Did Goatman bust a CTM !??

[BrettM]

I was looking through the pics Jes has from Swamp Lake and there was one that had a caption about a broken CTM. Is this true? Haven't there only been a handful of broken CTMs ever, and usually on much more built rigs (no offense Goatman, yours is awesome)

so a few questions for Goatman:

What shafts are you running?
What kinda horsepower/torque and gear reduction?
What locker up front?
Any highly unusual circumstances?

and any word yet from CTM if they are going to replace them no problem?

[Goatman]

Alright, alright, I guess the word's out. Yes, I broke a CTM last Sunday. :D

To answer your questions:

Warn chrmo inner and outer shafts
Stock '88 4.0L with 180K on it, AW4, 4 to 1, 5.13 gears, 35" MT/R's
HP D44 front, Detroit, Warn Premium hubs
I was climbing an obstacle called "two step" on the Bald Mtn trail, walking it to the right with the steering locked to the right, and the right tire went into a crack between two rocks. Jes has a good pic of exactly when it broke.

Jack called me right back, will warrenty the joint, is sending it out immediately at no charge since I'm leading a Dusy run next week, and I'll send the broken one back to him when I get it out. The new joints are cryogenics treated, which makes them even stronger, and he said I can pull the other side and send it to him and he will either replace it with a cryo treated joint, or treat mine and send it back.....at no charge.

[BrettM]

jack seems to have a great reputation for taking care of his customers and this certainly doesn't make me think any less of the CTM joints...

but still! that's crazy! You have to be the first one to break one with 35s, especially with nothing crazy as far as motor and reduction. And you're not even running drive-flanges, I would think a Warn Premium would give first...

So was your wheel spinning then it suddenly got wedged? that seems like a great way to break a joint...

[Lupine]

Wheel wasn't spinning, I think it was just locked up tight in the crack, and turned. (I was looking straight at it when it went).

Actually, it was quite surprising that it broke right there. I've treated my CTM's much worse, as has Goatman, with no problems.

I think he greases them too much........ :)

CRASH

[JnJ]

So, I assume the shaft ears got trashed too, yes, no?

[CRASH]

No ear trashage. I think only one of the trunions snapped, and he let off right away, so none of the ears touched.

Warns have been shown to survive multiple CTM bustings, so that is hardly ever an issue.

Edit: Richard, were teh steering stops set up OK? I remember seeing some marks on the shafts, was that interference?

CRASH

[Paul S]

I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday that has broken many CTM's. One constant he has found is that CTM's do not take out the ears when they let go. The trunion breaks off clean & does not walk up over the ears. He has drive flanges & does not carry spare anything, so he is forced to finish trails with a broken U-joint.
Richard, you need a 609 & I could probably find a home for your HP44 ;)
Paul

[JnJ]

Huh, I didn't think the ears, even warns could stand up to that. I guess it's like you said Paul.....

[Jes]

Here's where it broke...
http://www.fototime.com/{36F48C3B-D351-4DE0-A311-5A9919A42786}/picture.JPG
...passenger side.

Jes

[Goatman]

Originally posted by CRASH
No ear trashage. I think only one of the trunions snapped, and he let off right away, so none of the ears touched.

Warns have been shown to survive multiple CTM bustings, so that is hardly ever an issue.

Edit: Richard, were teh steering stops set up OK? I remember seeing some marks on the shafts, was that interference?

CRASH

The ears are fine, doesn't look like they even hit each other. I can only see one trunion broken, but the other side seems loose so may also be broken, but it doesn't look like it. The center of the cross is so beefy on the CTM's that the trunion broke right at the bottom of the cup, and things pretty much held their normal position. I sure don't think any other u-joint would break only one trunion and not allow the yokes to hit each other.

I had previously seen some marks on the inside of the yokes that showed that they were touching slightly, and had meant to change the stops a little. Unfortunately, that all slipped my mind and I never did it. I can't see any marks now where the yokes have been hitting, but there is some road grime on the axles.

Most of the CTM breakage happens when the yokes are hitting slightly, which they said and I have seen. I'll make sure when it goes back together that nothing is touching.

Since I was climbing, and there was little weight on the front end, I'm sure that tire wedged just right into that crack, and with the wheels turned sharp and possibly the yokes hitting, it was enough break it.

Well, you have to wheel before you have the potential to break something, and I do........so no complaints here. Even with beefy equipment you just have to accept occasional breakage. I'm not going to completely re-design my rig, or do mostly web wheeling..............like a few others I hear about. :rolleyes:
:D :D :D

[CRASH]

The fact that I haven't had to pull out a single mangled axle shaft in 1.5 years is worth the cost of the Warns/CTM's.

When I think of how many times i would have busted a 297/760, it makes me want to give Jack a big ol' hug.

CRASH

[JnJ]

Originally posted by Goatman
The ears are fine, doesn't look like they even hit each other. I can only see one trunion broken, but the other side seems loose so may also be broken, but it doesn't look like it. The center of the cross is so beefy on the CTM's that the trunion broke right at the bottom of the cup, and things pretty much held their normal position. I sure don't think any other u-joint would break only one trunion and not allow the yokes to hit each other.

I had previously seen some marks on the inside of the yokes that showed that they were touching slightly, and had meant to change the stops a little. Unfortunately, that all slipped my mind and I never did it. I can't see any marks now where the yokes have been hitting, but there is some road grime on the axles.

Most of the CTM breakage happens when the yokes are hitting slightly, which they said and I have seen. I'll make sure when it goes back together that nothing is touching.

Since I was climbing, and there was little weight on the front end, I'm sure that tire wedged just right into that crack, and with the wheels turned sharp and possibly the yokes hitting, it was enough break it.

Well, you have to wheel before you have the potential to break something, and I do........so no complaints here. Even with beefy equipment you just have to accept occasional breakage. I'm not going to completely re-design my rig, or do mostly web wheeling..............like a few others I hear about. :rolleyes:
:D :D :D
hmmmm.....who's is he refering to....hhhmmmm... does the name start with a B? ;)

[woody]

Nice!!!!

I must be being too tender, since I have never broke a 260 or 297 (even the hollow greasable NAPA ones) But Richard is right, it's easy to keep stuff alive while web-wheeling.

Note to self...Beat on junk next time out!

[offroadman83]

I heard running ctms on the street is bad. Is this true? I really want to run them when I build up my front 44, sometime in the near future, but I daily drive my beast. Sorry to intrude on topic. -------Kyle

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by offroadman83
I heard running ctms on the street is bad. Is this true? I really want to run them when I build up my front 44, sometime in the near future, but I daily drive my beast. Sorry to intrude on topic. -------Kyle


No it is not bad. They don't change anything from a stock set up.

mark
orgs mfg

[BrettM]

I've heard people say that running CTMs on the street is bad because they are not properly lubed for longevity since that isn't their purpose. How true this is I do not know, but if you have selectable hubs then it isn't even an issue. Now if you had slugs you might want to give Jack a call.

[Goatman]

Originally posted by offroadman83
I heard running ctms on the street is bad. Is this true? I really want to run them when I build up my front 44, sometime in the near future, but I daily drive my beast. Sorry to intrude on topic. -------Kyle

Like Mark said, no problems on the street at all. They ride on a film of grease like anything else, very similar to engine bearings. Most of the time the wheels are straight which doesn't move the axle u-joints at all, and in 2wd there is no presure on the front axle joints, they're just free wheeling. On a D44 they don't even move because you run on the street with the hubs unlocked.

[offroadman83]

Thanks guys for answering my question.=====Kyle

[FarmerMatt]

You have to break eventually when you're trying to keep up with the "Tractor".

Matt

[CRASH]

Oh my gawd. I see the bulbous head is having trouble with containment.

CRASH

[Goatman]

Originally posted by FarmerMatt
You have to break eventually when you're trying to keep up with the "Tractor".

Matt

Every dog has it's day. Unfortunately, I'll probably be there to see yours. :D

If you're the tractor, how come I'm always pulling someone's rig down the trail? Crash says mine even sounds like a tractor.....

[XJJPR]

Matt

Good thing you live on the farm where there's lots of room!

Got swelling?

hinkley

[CRASH]

Richard, your's sounds like a 6 cylinder tractor running on 4 cylinders.

If *I'M* riding your tail going up the four lane, it's time for a new engine.

CRASH

[Weasel]

Tires stuck in cracks or ledges and something will break.

There have been quite of few CTM broken actually. There arn't unbreakable just alot more durable then other u joints.

[CRASH]

And they are warrantied for 5 years. Try taking your spicer joint back to Kragen for warranty...........

CRASH

[Jes]

Try getting a Spicer joint at Kragen...

[Goatman]

Originally posted by Weasel
Tires stuck in cracks or ledges and something will break.

There have been quite of few CTM broken actually. There arn't unbreakable just alot more durable then other u joints.

Yeah, if your tires get in a bind, the weakest link is likely going to break.

When I got mine apart, I did have marks on the inside of the yokes, so they were hitting. That seems to be the most frequent contributing factor to the CTM's breaking, and the instructions are clear about checking to make sure the yokes don't touch. Mine won't hit anymore when I get it back together.

[Bones]

Originally posted by CRASH
Oh my gawd. I see the bulbous head is having trouble with containment.


Gives a whole new meaning to "On Board Air":D

Bones :skull1:

[Weasel]

Originally posted by Goatman
Yeah, if your tires get in a bind, the weakest link is likely going to break.



Actually if you get one tire under something or wedged in a tight spot so it's not turning and you keep giving it power nothing will hold up. Even if your U joint doesn't go the axle shaft will. The forces are massive!!

[FarmerMatt]

Gives a whole new meaning to "On Board Air"

:wave:

Matt

[MJR]

Originally posted by Goatman
Like Mark said, no problems on the street at all. They ride on a film of grease like anything else, very similar to engine bearings. Most of the time the wheels are straight which doesn't move the axle u-joints at all, and in 2wd there is no presure on the front axle joints, they're just free wheeling. On a D44 they don't even move because you run on the street with the hubs unlocked.

Besides they have bronze bushings similiar to most manual transmission pilot bearings.

[Handlebars]

Originally posted by Goatman
Mine won't hit anymore when I get it back together. How are you doing that? I coughed up the coin for Superior axle shafts so I wouldn't have to worry about them, then I saw that the yokes interfere with each other. :(

http://www.fototime.com/34BC03D899C8334/standard.jpg

[Goatman]

First, I rounded off the square edge (just a little) on the inside of the yokes, but that's only on the side that I hasd out. I'll also have to adjust the steering stops.

[MJR]

Originally posted by Handlebars
How are you doing that? I coughed up the coin for Superior axle shafts so I wouldn't have to worry about them, then I saw that the yokes interfere with each other. :(


The most common failure is people not having the steering stops set right so they touch on turns which binds and stresses the U joint. Some have taken advantage of Jack's warranty. I do not believe there is an advantage to maximizing the turn stop because each side turns at a different angle (due to the offset ball joints and the way it is designed to roll the tire on turns). Since the angles are different this will cause the front to slip and push forward on sharp turns.

I hope those Superiors are ok. I know someone that had some and I think the caps started to spin.

[cracker]

http://beta.propichosting.com/FileHandler.ashx?pa=501326&sub=42&timecode=632888338345468750&checkref=1

I still find it hard to believe that I kill these things (Warn premium hubs) and a CTM (non-cryo) broke without a hub failure. :passgas:

But Goat is special.