four link conversion

[Led]

Well after taking my XJ back down to 35s I decided I wasn't happy with the performance of the rear suspention. Then while I was down at D and C Extreme's shop I seen their Scout rear coil kit getting ready to ship. woo hoo that looks like it could easily be adapted to an XJ. So I talked to Damian and we decided to try it . If things work out this will be avalible thru him as a Fairly idiot proof weld on kit with everything but the coils. The arms are about 35"s long and the frame brackets are 31"s and really beef an area that was getting real hammered by rocks. here is a pic of the arms and the frame bracket.Note the notched area is to go around my rock rail mount that were already welded in.

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Short Bus
http://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aen.sized.jpg

[vintagespeed]

Sure, it's some tubing & a few heims..........um that'd work with about any rig. Just watch your back around those Scout guys. hehe.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I'm not sure how the geometry will work out, but I like what's shown there. Any pics of the rear end bracketry? Show us the finished product too, eh? Jeff

[Led]

Should have new pics tonight, forgot my camera last night. Had every thing mounted up minus the springs and shocks last night. pinion angle stay nice and pointed at the diff thru the whole range of motion.
Led

[MaXJohnson]

The lack of any rubber to isolate noise and vibration says trail-only. Is that your plan?

[Led]

Nope I plan on driving it to Moab in October!!
Led

[Crunch]

Hey Led,
Just looked at this setup on CO4x4 on the Scout. Looks sweeeeet!
What axles have you gone with or have you stuck with the big stuff you had?
When you had 35s on before, you had RE drop brackets. Are you still running those, or did you fab up long or mid arms?
Sorry for being so nosy, just haven't seen your junk in a while and hope to see you in Moab.
Thanks,
Crunch

ps- I know you are not his baby-sitter, but what's Furlong been up to?

[Led]

He's around just workin way to much

[Led]

getting closerhttp://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aeq.sized.jpg http://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aet.sized.jpg

[juicexj24]

Must say, pretty sweet set up. Would look nice in XJ number 2. Juice

[M. Lake]

Would that be a 4 link or a trianglated 3 link?

[KarmirXJ]

yes that does not look like a 4 link, its a triangulated 3 link.

a does not look like a promising Daily driver... I stick to my leaves on this one. maybe when I get a beater Ill start thinking of triangulation:D

[M. Lake]

Well I have to say that I like it. Besides the rubber inserts mentioned eariler, why not for a DD? Would there be track alingment issues from this?

[Beezil]

are your shocks still long enough?

if not, have any plans?

[Led]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KarmirXJ
yes that does not look like a 4 link, its a triangulated 3 link.
[/QUOTE
How is this not a 4 link??? Why do you say it will not work on the road?
Led

[Led]

Originally posted by Beezil
are your shocks still long enough?

if not, have any plans?
Right now the shocks apear too long for compresion and not long enough for droop.that one of the thing gonna work on tonight.
Led

[4ward]

Can you give us a good side shot of it that is well lit up? I believe there is a person or 2 on here that would like to see how it looks. Also, where are the coils going to be mounted?

Sean

[JnJ]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
Can you give us a good side shot of it that is well lit up? I believe there is a person or 2 on here that would like to see how it looks. Also, where are the coils going to be mounted?

Sean

Yup, I'm watching with interest. Would like to see the angles and how the springs will mount.
BTW, isn't it really a 4 link? To be a three link wouldn't the uppers actually have to come together as one before attaching to the axle? As it is, the uppers are two seperate links.

[Beezil]

so you have enough shock travel at least.....that's good!

I'm following closely behind you, and I'm assuming my shocks might not work out.....

was tryin to get ideas...

one-fugg, how bout you? are shocks going to be an issue for you?

[4ward]

The only issue I'm having with shocks is finding someone who can get them in time. I'm going with 14" travel bilstiens. Was wanting 5100's, but it looks like I've got to step up to 7100's.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Led
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KarmirXJ
yes that does not look like a 4 link, its a triangulated 3 link.
[/QUOTE
How is this not a 4 link??? Why do you say it will not work on the road?
Led

no your right my bad... I didnt look twice... from a glance they looked like a wishbone. now that im looking twice I see the links converge but still are seperate. I sat in a few with a 4 link on the road, I didnt really get to look at what the guys did or kind of work was done, But I KNOW they where 4 link in the back and there there was very noticable difference in stablility between leafs and links, IMHO leafs with an antiwrap are a bit more stable than links.

just my opinion though its not stamped in stone

[M. Lake]

A four link is like the front set up and uses a track bar to hold centered. During flex, one upper CA is fighting the other. The axle wants to twist, but the other upper is fighting it. A 3 link would be taking one of the upper CA off. Becouse you have two points starting from the fram rail, coming to a point on the center section (or hoop added above it) making a triangle. It helps to cut down on rear track movement.

As for the DD question, I don't know, I would like the answer myself. I realy like the frame rail were the links tie in.

[Beezil]

The only issue I'm having with shocks is finding someone who can get them in time. I'm going with 14" travel bilstiens. Was wanting 5100's, but it looks like I've got to step up to 7100's.

go rancho or go home.

[MaXJohnson]

Looks cool, Led.

Hope you get this link count issue resolved before the Earth stops spinning. :rolleyes:

Are you planning on a Currie Anti-Rock or some such?

[JnJ]

Originally posted by M. Lake
A four link is like the front set up and uses a track bar to hold centered.

It is my understanding that one of the reasons to trianglate the upperlinks is to do away with the need for a trackbar. Would a trackbar be needed on this design?

[4ward]

No track bar needed on a triangulated 4 link. Otherwise it would be called a 5 link, although there's only a few of us out there that will actually call it that.

[M. Lake]

True. A real trainglated 3 link would have something like a triangle with one heim joint conted to the axle. Then there is 3 links connected to the axle. IMHO

I don't know why it has not seen done.

[Kaczman]

I'm running 14" 5100's with room for ~5"' uptravel and 14ish down (my jack stands aren't tall enough). The coils are mounted under the frame, with the axle moved back 5 inches. I'm sure there a couple more pics floating around, but I can re-post 'em if needed for ideas.
-Jon

[Nik]

Hey led that looks sick as hell, pretty sweet what you are thinking up. . . . damn that looks good. By the way thanks with the help on the DW problem, Turns out all of this shit is a out of round tire. Just got my spare tonight and I can hit 50 without any vibes. THe unit bearings and joints were cool. THanks again man.

NIk

[Led]

here are some flex pics took it for a short drive tonight.feels good so far.my 9010s seem to be a good compromise on up and down travel. I m usin stock XJ coils right now might try some other options to get it dialed right where i want it. All in all very promising design.http://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aex.sized.jpg http://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aev.sized.jpg http://www.jeepbarracks.com/albums/album08/aey.sized.jpg

[Dazz]

Led,
Do you have any closeup pics of the spring perches ?
:eek:

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by Led
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KarmirXJ
yes that does not look like a 4 link, its a triangulated 3 link.
[/QUOTE
How is this not a 4 link??? Why do you say it will not work on the road?
Led

Cause they've never fabbed anything but their hair. That looks killer, good job.

And YES peeps that would be consider a triangulated 4 link. IE. there's 1,2,3,4 links attaching the axle to the body/frame. :rolleyes:

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
no your right my bad... I didnt look twice... from a glance they looked like a wishbone. now that im looking twice I see the links converge but still are seperate. I sat in a few with a 4 link on the road, I didnt really get to look at what the guys did or kind of work was done, But I KNOW they where 4 link in the back and there there was very noticable difference in stablility between leafs and links, IMHO leafs with an antiwrap are a bit more stable than links.

just my opinion though its not stamped in stone

Dude, that's just plain ignorance. A 4 link locating system does nothing for suspension 'ride' and stability. The ride would be handled by the suspension (the part that suspends the body above the axle) this would be the leafs or coils that provide the rear ride. The vehicle you rode in might have been sitting on coils or leafs (1/4 or 1/2 elliptical) that were not the proper spring rate for the vehicle. There's alot more to setting up a suspension then just welding on some links & sticking a pair of springs in there........ If it was a coil sprung rear (most likely) then it was probably a poorly rated set of coils as having a custom set of coils wound to match your application is WAY expensive and I doubt it was coilovers because of the big holes you have to cut in the fenderwell to fit them. Either way a swaybar of some kind should be used to help coils react more like leafs in the corners. :angel:

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
No track bar needed on a triangulated 4 link. Otherwise it would be called a 5 link, although there's only a few of us out there that will actually call it that.

Well yes & no, that all depends on the degree to which the triangulated arms (upper or lower) are angled relative to the parallel arms. The stock XJ front is a triangulated 5 link that will not work (essentially) without the TB.

[Led]

Well I finaly got some time to type.First a huge thanks to Damion and Bill at D and C for letting me guinie pig the XJ 4 link!!! My impresions are this. It is probably the best handling lifted XJ I have ever driven icluding those only lifted 3 or 4 inches.there is NO rear tail swag at all. I was running 70 down HWY 115 no prob. There is alot less body roll than with leafs. Its lifted about 8"s. On the trail it is about perfect It flexes like mad and puts the power to the ground where belongs. It does not have the inherent problem of trying to lift the drivers front like many rear coiled vechiles.The spring rate on the rear could stand to be a little stiffer to balance it with front more and I'm working on that. The jeep does not creak as much off road as it used to ( which was alot )All and all I am very pleased with it. Also I only hit the lower link once the whole day and that was on the exit.
Once again A big thanks to DandCExtreme Here is a link to more pics Well I finaly got some time to type.First a huge thanks to Damion and Bill at D and C for letting me guinie pig the XJ 4 link!!! My impresions are this. It is probably the best handling lifted XJ I have ever driven icluding those only lifted 3 or 4 inches.there is NO rear tail swag at all. I was running 70 down HWY 115 no prob. There is alot less body roll than with leafs. Its lifted about 8"s. On the trail it is about perfect It flexes like mad and puts the power to the ground where belongs. It does not have the inherent problem of trying to lift the drivers front like many rear coiled vechiles.The spring rate on the rear could stand to be a little stiffer to balance it with front more and I'm working on that. The jeep does not creak as much off road as it used to ( which was alot )All and all I am very pleased with it. Also I only hit the lower link once the whole day and that was on the exit.
Once again A big thanks to DandCExtreme
Led

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Short Bus

Led

--------------------
Short Bus
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/4link_l.jpg http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/4link_j.jpg

[Led]

here is the link for the rest of the pics
http://www.dandcextreme.com/club/trailrides/8.23.03.html

Led

[Bentonedge]

oh my god that is sweet. any idea how much they want for that set up. what all is included cani have a number? i am just getting ready to do a 8" lift and was going to go with BOR leafs but that looks sweet. i got some money burning a whole tell the price. or a number. please please please

[vintagespeed]

That's about $200 in materials.

[Led]

no I don't know the price yet but I will find out tomorow. VS its over $250 just in Aroura Hiems. add inserts ,lock nuts,dom, and the machine work its a bit more

[Led]

heres a link to there web site http://www.dandcextreme.com/

[SeanP]

Led, excellent work! You don't know how close I came to doing this this summer. I spent more time fabbing my vertical bar bar style anti-wrap thingy than you probably took to do that very nice bit of work :)

I have researched 4 link rears on PBB for a while. I have learned quite a bit about geometry and anti-squat and anti-lift. I am assuming that the guys at D&C did their homework on this? You will know if they did the first time you climb a waterfall.

I think that it will be cool to do this with coilovers mounted up thru the floor.

Also, how do you get 5" uptravel and 14" down travel out of a 14" shock? am i missing something?

SeanP

[macgyvr]

What coils does that kit use? i'm just curious....

i'm going to switch to bilsten 5100 series myself as they will run upside down...

mac 'trend setter' gyvr

http://pics.montypics.com/macgyvr100/2003-08-25/1061798833_Dscf0039.jpg

[Led]

the shocks are mounted strait under the factory upper mount. which allows more travel at the wheel. right now its using stock ZJ 6cyl fronts, just a little soft. Gonna try some others soon.
Led

[Beezil]

Mac, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH ALL THAT ROAD-BUILDING????

Jeeze! you guys should have tossed those rocks!!!!!

"doesn't look like a crack to me"

[macgyvr]

Those rocks were there when we got there. All the trails we ran we didnt stack one rock anywhere, but there were some places that looked like a hwy cause of the rocks stacked.

I think EJS is the cause of the super hwys on the trails....

btw, with that pic i had a broken front upper control arm and was connected, and had two lug nuts holding on the front drivers side tire...

mac '250 in parts and repairs in moab' gyvr

[offroadman83]

Did anybody find out the price yet? I really liked what Led said about its road handling as well as its capability, and I might give something like this a try someday.---Kyle

[Grant]

1250 for parts
2000 installed

[offroadman83]

:eek: Ouch! I think I will eventually learn to make it before I buy it----Kyle

[JnJ]

Originally posted by offroadman83
:eek: Ouch! I think I will eventually learn to make it before I buy it----Kyle

Haha, agreed :D

[vintagespeed]

I like the setup, but you've gotta be kidding on the price. $1250 for 4 pieces of tubing, 8 heims and some plate? I know those guys gotta make a profit but damn.

[Blix]

Forgive me if I am stating the already stated, didn't really want to read through the entire thread, but there is a great article on engineering your own 4 link in Peterson's off road July edition. It is part 2 of 2, but part 1 in June's edition is just talking about whether or not it's for you. You obviousely have already made this decision!
I too will be going the 4 link route with a '83 beater XJ this winter.

I hope everything goes good for ya!


-Steve

[Beezil]

an 83 huh?

that'll be interesting....

[Flowers]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
I like the setup, but you've gotta be kidding on the price. $1250 for 4 pieces of tubing, 8 heims and some plate? I know those guys gotta make a profit but damn.

Is everything included? Such as, parts stated above + coils, shocks, perches, etc.? Actually, $1250 would be a decent price. It appears to be well engineered.

Led, Do you have any side view static photos with one of the rear tires removed? It could be the photo, but on the first page it looks like the uppers are lower on the frame side than the axle side.

Flowers

[Blix]

yeah.....we're gonna solve the internal cage/external cage dilemma and cut the top off, so the cage will be both! Still gonna retain the 4 doors though.......they just won't all open in the same direction as stock.

Just 'cause suicide doors kick ass.

-Steve

[Led]

I was a little sticker shocked myself so I sat down and looked at the break down on the parts. JB Richard says you only use recycled parts! Your post of only 250 worth of material was way off. lets break it down then tell me what it should cost
8 3/4 hiems
16 (8 pairs) missalignment washers
6' 2.25 .25 wall dom
6' 1.50 .25 wall dom
3' 2.00 .25 wall dom
8 threaded inserts
4 axle mounts machined
6' 4x4 .25 wall box steel
4 frame mounts machined
8 grade 8 1/2"x4 bolts,lflats , lock nuts
8 jam nuts
2 upper coil mounts with bump stops
2 lowwer coil mounts
Now add labor for the bending ,welding , and notching
On top off that add in the piece of mind that you KNOW the system will work and how it will work.
Led

[Led]

Flowers its everything but the coils and shocks. you should be able to get the coils for free as they are just stock xj fronts. I will take some better pics tomorow afternoon.
Led

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by Led
......... JB Richard says you only use recycled parts............
Led
Yep, you'd be surprised what you can make out of 2 old dustpans, a piece of sewer pipe and some rusty gate hinges..........but we're not talking about Richard's rig....:)

[JKTXJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
an 83 huh?

that'll be interesting....

Yeah, please post some pics of this 83 XJ :D

[Blix]

no prob......before we start I will post some before pics and keep everyone updated.


-Steve

[Blix]

Oh by the way I mispoke on the '83, It's not a Chief, its an '84

[atowley]

Flowers its everything but the coils and shocks. you should be able to get the coils for free as they are just stock xj fronts. I will take some better pics tomorow afternoon.
Led


no coils, but does it include the upper and lower coil mounts???

[Led]

yes it includes the mounts and bump stops

[MuddinXJ]

i like this. will be contacting d and c this week or next week. gona get this done this summer.

[Redcbr007]

isnt this post almost a year old? I think were running out of topics :)


-Red

[xjj33p3r]

Any updates on how this conversion has been working?

[Ramsey]

isnt this post almost a year old? I think were running out of topics :)


-Red

[Led]

Any updates on how this conversion has been working?
Built a new jeep. would change some thing like add limiting straps ,trap the coils at both ends little stiffer spring, though the last one I used (a cut down 4") worked pretty well.Still running the original hiems and arms from that build on the new truggy.