long arm or leaf spring conversion

[agentxj]

i was intrested to see what you guys have to say about it.
i think that the leaf would be less money and be easyer for the sterring setup (for big lifts above 6 inch. ) but what about flex and handling . those who are running these setups it would be good to hear from you.

[Georgia Mike]

Boy I tell ya! You're opening up a can o' worms with that topic!

Frankly,I like both. But I'm easy to please. As long as it works I don't care if it's leaves or coils. The end justifies the means for me :D

[Safari Ary]

Originally posted by Georgia Mike
Boy I tell ya! You're opening up a can o' worms with that topic!

Frankly,I like both. But I'm easy to please. As long as it works I don't care if it's leaves or coils. The end justifies the means for me :D

What a useful contribution to this thread Mike, thanks for sharing :rolleyes::D

I was going to suggest that maybe we try to limit this to theory as it applies to leafs and theory as it applies to coils and leave the short vs. mid vs. long arm debate for a seperate thread after we convince him that coils are better. ;) That way we can get some useful tech on the pros and cons of both without getting all wrapped up in just coils(no pun intended). Just an idea

Ary

[TOZOVR]

Originally posted by Ary'01XJ
What a useful contribution to this thread Mike, thanks for sharing :rolleyes::D

I was going to suggest that maybe we try to limit this to theory as it applies to leafs and theory as it applies to coils and leave the short vs. mid vs. long arm debate for a seperate thread after we convince him that coils are better. ;) That way we can get some useful tech on the pros and cons of both without getting all wrapped up in just coils(no pun intended). Just an idea

Ary

[opening NEW Can of worms] So I should go coils out back too?[/OC of W]


:D

[azxjman]

Well not that I personally like the idea if you want to see how its done here is a writeup on how to do it http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by Ary'01XJ
What a useful contribution to this thread Mike, thanks for sharing :rolleyes::D

Ary

Hey thanks!! I'm ALWAYS glad to help out!!:wave:

[woody]

It all depends on the well you are fetching buckets from...

Below 5" I'd stick with what came there: Coils on pads, 2 shocks, track bar + 4 links. It's proven to work by thousands of folks, who may have it all wrong.

At 5-10" it's a battleground... Not too many leaf folks here to argue for em :dunno: Plenty of other Long Arm/Mid Arm/Short Arm folks I'm sure will chime in why their's is better.

Seems to me that lots of setups have merit (depending on ones budget, parts scrounging/wrenching/fab skills, tolerance for downtime, budget etc...) with the leaf conversion being IMHO towards the "easier" end of the spectrum.

Easier isn't automatically worse or non-functional though. IMHO it really depends on what the Jeep is expected to do and the plan to get it to where it can do it.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by woody
with the leaf conversion being IMHO towards the "easier" end of the spectrum.


So what your saying is that reinforcing the frame, knowing where to weld spring mounts, fabbing new steering is easier than taking a crossemember that has arm mounts, slapping the longarms on?

i think making longarms is way easier, you already have the platform to do it with. all you have to worry about is steering issues, thats if your going real high.

[yellowxj]

Didnt need to add anything structural. Front hangers welded on the front bumper, used the lca mounts on the other end. Even reused my stock front axle. Steering is just now solid as a rock. Leaves can be cheap and easy, research, be ready to disassemble and try again, have time. Took time to get the shackles at the right angle. I spent two nights a week on mine for a month before it was ready to ride.
Would I do it again. Probably. I'm alot more confident in my fab skills now. I stuck it all together and it didnt come apart(yet). I might have tried a long arm but money is still tight and those long springs arent free.... It works. Nothing dramatic. I bought almost everything used. http://home.earthlink.net/~michtravhp/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Jeeppic061.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~michtravhp/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/vacation7-4186.jpg
PS: just tore up the junky 35's and bought new 36" swampers, the cheap lumpy kind. works great. going to trailor it to tellico next year so I can try the tough stuff with out fear of having to nurse it home.

[BrettM]

I have never had or even had a ride in an XJ with longarms so I can't give an honest comparison, BUT I can tell you what I love about my leafs up front.

Easy! yes that's right, it's not that bad to set-up, especially since I swapped a Waggy D44, the coil setup on that would have been not so fun.

Cheap! I actually made money by selling my 4.5" coil lift stuff and buying a Waggy D44 and slapping leafs on it. I looked at doing longarms and it would have cost me about $300 versus making about $100. That $400 difference is very important to me considering my student budget.

Ride quality! The ride quality is FAR superior to 5"s with coils and short-arms and I would imagine it is just as good as a longarm setup. It flexes better than a 5" shortarm setup, but feels way more "stable" than coils. I would guess that it flexes almost as good as a longarm setup but with a much more "stable" feeling. Silly crazy flex is WAY overrated.



Judge for yourself, if the cost was the same, I would probably go longarm by a narrow margin. One day when I have better budget to work with I'll go 3 link with coilovers.

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by mad maXJ
I would guess that it flexes almost as good as a longarm setup but with a much more "stable" feeling. Silly crazy flex is WAY overrated.


I think leafs will not even come close to a properly modded long arms. ONly way you can come close to it is to do the funky stuff with the leaves, like 3/4 or 1/4 eliptical

[BrettM]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
I think leafs will not even come close to a properly modded long arms. ONly way you can come close to it is to do the funky stuff with the leaves, like 3/4 or 1/4 eliptical

I am using 57 inch MJ leafs (with Chevy and Waggy leaves mixed in) and a 4 inch regular shackle and I am maxing out my 12 inch travel shocks and will probably max out 14 inch travel shocks when I get them. Okay, so maybe some long-arms could max out 16 inch travel shocks, well who makes 16" travel shocks? No one without spending a couple hundred bucks a shock.

And then there is the ever popular subject of whether or not tons of flex from long-arms is actually accomplishing anything. If you have your long arms dropping farther than a 14 inch travel shock, then the coil is certainly unseated and the only pressure on the tire is part of the weight of the axle. That is not helping you any, get some lockers and decent flex, I aint going for a ramp queen.

[KarmirXJ]

if I had to build a rig most likely I would of gone with leaves cuz of the simplicity, all im saying is that you already have the 5 link configuration infront of the xj, why not just stick with it and make it easier.

and yes, your right, too much flex is for ramp queens and really doesnt to anything. it is over rated.

but standard config leaves do have their limitaitions.

[BrettM]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
you already have the 5 link configuration infront of the xj, why not just stick with it and make it easier.


cuz it wouldn't have been easier, leafs were very easy to set-up, especially using a Waggy D44. I tried sticking with the factory 5 link by going to 5.5 inches of lift with the control arms in the factory locations and it SUCKED. It rode harsh on the street and didn't flex as good as now with the leafs. And then there is the cost aspect of it all which I also touched on above...

I am convinced that leaves are the way to go for anyone looking for 5"+, has the ability to fabricate, and is on a tight budget.

Yes leaves have their limitations, but so do coils, so do radius arms, so does just about everything. Now if time, money, and frame/oilpan permitted, I would do a triagulated 4-link with coilovers and full hydro steering. But alas... they do not...

[dave]

as for crazy flex .... anyone ever heard of limiting straps?

now to play both sides.. my long arm setup has me chasing gremlins if something comes loose.. i hate chasing gremlins ALOT, i also use the inverted y setup for steering still , which i also hate. i've given some thought to doing SOA in the front... seems like it would be much simpler and easy to troubleshoot with a proper setup. Even now as i am getting ready to change out my rear springs i wonder if i could use my old ones as front springs... i can tell you this much.. setting up a longarm setup takes a while... especially if you are designing a crossmember, triple checking all your measurements and angles etc etc. also take into account there are way less parts to buy with leafsprings :D

[agentxj]

thanks AZXJMAN for the link but it is what started this thread

My xj is sitting and now would be a good time for the leaf conversion with a d44 if i can find one for cheap
also i am a poor college student and leafs look good for price
i was thinking about it when i looked at rustys site the rig he has pics of with his long arm setup must ride like a shoe box on top of a boble head doll .....thanks you guys for all the info

[yellowxj]

Yellowxj conversion pics (http://home.earthlink.net/~michtravhp/id3.html)
Some pictures of my conversion. Not a good write up but...if you didnt count the cost of my welder and chop saw (borrowed the torches)...the rest of the front lift cost less then $500. Also found a full size bronco front drive shaft was the right size and length...works great with that much lift.

[Beezil]

Long arms and leaf conversions both cause death wobble.

[agentxj]

death wobble can it be fixed beezil

[yellowxj]

Just put a street only quik disconnect track bar on the xj. Able to use all bolt on parts from tractorsupply/trailor supply store. THE THING RIDES LIKE ITS ON FREAKIN' RAILS. OH MY GOD
My leaf spring set up is almost....dare I say it...perfect. Now that I've said that somethings breaking in the driveway right now.

[Beezil]

once death wobble rears its ugly head, nothing can be done except burning sage and ghost dancing.....

[Flowers]

Originally posted by Beezil
once death wobble rears its ugly head, nothing can be done except burning sage and ghost dancing.....

You know that's SPOBI B. Sage will never rid Death Wobble, neither will ghost dancing.

You must burn 5 sticks of Nag Champa and spend a minimum of 5 hours in a sweat tent. If that doesn't work, go back into the sweat until you puke.

Flowers

[agentxj]

i' ve burnt some sage and done some dancing before but for a different reson i think ?? the way i see it if i go leaf and don't like it i can always go back its not like i would cut off the lca mounts are anything . yellowxj did you use stock steering or what? can't tell from pics i would guess home brew ?

[agentxj]

flowers i like the idea

[Beezil]

shit, I swear I didn't mean to wreck this thread.....

its flowers fault!

[agentxj]

beezil what are you running up front

[Flowers]

OK then back on track.

Why do you want leaves OR long arms? There is a thread not too far back about long vs. drop brackets. Some fine gentleman (sorry , don't remember your name)posted an excellent question that no one answered.

Why are people so focused on the front when they should be loosening up the rear?

[agentxj]

well i'm my xj is stock and sitting right now and this would be a good time for something drastic.. oh it was stolen and lived through a police chase so i figure it deservies it

[Flowers]

Ok, I'm back, and I found the post

Everyone read this and write a 250 word essay on why DeadEyeJ is right, or possibly wrong. I would like to see the essays on my desk by tomorrow at noon.

I am continually amazed at how much focus the front suspension gets on a lifted XJ. IMHO the front is the part that you should just lift and forget. Of course, make sure nothing binds at lift, but the flex is there right out of the box.

The REAR of the XJ is what really needs some attention. Everybody throws some lift leaves at the rear and calls it done. WHY?!?! The XJ's rear flex flat sucks!

If you want my opinion, which you may well not, keep the front cheap and simple. Then throw on a 1/4 elliptic or coil rear setup. This will offer some balance to your flex instead of focusing all of it in the front.

Whoopty freakin doo if your front will droop 4" more with a long arm setup. Wouldn't it be better if the rear would droop 6-8" better instead for the same money/effort? RockKrawler sells a rear coilover setup with Fox spring/shocks. I dunno how much, but something similar could be homemade.

My plan is to use the stock front coils and stock track bar/mount for the rear of my XJ when the Drop Bracket 5.5" lift goes on the front with the STOCK control arms. Just fab up a crossmember and some wristed radius arms for the rear, weld up the track bar, toss on the coils and away you go! Balanced flex and I would bet more total articulation than the long arm guys.

[agentxj]

flowers do you have some links to write ups on the rears that you are talking about

[Beezil]

agent, I am designing and building a trackbarless link suspension.....

no details, no pics as of yet.

[BrettM]

Originally posted by yellowxj
Just put a street only quik disconnect track bar on the xj. Able to use all bolt on parts from tractorsupply/trailor supply store. THE THING RIDES LIKE ITS ON FREAKIN' RAILS. OH MY GOD
My leaf spring set up is almost....dare I say it...perfect. Now that I've said that somethings breaking in the driveway right now.

I would like to see pics of that! I just finished my leaf conversion and I love it. did you have death wobble? I don't, but a trackbar would help with bumpsteer on the road, even though it is pretty minor with my setup.

And Flowers; I hear you on the rear flex issue, that's why I just set up my front real simple with leaves, now I can just forget about it. As for the rear, I have an MJ and the stock springs are really great SOA, but I'm really looking into doing a 3 or 4 link rear with stock XJ coils...

[Flowers]

Originally posted by agentxj
flowers do you have some links to write ups on the rears that you are talking about

Sorry but no. There is so much focus on the front that you never see any posts about the rear!

The rear flex on a Cherokee sucks compared to the stock front. Balance is key. OneTonXJ should jump in here at any moment and explain why.

Now that I've slept on it, sipped a couple cups of coffee, and taken a few ibuprofen, maybe front leaves would be the "simple" solution to balanced front and rear articulation.

There used to be a nice write up out there about front leaves.

BJ, was that on BillaVista's site?

Flowers

[JnJ]

BillaVista's front leaf conversion:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm

[Flowers]

Thanks JnJ.

Flowers

[xj4rocks]

for what it's worth a number of rock racers aim for more flex in the back vs the front which goes again with that earier post about why so many are always trying to increase front flex and ignoring rear flex.

[yellowxj]

As for the rear, I have an MJ and the stock springs are really great SOA, but I'm really looking into doing a 3 or 4 link rear with stock XJ coils
I'm checking into some thing like that too. Trying to keep everything "bolt on" . I did my whole suspension in the front so that I could always go back if I had to. Trying to develop a 3 link that could bolt on in place of the stock leaves and add a track bar to a bracket in the area of one of the bumpstops.
Mad ...I'll try to get pictures of it tonight after work.

[CRASH]

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times: leaf springs are for covered wagons! In fact, I found a picture of a bunch of the local front leaf spring guys on a trail ride:

http://www.covered-wagon-train.com/pics-pages/index1.jpg

You really haven't had a soiled underwear experience until you've been on a steep, double ledge, hit the gas and experienced simultaneous 4 wheel axle hop. My old CJ would make my heart stop about 3 times a day when the leaves would load up and let loose.

CRASH

[Goatman]

These youngsters...........they're so old fashioned. :rolleyes:

A leaf spring with a track bar, just like a YJ. Geez, I thought the YJ was the worst trail capable rig that Jeep ever built.

Being different is not being better.........

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by Georgia Mike
Boy I tell ya! You're opening up a can o' worms with that topic!



I told ya! :laugh:

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by agentxj
beezil what are you running up front

if im not mistaken I think his runningn Longarms in his little poser...:D

[KarmirXJ]

The rear flex on a Cherokee sucks compared to the stock front. Balance is key. OneTonXJ should jump in here at any moment and explain why.

hmmm... so what your saying is do a leaf conversion up front to mach the pile-o-shit rear?:D

[yellowxj]

Laugh it up fuzzball's. Still drive mine every day, drove it 500+/- miles to tellico and back(didnt beat it hard this year but proved to myself that it will stay together), probably got less then $3k in my whole jeep, I'm no fabrication pro, dont have a high dollar shop, and next year at tellico it'll be even better. Its cheap tough and it works, might not keep all four on the ground when I ramp up on the hood of your kia sportage but it gets me down the trails.


(j/k wouldnt really do something like that but the image was funny in my head)

[JnJ]

To each their own, but be prepared to hear the opinions of others on here without getting your panties in a knot. :)

[Georgia Mike]

I like Yella's rig! It shows how capable a *real world* rig can be without setting the credit cards ablaze. Not saying some of the nice long arm or dropped bracket rigs aren't capable,I'm just saying his works,and works well. :D

[Jes]

What works in Florida may not work in California(and vice versa for that matter). ;)

Jes

[BrettM]

some people act like 4 leaf springs is complete crap, I would like to see what happened to you if you brought that attitude into a room full of YJ,CJ,Toyota,and Chevy guys:D The facts are that leaf springs work! and are cheap and simple.

I don't think there is anyone that would argue that properly done triagulated 4 links with coilovers front and rear would be better, or even regular coiled link suspension that is setup and built properly, but that is a completely different thing, you are talking about far more money and far more time. believe me, I know, I crunched the numbers about a million times with every concievable configuration.


Leaf Srings: Simple, Cheap, and almost as effective as coils.

[yellowxj]

Guess I'll have to drive it to cali to test it. The wife and kids though vegas was PITA. But she wants to visit friends in oregon and wash. Hmmmm....I cant wait to have wheeled all over the US and made a pile of friends doing it. Your all great. I love you guys!!!!! (1 beer, I swear to god all I had was one beer, I'm so old)

[Georgia Mike]

OK,Yella! Take yer Gerital and go to bed! It's almost 10:00 and it's WAY past yer bedtime! :laugh:

[Ghost]

Look who's talking Mike! Ain't you got something ealse to work on?

[JJacobs]

I like my front leafs a lot. There were a couple of kinks to work out, but what else is new. The reason to go leafs was an easy one, I wanted quick to build, and cheap, and it fit those criteria.

I know a proper link design would school the leafs at maybe a UROC level or 10/10 wheeling. But for that 99% it's fine- not as flexy as some suspensions, but stable. and you don't have to tune it with bumpstops and limit straps, the limits are built in.

My leafs dare I say it are far more stable than I'm used to in an XJ. it's nice not having to wheel with the swaybar hooked up.

[dave]

http://www.ilovejeeps.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8784


if you read this post on ilovejeeps there is some good info and ALOT of pics on a front leaf spring conversion... i'm almost definately going to convert to leafs.. ( i already have a longarm setup now ) way more simple , less parts to break .. works just as well for what i do with my rig....

[Flowers]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
The rear flex on a Cherokee sucks compared to the stock front. Balance is key. OneTonXJ should jump in here at any moment and explain why.

hmmm... so what your saying is do a leaf conversion up front to mach the pile-o-shit rear?:D

I didn't say the rear was a pile of shit. What I was saying was.........nevermind, it's not worth my time

[Jes]

Originally posted by mad maXJ
some people act like 4 leaf springs is complete crap, I would like to see what happened to you if you brought that attitude into a room full of YJ,CJ,Toyota,and Chevy guys:D


Those are the guys I'm usually stuck behind on the 'con.
Are you saying that their suspensions work good and their just bad drivers? :D :D

Jes

[yellowxj]

with 4.56 4.0 aw4 36" swampers how much gas money would I need to get to california? I've got to start counting change.

[CRASH]

some people act like 4 leaf springs is complete crap, I would like to see what happened to you if you brought that attitude into a room full of YJ,CJ,Toyota,and Chevy guys The facts are that leaf springs work! and are cheap and simple.


Jes and I take it to the leaf spring guys all the time. I always have to laugh when our little old XJs SPANK their Toyota's on 38's and full width, one ton running gear.

Sure, it could be driving skillz, but I attribute a lot of it to the way our rigs are built, including a nicely built and balanced suspension.

Leaf springs are all well and good, and I'm sure you'll defend them to the death, but my question is this: If the front of an XJ frame can't even support a steering gear, how is it going to handle the forces of a leaf spring hanger over the long haul? Bottom line is that the frame is not designed for these kinds of loads, unless you do some major mods to reinforce.

CRASH

[agentxj]

Thank eveyone for there .02 i think i might go leaf if i can find the money .. it seems cheap and workable when i drive my xj again it will be everyday so i have to figure out a good plan and don't think that i can afford long arm setup

thanks for the replies

[BrettM]

Originally posted by CRASH
Leaf springs are all well and good, and I'm sure you'll defend them to the death

I will continue to defend them as a practical, fairly effective way to lift an XJ/MJ for someone on a very tight budget. If you were to ignore the time and money aspects, I have never, and will never say that they are better than coils.

Originally posted by CRASH
but my question is this: If the front of an XJ frame can't even support a steering gear, how is it going to handle the forces of a leaf spring hanger over the long haul? Bottom line is that the frame is not designed for these kinds of loads, unless you do some major mods to reinforce.

CRASH

I made a very beefy front crossmember that ties in all the bumper bolts, the two holes farther back that are used by tow-hook brackets, 2 steering box bolts, and all 4 swaybar mount bolts. This thing isn't goin anywhere! Considering people are winching up verticle waterfalls with winch bumpers that attach in half the places this does, I think it will handle the loads just dandy. The rear of the leafs are mounted to a crossmember I made, very similar to how many people mount their longarms.

You've mentioned 4 wheel spring-wrap before as a very dreaded thing about this, but I am right now making a traction bar for the rear, and the front has a 6 leaf pack that hardly wraps at all even under full braking from the 3/4 ton brakes (and still flexes great too!).

I've said it a couple times now, but I'm going to say it agian in bold becuase I think people are missing the point: Leaf Springs: Cheap, simple, almost as effective as coils.
Coils (especially coilovers): Expensive, complicated, but done right they are the very best thing out there

[CRASH]

So when does the web wheeling stop and the real wheeling begin? :D

CRASH

[Beezil]

whats "real" wheeling?

[CRASH]

If you have to ask, you haven't done it.

CRASH

[Goatman]

Originally posted by Beezil
whats "real" wheeling?

Steering, braking, and accelerating down an actual trail........as opposed to reading, typing, drawing, cutting, welding, and dreaming.

[BrettM]

Originally posted by CRASH
So when does the web wheeling stop and the real wheeling begin?

soooorrrry! Just because I have yet to go on a NAXJA run doesnt' mean I don't go wheeling. I have several friends (not with XJs) that I go wheeling with frequently. As for my truck, it won't be ready for a while as I still need to gear the front to match the rear and I am moving to Michigan for school in 2 weeks. Next May when I am back for the summer, this thing will be DONE, no more wrenching unless something breaks! I plan on doing the 'Con and Fordyce at least 5 times each next summer. I definitely look forward to seeing you and other NAXJA members on the trail.

keep in mind that I am 19 years old and a college student, I am hardly being able to afford the Waggy/8" swap that I am finishing up now, and I still have several more thing that need to be done before I consider this truck ready for the 'Con or Fordyce.

As of lately, I really wouldn't call myself a "web-wheeler" or a "real wheeler", I'm much more of a "wrenching, welding, knuckle banging, broke wheeler". I've been spending 6-10 hours a day working on my truck for the last several weeks, seems like my only breaks are to ask some questions on here and PBB. It really sucks and I'm really looking forward to just having it DONE.

Speaking of which, it's back to the garage I go... ( really need to get some lava soap, my keyboard is getting really dirty:rolleyes: )




'


For the leaf spring arguement, you said it yourself "Leaf springs are all well and good" they work, and get us college kids by while on a tight budget. You are also correct that a properly done coil suspension is better. Can we drop it now? I'm finished with the leaf/coil arguement.

[CRASH]

I commend you for sticking to your guns......I was just testing your resolve. :D We'd love to have you join us for some wheeling real soon!

What happened to UCD? I thought you were headed back there after your excursion to the South Pacific?

CRASH

[CRASH]

Steering, braking, and accelerating down an actual trail........as opposed to reading, typing, drawing, cutting, welding, and dreaming.

Ouch. CAUTION: Extreme reading can cause paper cuts. :firedevil :

CRASH

[BrettM]

Originally posted by Goatman
Steering, braking, and accelerating down an actual trail........as opposed to reading, typing, drawing, cutting, welding, and dreaming.

like this (two weeks ago before I tore down for the leafs and Waggy44, place called Hume Lake in the mountains east of Fresno):
http://pics.montypics.com/btmaxwell/2003-08-07/1060316588_hume.jpg

one of these days I'll actually go on a NAXJA run so people will realize this thing actually gets used, frequently.

[Georgia Mike]

So,how many times has the spare and tool box fell out of it? That's perty dangerous! Remind me not to ride behind you on the trail :laugh:

[BrettM]

they have never fallen out, but yeah it's a thought. The tire actually has a bike cable and lock holding it in (theft protection) and I had the toolbox bolted to the bedrails but the thing must weigh 2-300 pounds (lots of d30 and d35 spares :D ) and I actually noticed a difference in COG by putting it down flat in the bed. I've been looking all over for some of the Rubbermaid "action packers", the grey, black and red tubs to get a pair of those and bolt them in the bed instead of the steel tool box...

[CRASH]

Did you try Longs, next to BelAir in Auburn? I got two of them there. Also, Wally-Mart should have some.

CRASH

[BrettM]

yeah, couple weeks ago you said you got some at Longs in Auburn and I checked there. I also checked at the Walmart in Rocklin.