Oil Leak = Busted Engine?

I brought my Jeep to the dealership to figure out why it wouldn't start, turned out to be the Crankshaft Position Sensor(Duh!!). Felt dumb for having to bring it in for something I've changed b4, but the shop foreman worked on it so I didn't hafta pay labor. Anywho, the reason the CKP went out was because a short from the battery, which also shorted out my starter.

I asked the foreman about the oil leak I have, which leaks about a half quart between oil changes. He tells me that its irrepairable because my engine is busted. Well, it has always been my understanding that leaks are caused by bad seals and gaskets, and that if oil is leaking on the OUTSIDE of the engine, its because an external seal or gasket is busted (main seal, oil pan, valve cover, etc.). But he tells me otherwise.

He says that its internal and that it cannot be fixed, and that the only way to stop it would be to replace the engine. This engine has always run fine for me, never a problem on the road, never a breakdown. Besides the oil leak, changing the CKP twice(the first time it just gave out like they tend to do) and a new starter, I've never had a problem with it. It starts on the coldest and hottest days, runs at normal engine temp and pressures and doesn't stall or run rough.

Has anyone else heard of this or what it is he may be talking about? I was going to ask him but it was over the phone and he had customers.

1989 Cherokee Laredo, 4.0L, 120k miles, 4x4

Sounds suspect...

Find where the oil is coming from and work from there.

if it's an INTERNAL oil leak....how did HE spot it?

ask yourself that question first, and you'll realize he full of crap.

Half a quart isn't much so I doubt it's the rear main. (half a qt a DAY, yes) Could be beginning but there are so many other possibilities.

Could be the oil filter o'rings or the distributor o'rings. Perhaps the rear bolts on the valve cover (notorious) or even loose oil pan bolts. Blowback through the dip stick is possible if the baffles in the valve cover are clogged or the CCV system is clogged in some way.

Busted motor.... real technical description there. I'd make sure that guy never touches MY Jeep again.

Oil to the starter can come from 4 places, valve cover up top, oil mounting O rings, distributor and *maybe* a head gasket. Best way to check is degrease the engine completely then drive it, look for oil, you leak is at the highest point somewhere. If it is, longshot, the head gasket that can be fixed by degreasing the area where it is seeping out of, putting some black RTV in there and gently pushing it in just a little bit, the seepage in that area is from returning oil that is not under pressure. There is one other place thats a real PIA and thats on th back of the block under the bell housing, there is what looks like a small freeze plug but is to the oil gallery, THATS under pressure but you would also have oil coming out of the bell housing...and alot of it too.

well i'm not saying he isn't full of crap...i don't believe it for a second...look at your posts you all mention EXTERNAL possibilities. Seems like he may be the only guy in the world that thinks the leak is internal. My regular mechanic thinks he's lost his mind.

oil pan gasket replaced a few months ago cuz it was leaking and isn't anymore, 0-rings changed recently, no leak there, no leak from distributor, definitely not head gasket. the valve cover could definitely be the problem because, as i stated earlier, all of the bolts were loose. I haven't seen my jeep since i retightened them(tow truck picked it up a couple of hours later). the oil filter assembly wash changed, along with the oil pressure unit(membrane inside was broken, made a helluva leak).

he says the oil is 'spewing' out, but he says he can't say from where??? i think this guy is off his rocker. when i hear 'spew' i think geyser. and when a geyser blows, u sure as hell know where its coming from.

i suppose i'll hafta wait til i get it back to see. what i don't understand, is that when it sat in my driveway for a few hours after valve cover tightening, there was that same old quarter sized drip under the truck. NOT something i would consider a spew. As we speak, the engine has not been started for days. crank attempts have been made at my home as well as at the dealership, however it never 'spewed' any oil.

Could it be possible that throughout their toying with the jeep that they may have ruptured something, such as the oil pressure sending unit's internals? not hard to do when you're messing around with stuff over there.

Man, if he used a term like "busted" then he must really know his stuff, I know a few ppl I'd like to send to him...lol

lmfao dizzy...yeah i know a few places i'd like to send him to also...sad thing is, he's been the head tech and shop foreman here for 12 years. my wife works there so i get work done labor free. doesn't seem to be doing me much good though huh? lol

wildman said:

Has anyone else heard of this or what it is he may be talking about? I was going to ask him but it was over the phone and he had customers.

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I think he's looking for an excuse to rob you blind by claiming that you need a replacement engine. That's pure BS! You clearly don't so go somewhere else to fix the oil leak. It's probably something relatively simple.

LMAO...u guys aren't going to believe this, I went to pick up my Jeep today and talked to the shop foreman about my supposedly shot engine. He proceeds to show me the oil that is all over the engine. It started from the TOP of the Valve Cover!!!!! well duh, ccv, oil filler cap and the hose in the front are the only things up there!

when I bought the Jeep, it had a blowby problem, was going through air filters like cheap beer on a friday night. I removed the hose that runs from the front of the valve cover to the air filter box. I bought a rubber grommet and stuffed an aftermarket open end filter on the end so that it could continue to suck clean air into the engine. well, the grommet that is attached to the filter is L-shaped so the filter actually hung over the driver side of the engine rather than standing straight up(which i don't know is possible because of hood clearance). when the filter would get too much oil in it, it would leak out. so about once a month, i would clean the filter and place it back into the grommet.

well....I kinda forgot about cleaning it in the alst 2 months because i haven't driven it more than a hundred miles a week or so. the filter was leaking oil down on all sides of the engine. not much, just a glaze of oil on just about everything.

i just laughed at the guy and told him that it was a damn shame that with all of his years experience, he didn't know how to chase an oil leak from the highest point that there is oil.

I also reminded him that the last time I brought my jeep to him, I asked that that particular problem be fixed using whatever means he deemed necessary. the problem was clearly not fixed last time, and it was because of this that he got the idea that the oil came from a 'busted' engine.

he just turned red and walked out...didn't even give me a bill...so the starter and ckp were free....lol

YAY FOR ME!

You have no excuse for blowby, PULL THAT VALVE COVER and clean the CCV in the back, then put new hoses on there and get rid of that redneck breather...could be you have so much sludge built up in the top of the head that the oil level in there has reached the bottom of the CCV and it's sucking pure oil, two solutions, clean the sludge out with a shop vac and plastic scraper or shorten the CCV a 1/8"...

wildman said:

he just turned red and walked out...didn't even give me a bill...so the starter and ckp were free....lol

YAY FOR ME!

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Yay for you! If *I* was in that situation, he woulda DOUBLED the bill out of spite.... That's the way it seems to work for me!!

Den

wildman said:

he just turned red and walked out...didn't even give me a bill...so the starter and ckp were free....lol
YAY FOR ME!

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Nice one Wildman. Just as I suspected, the shop foreman was full of BS. No wonder I don't trust any of them and try to do as much of the diagnostic work as possible myself.

RichP said:

You have no excuse for blowby, PULL THAT VALVE COVER and clean the CCV in the back, then put new hoses on there and get rid of that redneck breather...could be you have so much sludge built up in the top of the head that the oil level in there has reached the bottom of the CCV and it's sucking pure oil, two solutions, clean the sludge out with a shop vac and plastic scraper or shorten the CCV a 1/8"...

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cover pulled and cleaned once before. I mean like clean cleaned, i would've gladly licked the damn thing it was so clean lol. I removed the ccv grommet in the back and took a peak inside and its clean as a whistle. I removed the hoses attached to it and blew through em at 140 psi. definitely nothing clogging the hoses. never seemed to make much difference though. I did all that before sticking that redneck breather on there. the redneck breather worked great for almost 6 months but now its back to the same old thing. what do you mean by shorten the ccv a 1/8"?

wildman said:

cover pulled and cleaned once before. I mean like clean cleaned, i would've gladly licked the damn thing it was so clean lol. I removed the ccv grommet in the back and took a peak inside and its clean as a whistle. I removed the hoses attached to it and blew through em at 140 psi. definitely nothing clogging the hoses. never seemed to make much difference though. I did all that before sticking that redneck breather on there. the redneck breather worked great for almost 6 months but now its back to the same old thing. what do you mean by shorten the ccv a 1/8"?

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If the oils not draining back fast enough to the pan it collects in the valve train area, get enough in there and the CCV sucks it up.
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/blowby.htm
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/98/04_apr/valvecover/cover.html

I had basically the same problem on my '88. I cleaned the valve cover and replaced the CCV system as in the Cherokee America article. It worked for a while and then I was losing oil about 1 quart a week. I figured it was the valve cover gasket (cork). I put a new one on it. I don't have much luck with cork gaskets. I didn't have the proper torque wrench at the time (in-lbs). I read a different article about putting on an HO (91-95) valve cover. Supposevly the 90 degree elbows help control the oil better. Don't know for sure. I put on a '95 valve cover from an engine I had. I used RTV to tuch up the remaining factory seal. I then did the 99+ CCV big tube conversion. See:
http://www.madxj.com/
Its a bit different for a Renix motor. I had to cut the tube and splice in fuel line tubing. I also had to get some 1/2 fuel line tubing to adapt the CCV hose and the front hose to the 90 degree elbows. I have pictures on a CD if you need to see what I mean. I drove the vehicle for a few months with no oil in the airfilter. Then the internal slave cylinder blew in the BA-10/5. Bummer. I have heard of adapting a PVC valve in place of the CCV tube with good results. Might be the ticket for the Renix valve cover (87-90). But do get a good seal on the valve cover. RTV, a rubberized valve cover gasket (I hear Felpro makes one) or the newer rubber sandwiched steel valve cover gasket works well (96+ I think). Also, you will find some of the Valve cover breathers with a metal shield on them. You might want to get one. I hear the airflow through the engine bay will suck some oil out.
Tom

75SV1 said:

But do get a good seal on the valve cover. RTV, a rubberized valve cover gasket (I hear Felpro makes one) or the newer rubber sandwiched steel valve cover gasket works well (96+ I think). Also, you will find some of the Valve cover breathers with a metal shield on them. You might want to get one. I hear the airflow through the engine bay will suck some oil out.
Tom

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Did a real good cleanup today and located my leak(s). The front port on the valve cover was leaking, the rear was fine, and there was a leak about a 1/4" wide in the valve cover gasket between the 2nd and 3rd plug. The Rear tubing seems to work fine, I sealed the base of the grommet with RTV along time ago and nothing has leaked from that end since.

as far as the front opening on the cover goes, the redneck filter on there is filling up with oil, not that bad though. if I don't clean it at least once every two weeks to a month it begins to leak all over. no big deal really, just gotta remember to keep it clean. it IS leaking from the grommet on the bottom, so i'm thinking i'll go ahead and RTV that SOB like i did the back one.

As far as the valve cover goes, it is fairly new, apparently it just didn't seal well in that one spot. I pushed RTV in there real good and torque'd the bolts down around it to spec.

Well, after I put it on the road for a 45 mile test drive, i'm proud to say that after 6 hours of being parked, the leak is only about the size of a nickel on the pavement. (seems to be coming from the oil filter assembly, i've done all i can possibly think of with that, new assembly, new gaskets, blah blah blah)

BTW, i looked inside the valve cover with a flashlight and for as much as i can see, there is no carbon our sludge build up around or on the baffles.

will be reworking the front opening on the cover this weekend...i'll be glad to put this behind me!

Wow! This is some awesome info. I'll give it a shot. I've been leaking some oil as well. Thank all!

wildman said:

I brought my Jeep to the dealership to figure out why it wouldn't start, turned out to be the Crankshaft Position Sensor(Duh!!). Felt dumb for having to bring it in for something I've changed b4, but the shop foreman worked on it so I didn't hafta pay labor. Anywho, the reason the CKP went out was because a short from the battery, which also shorted out my starter.

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How does a "short" from the battery trash a starter?

Rev

Rev Den said:

How does a "short" from the battery trash a starter?

Rev

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Rev...you know...

after I got my clutch done, I suddenly needed brake work.