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heim vs tre

Kejtar

PostMaster General
NAXJA Member
OK, as I'm trying to decide what to do about my steering for a temporary solution I'm running into a big choice: heims or tres. Seems that each one has benefits and each one has faults. The way I see it

Heims
1. Less slop when new
2. More prone to wear
3. Smaller operating range/radius (whatever you call it)
4. Don't have to deal with reamers or anything like that during the installation.

TREs
1. Depending on steering design, might be more prone to slop/dead spots (inverted T for example).
2. Doesn't wear out as fast
3. Bigger operating range/radius then heim

To prevent wear, or to combat wear in heims, I've come across references to greseable heims as well as to rubber boots for heims which kind of enclose them like the boots on the tre's.

Am I missing anything in that list? Is there anything that anyone can add to it?

Thanks
Remi
 
Heims are stackable (as in you can put one on top of another) where TRE's arent


heims are easier to mess around with - no pickle fork to remove them, easy to install, bolt on and go.

TRE's can be found at auto parts stores if one breaks - no dice with heims...

good info from BillaVista on steering with heims and his "problems" with them:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Steering/Steering_Index/SteeringIndex.htm

I havent had any issues with my heims yet...

I would codder pin and castle nut the bolt that holds them on though -
But maybe im paranoid?
 
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I agree with XJRanger's additions.

I also found that it was far cheaper for me to buy new Heims than to get new TRE's. I bought trail spare heims at the same time. With two trail spares I can replace any of my heims in steering or TB.

Personally I could not be happier with my Heims (no issues with wear so far) and I think they are so much easier to work with on the trail than TRE's.

Michael
 
Heim's also look more hardcore, and since you've gone the asthetic poser mod route lately, that might fit with the them. ;)

*duck*

-C
 
OUCH. nice one Cal.

On that note, I went with heims as well. It was the most logical solution for my problem.

One thing no one mentioned, is that you can pick up 1ton TREs ANYWHERE on a sunday morning...Think i'll have problems finding a quality 3/4" shank heim w/ 5/8" bolt hole?

exactly. So carry spares (as you always should)
 
sintax said:
OUCH. nice one Cal.

On that note, I went with heims as well. It was the most logical solution for my problem.

One thing no one mentioned, is that you can pick up 1ton TREs ANYWHERE on a sunday morning...Think i'll have problems finding a quality 3/4" shank heim w/ 5/8" bolt hole?

exactly. So carry spares (as you always should)

I was going to go with heim's with my next setup, but that exact reason has left me going with WJ tre's. They should be pretty easy to get anywhere, although I'll probably carry spares anyways.
 
I keep thinking this thread is about smacking a tie rod end into a tree.
 
XJ_ranger said:
I would codder pin and castle nut the bolt that holds them on though -

And I would also use a safety washer in a single shear configuration like ranger's

With the safety washer, the heim body can't slip over the head of the bolt in the event of the ball separating from the body.
 
Plenty of good info so far.

Heims (rod ends) will likely wear faster.

Rod ends are much easier to work with.

Parts are easier to take apart and work on with rod ends.

Rod ends are easy to find on a weekend or out in the boonies, just dig in the spare parts box. Also, many others use the same rod ends, making them even more available on the trail.....if needed. I've never seen a rod end on steering that needed to be replaced on the trail.

Rod ends are safer, if a safety washer is used. Spidertrax makes a real good one. I've seen TRE's come apart on the trail, and at speed leading to the trail, which can't happen with a rod end and safety washer. Of course, checking regularly for wear is important with either, but more important with TRE's.

The only joint on my inverted T steering where travel is important is at the pitman arm, where I still use the stock TRE, all the other steering joints don't have to move and use rod ends. I replace the rod ends at the knuckles every couple of years, have never replaced the rod end at the tie rod end of the drag link, and change the TRE at the pitman arm often.

standard.jpg

standard.jpg
 
Dirk Pitt said:
And I would also use a safety washer in a single shear configuration like ranger's

With the safety washer, the heim body can't slip over the head of the bolt in the event of the ball separating from the body.

good call

My joints use a 3/4" thru bolt and the head of the bolt (1-1/8" socket fits) wont allow it to come all the way off, but would let it loosen up quite a bit...

I do plan on running them the same way that FarmerMatt's are in double shear someday later...
 
Goatman said:
Plenty of good info so far.

Heims (rod ends) will likely wear faster.

Rod ends are much easier to work with.

Parts are easier to take apart and work on with rod ends.

Rod ends are easy to find on a weekend or out in the boonies, just dig in the spare parts box. Also, many others use the same rod ends, making them even more available on the trail.....if needed. I've never seen a rod end on steering that needed to be replaced on the trail.

Rod ends are safer, if a safety washer is used. Spidertrax makes a real good one. I've seen TRE's come apart on the trail, and at speed leading to the trail, which can't happen with a rod end and safety washer. Of course, checking regularly for wear is important with either, but more important with TRE's.

The only joint on my inverted T steering where travel is important is at the pitman arm, where I still use the stock TRE, all the other steering joints don't have to move and use rod ends. I replace the rod ends at the knuckles every couple of years, have never replaced the rod end at the tie rod end of the drag link, and change the TRE at the pitman arm often.

standard.jpg

standard.jpg



100% spot on down to the pitman arm comment (which is one of the most important), thats almost the identical setup i will be running except my tie rod wont have the extra adjustable piece and im gonna wrap a single piece of 3/8x3 flat stock all the way around the tie rod for the drag link to connect to instead of welding two seperate pieces. then im going to weld some extra pieces on each side in the event the weld breaks it will stop when it hits either of the stoppers. im paranoid when it comes to my steering after having a bolt come out of a heim goin 60 mph lol, i double nut everything now (although cotter pin would be ideal).
 
Richard, if you had to guess how many miles of trail usage do you get out of hte rod ends that you replace? How would you translate that to street miles? (My rig gets driven to the trail unlike some peoples ;) )
 
Lawn Cher' said:
I keep thinking this thread is about smacking a tie rod end into a tree.
I thought it was an anti-Semetic rant but didn't know who the "tres" were.









Think about it.
It'll come to you.
 
Kejtar said:
Richard, if you had to guess how many miles of trail usage do you get out of hte rod ends that you replace? How would you translate that to street miles? (My rig gets driven to the trail unlike some peoples ;) )

Just for reference. I have got at least 20K miles on my rod ends (off road and to and from the trail only). I have no noticable slop in them yet. I have not got any "boots" to protect them but I like that idea.

Michael
 
gcurtis said:
Hey Richard, this is OT but do you have any better shots of your swaybar mounts, links and whatnot? I'm working on a clearance issue and you may have the hot ticket.

Thanks!

link to pics


Kejtar said:
Richard, if you had to guess how many miles of trail usage do you get out of hte rod ends that you replace? How would you translate that to street miles? (My rig gets driven to the trail unlike some peoples ;) )

Well, remember that I just started towing last year. This Jeep has seen many street miles, including two trips to CO and four trips to Moab, plus a few trips to AZ and all over CA. Anyway, the trail is much harder on the joints than the street is. If you got good rod ends, in the $30+ range, you might never wear them out on the street. I've been using cheap $15 rod ends on the steering, and after beating the snot out of them racing across the desert and miles and miles of hard trails (with 35's and 37's), they last a couple years before getting the slightest amount of movement in the race. Like I said before, I check them regularly.

This isn't rocket science........just do it! :)
 
88rockxj said:
100% spot on down to the pitman arm comment (which is one of the most important), thats almost the identical setup i will be running except my tie rod wont have the extra adjustable piece and im gonna wrap a single piece of 3/8x3 flat stock all the way around the tie rod for the drag link to connect to instead of welding two seperate pieces. then im going to weld some extra pieces on each side in the event the weld breaks it will stop when it hits either of the stoppers. im paranoid when it comes to my steering after having a bolt come out of a heim goin 60 mph lol, i double nut everything now (although cotter pin would be ideal).



I don't get the "wrap 3/8" stock around the tie rod" comment, rather than weld on tabs. Sounds a little ghetto to me, and harder to get the spacing right, unless you're talking about making it a sleeve that bolts tight against the tie rod so you can loosen it to adjust the toe. Don't be so paranoid. :)

Pretty much everyone out there uses weld on tabs, including competitors, plus so do full blown race rigs both road and off-road. If you don't have anymore confidence than that in your welds, then have someone else weld it for you. I've broken three steering boxes and two track bar mounts with my weld on tabs.... :)

How are you going to adjust the toe? I have since changed mine and now I use a QA1 double adjuster, which I recommend to everyone who is building their own steering and using rod ends.
 
Goatman said:
How are you going to adjust the toe? I have since changed mine and now I use a QA1 double adjuster, which I recommend to everyone who is building their own steering and using rod ends.
Adjuster: you mean the part number: ADJ12-12? Also do they have any weld in threaded sections to screw the ends into the tie rod? Or did you just thread the tube?
Also which rod ends (size/part number) did you end up going with?
 
Kejtar said:
Adjuster: you mean the part number: ADJ12-12? Also do they have any weld in threaded sections to screw the ends into the tie rod? Or did you just thread the tube?
Also which rod ends (size/part number) did you end up going with?

Yes, that's the one. It makes fabbing up steering much easier.

Threaded inserts are available from many places, pretty much anywhere that sells fab parts. Polyperformance, Spidertrax, Avalanche Engineering, Blue torch Fabworks, and many others. You can do it either way, thread the ends or use weld in bungs. Many use the threaded inserts because they don't have the taps, and it's easy to fab at home. I bought the taps, so I can do it either way, and on mine I threaded the tube. I have seen threaded inserts come out on the trail, but it's not very common.
 
kid4lyf said:
I thought it was an anti-Semetic rant but didn't know who the "tres" were...

Think about it.
It'll come to you.

The Rabbi recommended I use Heimie joints... they're kosher.
 
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