China

[aroncull]

Ok I want to shed a little light on some thoughts i have and some reading ive done......See what some of you have to say or contribute.

China..

I have, for a long time been worried or at least concerned about them and the military build up that they have underway..

Yes i know we are powerfull and have lots of everything [relativly]..

They have the worlds largest Standing army.. [conscripted]

Anyways i had just finished the second part of an article in the SOF magazine...

Been reading lots of different sources namely newsmax, Life after the oil crash, from the wilderness, and others.. now some of these are lefty sites and some are righty.. all say the same thing about the eventual conflict over taiwan and
recouces in general..

Quote from Soldier of fortune magazine, Jan 06 volume 31 #1
page 81 the last of the article:

" Richard Fisher, vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center, said that in 10 years, the Chinese army has shifted from a defensive force to an advanced military soon capable of operations ranging from space warfare to global non-nuclear cruise-missle strikes. "lets all wake up. The post Cold War peace is over," Mr. Fisher said " We are now in an arms race with a new superpower whose goal is to contain and overtake the United States".

End Quote

ok so i always take everything with a grain of salt but i wanted to start a post for us to talk about China and what it means to our future..

I have alot of thoughts i want to share but need to formulate them and also have to go now anyways so this will be post #1

thanks

aaron

[GSequoia]

I know a really cute Chinese chick.

[Captain Ron]

...
Quote from Soldier of fortune magazine, Jan 06 volume 31 #1
page 81 the last of the article:

" Richard Fisher, vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center, said that in 10 years, the Chinese army has shifted from a defensive force to an advanced military soon capable of operations ranging from space warfare to global non-nuclear cruise-missle strikes. "lets all wake up. The post Cold War peace is over," Mr. Fisher said " We are now in an arms race with a new superpower whose goal is to contain and overtake the United States".

End Quote

...

Riiiiight...

We are their single largest customer. It would not even remotely be in their own best interest. Who would pay our bill?

On the contary, get your hands on some of the latest State Department Assesments.

Taiwan, can you say "No Go". :D

--ron

[Captain Ron]

PS:

No one on this board would let anything happen with China.

Without Harbor Freight, where would you get all of your tools? :D

--ron

[CaptTrev]

I know a really cute Chinese chick.

<--- worthless without pics!! :laugh3:
(sorry, i had to say it!)


:us:

[Ramsey]

PS:

No one on this board would let anything happen with China.

Without Harbor Freight, where would you get all of your tools? :D

--ron
a sad sad truth, how could i make my poop cage without them.

[XJ_ranger]

what are you fishing for?

someone to say they hate chinks?

im not sure i understand your post...

[Geepfreak]

PS:

No one on this board would let anything happen with China.

Without Harbor Freight, where would you get all of your tools? :D

--ron


X2 billion scream'im Chinaman

[8Mud]

If China does make a move, eastern Russia seems likely. Then maybe into the Caspian sea area, can you say oil? Wouldn't it be a hoot, if Russia applied for membership in NATO.

[Lawn Cher']

a sad sad truth, how could i make my poop cage without them.

That's how I did it!

[BSD]

<--- worthless without pics!! :laugh3:
(sorry, i had to say it!)


:us:


No need for pics. Just go look at a 5' 2x4 and you get the general idea! Thanks God or some mad scientist for his greatest creation...silicone! :-)
BSD

[red91]

Thai food is much better than chinesse.

[Lawn Cher']

Thai food is much better than chinesse.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[aroncull]

xj_ranger:

not fishing...
looking for input..
thanks for yours.. LOL

no i am not racist and no i have no personal issue with any certain race...

i stated clearly why i made the post. please do not use this as a means of upping your post count... real discussion, not antics thanks..

so just to be the devils advocate in discussion terms...

we are thier largest customer.... ok but did you also know that they own a great deal of our debt and also own a good deal of our banks notes? that means that we owe them money yes but they actually own a good deal of our money and realestate through bank notes.. there is not many financail reasons that would stop them from going into taiwan.. thay have us over the barrel...


the bottom line here, i believe is the recource base.. and eventual collapse of diplomacy over heating oil and control of oil and the true power it has...
thats when the SHTF, we can like to think that they have no ability to project power and control resources near to them but recently that has changed.

some food for thought:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/092502_endgame.html


a qoute from a different FTW article:

"China – The Number One priority

There are three reasons why China is the US's number-one geostrategic concern. First, within the next decade China and the United States will be the largest users and competitors for the world's rapidly diminishing oil reserves. Both the US and China will be importing as much as 80-90% of their oil within the next twenty years and together – in order to sustain their economies – will be using as much as 60-70% of all the oil that is produced globally. Second, China vehemently opposed the US invasion of Iraq. Third, the expanding Chinese economy and China's stranglehold on the US trade deficit has placed China in a position to challenge the US for global economic supremacy.

The first SARS case appeared almost at the same time that Western financial institutions were forecasting a record growth in China's gross domestic product of between 7.5 and 7.6 percent. They also appeared just before the US invasion of Iraq which China was opposing. According to Beijing Mayor Dr. Jiang Yangyong, the first case of SARS was reported on March 1, 2003, when an elderly man was admitted to a Beijing military hospital with the disease. At this time China had openly opposed the US invasion of Iraq and the military invasion itself was just eighteen days away.

The outbreak was reportedly covered up in order to avoid any disruption of the Chinese National People's Congress, which began in Beijing on March 5. When the disease began spreading and Chinese officials finally scurried to deal with the virus, the economic cost to mainland China had become devastating -- $2.2 billion according to the Far Eastern Economic Review. SARS also cost Hong Kong an additional $1.7 billion. The first public reports of the SARS virus appeared in press stories on March 19th and 20th. The US invasion of Iraq began on March 19.

Coincidence?

China had been outshining the US in the eyes of the non-aligned world. For the Bush administration, in the middle of America's worst economic downturn in ten years and spending billions on the war against Iraq, the idea of a booming Chinese economy did not sit well. China was also in the final stages of planning its first manned space launch at a time when the United States had lost its second space shuttle due to incompetence. The contrast between an economically vitalized China and a United States caught in the malaise of recession, war, and technological failure could not have been more apparent."


the article is huge and goes on to say that sars will have a major impact on the growth of the chinese economy. Read at you leasure LOL its huge...

ok so i have more research to do.. i will do that after the kids go to sleep...

anyways this is not a racist post of anysort nor am i "fishing" for hate mongering or anything.. just want some discussion...

aaron

[red91]

Thai food is still better.

[Gil BullyKatz]

Thai food is still better.

What about Korean?

Kalbi and Bulkogi?

Chinese is ancient and Thai is passe'

[Bent]

China is ready to implode. I give them ten years max. Think I'm nuts? I called the fall of the USSR ~10 years out too.

[carmike692000]

Tender steak with rice with soy sauce and some shrimp. Mmm. That's a good meal.

I don't know what to think about China, though. I'd hate to have to live there, and I hate it for the folks who do.

[w_howey]

Your point about Chinese investment in US debt, or securities is interesting. But, rather pointless. The first act after an active war declaration would be siezing absolutely every single penny of Chinese investment in this country. The treasury would also declare any debt owned by them 'null and void'. All US government debt held by a foreign power or resident can be so declared. Only government debt held by US citizens or headquartered corporations cannot have this done to it. Notice I said citizens not residents, even legal aliens can have the same done to them.

Ask Iran how much would they like the 300 plus million sitting in US banks back.

Actually, they do have alot to lose financially. How damaging would be a trade embargo against China? Ask the longshoreman in Long Beach, or workers at the intermodal terminals in Chicago how much Chinese freight they handle.

A conflict with China is a scary, scary concept. The crux of the problem, is that simply we can't kill Chinese troops conscripted or otherwise fast enough to stop them. I sincerly doubt wether the conflict would take place in the US or China. The most likely place will be in Southest Asia.


BTW, I believe Russia, or one of the other former USSR countries have already applied to NATO, and at least one of them has already joined.


EDIT: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. Joined NATO 2004

Croatia and Macedonia are both in the 'Membership plan' for joining NATO.

From the NATO website concerning Russia:

What is Russia’s status – is it a partner country?

A: Yes. NATO and Russia made a reciprocal commitment to work together to build a stable, secure and undivided continent on the basis of partnership and common interest in 1997.

This commitment was strengthened in May 2002, with the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council, which brings together the 26 NATO Allies and Russia to identify and pursue opportunities for joint action at 27 as equal partners.

[aroncull]

OK! great points!!

Very interesting about the new members of NATO...

i do believe that if the lefties in China want taiwan they would get it.. mostly due to our economy and theres being so closly tied to each other...

mutal distruction in a wierd way...
but then again it could go both ways...

i think i am to tired to go on right now i will post later... thanks for the good info..

aaron

[XTrmXJ]

This has been sought after for a while and they always have been.. When I was stationed back in Okinawa, @2000 when Taiwan was trying to separate from China, and we told Taiwan that we (US) would help them claim indepenence.. Bad on our part.. China made a threat to the US saying that we could not afford to trade California for Taiwan.. Ya, we ran.. Now imagine being on a freakin Island right inside Chinas reach of missiles when all that was happening, NOT COOL... The news papers printed out there armory, manning, aircrafts, weapons etc, etc, they could have destroyed us with all that they have, DONT F WITH A SUPER POWER...

[XJ Dreamin']

we are their largest customer.... ok but did you also know that they own a great deal of our debt and also own a good deal of our banks notes? that means that we owe them money yes but they actually own a good deal of our money and real estate through bank notes.. there is not many financial reasons that would stop them from going into Taiwan.. they have us over the barrel...

I heard this recently. It took me a little while to remember why this does not disturb me. Folks who worry about foreigners owning chuncks of US money are forgetting the US policy regarding foreign debt. We don't give a sheit. Who cares how much they own. This is the good ol' US of A. If foreign ownership becomes a problem, we'll just take it back. No big deal.

.. and eventual collapse of diplomacy over [whatever]...

Again, US policy is, "Who Gives a Shait." We don't need diplomacy to buy Chinese made crap.


that's when the SHTF, we can like to think that they have no ability to project power and control resources near to them but recently that has changed.

They're having trouble projecting power within their own borders. The good ol' US dollar has usurped the party line. They are falling under our spell doodoodoodoo...doodoodoodoo

Both the US and China will be importing as much as 80-90% of their oil within the next twenty years

There is no way that China (no matter what their population might climb to) can compete with the US in the arena of oil consumption. Nobody wastes more than an American consumer. Hands down, really, there is no way that China can ever come close to using oil the way we do.

the expanding Chinese economy and China's stranglehold on the US trade deficit has placed China in a position to challenge the US for global economic supremacy.

The Chinese economy isn't really expanding (whatever "expanding economy" means). They're just shifting their rural agricultural production population over to an urban industrial consumer serf population. The largest increase in Chinese imports is rice, not oil. Nobody in China cares if the workers are warm or not, as long as they are fed. Meanwhile, there are fewer folks in China growing stuff.

The US money moving to China (that worries some folks) fills a very few pockets within China. When the Chinese economy collapses (and theirs' will collapse before ours' does) the owners of those pockets will pull up stakes and relocate to protect their holdings here. And, they will bring our money with them.

"Global ecomomic supremacy"? Please. That belongs to the global international corporations: not to any lowly government.

The first SARS case... Coincidence?

Wow. Got me on that one. So, did we seed China with SARS because they were threatening to "stop" the US going into Iraq? Did I read that right? Who gives a shait what China thought about Iraq. China can't stop us bombing whoever Chaney's business partners decide the US needs to bomb. We'll bomb whoever they damn well think we need to bomb to further their interests and shore up their stock options, and China can't do a damn thing about it.

China had been outshining the US in the eyes of the non-aligned world.

again...Wow. Who gives a shait about the non-aligned world?

China was also in the final stages of planning its first manned space launch at a time when the United States had lost its second space shuttle due to incompetence.

Do you think that the Chinese space program is competent? From whom do you think they stole the technology? Get a grip.

Read at you leasure

I don't have any leasure. I'm too busy responding to the off-topic/non-tech forum at NAXJA :laugh3: :us: .

[XJ Dreamin']

China is ready to implode. I give them ten years max. Think I'm nuts? I called the fall of the USSR ~10 years out too.

The aproaching famine in China will rival any in their history, and make the recent North Korean food shortages look like a diet fad. The party power base is sucking up every US dollar that enters the country while the agricultural base that has sustained China for 5,000 years is being dismantled to provide labor to stock Harbor Freight stores in the US. Ten years has a 99% confidence. I would say five years is probably close to 70% confidence for a major event in China.

The real question is: How much will we pay Haliburten to rebuild China?

[aroncull]

Thats what i was looking for... awesome XJ_dreamin...

Havnt seen anything about a famine in china but its obvious how the communists in the country treat the labor force or the people in general...

My hope is that we wake up to the fact that as the country [china] goes up or down hill we need to watch them and the military that they have. It seems to me that sometimes we Americans....[yeah yeah] we can be little too confident about our abilities militarily and i would like us to always believe and strive for a stronger more stable fighting force able to deal with anything that comes its way..... try to fend off the complacency that we have for new fighting abilites and technology....

[Vertisce]

Personally I am just jealous...they still make the XJ in China.

[RTicUL8]

Okie-Dokie

Might as well add the conspiracy theory into the mix:

You know those chemtrails put off by mystery airplanes? They contain a metal element that in conjunction with the HARP weather modifying electrical array in Alaska, is decimating the atmosphere over China.

You think that those holes in the ozone are because of car emissions…pu-lease!
HARP has the ability to blows major portions of the earth’s atmosphere into space.
The focused beam over China will make their crops fail big-time!
They will have to buy our genetically modified food!
They will soon be our slaves!
Payback for all that cheap sh*t they send us will soon be ours!

Buaha-ha!

http://www.hemsuth.de/archiv/pb/pbbrain.jpg

[Vertisce]

Okie-Dokie

Might as well add the conspiracy theory into the mix:

You know those chemtrails put off by mystery airplanes? They contain a metal element that in conjunction with the HARP weather modifying electrical array in Alaska, is decimating the atmosphere over China.

You think that those holes in the ozone are because of car emissions…pu-lease!
HARP has the ability to blows major portions of the earth’s atmosphere into space.
The focused beam over China will make their crops fail big-time!
They will have to buy our genetically modified food!
They will soon be our slaves!
Payback for all that cheap sh*t they send us will soon be ours!

Buaha-ha!

http://www.hemsuth.de/archiv/pb/pbbrain.jpg


I think the idea is to just kill off all the people in china and india. That would effectively cut our planets population in half.

[Root Moose]

Maybe I'm naive, but if I was a superpower, or on the verge of becoming a superpower, why the hell would I want to attack another power of similar strength?

Then I have to "manage" the fall out in the aftermath - either my own people's or those of the conquered.

Why do that when I can negotiate business to obtain what I want and let the people already in power manage/oppress/curtail their own people?

Blowing shit up is easy; it's managing the aftermath that is the hard part. Look at Iraq or look at second world war Europe for that matter for a juxtapostiion (don't welcome the new victors versus welcoming).

As a Canadian I'm no more worried about the Chinese than I am of U.S. tanks rolling into Alberta or U.S. ships into the Grand Banks. So far the Chinese have just been buying what they want (steel comes to mind).

What we really need to be worried about with respect to China is getting them off the fossil fuel addiction as quickly as we do ourselves. With their population and increasing individual affluence it's just a matter of time before there is a permanent cloud of pollution that starts in China and doesn't dissipate until it gets to the west coast of North America.

[mylt1]

No need for pics. Just go look at a 5' 2x4 and you get the general idea! Thanks God or some mad scientist for his greatest creation...silicone! :-)
BSD
we still want a pic. hell even one from a camara phone would be ok.

[red91]

What about Korean?

Kalbi and Bulkogi?

Chinese is ancient and Thai is passe'

There are Korean places around here...other than that we're not really advanced in the NW.

:D

I wish we had EXIT out here.

[Beej]

I agree with Captain Ron, Bent, Root Moose and some of what XJ Dreamin' said.

Ain't no thang...

[GSequoia]

Who cares what you think?

Fawking fat-obsessed Canadian.

[Beej]

Who cares what you think?

See what some of you have to say or contribute.

Fawking fat-obsessed Canadian Just for that, I'm having this thread moved to the Den. (Or maybe they'll just delete my post? :D )

Anyway, you're just jealous...

http://www.chubby-movie.com/chubby-movie010/pictures/chubby-01.jpg

[XJ_ranger]

Just for that, I'm having this thread moved to the Den. (Or maybe they'll just delete my post? :D )

Anyway, you're just jealous...

http://www.chubby-movie.com/chubby-movie010/pictures/chubby-01.jpg


have to delete two posts now... :D

[BSD]

I wonder if you lift up her boob and look...will it say "made in china"?

[Root Moose]

Can't... Restrain... Self...

Please! To the Den!

[Lawn Cher']

I got your China...

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/winc/images/pics/chyna1.jpg

[karstic]

What we really need to be worried about with respect to China is getting them off the fossil fuel addiction as quickly as we do ourselves. With their population and increasing individual affluence it's just a matter of time before there is a permanent cloud of pollution that starts in China and doesn't dissipate until it gets to the west coast of North America.

Too late, why do you think Bush won't sign on to the Kyoto Accord? China is seen as a developing nation and not held to the provisions in the Kyoto accord. National Geographic ran an article within the last year describing the problem you just elucidated as already happening.

[Root Moose]

If I am understanding your point, that is like saying we should be cannibals because some island in the south Pacific still does it. :)

Bush won't sign Kyoto because the lobbyists don't want it and politicians don't think beyond the length of their mandate. If you are a cynic tag on "there's no money in it for Bush" as well.

Kyoto is kinda misguided anyway. IIRC, it makes no provisions for pollution, only CO2. CO2 is important, but at the rate China (or the rest of us for that matter) is billowing smoke we'll be dead of environmental toxins before CO2 becomes a real issue. There is a linkage between pollution and CO2 of course, but if they had made that linkage front and center there would be much better buy in.

[Beej]

why do you think Bush won't sign on to the Kyoto Accord?Maybe because he resides squarely in the pocket of big business? :dunno:

[Rambo]

http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/bush_can_of_whoop_ass.jpg

[aroncull]

Hmmmm interesting.. i guess that the chemtrails or HARRP will get us before the BLACK OPS will huh.. Yeah hmm well i certainly dont believe in that stuff...
but i do believe in war over resources.. namely 2 of them that are connected to everything we do, eat, sleep and wipe our selves with...

OIL
WATER

so to me eventually there will come a point when the "superpowers" will go head to head over the OIL and WATER that is left.. [cheap sweet oil]

So i am hoping that most of you can dicern the difference of a conspiracy such as the "weapons of mass distruction" to get into Iraq.. as well as the idea of Abiotic Oil.

Now i really really really hope that non of you believe in Abiotic Oil..= total nonsense...


Otherwise good points gental men very good thank you for those who contributed
-Aaron

[Ramsey]

beej, what the hell are you doing with an anorexic chick like that?

Just for that, I'm having this thread moved to the Den. (Or maybe they'll just delete my post? :D )

Anyway, you're just jealous...

http://www.chubby-movie.com/chubby-movie010/pictures/chubby-01.jpg

[XJ Dreamin']

Have seen anything about a famine in china but its obvious how the communists in the country treat the labor force or the people in general...

About 20 years ago I saw a story. It began with a question: What country was most advanced in the medical techniques of limb reattachment and autonomous transplant? The answer? China. Why? Because they have no OSHA. The government doesn't give a shait about it workers. Open blades, no safeties on presses. Twenty years ago there were more amputations per capita in China than any other country in the world. I doubt that much has changed in that regard. As noted in this thread, they certainly have no regard for pollution. My folks were there about 10 years ago. The main thing my mom remembers is, no mosquitoes...and no birds. Walking around anywhere the least bit urban, she didn't hear any birds.

My hope is that we wake up to the fact that as the country [china] goes up or down hill we need to watch them and the military that they have. It seems to me that sometimes we Americans....[yeah yeah] we can be little too confident about our abilities militarily and i would like us to always believe and strive for a stronger more stable fighting force able to deal with anything that comes its way..... try to fend off the complacency that we have for new fighting abilities and technology....

Of course we need to watch them - they're sneaky (sorry: non-PC ethnic slur. Sometimes I can't help myself). However, I think the threat level is pretty low. As to famine: China has always operated on a razor's edge regarding feeding the populace. With the move to urban industrial labor, they're losing what little cushion they have.

Steven Colbert had a magnificent summary of American confidence through the ages on the Colbert Report Monday or Tuesday night. funny stuff and oh so true.

[8Mud]

If I am understanding your point, that is like saying we should be cannibals because some island in the south Pacific still does it. :)

Bush won't sign Kyoto because the lobbyists don't want it and politicians don't think beyond the length of their mandate. If you are a cynic tag on "there's no money in it for Bush" as well.

Kyoto is kinda misguided anyway. IIRC, it makes no provisions for pollution, only CO2. CO2 is important, but at the rate China (or the rest of us for that matter) is billowing smoke we'll be dead of environmental toxins before CO2 becomes a real issue. There is a linkage between pollution and CO2 of course, but if they had made that linkage front and center there would be much better buy in.

Anybody that thinks Kyoto is some kind of altruistic undertaking is being kind of naive. It's just another way for the industrialized and non industrialized nations to influence American industry. Does anybody actually think a German car maker wouldn't use Kyoto accord guidelines to improve there market position? Or an agricultural country to use the Kyoto accords to influence tarrifs. Bush is just not going to play that game. It's just another way to stir the pot and get the money flowing in different directions. And at the same time grow another bureaucracy to monitor and administer it. The new bureaucracy will inevitably become political. And it would be doubtful, anything it accomplished, would be good for America.
Most of the signatories of the Kyoto accords, probably have little to loose and the major players are looking to make gains, by changing and controlling the rules.
The Kyoto accords remind me of the push to have American soldiers accountable to the World court. Whomever controls the World Court would have a very large influence on American politics.
To put it simply, most Europeans and many other countries believe anything that is bad for America is good for them. Talk about short sighted. Whomever manages to finally topple America, will undoubtedly cause the failure of much of the worlds economy. And there is probably one chance in three that whatever eventually replaces America will be any better.
But they are bound to keep chipping away at America whenever possible. For whatever gain they think they can make.

[Roxtar]

What about Korean?

Kalbi and Bulldoggie?

Chinese is ancient and Thai is passe'Fixed

[Root Moose]

Anybody that thinks Kyoto is some kind of altruistic undertaking is being kind of naive. It's just another way for the industrialized and non industrialized nations to influence American industry. Does anybody actually think a German car maker wouldn't use Kyoto accord guidelines to improve there market position? Or an agricultural country to use the Kyoto accords to influence tarrifs. Bush is just not going to play that game. It's just another way to stir the pot and get the money flowing in different directions. And at the same time grow another bureaucracy to monitor and administer it. The new bureaucracy will inevitably become political. And it would be doubtful, anything it accomplished, would be good for America.

Agreed. The intent of Kyoto is generally good if you believe in CO2 issues but by the same token anything that mucks with economies in this scale is going to make the money flow in a different direction. Kyoto is kinda like the hybrid cars that are out. In the final financial analysis the only winner is the environment because you haven't saved any money paying for a more expensive shoe box that gets marginally better fuel economy than another cheaper shoe box. "The Environment" doesn't have a balance sheet so there is no incentive to carry on.

Most of the signatories of the Kyoto accords, probably have little to loose and the major players are looking to make gains, by changing and controlling the rules.
The Kyoto accords remind me of the push to have American soldiers accountable to the World court. Whomever controls the World Court would have a very large influence on American politics.
To put it simply, most Europeans and many other countries believe anything that is bad for America is good for them. Talk about short sighted. Whomever manages to finally topple America, will undoubtedly cause the failure of much of the worlds economy. And there is probably one chance in three that whatever eventually replaces America will be any better.
But they are bound to keep chipping away at America whenever possible. For whatever gain they think they can make.

Almost sounds like a free market economy dealing with with the big gorilla that dominates the market, no? <chip/ > <chip/ >

:D

Unfortunately, what most governments don't realize is that there is money to be made within their country whether they embrace Kyoto or not. Countries like the U.S. that are not signatories[sp?] would be smart to "cherry pick" the parts of Kyoto that could be used to generate money/revenue within their borders, sh!te can the rest. Make themselves look good by lock stepping what they do accept out of Kyoto with anti-pollution legislation (potentially also a big money maker).

As a "friggen' foreigner" with a view of the U.S. from the outside what continually surprises me is that other "FF"s don't realize that the U.S. will only do what is good for U.S. interests, not counter to them. That's no different than any other country but the U.S. has the "front and center" position so they are an easy target when others disagree with the immediate tact taken.

David Suzuki made an interesting point once with respect to stuff like Kyoto affecting the economy, paraphrasing: "The economy is a man made thing, if the economy doesn't work in this new "climate" then change the economy before we kill ourselves". What good is an economy for a dead planet?

Ultimately, I believe the fear of Kyoto, China, whatever is the expression of the most dangerous aspect of the human species: the fear of change/difference. No matter how "advanced" our technology becomes, at this stage our societies (i.e. humanity) are still pretty primitive. A frightened, shivering mouse backed into a dark corner comes to mind whenever I see public displays of "power".

[8Mud]

Ultimately, I believe the fear of Kyoto, China, whatever is the expression of the most dangerous aspect of the human species: the fear of change/difference. No matter how "advanced" our technology becomes, at this stage our societies (i.e. humanity) are still pretty primitive. A frightened, shivering mouse backed into a dark corner comes to mind whenever I see public displays of "power".

I don't think the idea (or the goals) of Kyoto is bad or even unneeded. I just think it will be subverted, like the vast majority of politically driven agendas. Or on an even more realistic level, will be transformed into a real money maker. Read the proposition, running the whole thing like the stock market, buying and selling C02 futures and credits.
Resources are finite, wasting them on doomed exercises is wasteful. Shooting yourself in the foot by giving, even partial control of your business, to somebody of doubtful honesty is dumb.
Global warming is a problem, doubt Kyoto is the answer. I've been talking about global warming, way before it became the topic of the day. The whole thing was fairly evident in the mid 70`s. For a hobby naturalist like myself, it was kind of a glaring phenomenon.
Cutting back on CO2 emissions makes sense, harvesting forests, in a managed way makes sense. Trying to control the whole thing by posting it onto he stock exchange, sounds ludicrous.
The fear of change? You bet, change anything and the results are unpredictable **(global warming is change)**. We are paying the penalty now for the good/new ideas of the late 1800's and early 1900's. Think of the complexity of the economy, the more complex anything is (generally) the more fragile it becomes. Every time the base index for borrowing changes a quarter of a percent, a whole lot of people do a whole lot of hand wringing.
I can think of a whole lot of new ideas, that when implemented, turned out radically different from the intended results. It's kind of like the ecology, cut down a tree in the Amazon and the Sahara gets a little dryer.
Just to throw something out there, people are encouraged to buy newer fuel efficient cars. The car it's replacing cost resources and energy to produce, if it's retired before it's lifespan is up, that's wasted energy. The energy consumed in the production of it's replacement, may or may not reach the break even point in it's lifetime. Or in other words, the CO2 gases generated in it's production, the CO2 gases wasted in the production of the car it replaced and the CO2 produced by all of the employees that participated in it's production and the reduced CO2 emissions it will produce in it's lifetime, may or may not offset each other. It may actually produce more garbage. Fuel efficient cars, good idea, a practical solution, unlikely in a single generation.
I figured out a long time ago, it's doubtful the saved CO2 will ever equal the CO2 expended and wasted in the process of change.

[w_howey]

...

http://www.chubby-movie.com/chubby-movie010/pictures/chubby-01.jpg


MEOW!!!!

[GSequoia]

Bark bark.