

[DaJudge]

Just a likely scenerio; Guy just got through paying a $600 dollar bill at the dealership (likely half of his monthly disposable income) and the old XJ is still acting up. Do I tackle it myself or possibly dump good money after bad? Another, somebody is new to XJ's and is on a limited income. it's either do it yourself or not at all. Or somebody has decided to learn in the driveway, before they need the skills 20 miles from nowhere.
Guy (or gal) has some rudimentary automotive or mechanical skills. Likely some time restraints, either the need for the XJ for transportation and/or only so much free time. Likely doesn't even know what questions to ask, much less the nomunclature and function of half the bits and pieces.
I don't mind helping, to get somebodies thoughts in order (to the best of my ability) maybe a nudge in a probable fruitfull direction (whatever has worked for me in the past, in a similiar situation), when they get stuck.
When somebody is stumbling through unfamiliar territory, likely in the middle of someplace they have never been before, disorientation is a factor (information overload).
Or to put it another way, if somebody asks for directions, I'm gonna try and help out to the best of my ability. Even though street maps are avialable at most any gas station, library or the same directions have been asked by another.
People sometimes display a lack of empathy, I've troubleshot building environmental control systems, Mainline battle tanks, systems with enough wiring and control circuits for a fleet or small town and still find occasional headscratchers in the old XJ. My IQ is somewhere around a century and half. I don't feel the least bit inadequate asking questions (even questions that have been asked before), especially when the system (or sub system) is new or unfamiliar.
In additon, the explanations in the FSM, various automotive manauls and other sources are often unclear. Even sometimes, just plain wrong.
One thing a teacher has to have, is loads of patience. Langer1 is an example of one of the good guys.

I agree about the willingness to help. I have never not gotten the help I needed from people on NAXJA. The issue being discussed is those that refuse to take a little time and search for the answer. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect people to try and help themselves first. I have searched on topics and not understood the answers I found. I posted a question stating I found this info. and this info. and stated where my lack of understanding was. I got immediate help from many different people. I think the problem is the lack of effort on some peoples part.

[dmillion]

I especially like the postings along the lines of "I know I ought to search, but I'm too lazy (or don't have time, or something like that), so please tell me..."

I always answer with something like "I know I ought to answer your question, but I'm too lazy (or don't have the time, or something like that)..."

Anybody who actually says that they're too lazy to search, and so they want YOU to put in the effort (time, whatever) to answer their question, deserves to be slapped down pretty hard. For the others, when it's obvious that a simple search would provide them with everything they need to know, a polite note directing them how to use the search function seems quite appropriate to me. My guess is that a lot of them don't even know that there IS a search function, let alone how to use it.

[8Mud]

I guess the problem is sorting out the lost, the technically challenged, those on a tight schedule and the lazy.
I've asked questions on NAXJA before and gotten a resounding thud in responce. A very loud but silent DUH or just plain ignored. I'd guess it's my communication skills falling a little short of expectations.
In my mind, the mission is to get an XJ up and running, form, personality and communicatrion skills, are generally a secondary factor, with me anyways (though I have to admit, some people are really obnoxious). I guess mission first, is a leftover from my military days. I kind of got used to sifting through the trash and just getting the job done as quickly and painlessly as possible.

[5-90]

1) We need to get the FAQ list going. I've done some writing myself, but I'm taking this summer off from classes, and I should be able to catch up on all the "other stuff" that I haven't had time for.

2) Perhaps a few individuals with "semi-mod" privileges, searching for the more common questions, assembling thread replies, and running them past the mods so the extraneous threads can be deleted? Sounds like another summer project, but I can't do that alone...

3) Courtesy is also an issue. If I can't fully understand a question, I do try to ask for clarification - at least it's a response, although it puts the ball back in the poster's court.

4) Lack of information. Do you have any idea how many threads get started with NOTHING about the vehicle in question - not even a year? Kind of irritating, that. I've informally proposed a "standard tech line" format for disseminating the information. I am not inclined to look in everyone's profile to see what they've got, it's not fair to expect me to, and what about some of us here who have several? I've got five so far - an 87, an 88, and three 89's. How would you know which one I have trouble with?

5) Da Book. I'm actually sorta working on an "Ultimate XJ/MJ Tech Manual," and the idea might be to do two versions now - one for general (and free!) consumption, and one for purchase. I'd probably put it up on the WiP site if I do a freebie, but it's been becoming an idea. I'll probably start compiling questions this summer as well, but I could use the help. My idea of "common" probably varies from everyone else's - could I collect a few volunteers (about a half-dozen or so) to compile lists so I can compare notes?

6) Terrminology. I've got an "Unofficial NAXJA Lexicon" in the works on my system, could I get additions? Suggest away - if I've got it, no harm done. If I don't got it, I'll add it. It will also get posted at WiP, and maybe here as well. I do tend to define abbreviations when I use them (when I remember...) but having a centralised listing can only help, and should be a fairly small .html page.

Any other ideas?

5-90, Archivist, Lexicographer.

[creeperjeep]

When you say WiP is that the same as that Wiki thing? If so, I like that idea, if its like the wikipedia where stuff can be added.

I agree most of the problem comes from people with the sub 30 post count that are either too lazy to search or search for "what does 33z look liek on a jeep" and get no results.
Maybe there should be a mandatory class on searching before posting?
And the general broad questions are somewhat annoying;
"why dont my head lights turn on?"
"where is the fuse for blah blah?"

Searching is where its at.
Maybe a trouble shooting fundamentals class?

EDIT;
Where is the "Send To Recycle Bin" button for those well covered posts?

[WB9YZU]

Terminology, 1 "r". :D

What is "WiP"? I Yahoo'd it and got a radio station and a few other sundries.

There is an ultimate XJ/MJ book out in the for sale section, your's will need to be, like, Super Ultimate ;) Still, your publishing a book will not help those too freek'n cheap to buy a book (seems like most of the posters here)

I agree, and have seen the vehicle/ lack of info problem. Very annoying....
A classic is "I have a problem with a clunk up front, what could it be?"
You just want to go off on a rant with someone that lazy or stupid, but you hold back.

The questions that clearly should be in Modified...I give up and won't even bother to report those posts anymore. You folks want to be enablers? Fine, I don't want to hear any complaints.

Folks with 3,000 or more posts should have to pay back dues to the club ;)

God I'm crabby today :D

[Bent]

...for the complete idiot...

I'm an idiot, what's yer point?

[Spudboy]

Since I've been lurking on the Yotatech forum, I've found that they have a sticky at the top of the forum where some good soul has assembled most of the common questions into an FAQ. I'm sure it took a lot of time, but I found many of my questions already answered and in one place. They also put links in there and a lot of basic tech.

Not volunteering to take that on, but might be willing to help if needed.

[IntrepidXJ]

Since I've been lurking on the Yotatech forum, I've found that they have a sticky at the top of the forum where some good soul has assembled most of the common questions into an FAQ. I'm sure it took a lot of time, but I found many of my questions already answered and in one place. They also put links in there and a lot of basic tech.

Not volunteering to take that on, but might be willing to help if needed.

there are other jeep forums i watch that do the same. guess what? no one reads them, and the same questions are still asked everyday.

[WB9YZU]

I guess the problem is sorting out the lost, the technically challenged, those on a tight schedule and the lazy.

No heavy thought required.
If I have to tell them which side of the wrench to hold, they should take it somewhere.
Lazy, go RTFM!
Those who know what they are doing, but need diagnostic trouble- cool.
Or having difficulty- cool.

This kind of question:
How to I replace my front brakes?...Should not be answered.

This kind:
I replaced my front brakes, and the bolt holding the caliper stripped- suggestions?...Should.

This kind:
I'm in the middle of installing my front locker on my 86' and I'm having trouble letting the "c" clip in, help!...Should.

This kind:
I just got a lock-right. How do I install it?...Should not.

This kind:
I'm at a Hotel in bumb-fudge Nebraska. I was coming back from Moab and my 98' Jeep started making a loud thud. I traced it to (xyz part). There are no parts stores open on Sunday (today), can someone help me?...Should most seriously be answered, especially if their name is in RED!

[WB9YZU]

[Originally Posted by Zuki-Ron
...for the complete idiot...

I'm an idiot, what's yer point?

You made it :D

[5-90]

When you say WiP is that the same as that Wiki thing? If so, I like that idea, if its like the wikipedia where stuff can be added.

I agree most of the problem comes from people with the sub 30 post count that are either too lazy to search or search for "what does 33z look liek on a jeep" and get no results.
Maybe there should be a mandatory class on searching before posting?
And the general broad questions are somewhat annoying;
"why dont my head lights turn on?"
"where is the fuse for blah blah?"

Searching is where its at.
Maybe a trouble shooting fundamentals class?

EDIT;
Where is the "Send To Recycle Bin" button for those well covered posts?


WiP = Works in Progress. My site - the link is in my sig.

As far as the other book goes, I've ordered a copy, and I've also talked with Eric about it. I am working on a more "general tech" book - another adjunct to the FSM to help with troubleshooting and diagnosis - and there should be little to no overlap between the two. Also, since I'm writing, printing, and publishing it myself, there are no creative constraints upon me, or page limitations, so I can do pretty much whatever I want/whatever I think will be useful. Any other suggestions for inclusion? It's not a "troubleshooting fundamentals" class, but it's the next best thing that I can stick in a manual. Maybe "ultimate owner's guide" is more fitting.

5-90

[Bent]

[Originally Posted by Zuki-Ron
...for the complete idiot...



You made it :D

Great! I've been working on my communication skills.





:D

[98XJSport]

Just a note on something most of us members forget is that you cannot search unless you are registered on the forums. To me if you can't find an answer to your question, and there isn't a search function, what do you do? Register and post the question. Then you get the search newbie responses, etc.

Not that this will take care of the dumbass "I was too lazy" posts, but it couldn't hurt on cutting down the common repeat questions.

[Ed A. Stevens]

Since I've been lurking on the Yotatech forum, I've found that they have a sticky at the top of the forum where some good soul has assembled most of the common questions into an FAQ. I'm sure it took a lot of time, but I found many of my questions already answered and in one place. They also put links in there and a lot of basic tech.

Not volunteering to take that on, but might be willing to help if needed.



This was the intent of the original FAQ project. Take a good thread, edit it to cut out the fluff and emotional BS, and make it a sticky in a dedicated FAQ Forum.

The problem (as you identified) is time to read and edit comon threads, and the fact that for many of us/you it's easier to just answer the question.

We even had difficulty generating newbie questions, as the FAQ volunteers are far removed from posing newbie questions and no one appeared to be Vbulletin literate to the point where stats on where to find the most common search words. This is an area where help identifying the most common question could get the project kickstarted.

We at NAXJA should not feel bad. In my fairly recent travels into other forums the blackhole of search is no better than at NAXJA, and can be much worse.

I asked a backspacing question and got told to search. The search finds 64 threads. Two of sixty four threads identify the fender configuration of the authors (statement that they are unmodified stock, the rest offer no qualification). About ten posts offer information on the author's suspension modifications, a few qualify the recommendation based on the factory options (from forty years ago, and only reference offset). The majority of the balance of threads are complaints from people following the unqualified search advice, after ordering and finding the rims and tires did not fit the car. In XJ speak it's the equivalent of being told 37x15.5's fit fine on 16x10 rims with 7" backspacing, on the author's car ( :) do it, you will love it :) ), but they forget to offer their car has a narrowed axle with fourlink and tubbed wheelwells :( . The complaints are harsh when these guys are spending $550 per rim with no return policy (the only difference is many seem to have the $$$$ to blow). NAXJA does seem to have people threatening litigation over unqualified advice (maybe the $$$ are not up there ... yet).

I have to offer that not having a license or permission to link an acrobat copy of the Shop Manuals is a real handicap to answering OEM questions. Many of the forums I have visited have links to obsolete shop manuals and factory service manuals (without complaint from the manufacturer as many are no longer in business). DC permission (or whoever owns the copyright) to link an on-line copy of the FSM's would be a considerable asset to NAXJA members (NAXJA Club members - if I may speak "out of forum"). Rather than a FAQ a legal on-line FSM library may be more productive and beneficial (just not to non-club member newbies).

Food for thought?

[goodburbon]

I'm willing to help with whatever I can. I have time to spare. I can't do much else for the club down here in BFL except ruffle feathers, and help with the occasional tech Q.

I'm all for cutting the fat out of tech threads, and renaming them appropriately so that when the search function returns a plethora of irrelevant posts they will be easy to spot. There will be far too numerous to make stickys.

[87manche]

I've been referring people to the autozone repair info. They let you deep link the manual, so the 3 "i need drum brake diagrams" threads in the last week I've sent over there, right to the page with pctures. It's like an online haynes manual. It's better than having to type out the step by step instructions.
http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=RG001&UserAction=beginRepairGuide

[WB9YZU]

I've been referring people to the autozone repair info. They let you deep link the manual, so the 3 "i need drum brake diagrams" threads in the last week I've sent over there, right to the page with pctures. It's like an online haynes manual. It's better than having to type out the step by step instructions.
http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=RG001&UserAction=beginRepairGuide

I thought this was an ideal solution, but there appears to be the same problems as every other idea, accuracy.
Here is a quote from the site:
"The HEI system, used on 2.5L, 2.8L and 4.0L engines, is a pulse-triggered, transistorized controlled, inductive discharge ignition system. The entire HEI system (except for the ignition coil on fuel injected engines) is contained within the distributor cap."

Accuracy appears not to one of the sites strong points. :(

Ed, as far as I can tell, copywrite law is the mail stumbling block to having the FSM on-line :(
Good idea though!

The problem with relying on "Good threads" for the FAQ project instead of an authors document is that sooner or later, some azzhat changes the subject, which then requires the editing you mentioned. If we could get the folks who are taking the time to do a write up to do a document instead of a post, something on the order of a single format form which the person just fills in the blanks and adds pictures, that would go a long way.
Those documents could be presented on our website by subject. Certainly no a new idea. That's the way MadXJ has done it for years.

[5-90]

Well, I'd be willing to take "bonehead Vbulletin" sometime, or read a manual if someone will send me one - because I'd like to help!

I'm sure the FAQ isn't a panacea, but it's a start, and as good a place as any. I know sod-all about Vbulletin, but that can be fixed if someone will tell me where to look (I'm sure someone has links, and that would allow me to devote time to building Archives instead...)

I'd been planning on writing DCX for somewhat related (read: research) reasons, perhaps I can also find out what FSM's we can work with as well? Just because they own Jeep, doesn't mean that they hold copyrights on older stuff (I'd think,) and the XJ and MJ are no longer in production, which might also give us a little leverage. Who's got .pdf copies of FSMs? I only have a few.

If nothing else, FSMs can be perused, condensed, and paraphrased to make for some basic troubleshooting stuff, and that would (I'd have to check) fall under "fair use," since we'd not be posting them in original - just a derivative work. I'll have to talk to my wife - she's done copyright work for Adobe.

So, who's willing to send me research material?

5-90

[Glenn B]

The vbulletin part is handled. :) The content is up to the FAQ Team....

Well, I'd be willing to take "bonehead Vbulletin" sometime, or read a manual if someone will send me one - because I'd like to help!

I'm sure the FAQ isn't a panacea, but it's a start, and as good a place as any. I know sod-all about Vbulletin, but that can be fixed if someone will tell me where to look (I'm sure someone has links, and that would allow me to devote time to building Archives instead...)

I'd been planning on writing DCX for somewhat related (read: research) reasons, perhaps I can also find out what FSM's we can work with as well? Just because they own Jeep, doesn't mean that they hold copyrights on older stuff (I'd think,) and the XJ and MJ are no longer in production, which might also give us a little leverage. Who's got .pdf copies of FSMs? I only have a few.

If nothing else, FSMs can be perused, condensed, and paraphrased to make for some basic troubleshooting stuff, and that would (I'd have to check) fall under "fair use," since we'd not be posting them in original - just a derivative work. I'll have to talk to my wife - she's done copyright work for Adobe.

So, who's willing to send me research material?

5-90

[imma honky]

So anyways... what's the biggest tire I can fit under a 4 door 90' cherokee Laredo 2x4 automatic with a d30 and d35 with all power options and a sunroof and foglights, red in color with a roof rack?

[Glenn B]

So anyways... what's the biggest tire I can fit under a 4 door 90' cherokee Laredo 2x4 automatic with a d30 and d35 with all power options and a sunroof and foglights, red in color with a roof rack?

Goodyears. They always fit. You will have to trim the A pillar for BFG's. :repair:

[jeepinxj01]

No heavy thought required.
If I have to tell them which side of the wrench to hold, they should take it somewhere.
Lazy, go RTFM!
Those who know what they are doing, but need diagnostic trouble- cool.
Or having difficulty- cool.

This kind of question:
How to I replace my front brakes?...Should not be answered.

This kind:
I replaced my front brakes, and the bolt holding the caliper stripped- suggestions?...Should.

This kind:
I'm in the middle of installing my front locker on my 86' and I'm having trouble letting the "c" clip in, help!...Should.

This kind:
I just got a lock-right. How do I install it?...Should not.

This kind:
I'm at a Hotel in bumb-fudge Nebraska. I was coming back from Moab and my 98' Jeep started making a loud thud. I traced it to (xyz part). There are no parts stores open on Sunday (today), can someone help me?...Should most seriously be answered, especially if their name is in RED!


I'll weigh in.....My name is obviously NOT in RED, but I do spend what could be considered an obscene amount of time on here. I'm lucky enough that I can play on the internet at work and I spend most of my time on NAXJA. Sometimes I'm logged in and sometimes I'm not. I occasionally throw up a post, but I spend 99% of my time on here reading. New posts, old posts and everything in between. I've learned an awful lot from the folks in "RED" and a lot from the folks in "BLACK."

I know my way around XJ's and TJ's alike. I have one of each, my point to that......if I'm stranded and need help and a quick answer regardless if it's been covered a million times, you should answer it.....especially if my name is in "Black." That's a sure fire way to get my money for membership. I'm stranded and you tell me to search, my ass won't be back. You just lost the chance of me ever going "RED."

I know my 30 dollars is only a drop in the bucket, but it's the point of it. Go to Wal-Mart and have a crappy experience; you'll think twice about going back.

The search feature here is a great tool, but the archives are huge. That presents a problem for someone who may need that quick answer and don't really have the time to search. I think it would help a lot of people, "RED" or "BLACK" to do an FAQ sticky.

You're not ever going to get away from the guys or gals who will post a question that was posted 10 minutes earlier, unless you make use of the forums only to the folks in "RED." Even then it won't stop it completely.

Everyone was a newb once, so maybe a little empathy to them and answer their question regardless of how redundent <sp> it is and make sure they know how to search....maybe the membership numbers will go up.

[WB9YZU]

I'll way in.....My name is obviously NOT in RED, but I do spend what could be considered an obscene amount of time on here. I'm lucky enough that I can play on the internet at work and I spend most of my time on NAXJA. Sometimes I'm logged in and sometimes I'm not. I occasionally throw up a post, but I spend 99% of my time on here reading. New posts, old posts and everything in between. I've learned an awful lot from the folks in "RED" and a lot from the folks in "BLACK."

I know my way around XJ's and TJ's alike. I have one of each, my point to that......if I'm stranded and need help and a quick answer regardless if it's been covered a million times, you should answer it.....especially if my name is in "Black." That's a sure fire way to get my money for membership. I'm stranded and you tell me to search, my ass won't be back. You just lost the chance of me ever going "RED."

I know my 30 dollars is only a drop in the bucket, but it's the point of it. Go to Wal-Mart and have a crappy experience; you'll think twice about going back.

The search feature here is a great tool, but the archives are huge. That presents a problem for someone who may need that quick answer and don't really have the time to search. I think it would help a lot of people, "RED" or "BLACK" to do an FAQ sticky.

You're not ever going to get away from the guys or gals who will post a question that was posted 10 minutes earlier, unless you make use of the forums only to the folks in "RED." Even then it won't stop it completely.

Everyone was a newb once, so maybe a little empathy to them and answer their question regardless of how redundent <sp> it is and make sure they know how to search....maybe the membership numbers will go up.

Actually, regardless of the banter, we are extremely empethetic to the newbie cause, at least I am. Every time I log in, I examine the places I visit, the visit the OEM and MOD forums to see if there is a question I can pickup there. I usually provide a detailed outline of the proceedure...if I have the time. And that my friend is the crux, if we have the time.

As I stated, if you are stranded in timbuck-fudge Neb and need assistance, do like River did and say you are stranded and need assistance. You will increase your chances of getting a positive response.

I don't want to sound contrite about the membership issue. I would like to have every member who is not in Red, become a member and support this Club, UFWDA, and this Forum.

NAXJA is not an auto club like AAA. We are not an extension of Damlier Chrysler. We sure the f*ck are not Wal-Mart! ;)

We are a club of Cherokee owners who like to get together, on the web, and in person. We support, through our club membership, the United Four Wheel Drive Association, which supports Off-Roading around the world. Through this Forum, we communicate with each other, carry on club business, and assist, when possible people with questions about their Cherokee and how to modify it. Running this Forum is not free to run, and to tell the truth, without a significant donation of time and server space by Glenn, it would be much diminished right now.

If you are looking for a service club, or an extension to the FSM, you are joining for the wrong reasons and should not join. If you decide whether or not to join based on a bad answer in OEM, then, please, please, please, do not join!
If however, you seek the comradery of people who also own a Cherkee, camp, fish, hunt wheel, and are by far some of the nicest and most talented folks you will ever meet, then climb on board :D

I think that with all the discussion happening here, and in the members area, something positive will grow out of this thread :)

[jeepinxj01]

Actually, regardless of the banter, we are extremely empethetic to the newbie cause, at least I am. Every time I log in, I examine the places I visit, the visit the OEM and MOD forums to see if there is a question I can pickup there. I usually provide a detailed outline of the proceedure...if I have the time. And that my friend is the crux, if we have the time.

As I stated, if you are stranded in timbuck-fudge Neb and need assistance, do like River did and say you are stranded and need assistance. You will increase your chances of getting a positive response.

I don't want to sound contrite about the membership issue. I would like to have every member who is not in Red, become a member and support this Club, UFWDA, and this Forum.

NAXJA is not an auto club like AAA. We are not an extension of Damlier Chrysler. We sure the f*ck are not Wal-Mart! ;)

We are a club of Cherokee owners who like to get together, on the web, and in person. We support, through our club membership, the United Four Wheel Drive Association, which supports Off-Roading around the world. Through this Forum, we communicate with each other, carry on club business, and assist, when possible people with questions about their Cherokee and how to modify it. Running this Forum is not free to run, and to tell the truth, without a significant donation of time and server space by Glenn, it would be much diminished right now.

If you are looking for a service club, or an extension to the FSM, you are joining for the wrong reasons and should not join. If you decide whether or not to join based on a bad answer in OEM, then, please, please, please, do not join!
If however, you seek the comradery of people who also own a Cherkee, camp, fish, hunt wheel, and are by far some of the nicest and most talented folks you will ever meet, then climb on board :D

I think that with all the discussion happening here, and in the members area, something positive will grow out of this thread :)


Sorry for the Wal-Mart reference. Sore subject for me....Anyway........I don't use the forums as a FSM or service club, I use it to learn and to get a damn good laugh. There's some funny stuff posted on here. The point to what I wrote was....there are some folks in "RED" who are not empahtic to the ones in "BLACK," and will say SEARCH and leave it at that. You have a guy who has a post count of 3 and asks a question; hell give him the answer and then direct him to search in the future. You have a guy w/ a much higher post count who has a FAQ then that's a little different story.

I hope something positive will come of this thread. I just hate seeing some of these newbs getting flamed all to hell and never getting the answer to their questions. Just being told to search. Like I said...an FAQ sticky would be awesome and would help w/ it all I could....even though I'm not a member.

As far as my membership; I removed the lift on my XJ so my wife would be "happy" driving it and my DD is now a TJ. I'd love to join just for the comradery <sp> and God knows I love to fly-fish. I doubt a TJ would go over too well. :nono:

[WB9YZU]

Sorry for the Wal-Mart reference. Sore subject for me....Anyway........I don't use the forums as a FSM or service club, I use it to learn and to get a damn good laugh. There's some funny stuff posted on here. The point to what I wrote was....there are some folks in "RED" who are not empahtic to the ones in "BLACK," and will say SEARCH and leave it at that. You have a guy who has a post count of 3 and asks a question; hell give him the answer and then direct him to search in the future. You have a guy w/ a much higher post count who has a FAQ then that's a little different story.

I hope something positive will come of this thread. I just hate seeing some of these newbs getting flamed all to hell and never getting the answer to their questions. Just being told to search. Like I said...an FAQ sticky would be awesome and would help w/ it all I could....even though I'm not a member.

As far as my membership; I removed the lift on my XJ so my wife would be "happy" driving it and my DD is now a TJ. I'd love to join just for the comradery <sp> and God knows I love to fly-fish. I doubt a TJ would go over too well. :nono:

Good points to consider :)

Well, you just have to have an XJ, you don't have to wheel it :D
I have seen a Wrangler or two on a NAXJA trail ride; nothing at was ever said :)

[jeepinxj01]

Good points to consider :)

Well, you just have to have an XJ, you don't have to wheel it :D
I have seen a Wrangler or two on a NAXJA trail ride; nothing at was ever said :)


I guess I owe some membership money. :)

Like I said, I hope something good comes of this thread. There's more than just XJ stuff here. Thanks.

KyS

[Spudboy]

Since I've been lurking on the Yotatech forum, I've found that they have a sticky at the top of the forum where some good soul has assembled most of the common questions into an FAQ. I'm sure it took a lot of time, but I found many of my questions already answered and in one place. They also put links in there and a lot of basic tech.

I misspoke - its Pirate that has the stickies. YotaTech has a tech article section (open to everyone to read) and has a feature that finds similar threads and lists them at the bottom of the page. Very cool - I don't know how that works, but it is vBulletin also.

[87manche]

I misspoke - its Pirate that has the stickies. YotaTech has a tech article section (open to everyone to read) and has a feature that finds similar threads and lists them at the bottom of the page. Very cool - I don't know how that works, but it is vBulletin also.
NAXJA has the same feature at the bottom of the page, at least it does in the default red n gray skin that I'm in.
The faq/tech forum is the only thing missing.

[creeperjeep]

I know im a prick to say this but,,,,,,
I dont see a problem with telling the lazy or newb to search, It seems like if you are too nice, then some people cant take the subtle hint.
As it is now you dont see the majority of the 30+ posters posting stuff that was covered in the last 5 minutes or dont feel like searching posts.

Take pirate for instance, they have the biggest flaming army in the BB world and its almost like the newbies are scared to post ( which it shouldnt be) but it keeps the majority of the worthless stuff out.
But then again at the moment you have to be a paying member to search.

All Im saying is there needs to be some kind of education system the puts the point across that youre just wasting bandwidth with your "too lazy" and common topics. This in addition to a good FAQ and searching tutorial should be the way to go.

But then again, if youre too lazy to search, I doubt youre gonna read the FAQs................................err
Like Ron said, I like to help someone out with a topic that jumps out at me, that I know the answer to, but I am going to ignore the stupid posts with vague questions that make no sense.
How am I supposed to troubleshoot something that you hears but cant describe?
When I learn I like to learn WHY. I dont want the answer because it is what it is. So basically I think people should be teaching others to troubleshoot along with the answer.

And the whole BLACK/RED name thing...I try not to create a prejudice but,,its like a status symbol and it shows that you are dedicated to the club. That you support this information bank, blah blah.

Eh, I think Im done with this thread, Im frustrated

[jdougn]

Viewpoint of a NEWBIE

A sense of friendship and helpfulness is why I came here. It is what will keep me here. Flaming is why I'm not somewhere else.

In the "searches" I've done on NAXJA many of them come up with dozens of pages. The vast majority of the posts are totally usless. So, when I say I'm too "lazy" to search perhaps it means I don't want to read 26 pages of drivel and off-topics.

I came to NAXJA because some of my friends are here, I can learn huge amounts about building my XJ, and when I get stuck there's someone to help.

For those that are all bothered by newbies asking questions:
Consider responding to questions you are interested in and leave the rest alone.
What is the point to getting all worked up because some newbie, who obviously doesn't know the ropes, asks a question?
If you must tell the newbie to "search" first at least do the search first yourself to find out if the search actually answers the questions!
Get the FAQ going and then all you have to do is post the link, then you can tell him he's stupid.
Probably been said before, but perhaps a form could be used to start any new question in tech forums.

But, please don't flame my admitedly stupid a@@ just because I'm new and I don't know your rules or how I'm supposed to behave on your forum. Unless of course, you don't want newbies here.

Just my .o2
Doug

[5-90]

Viewpoint of a NEWBIE

A sense of friendship and helpfulness is why I came here. It is what will keep me here. Flaming is why I'm not somewhere else.

In the "searches" I've done on NAXJA many of them come up with dozens of pages. The vast majority of the posts are totally usless. So, when I say I'm too "lazy" to search perhaps it means I don't want to read 26 pages of drivel and off-topics.

I came to NAXJA because some of my friends are here, I can learn huge amounts about building my XJ, and when I get stuck there's someone to help.

For those that are all bothered by newbies asking questions:
Consider responding to questions you are interested in and leave the rest alone.
What is the point to getting all worked up because some newbie, who obviously doesn't know the ropes, asks a question?
If you must tell the newbie to "search" first at least do the search first yourself to find out if the search actually answers the questions!
Get the FAQ going and then all you have to do is post the link, then you can tell him he's stupid.
Probably been said before, but perhaps a form could be used to start any new question in tech forums.

But, please don't flame my admitedly stupid a@@ just because I'm new and I don't know your rules or how I'm supposed to behave on your forum. Unless of course, you don't want newbies here.

Just my .o2
Doug


Which is why I tend to react the way I do. All of us were "n00bs" once, but we learned, and we grew out of it.

If something has been asked over and over again, and I don't feel like answering, I'll usually say so. I'll also give some tips on searching - since it's the strings that I'd key in to find the thread and give you the link (but if I do that you won't get any practise searching now, will you?) I enjoy teaching - but to me, teaching is not "giving the answer." I try to make people think and use their heads for something other than an ear spacer - which is why I respond the way I do.

Granted, that's just me, and I'm only one man - but it's a start. I try not to get into "Search or Die, n00b!" mode, but if something's been done to death, I've got no trouble saying so (consider that a warning that you'll have to wade through a bunch of search pages...)

Also, the FAQs we get are why the FAQ Project is underway, and why I'm contributing to it (and I'll finish writing once I've got finals out of the way...) I'm also willing to learn enough Vbulletin (if someone sends me the manual for our version - or a link to it online) to dig through things and create an Archive of sorts - make it a "first place to look."

If we restrict the Archive I've got partially-formed in my mind, we're going to get a lot more "n00b" questions than we do now - ditto the FAQ section. Both should be open, so we can tell people to start there, and there should be enough room in the title line for a descriptive line on what you'll get when you click the link. Contributing monikers need not be included in the final synthesis - that's a double-edged sword, IMO.

Still, the idea here is to help people learn, and who ever learned anything by being handed the answers fully-formed? There has to be some amount of "search" referencing going on, or they'll never learn how to use it. I see no reason why we can't be civil about it, since most people we're seeing online (in general) probably can't use Google effectively, either. I blame education these days - allowing calculators in maths classes resulted in brain atrophy, y'ask me. There's something to be said for using pencil, paper, and your noodle to work these things out, y'know?

5-90

[Glenn B]

I'm also willing to learn enough Vbulletin (if someone sends me the manual for our version - or a link to it online) to dig through things and create an Archive of sorts - make it a "first place to look."
5-90

As I already posted, that part is handled already. It is a non issue. There is no "manual" to send you if you are simply curious. However, you can just go to their site and read it. They even have an Admin demo you can play with. But, we are good to go on this end. Just waiting on content, not a new method to deliver it. :)

[5-90]

The vbulletin part is handled. :) The content is up to the FAQ Team....

Cool - who can I help, and how?

I don't suppose an offline version of the archive can be had for faster offline searching and compilation?

5-90

[5-90]

As I already posted, that part is handled already. It is a non issue. There is no "manual" to send you if you are simply curious. However, you can just go to their site and read it. They even have an Admin demo you can play with. But, we are good to go on this end. Just waiting on content, not a new method to deliver it. :)

Gah - I'd just seen your other reference (and answered it as well!), so this is probably going to be redundant...

I'm not looking for a "new delivery method," but to find a more efficient way to cull through what we've got, filter out the wheat from the chaff, and compile the useful bits. Then, I could get with the site admin (you, as I recall,) and you/we could figure out how to present it.

I just didn't want to "reinvent the wheel," and just because I'm willing to devote time to this doesn't mean that I still don't want to find the most efficient way I can to do it - which would make me more productive, and benefit everyone who needs it, no?

So, whatever I can do to help, let me know. Once I get finals out of the way in a fortnight, I'm taking the summer off, and I'll have time.

5-90

[reliablestv]

i may be outa line here,especialy since this is my first post,but i think the answer is not to answer there questions. i have been in the automotive field for many years now i have trained several great apprentices into jounymanship. if i answerd all there questions they would never learn. so i started to ask them questions easy ones they do some checking then come back but you know the great reward is if you ask the right questions they will answer there own question. now instead of telling them how to work im teaching them how to think and answer there own questions. that is what a true teacher does, you will not always be there to ask questions

[Glenn B]

Gah - I'd just seen your other reference (and answered it as well!), so this is probably going to be redundant...

I'm not looking for a "new delivery method," but to find a more efficient way to cull through what we've got, filter out the wheat from the chaff, and compile the useful bits. Then, I could get with the site admin (you, as I recall,) and you/we could figure out how to present it.

I just didn't want to "reinvent the wheel," and just because I'm willing to devote time to this doesn't mean that I still don't want to find the most efficient way I can to do it - which would make me more productive, and benefit everyone who needs it, no?

So, whatever I can do to help, let me know. Once I get finals out of the way in a fortnight, I'm taking the summer off, and I'll have time.

5-90

Culling through anything on the site is simply not possible offline, nor online. It is all database driven, vB is simply a user friendly fomat to manipulate data in the mysql database.

To sort through the "wheat and chaff" a number of people have been enlisted to do that, or write original articles. That is about as efficient as it can get... strength in numbers, divide up subjects, etc... That is all ongoing as I recall... but I do not keep up with the ongoing day to day works of the FAQ project. :)

More than that, I will not get in to here in public. Discussions have been had with those heading the FAQ project, and a direction established. Public forums are not the place for me to discuss the ongoing projects that I am not directly involved in. :)

[5-90]

Culling through anything on the site is simply not possible offline, nor online. It is all database driven, vB is simply a user friendly fomat to manipulate data in the mysql database.

To sort through the "wheat and chaff" a number of people have been enlisted to do that, or write original articles. That is about as efficient as it can get... strength in numbers, divide up subjects, etc... That is all ongoing as I recall... but I do not keep up with the ongoing day to day works of the FAQ project. :)

More than that, I will not get in to here in public. Discussions have been had with those heading the FAQ project, and a direction established. Public forums are not the place for me to discuss the ongoing projects that I am not directly involved in. :)

See, that was the logical step I was missing! I downloaded a copy of the .chm manual for vbulletin (v3.0 and v3.5, since I wasn't sure at the time which I needed) and I'll read up on them anyhow. Could you put my name in the hat if the guys working on it now need help?

5-90

[5-90]

i may be outa line here,especialy since this is my first post,but i think the answer is not to answer there questions. i have been in the automotive field for many years now i have trained several great apprentices into jounymanship. if i answerd all there questions they would never learn. so i started to ask them questions easy ones they do some checking then come back but you know the great reward is if you ask the right questions they will answer there own question. now instead of telling them how to work im teaching them how to think and answer there own questions. that is what a true teacher does, you will not always be there to ask questions

You're not out of line - but I think you're right for the wrong reason. Think of the Biblical proverb, "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach him to fish, you feed him for life." I prefer to teach a man to fish than to give him a fish - which (in this case) often requires giving partial answers to stimulate the little grey cells. The more stimulated they are over time, the smaller the partial answer gets - until I don't have to give them anything, because they're thinking on their own.

The state of public education to-day only contributes to the ranks of the "hard of thinking" - between "bolstering self-esteem," "teaching to the test," and "spoon-feeding," it's no wonder that I sent my kids to public schools, but taught them what they really needed to know - and how to think for themselves - at home after hours. I wasn't impressed with what they were learning in school anyhow, but it also exposed them to other people for several years, which I couldn't do at home.

5-90

[Kittrell]

......but it also exposed them to other people for several years, which I couldn't do at home.

5-90

Exactly. Social Skills is largely the only reason that I see any real benefit from attending a public school. You can teach them everything they need to know from home, except how to be a person among people.............:lecture:

[87manche]

Could you put my name in the hat if the guys working on it now need help?

5-90
x2
I spend enough time on here, I might as well make myself useful.