Project RAM assist

[vintagespeed]

I've got a good Chief 2 x 8 ram for my assist, now the problem is where to mount it. I'd like to see pics of ram assist setups and please HOME BREW, I dont need to know how the AGR ram is mounted per the AGR instructions, I want to see REAL FAB. I'm thinking of mounting it off the pitman arm to the pass. side frame rail with a bracket. Which sucks cause I already removed my custom trackbar mount to make room for it on the axle. :rolleyes:

[Bones]

First off, I have not done the Hydro assist steering yet but I am in the planning stage.
I was trying to figure the same thing out as you. The big factor is your present type of steering.
Are you running a "Y" set up, Over/Under, or high steer set up?

I do know you want the ram as close to parallel to the tierod as possible in your application. I had planned to run mine either off the over the top track bar mount or off the area near the pumpkin though that may change when I do the planned high steer (not sure if going Terra or WJ set up yet).

If you are having problems with mounting West Texas Off Road may be able to help.

Bones :skull1:

[BrettM]

First off, this is a mod I have am going to do sometime soon and I have done lots of research for it (there's TONS on PBB) and from everything I've read a 2" cylinder will have lots of power behind it, but won't push fast enough. It is highly reccomended to use a 1" or 1.5" cylinder, especially if it sees street time. Yes, this kinda sucks cause 2x8 cylinders are only about $60 and it is practically impossibe to find a 1.5". West Texas Offroad has them for $150. I still need to go check out some hydraulic shop and see what they have, I've only looked mail order and online so far.

Second, it is much better to mount the ram to the axle so that it is pushing from the axle to the axle. If you mount from frame to pitman arm you are adding additional forces to an already weak area. It is generally reccomended to apply the force closest to where it is needed.

Third, you can find TONS of pictures of homebrew setups at PBB

[xjjunkie]

not to be stupid "PBB" ?????


scot

[Ghost]

Pirate Bulitin Board?

[BrettM]

Originally posted by Ghost
Pirate Bulitin Board?

Yep, www.pirate4x4.com/forum

If you go over there and register, please do lots of searching and make use of their Newbie forum. They like to keep the tech to a very high level and get ticked when people ask questions that have been asked many times before. I know Hydro Assist has been covered in about every way, shape and form, so just search.

[vintagespeed]

Been on pirate for a few years now, prefer to get XJ tech from XJ guys........

I had heard about the slower response with the 2x8 but I'm hoping it wont be too big of an issue on the street. I needed the larger dia. to turn the 38s in the rocks.

Steering is hi-steer on a D44 w/flat top knuckles, the frame is plated with the SBS from ORGS. The hi-steer presents more challenge because the tie-rod will be so high above the axle.

[BrettM]

post a picture of your front axle and then we can draw different ideas on it. I have a D44 and will be running hi-steer when I do my hydro assist and I dont' think it will be too much problem, but then again I have leaves.

One thing I've been thinkin about in order to use a 2" cylinder is to mount it on more of an angle (not so parallel to the axle tube and tie-rod). This will effectively make the ram quicker and less powerful, kinda like a 1.5". My main concern with this is that I don't want it to push too hard on the tie-rod and bend it, so I'll have to make my tie-rod real thick.

As far as wanting the extra strength of a 2" for your 38s, that really isn't an issue. Go search around on PBB and you will hear of many guys saying they have 1 finger steering with 40s using a 1.5" cylinder.

Again I say it is a very bad idea to do this mounted to the "frame"...

I can understand wanting to post XJ tech on NAXJA as this is certainly the best, most knowledgable group around for XJs. However, hydro-assist has very little to do with XJs and has only ever been done on a handful of XJs. You would be much better off posting (or just searching) over on PBB. Ask what people think of mounting from frame to pitman, I'm sure many people will advise you not to.

[Goatman]

This months issue of JP magazine, the one with Farmer Matt's XJ featured in it, has an article about a VERY cool CJ. It is extremely well built, and it has the hydraulic cylinder running from the frame to the pitman arm. The frame would have to strong enough, and I agree that the force could be best applied against the axle housing, but this is a very well designed rig and he's making it work. I think it's a very interesting design concept, and worth thinking through.

My box is tapped for the hydraulic fittings, just need to get a cylinder and hoses to hook it up. I also need to figure out where on the D44 to mount it.

I don't get the comment about mounting the ram on an angle, I don't see how that would make it faster. It definitely would increase the risk of bending the tie rod.

[BrettM]

As for mounting the ram from frame to pitman, I have not doubt it would work, the question is for how long? the uni-body isn't as bad as some people think, but don't kid yourself, it's not the best. Also, think of all the extra force you are putting through your draglink, wouldnt' you rather have that pushing just on the tie-rod where it is needed. Also, also, if you have a tire up against a rock and keep turning into it, there will be a TON of force going through your trackbar (or however you keep your axle located laterally). If you have the ram on the axle to tie-rod, then the axle is mostly pushing against itself and not through the trackbar.

Originally posted by Goatman

I don't get the comment about mounting the ram on an angle, I don't see how that would make it faster. It definitely would increase the risk of bending the tie rod.

with the ram parallel to the axle and tie-rod, 1 inch of ram travel equals 1 inch of tie-rod travel. by placing the ram on an angle, you could make .75 inch of travel at the ram equal 1 inch of travel at the tie-rod. effectively this would make the ram faster and less powerful.

you would have to play with the angle to get the right balance, and hopefully it would be a pretty shallow angle, maybe 10 degrees, so that you don't bend your tie-rod. I think I will try this when I set mine up, I'll play with the angles until it is right, and I'll make the tie-rod BEEFY, like 1.5" quarter wall or better. If the angle is at all extreme I will abandon the idea and get a 1.5" cylinder, but I have a feeling it won't take too much angle to accomplish the desired effect.

I just thought of another problem with the putting the ram on an angle; the angle would change through it's motion and therefore change the power to speed ratio from left to right. Again, if the static angle was kept down, I think this would not even be noticable.

brett

[Goatman]

If you think the ram could hurt the frame, what's it going to do to that tie rod if mounted at an angle to it? :eek:

[vintagespeed]

I'm still on the fence, although the point about the TB taking more load with the ram on the pitman makes some sense to me. That CJ in Jp rag has a floating steering setup to allow no bumpsteer throughout the axle's range of motion. I really think this is slick & I've seen them done before, but need to do more research. It could make the inverted triangulated 3link and mechanical steering a reality. For a super beefy TR, sleeve 1.25 x .250 with 1.75 x .250 DOM, if you bend that you're having too much fun. I bent my 1.25 x .344 DOM TR, not really a bend more of a minor bow.

[4ward]

So, you'd rather break knuckles than bend your tierod?????

I run 1.5" .25"wall DOM and I've cracked a knuckle already because of this.

[Goatman]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ

I run 1.5" .25"wall DOM and I've cracked a knuckle already because of this.

Are you sure it was the knuckle, or was it your head? ;)

When it comes to breakage, you're in a different league than most...............:D :D

I'd be afraid of breaking a bolt or heim joint with a 1/2" thick tie rod, but I guess it wouldn't bend. :)

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
So, you'd rather break knuckles than bend your tierod?????

Well no, that'd be silly. :D I certainly would prefer to bend the TR before cracking/breaking a knuckle. One of the replies mentioned a crazy angled approach to the TR with the ram and using a super beefy TR, so I replied with my recipe for beef. I'm using 1.25 x .311 this time around, which is not as overkill as 1.5 x .250.

Seriously though, I've heard alot mentioned about your rig OneTon you have a site with pics or anything?

[BrettM]

let me restate that I would not even consider running a ram with any significant angle on it. I am thinking that a small angle may help.

As for the frame mounting deal, I don't see the frame strength as the biggest problem... what I really don't like is the huge side forces sent through your trackbar, wishbone, or leaves (whatever you got). Keep those forces on the axle as much as possible.

Make that ram fit on the axle, post a pic of your front end so we can toy with different ideas.

[ashmanjeepxj]

Old thread Back from the dead...

Ok I searched on NAXJ and this is one of the few Hydraulic ram threads..
The Angle Mounted ram and Mounting to the draglink has been covered, so lets move on or agree to disagree. DONE.

Other research:

Performance Steering Tech on Pirate, double ended ram: "STATIONS stuff"
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index3.html

How to increase flow and pressure from the stock jeep steering pump:
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html
(its reccomended to also add a tranny cooler when doing this flow mod)

How to drill an tap your Stock jeep steeting box, (gear box) for hydraulic lines for either a single or double ended ram assis.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/HydroAssistTap/index.html




I want to talk about RAMS....
What brand rams have you guys tried?

Im looked into the single ended rams and double ended rams, the double ended rams are better, they replace the tierod, and often are more linear then a single ended ram, meaning they are the same speed and strength for left and right hand turns. The double ended rams can be used for assist or full hydro and so can a single ram.


On my jeep I dont have clearance for a double ended ram, so it will be a single. I also drive on the street so Im not doing full hydro, only assist.

I have a 79 F350 D60 full width, with tierod in factory location. The easiest configuration for me will be a single ended ram mounted to the axle and bolted to the tierod using Ubolt straps. I want a 1.5in bore 8in stroke double acting single ended ram.

so now where to get the ram..

West texas offroad, the redneck ram, $240 total. (1.5" RAM - $150.00, 5/8" HARDWARE KIT(BOLTS, WASHERS, WELD TABS, AND LOCK NUTS), $25.00
5/8" HEIM ENDS $20.00, SET OF HOSES $45.00)
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/hydrosteering.html

Rockstomper, $225 (Ram, hydro lines, heims, nuts, tabs.)
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/ramassist.htm

Surplus Center, $83 (ram only 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4410-08&catname=hydraulic

Surpuls Center, $86 (Ram only, 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 1in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4872-08&catname=hydraulic

Surplus Center $109 double ended ram, 2.25 bore, 10.25in stroke, 1.5in shaft, would require a new pump for more volume to move this bigger bore fast enough.
This ram installed: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=200085



So far the Surplus center $86 ram looks best, or the one from Scott (rockstomper) for alittle more.

any other vendors you guys know prices on?

Thanks,

[JeepFreak21]

Damn Ashman! That was about worth the resuscitation :D
Good stuff!
Billy

Old thread Back from the dead...

Ok I searched on NAXJ and this is one of the few Hydraulic ram threads..
The Angle Mounted ram and Mounting to the draglink has been covered, so lets move on or agree to disagree. DONE.

Other research:

Performance Steering Tech on Pirate, double ended ram: "STATIONS stuff"
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index3.html

How to increase flow and pressure from the stock jeep steering pump:
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html
(its reccomended to also add a tranny cooler when doing this flow mod)

How to drill an tap your Stock jeep steeting box, (gear box) for hydraulic lines for either a single or double ended ram assis.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/HydroAssistTap/index.html




I want to talk about RAMS....
What brand rams have you guys tried?

Im looked into the single ended rams and double ended rams, the double ended rams are better, they replace the tierod, and often are more linear then a single ended ram, meaning they are the same speed and strength for left and right hand turns. The double ended rams can be used for assist or full hydro and so can a single ram.


On my jeep I dont have clearance for a double ended ram, so it will be a single. I also drive on the street so Im not doing full hydro, only assist.

I have a 79 F350 D60 full width, with tierod in factory location. The easiest configuration for me will be a single ended ram mounted to the axle and bolted to the tierod using Ubolt straps. I want a 1.5in bore 8in stroke double acting single ended ram.

so now where to get the ram..

West texas offroad, the redneck ram, $240 total. (1.5" RAM - $150.00, 5/8" HARDWARE KIT(BOLTS, WASHERS, WELD TABS, AND LOCK NUTS), $25.00
5/8" HEIM ENDS $20.00, SET OF HOSES $45.00)
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/hydrosteering.html

Rockstomper, $225 (Ram, hydro lines, heims, nuts, tabs.)
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/ramassist.htm

Surplus Center, $83 (ram only 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4410-08&catname=hydraulic

Surpuls Center, $86 (Ram only, 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 1in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4872-08&catname=hydraulic

Surplus Center $109 double ended ram, 2.25 bore, 10.25in stroke, 1.5in shaft, would require a new pump for more volume to move this bigger bore fast enough.
This ram installed: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=200085



So far the Surplus center $86 ram looks best, or the one from Scott (rockstomper) for alittle more.

any other vendors you guys know prices on?

Thanks,

[BrettM]

i've been eyeing both of the surpluscenter rams you are talking about, I am going to get the $83 one for 2 reasons, 1) the shaft is smaller, I don't think I'm going to bend it either way since it's only assist, and a smaller shaft means less difference in push/pull strength and 2) the compressed length is 1.5" shorter, which will just help to fit everything better on my Waggy D44

[ashmanjeepxj]

i've been eyeing both of the surpluscenter rams you are talking about, I am going to get the $83 one for 2 reasons, 1) the shaft is smaller, I don't think I'm going to bend it either way since it's only assist, and a smaller shaft means less difference in push/pull strength and 2) the compressed length is 1.5" shorter, which will just help to fit everything better on my Waggy D44
Thats good to know....

Ill do more research at lunch tomarrow.
Post up anything you guys in the night crew find....:D

Id like to buy something this week.

[vintagespeed]

I've got a Chief single-ended ram it's 1.5" bore x 8" stroke and an 1.125" shaft it was about $50 + a spare set of seals from surplus center.

-jb

[ashmanjeepxj]

Rock logic Ram Assist Kit: $220, (Single ended ram) 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shafts, Tabs, hoses, and rod ends. look for it in the pirate vendor showcase to get it for only $200)
http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/products/ramassist/sm_HydroAssistKit.JPG

West Texas off road, steering ram kit product review, Pirate:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/productreviews/redneckram/

West Texas off road steering ram review, mounted on dana 60 behind the axle. looks like the 2.5in bore 8in stroke ram the "lion 2500" RAM.
http://www.bc4x4.com/pr/2002/ram/

That same ram "Lion 2500" can be found at Baileynet.com: $60
http://www.baileynet.com/baileynet/productBrowse.asp?sku=219529

Bailey 250: 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in rod $125:
http://www.baileynet.com/baileynet/productBrowse.asp?sku=216253



That Bailey 250 looks like a really Nice FIND!!!

Ill add more tomarrow at lunch.

[BrettM]

what makes it better than the surpluscenter ones?

[ashmanjeepxj]

what makes it better than the surpluscenter ones?
The Bailey 250:
Bore: 1 1/2"
Stroke: 8"
Rod Diameter: 3/4"
Retracted Length: 15"
Column Load: Full PSI
Port Size: 3/8" NPTF
Pin Diameter: 3/4"
Cross Tube Length - Rod End: 1 1/2"
Cross Tube Length - Base End: 2 1/8"
PSI Rating: 2500
Piston: High grade ductile iron
Tube: Precision honed DOM 1026 material
Rod: Ground and polished chromed C-1045 steel, 75,000 PSI yield
Butt Plate: C-1045 steel
End Mounts: C-1026 steel cross tubes with grease zerk

The surpluss center equivalent ram:
SPECIFICATIONS
Double Acting
Bore/Stroke 1 1/2" x 8"
2,000 PSI max
Rod dia 3/4"
Push/Pull 3,350 / 2,650 lbs
Ports 3/8" NPT
Retracted Length 13 1/2"
Shpg 12 lbs
END MOUNTINGS
Rod End Crosstube
Pin hole 3/4"
1-1/4" cross-tube width
Base End Crosstube
Pin hole 3/4"
2" cross-tube width


The surpluss center ram is 1.5in shorter compressed length that is good.
The Bailey is rated for more pressure 2500PSI, Has greasable fittings at the bolt holes, Piston: High grade ductile iron the Surplus ram is (???),
Tube: Precision honed DOM 1026 material the surplus ram is (???),
Rod: Ground and polished chromed C-1045 steel, 75,000 PSI yield the Surplus ram is (???)

The bailey seams to be an equivalent ram in performance, but looks to be better quality materials and costs a little more.

Ill probibly get the surplus center ram and asve afew bucks, and if it wares our fast Ill get the Bailey 250.

[Danno]

Surplus center has one for a little over $100. Everything I've read really recomends this feature. I'm needing something in a couple of weeks so this is really germain info for me. Thanks, Danno

[ashmanjeepxj]

Surplus center has one for a little over $100. Everything I've read really recomends this feature. I'm needing something in a couple of weeks so this is really germain info for me. Thanks, Danno


Are you talking about the one I have linked above? a double ended ram for like $109 from surpluscenter?

Since It has a larger bore the stock pump wouldent work well with it.
I couldent find any smaller bore double ended rams?
Give me a link.

[Danno]

I'm talking about this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-5587&catname=hydraulic

[BrettM]

that's a 2.25" bore, maybe good if you're going full hydro, not for hydro assist

[Danno]

yeah, I'm looking at full hydro. Any idea how much fluid flow would be neccesary to power it?

[ashmanjeepxj]

yeah, I'm looking at full hydro. Any idea how much fluid flow would be neccesary to power it?


Dude, cmon..

I showed that exact same ram in my first post. I said I would need a bigger flow pump, and I gave a link to a thread on pirate where a guy mounted it and used an additional pump. He used it as ram assist, though It would work well for full hydro, you will have to address the 10.25in throw on it so it dosent snap one of your knuckles.

Read that thread,


This is a RAM Assist thread.

[ashmanjeepxj]

Today I ordered the
http://www.surpluscenter.com/images/p9-4410C.jpg
1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft ram from surpluss center,
$94 after shipping.


Monday Ill measure and know if I want the 3ft or 4.5ft hydraulic lines from west texas off road, they are cheep, Only $45 for the pair, either length!

Im also gonna buy the a steering box seal kit from west texas off road $45 on monday.

I already have the $20 tranny cooler on my PS pump.

Since I will rebuild, drill, and tap my own box, and modify my pump for more flow and pressure.

Im sitting at $204 for the hydro assist setup.

In 3-10 days I should have all the goods.

[Matt]

Step one: ignore any double ended ram with a rod size under 3/4" - there have been plenty that have been bent (that size works OK on a small forklift and thats about it)

You need a 2.5" to 3" bore double ender with a 1.5" min rod, preferably tapped to 3/4 -16tpi for heims - surplus center had one that fits those specs the last time I looked ~110$ so no huge price jump

Step two: mount it to the axle; the goal here is to eliminate the flex and slop of control arms, frame and track bar mounts... not induce more load to those areas!!!

Your single ender will work fine - just make sure you have enough travel in the stroke of the cylinder and that you set it up so there is a 1/4" of air space between the OEM axle stops on the knuckles (you do not want to bottom out as you will blow the knuckle off the axle tube - not necissarily the first time but it will happen - and it will be really lame)

With the single ender you will have more power to one side but the number of lock to lock turns will remain unchanged - a full hydro single ender on the street is a little weird but still drivable (mine can hit 70 OK before I reach my comfort limits)

Tap the casting as shown in the write ups and run the lines as short as possible - use steel JIC fittings except for where you enter the ram (I use an adapter that goes from NTP to JIC and is left in the ram when I pull a hose - eliminates leakage and the need to retape when pulling a line) EDIT: As for the box use straight o-ring boss fitting that convert to JIC - the o-ring will seal (not the threads) preventing excessive splitting pressure from a tapered thread cut into a casting that was not designed to be drilled and tapped in that location...

Lines should be a good power steering hose 100r5 rated (-6 JIC / 3/8" is fine) - reusable fittings are good so you can field repair hoses and just carry a few feet of extra line and some loose fittings to fix just about anything...

Synthetic power steering fluid, a cooler and a filter are all good things as well - I would not make any changes to the pump until you have driven it a few times - and even then just try drilling the orifice to 11/64" before raising the relief cartridge spring rate...

Beyond that there are only a few places a ram will actually fit - I cut a 1" hole in my home built pass side high steer arm and then made a mounting tab from 1" plate on the 3rd link wishbone mount - it is brutally strong but one other hint: Make sure your ram is mounted at the same front to back angle as your caster - makes it relatively bind free over the entire range of the knuckle...

HTH

Matt

http://home.off-road.com/~wanderingwillys/xjpics/Steering/assist_ram1.jpg

http://home.off-road.com/~wanderingwillys/xjpics/steering1.jpg

I will have to get some pics up as it sits now full hydro - just imagine the draglink gone and no pitman arm dangling down... All the rest is the same

[Matt]

I'm talking about this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-5587&catname=hydraulic

Danno the one you want is this one (unless you can drill and tap the ends on the one you listed and are running 38's and smaller - then you can use the one you linked) :

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-6185&catname=hydraulic

You will have to mod the mounts but the ends are already done to a standard 3/4" rod end (16tpi)


Max - you are forgetting that because it is double ended you need to subtract the rod volume from the bore volume - that cylinder he listed puts out 2420lbs of force at 1100psi and has a usable surface area of 2.2" squared - for comparison a 1.5" bore (.75" rod) cylinder has 1.76" on the piston side and 1.32" on the rod side

The standard 2" bore cylinder has 3.15" on the piston side and .995" on the rod side

the one I linked you to has 5.31" of working piston surface and outputs 5841lbs of force at 1100 psi (3" bore with 1.5" rod)

The OEM TC pump can do 2-3.7 (modded for flow) gpm = 462 to 855 cu" / min

To go lock to lock the larger ram needs 58.41cu" of fluid

with the OEM pump it would take 7.58 to 4.09 seconds to go lock to lock - Do you really need to go from full lock to full lock any faster than that...

With my 2" bore single ender it verges on twitchy - the orbital valve puts out 4.8 cu" per rev and the lock to lock is 4 turns in the piston side and 2.5 turns on the rod side with the the following force outputs 2365/3460lbs and the following times - (assuming I could turn the wheel that fast!) 1.54 sec/ 2.26 sec... (times are based on 500 cu" per min : aka mid range; since I have modded my pump but never measured it I was conservative)

As you can see there is a large range of ram sizes that will work - usually the limiting factor is the valve - be it orbital or the internal metering of the power steering box (I have never seen any cu"/rev data for the OEM box)

Now are you confused :roflmao:

Matt

PS: with that bigger double ended ram I would use at least 9.7 cu"/rev (5.97 truns lock to lock) orbital or possibly a 12.x cu"/rev (4.8 turns lock to lock): if you wanted really limited turns lock to lock you need a 23 to 25 cu"/ rev which would give you 2.5 turns lock to lock (but you may run into problems with the pump supplying an orbital valve metering chamber that big... :confused:

[Danno]

Thanks, that was exactly what I need for info. Now, with what you said about needing an orbital valve...what about this one? Or got any better suggestions? It looks like it might need a bigger pump!? The 3" ram looks like the ticket with what you described. now need to choose an orbital valve.


http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-5365&catname=hydraulic

On my rock crawler I'm going full hydro but on my XJ it will just be an assist. The rock crawler is what I'm buying for now. Thanks VERY much for the info and advice. Danno

[Dazz]

Matt,
Not that it will be a street rig, but have you driven your rig with the hydro setup on the street? How does it drive compare to the stock setup?

Just curious!

TIA!

[BrettM]

it may be hard to miss since he wrote so much (not dissing, I appreciate the depth of tech), but he said he can get it up to 70 before it makes him nervous and he takes it down.

[XJEEPER]

http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/

I know the guys here and Carl and Von are nearly done with an XJ version of their Toyota ram assist. Give them a yell, they've had much success with the Toy and rock rig units.........big tires don't always mean you need a big ram.

[Goatman]

I'm going to end up going to hydraulic assist, especially after hitting a rock hard enough to rip my steering box off the frame last weekend.....and put a crack in the pitman arm. I've been happy enough with the performance of my AGR pump and Tommy Lee box that I have put off going to hydro assist, even though the box was already tapped for it.

I see different typs of ends on the various rams, and it looks like most of the places that sell a hydro assist kit use rams with rod ends. To me, this would be the best idea, since it would allow for some side to side movement as well as pivoting. Any thoughts on this, especially with a discussion about getting rams at a better price by buying direct? I can get the mounting tabs and lines easily locally, so buying just a ram would be the cheapest way to go for me. I want good handling at speed, so a smaller size ram is what I want.

I also wonder how to get the ram to travel exactly the same distance as the tie rod moves lock to lock. I measured mine, and it has 7.5" of movement, lock to lock. With an 8" ram, how do you handle the extra 1/2" of ram movement? I do have VERY stout steering stops.....the D44 high steer arms hit against the spring perches, leaving very little leverage against the knuckle. I would be more concerned about excess force against the tie rod.

[BrettM]

rodends are best, but add to the expense

you can buy just the ram from West Texas Offroad for $150 (with rodends)

if it's a tie-rod cylinder, you can open it up and put a spacer in to limit movement

if it's a welded cylinder, you can put a short peice of tubing around the shaft

you could also get a 6" throw ram and mount it to a point of your high-steer arm that only moves 6 inches. in this case you would probably want to step up to a larger bore because the movement of the ram would be slower than the movement of the tie-rod. 2x6 rams are dirt cheap and plentiful.

[Goatman]

I like the rod ends, and the expense is minimal. Probably the best, and easiest, and quickest, is to order the ram and kit from West Texas or RockLogic. Sometimes trying to save a couple of bucks burns more time than it's worth.

I don't have the option of going directly to the hy-steer arms. The springs and perches, and the track bar mount on the pass side are all in the way. I'd have a problem with clearing the track bar and mount, too, which is very close to the tie rod on the drivers side. I also need to keep the ram protected by the tie rod. Matt's setup is nicely done, but I'd trash the ram in short order in the terrain I wheel in, and with my "drive by brail" driving style. :D

http://fototime.com/57DB3D9CCCFDE96/standard.jpg

I figure I can mount the ram to the side of the axle end track bar mount, under the track bar and directly behind the tie rod. It would be a tight fit, but there's just enough room.

[Matt]

Thanks, that was exactly what I need for info. Now, with what you said about needing an orbital valve...what about this one? Or got any better suggestions? It looks like it might need a bigger pump!? The 3" ram looks like the ticket with what you described. now need to choose an orbital valve.


http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-5365&catname=hydraulic

On my rock crawler I'm going full hydro but on my XJ it will just be an assist. The rock crawler is what I'm buying for now. Thanks VERY much for the info and advice. Danno

I would go with a bigger diplacement - with the 9.7 you are at 5 or 6 turns lock to lock

try to get into the teens 14, 17 or even the 23 cu"/rev would be my choice

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-1801&catname=hydraulic

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-1802&catname=hydraulic

Matt

PS looking back at the numbers either the 14 or 17 would be the best choice - the 23 would give 2.5 turns lock to lock

Make sure these are open center valves!!!! PS pump will be bypassing all the time with a closed center valve

Plus this guy: - (any charlynn 211-XXXX series should work ok - open center, non-load reactive)

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-1884&catname=hydraulic

[Matt]

Dazz - yes 70 is about the comfort level for both the steering and the whole rigs suspension and driveline speeds - I have driven it to work a few times 50 miles each way - so it is streetable just do so at your own risk!!!

Goatman - the easiest way to deal with excess travel is to either buy stroke limiters or make your own collar from heavy wall tube (.25 wall and thicker works fine)

With a welded cylinder you can still open it but you need a spanner designed for the cylinder - the stops should keep the cylinder from maxing out the knuckles travel - you do not want 2500 lbs of force (plus the multiplying leverage of the knuckle mounts) being applied repedatively against the ball joint or that thin ball joint collar area on the knuckle...

Try and get something with a sizable rod diameter since most folks end up bending the rod (even sideloading it will kill the seals and make it leak)

The way my mounts are done I have yet to hit that cylinder - and we wheel in tall bouldery stuff - often with running water or snow over top. Driving by brail is very common - did it yesterday at the May Creek crossing (2-3ft of water) here and bent the lip of one of my rims - I usually hit the diff cover and not the tie rod or ram...

PS my cylinder has a solid 1.125" rod - if you bend that and have not damaged the cylinder walls you are doing something wrong...

I like the clevis mounts as they are easier to work with and mount in double shear - the slop in the pin allows for all the missalignment you need (as long as the ram is mounted in the same plane as the verhicles caster angle)

Matt

http://home.off-road.com/~wanderingwillys/xjpics/Steering/cylinder_mount1.jpg

http://home.off-road.com/~wanderingwillys/xjpics/Steering/orbital_mounted5.jpg

[ashmanjeepxj]

Tap the casting as shown in the write ups and run the lines as short as possible - use steel JIC fittings except for where you enter the ram (I use an adapter that goes from NTP to JIC and is left in the ram when I pull a hose - eliminates leakage and the need to retape when pulling a line) EDIT: As for the box use straight o-ring boss fitting that convert to JIC - the o-ring will seal (not the threads) preventing excessive splitting pressure from a tapered thread cut into a casting that was not designed to be drilled and tapped in that location...

Lines should be a good power steering hose 100r5 rated (-6 JIC / 3/8" is fine) - reusable fittings are good so you can field repair hoses and just carry a few feet of extra line and some loose fittings to fix just about anything...


About how much did your hoses run with all the fittings and all?

Reusable fittings, Ill see what I can find.

[Matt]

About how much did your hoses run with all the fittings and all?

Reusable fittings, Ill see what I can find.

Total cost on the fittings was about 30$ and the hose plus reusable ends (6) was about 70$

fittings from - http://www.fittingsandadapters.com/

hoses from - http://www.pscpowersteer.com/

Here is the fittings and hose page:

http://www.pscpowersteer.com/Performance_Steering/Components/Off_Road/miscellaneous_off_road_components_PSC.cfm

HTH

Matt - I spent a total of 220$ for everything - orbital, bracketry, hoses, fttings, fluid - some stuff was carry over from my assist sytem but most was new - (ram, home built reservior, cooler, and filter were reused...)

[BrettM]

where'd you get the orbital!?

[ashmanjeepxj]

Total cost on the fittings was about 30$ and the hose plus reusable ends (6) was about 70$

fittings from - http://www.fittingsandadapters.com/

hoses from - http://www.pscpowersteer.com/

Here is the fittings and hose page:

http://www.pscpowersteer.com/Performance_Steering/Components/Off_Road/miscellaneous_off_road_components_PSC.cfm



Thats a tough call.

Get reusable fittings, or just get the generic hydrolic lines from west texas off road. For $45 They give you two 3ft lines with fittings. So even If I replace them both once, its cheeper then getting the reusable fittings and hoses.

The reusable fittings would be handy but due to cost I think Ill stick with the pre fabbed ones.

[Matt]

where'd you get the orbital!?

Ebay... Just look up the part numbers on Eaton's web site and pick your battles - I won't go much over 100$

[ashmanjeepxj]

I got the Surplus center ram, 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft, with 3/8in NPT fitttings and accepts 3/4in bolts at each end. And I got my $45 3ft long hydraulic lines and $48 seal/rebuild kit from west texas off road.

Now I just need to get to work. Well Im "AT WORK" but not at work on my steering if you know what I mean.

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/download.php?id=1700

[Big Red]

Any more info on the Project RAM Assist? I'm looking to do this mod too on my xj with my hp44 with 35 or 37" tires.

[Matt]

check this thread:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=348166&posted=1#post348166