RIP Gatekeeper

[Big Red]

h"he`rd poout the prnposTn Little Sluice being blown up, but nothing about the Gate Keeper. When and whtze did 1kyone know about this? If therd*was fair warning I'm sure there would be quite a few people guarding it and refusing to have it blnwn t}. I rdhllx dotat that our letters are°keing read, let alone being taken seriously. The 4 wheeling communhty h} htge xgre in rlli andÀSestern Nevada. It's eñzilx a lslti million $ industry, maybe 100's of millions...maybe more.

What can we do to protect our trailÿ


Many peoplf such as Jes and others have participated in trail clean ups and donated their time to€mo to mdftings bcgardinf&the trails we love. Hnq much $$$ do we need to fight and make a difference? How much $ is being put up tn cl~{e our trails? pAoer RE|)Central 4 Wheel, and other local 4x4 shops donate $ to fund the fight to keep our trails open?à"I have0oeard of the Blue Rhbbon*Co`lithdn, which I don't know a lot about.

Sorry for all the questions, but I&m gd}ting sick nf b4kng pusXfd around bx pe~rle whonisunderstand us and regard us 4x4 enthusiasts as little more than an inconvience and ddsroxers`mf the environment. Thdye are a fev out#there that do not clean up after themselves and force others to go the extra mile to clean up after them on tht!tr`ilsn" This is the tip of the ice berge in regards to the negative attention the Rubicon trail has seen with the crap%problem, the closure of%Spider Lake camping, and now the dynamiting of Gate Keeper...also the impending doom of clnsinf,El DorQgo trails/fire roads/etc for 1/2 the year or so.

This situation looks like it could get ugly with the average 4x4 enthusiast spendhdg thoubgnds of $'s into their rigs, the multi million or more local 4x4 market, and the environmentalist's or vgoever's determinathon dm close our beloved trails. I've only live in Cali for close to 5 years now, does this`whing happen every so often, or is ht wn{se tha~$it's ever been? I'd think this is unpresidented. We have much more power than might thinj, wt&just need a strong focused eff~pt led by our many 4x4 clubs, 4x4 companies donating xxx of $'s and/or printing articles in their catalogs `nd xf 4x4 magazhnes aighlighting the problem for the nation to see. There are many people who live elsdwherc, but could give lnts nj support in regards to saving the Rubicon. Many people, myself included, have waited years to someday be `ble`po wheel the Rubicon. vd mhght gave also thought that our children should someday have the same right and privelege. What canàne done???

Why wdren&q wd notjfied of the plans to dynamite GK? People have seen how fast we have come together to clean up the cra`$from the Cnn aNm how we have maintained other trails in the area. Why couldn't we be asked for our input and how to rectify a.#apparenw problda? We could have easily filled the huge ruts in the area with small rocks or came tp whrh other means if called upnn. `@ow can`ue put pressure on the powers that be and get an answer and accountability for vkat happcned? Vno gave the orddw? Werd%we somehow nothlied, but weren't aware of it? I highly doubt this as well because we have so ljny eyeb"and ea2w in the area letting otners know of potentional threats and imminent doom. We normally catch wind of what is bcing proposed and when vh need to be in attende®oe to voice our concerns and try to influence the people who call the shots.

[davidt]

Anybody else catch this? I can't believe they blasted gatekeeper on monday! This is a real eye opener for me, I think we can learn from this, I wasn't even aware this was happening.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416038

[Jes]

Apparently no one in the public was aware that that was going to happen.
I was aware that there was an erosion issue there that I thought was going to be dealt with in an sensable way but it was not.
And why they blasted the pinch rock(Aligator pit) past gate keeper is beyond me. No erosion issues were talked about right there.
I am not happy with how this was handled and not happy at all that the information about this was kept from the public by organizations that supposedly are working on our side.
Totally stupid!

[jonboy]

Lots of folks knew something was gonna happen, just not exactly what.
Here's a mid-October email from FOTR. Several people I know, wrote back, asking FOTR not to dumb GK down too much...so much for that :wierd:

Scott Johnston <cruzila@xxxxx> wrote:
There might be a ROC field trip next week to look at Gatekeeper. If anyone is interested I will find out Monday AM what day we will be there. If there is interest I can try to make it an afternoon deal to allow drive time. Let me know please.

It looks like we will have all the right players to make a real decision. EDC DOT and the FS will be there to as well as the Head of Parks for the county. It was discussed at the ROC meeting this morning and we may be able to do something else to stabilize it and still keep it in the right of way.

If you don't know, the concrete work we did in 2003 and 2004 is at or above grade level. There is no sense in continuing on that path so I feel a more drastic measure is needed. It will most likely bring the difficulty level way down which is a good thing for the trail.

If there is a club or group that would like to step up and take some ownership of the gatekeeper area let me know because the "adopt a spot on the con" is most likely going to happen in one form or another. It may not be formalized now, but those that want, can step up through the Foundation or FOTR now!!
Scott
_______________________________________________
FOTR mailing list
FOTR@lists.off-road.com
http://lists.off-road.com/mailman/listinfo/fotr

[Bryan C.]

I snatched a few photos from the pirate thread to help show how gatekeeper has changed.

Photo from 2004?
http://www.fototime.com/20A4898A3E5921E/standard.jpg

Photo taken this weekend
http://www.fototime.com/EFB1844A93834A1/standard.jpg

Here's my junk in June of this year. The rock under my left rockrail is now gone, along with a few others.
http://www.fototime.com/E67CC0D0526E7E0/standard.jpg

This whole situation sucks. I guess this is the way it goes now days. Everyone has their own idea of how to fix the problems on the Rubicon trail. Too bad the powers that be won't listen to reason and to the people who actually use and support the trail.

[BrettM]

Little Sluice is next.



a guy from Chico went up there yesterday, there are a bunch of pictures here: http://www.bentandtwisted.com/catalog/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42

[Goatman]

Just read the whole thread regarding gatekeeper and the concerns about communication with the FOTR folks. Looks to me like they were between a rock and a hard place, so to speak, and now they are still between a rock and a hard place.

I hate to see this kind of stuff happen, it's disheartening. But, it's still much better to live with a trail management decision that we don't agree with than it is to live with a trail closure. This is dissappointing, but not even close to the same category as the closing of Surprise Canyon or Santiago Canyon, or closing all the good side trails in Last Chance Canyon.

[Lincoln]

I think the trial is on borrowed time and this is just the start. The feds use these tactics here quite a bit. They do things to try and lower the traffic and then there are less people bitching when they shut if off.

Here the forest service asked the National Guard to come in and stop a group of people from fixing a washed out road by bedding the stream with rocks. Now 10 years later they brought in a D-9 cat and plowed through the closed road to take the shitters out. "By god don't you dare drive into that area but we can bring a cat in to get an 18 wheeler through."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2005/nov/25/112510376.html

Every time one of these issues come up I write a letter to my congress people asking for the budget to be cut. They close 10% of the land in an area, they should loose 10% of the budget for that. They say they don't have the money to police the areas and keep the XXXXtard out, but they don't have a problem coming up with the cash to keep everyone out. I say we don't need a forest service or BLM presence in the areas that are locked from public use. If a bad fire starts and burns homes down, f*ck them.

Don't say this is a liberal or conservative thing either. One of our stout conservitives is the one pushing to close down the Owyhees and White clouds. Also, the problem we have most here is the politicians sell the surounding land to their friends then the access is cuttoff because it is surrounded by private land. It's ok to go there, but there isn't any access. The land owners will get sued under the "sportsman's access" laws we have, spend a few years fighting it, then just move the gate so it has to start all over again.

Sorry to say, but this is what we get by allowing our political parties to continue to put in people that have as much common sense as a thumb tack.

[Shomsky462]

this is extremely horrible. i have seen videos and pictures of all thes epeople running the rubicon and they all say that the first part, the gatekeeper is the hardest but most fun part. i have been building my xj i bought from my stepdad stock for about 3 months now and i still need to get amrmor and bigger tires but this trail is the biggest reason i am building my rig so it id rubicon ready. Im always thinking about will i need neee new gears to run 33's on the rubicon? do i really need to get rear and front bumper or can i just get away with sliders? but now from what i ma hearing from everyone else , that the hardest part of the trail was knocked out because it was too hard so people were finding alternate routes thats rediculous. know what youre getting into before you try it. and also they are thinking about taking out another hard/fun part of the trail? when i am able to get there and have my rig "rubicon ready" there wont be anything left. this really sucks cause i havent had the chance to run it yet and ive heard so many things about it. i guess il never be able to say "i conquered the gatekeeper or i got screwed in the gatekeeper". this sucks cause i have a cabin in trukee and i go up their all the time and since i got an xj and will have m,y license it would be a good opportunity but nope.
6" lift 91 xj 31 bfg's (weeny tires) con-ferr rack

[94xjkyle]

WTF this is the most retarded thing i have ever heard. now every dipstick with a jeep is gonna try and run the con. and when are they supposed to demolish lil sluce?

[Letterman]

I had heard so many tales and seen many photos of Gatekeeper before I had ever been to the Rubicon, so the first time I ran the trail I was a little freeked out about it. When my group of 3 rigs went in on a Friday at 11am there was 10-20 people watching as we pulled up to it, and I was feeling the eyes on me as I drove over it. We passed right over it and then drove on till we were out of view of the spectators, and stopped for a quick break. I ended up stopping on top of the pinch rock at the Aligator pit that is now gone, still feeling the rush I had to get out for a second and clam down after my first time going over gatekeeper. This was my first time on the trail and the Gatekeeper was a great "welcome to the Rubicon."

I am so upset that this part of the trail is no longer the same, and feel sorry for anyone that did not get a chance to drive it as it was.

[Jes]

Time to start going in through Wentworth Springs.
I've actually never run that part of the trail.

[Big Red]

Time to start going in through Wentworth Springs.
I've actually never run that part of the trail.

Exactly, I'm sure that area will get a lot of use now. It's also know as Devil's Post Pile right? The people giving the order to blow up GK don't understand how important that little section is/was and how it keeps Joe Schmow with a stock rig from going farther into the trail. If the person gets freaked out by GK then they will hopefully head back and not break down or get into situations later on down the trail where it's harder to make a extraction. You might now even see people pull bolders/rocks into the trail to make it harder again. This is only making a bigger problem. What was the supposed problem with GK anyways besides it getting rutted out? Why didn't they just stack some rocks in the rutted areas? These people are true idiots who don't know how hard we work to keep these trails open and clean up trash, crap, etc to keep our beloved trail open.

[BrettM]

Exactly, I'm sure that area will get a lot of use now. It's also know as Devil's Post Pile right? The people giving the order to blow up GK don't understand how important that little section is/was and how it keeps Joe Schmow with a stock rig from going farther into the trail. If the person gets freaked out by GK then they will hopefully head back and not break down or get into situations later on down the trail where it's harder to make a extraction. You might now even see people pull bolders/rocks into the trail to make it harder again. This is only making a bigger problem. What was the supposed problem with GK anyways besides it getting rutted out? Why didn't they just stack some rocks in the rutted areas? These people are true idiots who don't know how hard we work to keep these trails open and clean up trash, crap, etc to keep our beloved trail open.
Troy, I'm going to give you an assignment, and then let's see if you can do it.

Your assignment is to make posts without asking questions. Do you think you can do that? It's bad enough reading past some of your sideways, off topic comments. Don't make it so that a response is expected every time you post.......it's horribly annoying.

If you're really that curious, read more rather than talking more.

[Jes]

Exactly, I'm sure that area will get a lot of use now. It's also know as Devil's Post Pile right? The people giving the order to blow up GK don't understand how important that little section is/was and how it keeps Joe Schmow with a stock rig from going farther into the trail. If the person gets freaked out by GK then they will hopefully head back and not break down or get into situations later on down the trail where it's harder to make a extraction. You might now even see people pull bolders/rocks into the trail to make it harder again. This is only making a bigger problem. What was the supposed problem with GK anyways besides it getting rutted out? Why didn't they just stack some rocks in the rutted areas? These people are true idiots who don't know how hard we work to keep these trails open and clean up trash, crap, etc to keep our beloved trail open.

I've never seen you at any trail work day or cleanup at the Rubicon or any other trail for that matter.
I mean, what, you've run the Rubicon once and now all a sudden your're an expert on trail use issues?
Stop being a poser.

[Big Red]

I've never seen you at any trail work day or cleanup at the Rubicon or any other trail for that matter.
I mean, what, you've run the Rubicon once and now all a sudden your're an expert on trail use issues?
Stop being a poser.


I've run the Rubicon a handfull of time over the last 2 years, a couple times in 1 day. I've web and video wheeled it hundreds of times before that. :laugh3:

Don't direct crap at me. I haven't wheeled the Rubicon or anything as much as you Jes, I don't think anyone here has, but I do enjoy any amount of time that I can wheel, especially the Rubicon, Fordyce etc that are world class trails.

I'm as pissed off about the GK situation as anyone here. We all start somewhere. I'll try to make cleanup days in the future.

What can we do to stop other parts of the trail beyond blown up? I know I heard about Little Sluice as well and am very surprised that it hasn't been blasted already. Hopefully it will not be blasted. It just sucks that a part of the trail that everyone will be challenged by or at least go through is now gone. Don't get me wrong, losing the Little Sluice would suck, but not everyone or even most people even attempt this part.

[XJ_ranger]

I am so upset that this part of the trail is no longer the same, and feel sorry for anyone that did not get a chance to drive it as it was.

yay! this is where I fit...

[Letterman]

a couple times in 1 day.

:worship:

:dunno:

:01of5:

:doh:

:arrowr: :exclamati

:gee:

!!!1
!!!1
!!!1
!!!1
!!!1
!!!1

[Letterman]

yay! this is where I fit...

Well I never got a chance to run the trail back when after the granit bowl it went back down to loon and you could drive along the beach right near the watter on the far side of Loon lake, now right after the bowl the trail takes a hard left and goes back up on the hills away from the lake.

[Jes]

Well I never got a chance to run the trail back when after the granit bowl it went back down to loon and you could drive along the beach right near the watter on the far side of Loon lake, now right after the bowl the trail takes a hard left and goes back up on the hills away from the lake.

You didn't miss much.
Wet and mosquitoey in the Spring and dusty as hell in the Summer and Fall.

[Jes]

Don't direct crap at me.

What "crap"?
The only crap I see in this thread are your posts.

[XJ_ranger]

Well I never got a chance to run the trail back when after the granit bowl it went back down to loon and you could drive along the beach right near the watter on the far side of Loon lake, now right after the bowl the trail takes a hard left and goes back up on the hills away from the lake.

well - i guess all this did is make my next summer goal easier right?

Goal for summer: Run the Rubicon, Run the Fordyce, dont put junk on jackstands for more than 2 days.

[BrettM]

I've run the Rubicon a handfull of time over the last 2 years, a couple times in 1 day. I've web and video wheeled it hundreds of times before that. :laugh3:

Don't direct crap at me. I haven't wheeled the Rubicon or anything as much as you Jes, I don't think anyone here has, but I do enjoy any amount of time that I can wheel, especially the Rubicon, Fordyce etc that are world class trails.

I'm as pissed off about the GK situation as anyone here. We all start somewhere. I'll try to make cleanup days in the future.

What can we do to stop other parts of the trail beyond blown up? I know I heard about Little Sluice as well and am very surprised that it hasn't been blasted already. Hopefully it will not be blasted. It just sucks that a part of the trail that everyone will be challenged by or at least go through is now gone. Don't get me wrong, losing the Little Sluice would suck, but not everyone or even most people even attempt this part.
Troy, I'm going to give you an assignment, and then let's see if you can do it.

Your assignment is to make posts without asking questions. Do you think you can do that? It's bad enough reading past some of your sideways, off topic comments. Don't make it so that a response is expected every time you post.......it's horribly annoying.

If you're really that curious, read more rather than talking more.

[Capt. Nemo]

Wentworth would be challenging in a full-width rig. The trail gets fairly narrow and there's lots of vegitation on the way up that nips at the tires of a stock width rig with reasonable rims and tires...

[Goatman]

There are legitimate reasons why this was done. We might (and do) disagree with why, but spouting off about it here will accomplish nothing. If you really want to know why it was done, or what you can do to prevent other disagreeable actions on the Rubicon, it is senseless to ask a bunch of questions here. A link was posted to the Rubicon forum on POR that has many of the answers, if you're really interested, go read about it. If you don't belong to Blue Ribbon, or don't participate somehow in trail maintenance and cleanup, or attend meetings to express your views, or write letters or e-mails to the decision makers......you have little room to bitch about it here.

You want answers, go find them. That's what the rest of us did. If you're too lazy to find out for yourself, don't expect us to explain it to you. If you want to bitch, then bitch, get it off your chest, but then go do something about it.

[Bryan C.]

I had heard so many tales and seen many photos of Gatekeeper before I had ever been to the Rubicon, so the first time I ran the trail I was a little freeked out about it. When my group of 3 rigs went in on a Friday at 11am there was 10-20 people watching as we pulled up to it, and I was feeling the eyes on me as I drove over it. We passed right over it and then drove on till we were out of view of the spectators, and stopped for a quick break. I ended up stopping on top of the pinch rock at the Aligator pit that is now gone, still feeling the rush I had to get out for a second and clam down after my first time going over gatekeeper. This was my first time on the trail and the Gatekeeper was a great "welcome to the Rubicon."

I am so upset that this part of the trail is no longer the same, and feel sorry for anyone that did not get a chance to drive it as it was.

I was reading this post again and it got me thinking of my first time running gatekeeper. My first time over the rubicon was last year at the NAXJA XJ fest. I had to split up from the group and drive into Sacramento with Keven Patty to replace my rear brake line that I broke on Fordyce 2 days earlier. I got lost trying to find it, and when I made it past I was pretty pumped up. Nobody was around to see it, but I made it past The Gatekeeper.

Richard is right! Bitching now won't do any good. Less talk and more action is the only way to help.

[BrettM]

I heard about the Little Sluice being blown up, but nothing about the Gate Keeper. When and where did anyone know about this? If there was fair warning I'm sure there would be quite a few people guarding it and refusing to have it blown up. I really doubt that our letters are being read, let alone being taken seriously. The 4 wheeling community is huge here in Cali and Western Nevada. It's easily a multi million $ industry, maybe 100's of millions...maybe more.

What can we do to protect our trail?

Many people such as Jes and others have participated in trail clean ups and donated their time to go to meetings regarding the trails we love. How much $$$ do we need to fight and make a difference? How much $ is being put up to close our trails? Does RE, Central 4 Wheel, and other local 4x4 shops donate $ to fund the fight to keep our trails open? I have heard of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which I don't know a lot about.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm getting sick of being pushed around by people who misunderstand us and regard us 4x4 enthusiasts as little more than an inconvience and detroyers of the environment. There are a few out there that do not clean up after themselves and force others to go the extra mile to clean up after them on the trails. This is the tip of the ice berge in regards to the negative attention the Rubicon trail has seen with the crap problem, the closure of Spider Lake camping, and now the dynamiting of Gate Keeper...also the impending doom of closing El Dorado trails/fire roads/etc for 1/2 the year or so.

This situation looks like it could get ugly with the average 4x4 enthusiast spending thousands of $'s into their rigs, the multi million or more local 4x4 market, and the environmentalist's or whoever's determination to close our beloved trails. I've only live in Cali for close to 5 years now, does this thing happen every so often, or is it worse than it's ever been? I'd think this is unpresidented. We have much more power than might think, we just need a strong focused effort led by our many 4x4 clubs, 4x4 companies donating xxx of $'s and/or printing articles in their catalogs and in 4x4 magazines highlighting the problem for the nation to see. There are many people who live elsewhere, but could give lots of support in regards to saving the Rubicon. Many people, myself included, have waited years to someday be able to wheel the Rubicon. We might have also thought that our children should someday have the same right and privelege. What can be done???

Why weren't we notified of the plans to dynamite GK? People have seen how fast we have come together to clean up the crap from the Con and how we have maintained other trails in the area. Why couldn't we be asked for our input and how to rectify an apparent problem? We could have easily filled the huge ruts in the area with small rocks or came up with other means if called upon. How can we put pressure on the powers that be and get an answer and accountability for what happened? Who gave the order? Were we somehow notified, but weren't aware of it? I highly doubt this as well because we have so many eyes and ears in the area letting others know of potentional threats and imminent doom. We normally catch wind of what is being proposed and when we need to be in attendence to voice our concerns and try to influence the people who call the shots.
Troy, I'm going to give you an assignment, and then let's see if you can do it.

Your assignment is to make posts without asking questions. Do you think you can do that? It's bad enough reading past some of your sideways, off topic comments. Don't make it so that a response is expected every time you post.......it's horribly annoying.

If you're really that curious, read more rather than talking more.

Read it! Embrace it!

[lugie]

Read it! Embrace it!

I don't know the story, don't want to know, and I certainly won't ask...but Brett's posts are making me laugh.

[Big Red]

Read it! Embrace it!

You've picked a bad time to try and silence me Brett. Your posts are becoming lame with your attempts. This is not the time to be quiet and sit on the sidelines.

[BrettM]

You've picked a bad time to try and silence me Brett. Your posts are becoming lame with your attempts. This is not the time to be quiet and sit on the sidelines.
:rolleyes:

you posting over and over about it is sitting on the sidelines

and congratulations, you finally posted one response meeting Goatman's challenge; without asking stupid questions that could be easily answered if you opened your eyes and read a little.

[CRASH]

I've run the Rubicon a handfull of time over the last 2 years, a couple times in 1 day. I've web and video wheeled it hundreds of times before that. :laugh3:

Don't direct crap at me. I haven't wheeled the Rubicon or anything as much as you Jes, I don't think anyone here has, but I do enjoy any amount of time that I can wheel, especially the Rubicon, Fordyce etc that are world class trails.

I'm as pissed off about the GK situation as anyone here. We all start somewhere. I'll try to make cleanup days in the future.

What can we do to stop other parts of the trail beyond blown up? I know I heard about Little Sluice as well and am very surprised that it hasn't been blasted already. Hopefully it will not be blasted. It just sucks that a part of the trail that everyone will be challenged by or at least go through is now gone. Don't get me wrong, losing the Little Sluice would suck, but not everyone or even most people even attempt this part.

Write a letter, join FOTR, send money to Blue Ribbon coalition, attend meetings to make your views known.

[Simple Man]

I guess I should apologize for not keeping up to date on what's been happening here on this board. I've been a little pre-ocupied on the Pirate Board.

Let me start by saying that there is no way to make everybody happy. That is the nature of compromise. There have been lots of questions about what has happened, most have been answered on the Pirate Board.

The ROC voted to destroy three boulders at the Gatekeeper. In the end five boulders were destroyed. Destroying the boulders was not a perfect solution but it was a solution. I am very upset that two extra boulders farther down the trail from Gatekeeper were destroyed.


Why were five rocks in the Gatekeeper downsized?

Traffic - The wait was becoming frustrating for everyone. Traffic was backing up on a regular basis. The delays from the slow going at Gatekeeper were causing road rage.

People were creating bypasses and driving through private property. By eliminating a few rocks, traffic should flow more freely. This is not something that will be applied to the entire trail. Gatekeeper is at the beginning of the trail and sees unusually long delays on the weekends. Farther in along the trail, traffic naturally spreads out and the delays are less frequent.

Erosion - There is a natural spring at Gatekeeper. We can't direct the water away. The large rocks were an obstacle that promoted the spinning of tires in the wet or loose dirt. This erosion was unacceptable. Concrete was applied (twice) but unsuccessful.

Harder - Over the last few years, the erosion has exposed more and more of the boulders at Gatekeeper. This obsticle has become harder and harder. More spinning of tires and new lines or approaches to the obstilce caused further erosion.

Because it is harder, more people have been breaking down in the Gatekeeper. This leads to more traffic delays, which leads to illegal bypasses, which leads to more erosion, which will lead to closing the entire trail.

The NEW line - The new line at Gatekeeper became wide right. This was because it was becoming harder and harder to take the obsticle straight on. By driving father right then turning hard left, you got a straighter shot over/between the two big boulders. The problem was the erosion of the hillside. You could measure this erosion in feet not inches.

The Gatekeeper had also become a spectator spot. Guys were trying to show off for the crowd. The bushes were getting trashed and the litter was increasing. The trail grew wider and wider in the area.


How should the trail be maintained?

There is an ongoing discussion as what level the trail should be maintained. Should it be maintained for a 100" vehicle running 31" tires or a 110" vehicle running 39" tires? Once determined, the goal would be to maintain erosion to the point where that rig could get through with a competent driver. A less equipped rig would have a harder time. A better equipped rig would have less of a problem. No specific type of rig would be excluded.


Why was there no prior notice on the Pirate board or the FOTR e-mail list?
The decision had been made by the county. The county asked everyone present at the November ROC meeting to keep it quiet. Safety was the reason given.

Users have posted that the users present should have protested the blasting and made the fact public. I can only speak for my self. Although blasting was not a prefect solution, it solved the problems listed above. I didn’t have a huge problem with it. I am very upset about the two extra boulders that had nothing to do with the problems discussed.

Bottom line, the county has no duty to get ROC approval.


Why was Gatekeeper addressed before the Little Sluice?

The Gatekeeper was a smaller project. It was almost a test for what could take place in the Little Sluice. The County failed that test! The Little Sluice has a legal bypass, the Gatekeeper does not.


What is the plan for the Little Sluice?

To make a long story short, any illegally placed boulder in the Little Sluice will be removed. They will be blasted and/or split and carried further up the sluice to fill in where rocks have been slowly pushed down the sluice for years.

The date for this has not been set. The county plans to secure the rocks on the cliff face around the time the rocks are dealt with.


Again, there is no way to make everyone happy.

One of the things that came from this mess is the need for better communications. The ROC meetings are open to the public. The minutes and agendas are posted on the El Dorado website.

I make it to most of the ROC meetings and on occasion post up about things. The FOTR e-mail list is probably the best place to keep informed on what is happening with the Rubicon.

We need to find people with some free time that can make all of these meetings. There is talk about having quarterly meetings about the Rubicon in places like the bay area, Sac, Redding, Reno/Tahoe, Modesto, etc. I'm going to have to slow down. It takes too much time and fuel costs for me to drive over from Reno to make these meetings.

I'll try and answer any other questions you guys might have.

[Simple Man]

I've got a new e-mail address.

Feel free to contact me about Rubicon issues.

dougbarr@charter.net




.

[CRASH]

Thanks for summarizing Doug.

The ROC is not perfect, but it's what we have, and they are generally pretty effective in persuading the county on issues. We should continue to support them, but offer our criticisms as well.

I thank you for your service.

Andy

[Phil]

Thanks for clearing that up, Doug.

Hopefully the problem stays solved there. It would be a shame to blow up Gatekeeper, and then have to go in and perform further actions because the problems continued.

[Jes]

I think it will just increase traffic on the trail causing more problems in the long run. I seem to remember traffic counts last year and "use limits" in the RTMP.
Expect to see more trash and more POS junkers broken on the trail next year. Unfortunate, because this year there was a lot less garbage laying around than years past.
On the bright side, the locals now have a place to go dump their old refrigerators and the Jeep Jamboree can get more rigs through per hour so they can make more money.

[Simple Man]

Jes,

Traffic has been down since the first Spider closure. It won't be back to "normal" for more than five years. So traffic will increase from last years use as it returns to normal and as new people come in to the sport.

The work at Gatekeeper might encourage more people to try the trail with less equiped rigs. The kiosk will be staffed most weekends next summer. We will try and educate those passing by about what lies ahead.

Again I bring up the idea of maintaining the trail to a certian level. What level would you propose?

There have been talk of limiting vehicles to 250 per day. I am very much opposed to this. I alone can not stop limits and capacities. Every user that is opposed to limits should e-mail El Dodaro county at RubiconTrail@co.el-dorado.ca.us and let them know.

I would have hoped for a more positive attitude from you but I do understand your doubts. As crazy as this sounds, the Gatekeeper was worked on to keep the trail open. SMUD, Fish & Game or the FS could have filed suit againt the county to close the trail for erosion and sedimentation run-off.

If you don't think that could happen, I'll refer you to 2000 and the Tahoe side of the trail. The Lahonton Water Authority ordered the county to close the trail. No talks, no negotiations, closed.

FOTR was formed and by working with the county, FS and Lahonton, a solution was found and implemented.

I won't deny that JJ has an interst in the trail. But they want it kept open and healthy just as much as anyone else. Last year they made hundreds of trips through the gatekeeper. Each one probably got harder, causing more erosion, which made it harder, which cause more erosion......




.

[Goatman]

Doug, thank you for having the commitment and energy to do a somewhat thankless job. I know it hads to be tough at times hearing all of the opnions and frustration, but people have to get it out. Hopefully, along with this, comes a motivation for more action and involvement from individuals.


Now, indulge me for a moment.

While we're on the subject, I'll take the liberty to voice a couple of my main personal gripes about how FS and BLM handle trail maintainance. The first is errosion control. I know this is nearly impossible to argue with them, but we need to keep making this point. Their whole errosion argument and standards are ludacris, and silly. Much of the beautiful landscape we enjoy in both our mountains and desert was created by errosion. One huge storm, or one extremely wet season can do considerably more change (damage, from their view) than many, many seasons of offroad use. I've yet to hear them say a good explanation of why natural errosion is OK but man enhanced errosion is a huge no no. Now, I undestand that there will always be particular areas where it is the right thing to do to minimize and control errosion from vehicle use, but their whole philosophy of any errosion being bad is stupid. While we need to cooporate with them, we should still resist this dumb standard that they adhere to.

The other big gripe I have is there "alternate route" standard. How, with any intelligent reasoning, can a section of trail that is 80 ft wide be more damaging than a section of trail that is 40 ft wide (just arbitrary figures)? With a single route going through tens of thousands of acres, how can it ever be justified that only one route is OK, but if there are sections with multiple routes that is bad? What f'n difference does it make if, through thousands of acres, there is a 30 ft wide trail or a 60 ft wide trail? It makes absolutely no difference to the ecology of the entire area. So, the only logical reason to not allow multiple routes in some areas is because of resourse damage, or purely for aesthetic reasons. The minimal resource damage is a silly argument, since we're talking about a few plants, which FS themselves put little value in, easily mowing down shrubery for their own projects and for fire preventive actions. The other is for aesthetics, which I can see, to a point. I don't like trees getting messed up, since it's nice to have them along the trail, but it's not a huge deal. However, aesthetics is not dramatically affected by a few multiple routes on some areas, and we like the extra opportunities that multiple routes provide. The FS shouldn't worry about how it looks to hikers, since it's not a hiking trail, it's a 4x4 route!! There are tons of hiking trails around, let us have our very limited number of 4x4 routes....without having to please the eye of potential hikers.

I'm not for tearing things up on the trail, and I like it to look nice, but for heaven's sake let's at least resist the silly standards that government uses to manage our 4x4 routes.

[Big Red]

Doug you're awesome. Thanks so much for laying out what has happened and what is being planned in the future as well as who to contact. It sucks, but it doesn't make sence to cry about stuff that is already in the past. The people that did the blasting and decided by themselves to blast 2 more boulders in the Alligator Pit need to be held accountable and be fined, lose their jobs, be suspended something. We cannot let them get away with this. By making a firm stand now, we will have a huge impact on how the Little Sluice situation is handled and how much blasting will go on. Can the blasting be better documented as to what exactly the blasting will consist of, what the area looked like before and after etc? This will make it harder for these people to start blasting and being vague as to what exactly they are doing. I know that there is a huge safety concern with blowing up dynamite, but maybe we can have people (4x4 people who use the trail) view the area before and then view it again right after the action is taken. People miraculasly do better work when you are there to watch them. The same people take short cuts and do what they want (do a 1/2 hearted job) when you don't watch them and they take it upon themselves to do what they want within their broad parameters.

Thanks again Doug for the update and the info. You mean so much to us here and we appreciate it. :wave:

Troy

[Simple Man]

Goatman,

As you read this remember I'm trying to explain the FS and County decisions and actions. That doen't mean that I agree with them.

The Rubicon and Ellis Creek Trails are a 50 wide easement through the national forest. Within that 50 easement there is supposed to be a 10 foot (?) wide Jeep trail.


Erosion - This is a tool the FS uses to mess with and control OHV activities within the forest. They can speak up about erosion within the county right of way because the water runs out of the right of way and in to the forest.

The FS is extremely serious about erosion. I you haven't read the Notice of Intent, go get a copy. The ENF has proposed to close every dirt road within the ENF from Nov 1st through May 1, due to POSSIBLE erosion.

They have also refused to look at the 700 plus miles of non-system roads for possible inclution as future system roads. That means 700 miles of trail within the ENF will be closed to wheeled motor vehicles.

E-mail Tony Scardina, ascardina@fs.fed.us if you have a problem with this.


"alternate route" standard - "How, with any intelligent reasoning, can a section of trail that is 80 ft wide be more damaging than a section of trail that is 40 ft wide (just arbitrary figures)?"

Their argument is more exposed dirt with a little rain means more sedimentation running off in to the water system. They are very serious about this and use it as a tool against OHV use.

We have tried to argue that if there is a specific trail that has erosion potential, let the users know and we will go fix it. But the FS has put a blanket closure over the whole forest.

There is a meeting December 14th in Placerville at 7pm regarding this very issue.





.

[Jes]

I would have hoped for a more positive attitude from you but I do understand your doubts.



I have lost all positive attitude towards the situation.
The ENF has shown that they will not listen to us and will do things their own way weather we like it or not. All I see is a sinking ship.
I'll continue to do my part as I always have but I think it's a lost cause.

[Big Red]

I have lost all positive attitude towards the situation.
The ENF has shown that they will not listen to us and will do things their own way weather we like it or not. All I see is a sinking ship.
I'll continue to do my part as I always have but I think it's a lost cause.

I know you are frustrated and have puts lots of time in especially communting from SF. Don't give up. We has thousands of people on our side and lots of resources....we just need to focus them and unite. Is the ENF responding to complaints from environmentalists or are they having biased, uneducated people assessing the trail and then making their own mind up without hearing us and doing what they want? Everyone is accountable to someone else. Who are the people making the decisions accountable to us the people? Why then can they get away with what they do if we have 1000's of people and millions of $$$ in a local industry that relies very heavily on the Rubicon? Heck Chrysler named the "ultimate 4x4 vehicle" the Rubicon in honor of the Rubicon trail and what it represents. We can not get frustrated and give up, that's what ENF and the people responsible for trail closures want. We have to properly define our enemy and form our own focused agenda with our many resources. At the same time we have to remain peaceable and go through the system. If the system is flawed where ENF will not listen to the people that they are supposed to listed to...we need to change the system or the people in charge to people that will work with us the people. Since some of the trail is on private land, can we buy this land to preserve it from the private owner of it? We can not, and will not, let our trails be closed and be content with OHV off-road parks to pacify us. We want to be able to enjoy the beauty of this state and enjoy our sport. This America after all isn't it???

What we need to ask ourselves is if we should unite the 4x4 community which again very large and multi million $ industry through our websites and keep this more underground within our community? (OR) Should we protest and get local, state, national attention? Will this attention be more counter productive where the average person might have a biased feeling about us already? I don't know, but again if we are not getting hear by the people that should be listening to us and representing us...we need to do something about it by either removing them from office (long term) or in the (short term) going around them or finding other avenues of attack. Maybe peaceful protesting and/or guarding a site on the trail that is to be demolished is the way we need to handle this. That's the way it was done in the 60's etc by people making a stand and refusing to just go away. Look at other countries especially Asian countries...the college students are said to be the conscience of the country. They many times have paid with fines, jail time, being killed etc but over time you do get your message across. I'm not advicating this extreme measure, but peaceful protesting, sit ins, and putting more pressure on the people in charge has to be explored.

O.k. now I need to get back to work at work. :laugh3:

Troy

[Letterman]

I have lost all positive attitude towards the situation.
The ENF has shown that they will not listen to us and will do things their own way weather we like it or not. All I see is a sinking ship.
I'll continue to do my part as I always have but I think it's a lost cause.

Frustrated?



Same here, but I am still fighting, and I am trying to get some faith back in the ones that I thought were on our side, as I really feel blindsided by this.



I think what is more frustrating is reading BigRed's ignorant and unintelligent posts, where he keeps spouting out the same generic crap and asking too many brainless questions.



Doug thanks for posting.
Emails sent.

[Simple Man]

John Berry, the current ENF Supervisor, is the man making the decisions. He is doing so without getting input for the users. The "Final Rule", another FS document, requires that he gets public input.

John Berry is retiring as Forest Supervisor as of Jan 1st. Who knows if the next guy is going to be better or worse.

By law FS has to acknowlege every single piece of public input. They have no obligation to follow those suggestions.

Of the 721 miles of non-system roads in the ENF, only 14 are being considered for system status. Those roads are being considered because the public wrote in and asked that they be included. Letters do work. If you have a section of road that you think should be included write Tony.

ascardina@fs.fed.us

There are private properties out there. There are already legal easements through these properties. The Rubicon Trail Foundation is looking in to the possibility of purchasing property in the Rubicon Trail area.



.

[basalt51]

This is sickening and frightening. Thanks to all for everything you are doing, and we're all going to have to start acting or everything we've been fearing for 20 years is going to happen.