Subframe sleeving or T&J stiffners??? What do you suggest to beef up the unibody?

[Big Red]

Subframe sleeving or T&J stiffners??? I'm running 37's and want to strength my unibody as well as I can. I'm going to be putting in a D&C internal roll cage and I have rock sliders already. Do you guys suggest sleeving the subframe or will T&J stiffners work good to strength up my unibody with the big tires and wheeling it? If you said to sleeve the frame rail with what thickness of metal and what welder etc. I know the subframe rails are not much more than thicker sheet metal so does sleeving them help that much if you add thick metal to flimsy stuff? Also I hear that welding to the unibody is not suggested as it can weaken it and is hard because it is so thin. Please advise. I'm closing out the mods on my XJ and this is an important 1 along with the roll cage for safety and the longivity of the body.

[IntrepidXJ]

I like the T&T setup

[Big Red]

I like the T&T setup

Is it a weld on or just bolt onto your rear spring hanger and front lower control arm bracket? I have seen 1 like this and it looks easy to install. Just lossen up the bolt and slide it on and bolt back up.

I see you viewing this thread Crash. I know you have good ideas and your XJ is awesome in how the roll cage, sliders, roof rack etc tie together. Can you help me out?

[xj-grin]

I have the TnT setup. I think it stiffens as well as the T&J, and it has the added benefit of acting as a 1/4 inch skid for the fragile quasi-rails... So in my opinion, plate it.

edit: to answer your second question, the TnT is a weld in. It is essentially a 1/4 inch plate molded to fit precisely to the frame rails, then stich welded in, and gusseted to the rear spring hangers...

[IntrepidXJ]

actually, I believe the T&T is 3/16".....at least mine were

[xj-grin]

actually, I believe the T&T is 3/16".....at least mine were

I think you're right about that...

[GSequoia]

TNT is 3/16" and stitch welded; I have a set sitting here ;)

Personally when I install it I'm gonna throw some plug welds in as well; overkill never hurt anybody.

I don't know anything about the T&J setup so I can't say anything there.

Based on the fact that you are asking this question I would point you towared TNT or T&J stiffiners as they are ready to go right away. If you don't weld have somebody do it for you. You don't want to blow holes in the "frame."

[DaffyXJ]

I plated my rails with 1/8th x 3 inch. Spot welding every 8 to 10 inches and seam (actually stitch) welding the edges. Plated the face and bottom. 1/8th was easy enough to mold to the contours and when seam welded together along with the spots very strong. I think the frame will fail above the plating at the seams for the body before the actual frame rails.
I then added foot plates for the cage floor plates to the 1/8th inch plate and tied it in to the rear spring hanger as well.
How long will it last? Don't know, I wheel it hard. When it goes, guess I'll do a body swap. :laugh3:
Took 2 weekends and cost 38 bucks for a stick of 1/8th. gotta count the gas and wire I guess too.

Derik

[IntrepidXJ]

TNT is 3/16" and stitch welded; I have a set sitting here ;)

Personally when I install it I'm gonna throw some plug welds in as well; overkill never hurt anybody.


that's what i did

http://pictures.myxj.net/phase3_10-4-05/DSC04884.JPG

[xj4life]

that's what i did

http://pictures.myxj.net/phase3_10-4-05/DSC04884.JPG

why buy those instead of just angle iron? the t&T's site is down right now. do they wrap around? looks like they contour the frame rails pretty good.

[IntrepidXJ]

why buy those instead of just angle iron? the t&T's site is down right now. do they wrap around? looks like they contour the frame rails pretty good.

i was originally going to just use angle, but the price on these wasn't too terrible and they do match the contour of the rails pretty nicely. plus i picked them up while i was in CO, so no shipping involved.

[Big Red]

Thanks guys for the feedback, keep it coming, I'm sure this is on the mind of alot of people especially us with 35"+ tires and aggressive wheeling styles.

I wasn't aware of TNT just T&J. Is TNT dynooomite? :laugh3: :explosion
I know that people plate their sub frame, but how advisable is it to weld onto the sub frame and how strong is your frame/body going to be where the plating stops? I think making spot welds every so often would be o.k. if you are careful like in the the 2 aftermarket kits. I think I'm going to get the TNT or T&J kit and when try to tie my interior roll cage in some how. Does anyone have the links for TNT and T&J?

Come on Crash, post up what you have done. Your setup is awesome, I've seen it 1st hand.

I forgot to add the feature to state who voted which way, can you guys state how you voted and why?

[TJ_Shunk]

I have the T&T Customs frame stiffeners on the wifes XJ and they are great. T&T's work is amazing, strong, and they wrap around the uniframe. There was an increase in the way the XJ felt with steering and how if felt on the road to. Just my .02 Their website is under construction but here is the link. http://www.tntcustoms.com/webV3/default.asp I have there HD skid/crossmember and Rock Rails on the wifes XJ as well. It is great stuff. Give Bob a call or e-mail. He is also on here as Rock Yacht, send him a PM if you want.

-Matt

[Big Red]

Thanks, I saw their T&T's site is under construction, at least the XJ stiffener link is. Is it bolt on or do you have to weld? I would like to be able to bolt it on and weld later as needed/wanted. Here are the T&J products their stage 1 and stage 2 kits:

Stage 1:
http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp-xj-chassiskit.htm

Stage 2 with slider:
http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp-xj-stage2chassiskit.htm

Does anyone know if the T&J kit is bolt on, the stage 1 at least with the stage 2 being welded (sliders).

[IntrepidXJ]

Thanks, I saw their T&T's site is under construction, at least the XJ stiffener link is. Is it bolt on or do you have to weld? I would like to be able to bolt it on and weld later as needed/wanted. Here are the T&J products their stage 1 and stage 2 kits:

TNT is weld on

[jrsxj98]

TnT are weld on, and are contoured to match the frame rail. nice units, Have a set waiting to go on the XJ also.

[Detour]

Heres another option... http://www.detoursusa.com/xjrokslyders.php

Available in both bolt/weld on.
Theres no problems welding to the unibody, unless your welder cant weld.....
.....people have been welding on unibodies since the 70's...

[Big Red]

Heres another option... http://www.detoursusa.com/xjrokslyders.php

Available in both bolt/weld on.
Theres no problems welding to the unibody, unless your welder cant weld.....
.....people have been welding on unibodies since the 70's...

Looks good. I saw these and was thinking about them. I already have JKS knockoffs welded to my sub frame so can I cut notches in your sub frame stiffeners to fit around the 2 feet to the sub frame? My brother-in-law will probably get your complete slider and stiffener kit. Is shipping a lot to Sacramento, CA (Citrus Heights) 95610?

Troy

[Detour]

Hmmm, well......most do the reverse, remove those knockoffs, reduce thier
out riggers by 1.5", install the stiffner, weld out riggers to stiffner....gusset
if required, Im not familiar with knockoffs....but if you notch the stiffner, as
you suggest....you'd be defeating thier purpose, as with any other product
out there...

Email me if you'd like additional pics or info to include shipping. (which isnt alot)
Address is on the site..

[Gil BullyKatz]

The TnT's are not channel shaped...

My info is that they are L shaped...

Which if you're beefing up the unibody is fine... Great even.

But if you're planning on mounting longarms, radius arms, 3 links, etc.

You may want to go with channel shaped steel...

Somebody on the board used box steel and split it in half...

I unfortunately don't remember the size of box steel needed or the dimensions of the "C" needed...

Bueller?

Bueller?





















Bueller?

[TJ_Shunk]

The TnT's are not channel shaped...

My info is that they are L shaped...




You are right. I stand corrected. I just went and looked at the set on the wifes XJ and they are L shaped.

-Matt

[IntrepidXJ]

kinda L shaped :laugh3:

http://pictures.myxj.net/TNTstiffeners/DSC04351.JPG

if you build the arms into a crossmember, angle will be fine as they will be tied together.

[pair8hd]

Wow, I didn't know the TnT stiffeners where L shape. Glad I didn't get them because I would have been dissapointed.

I made mine out of 3x6 tubing and split it down the middle with a plasma cutter.
It stiffened up my roofless XJ allot and made a soild foundation to tie my cage into. I also tied the rails into my drop brackets, sliders and front and rear leaf spring mounts. Lots of carefull stitch and rossett welding with the mig.

http://fototime.com/7F5D781F96F70FA/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/797FA7DB19E2A54/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/88E5DA2E6EC8271/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/E72190B5103C3C4/standard.jpg

[cracker]

Come on Crash, post up what you have done.

I would be willing to bet Crash is out at JV where YOU should be! :laugh3:

[Roxtar]

If you're going to be installing a cage you'll want to anchor it to the sub frame, right?
If you don't sleeve the frame rails (whether using channel, angle or the TNT setup) you have no way to effectively do this.
IOW the T&J, or others like it, won't do what you want.

[CRASH]

I would be willing to bet Crash is out at JV where YOU should be! :laugh3:


That's where I SHOULD be, but I'm on the baby watch!

Weather is perfect down there right now! No snow!

[Big Red]

That's where I SHOULD be, but I'm on the baby watch!

Weather is perfect down there right now! No snow!

Thanks for commenting on this thread about JV, but can you please share your vast experience on beefing the unibody please. I knew you were not making JV and were lurking around here.

[CRASH]

You can bolt on as much stuff as you like, it will still crack at:

a) rear bumper mount bolts;
b) gas tank filler relief hole;
c) front leaf spring mount;
d) top corners of the hatch;
e) 1/3 to 1/2 way up the A-pillar;
f) A-pillar to firewall/fender support transition;
g) front crossmember to frame junction, next to the radiator.

There is only one way to fix these items. A fully integrated cage that is tied to 8-10 points along the entire length of the chassis. My 8 point cage stiffened and fixed all problems behind the A-pillar, which concentratedteh stresses forward of the firewall. I'm taking the rig down after Christmas to finish the cage from the firewall forward, as well as add provisions for the little grunion's Recaro seat. He'll be sitting on 1" .120" tube tied directly to the triangulation members behind the driver's seat.

You can see pics of what Jes and I did on the "Cagey Happenings" thread, or Jes's buildup thread. Tons of both our cages, as well as other frame stiffening stuff here:

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={0641A5A9-DB40-46BE-9569-B61D5BC8B151}&albumid={B3D02FCC-E1FD-4BE3-B066-A64F50E00DDF}

[jonboy]

If you're going to be installing a cage you'll want to anchor it to the sub frame, right?
If you don't sleeve the frame rails (whether using channel, angle or the TNT setup) you have no way to effectively do this.
IOW the T&J, or others like it, won't do what you want.guess again...
T&J stiffeners weld to the uni-frame and also bolt on at the spring hanger and LCA mount. I think the guys at T&J tie their jeepspeed rigs' cages into the stiffeners.

B4 you do any of these, you need to think about how they will either work with or interfere with your other stuff like rock sliders, long arms, skids, cage, etc. I've been up close and personal with the T&J's on their race XJ's. They look like they are probably the most effective stiffeners, but I won't buy em because they will cause hassles with my rocker skids and drop bracket braces and will be in the way if I choose to cut the LCA mounts off for a long arm swap.

[magoo117]

It looks like the T&J ones wont work with long arms.

[Detour]

JP Magazine did a hack & weld write up about a year ago modifying T&J's
inorder to work with a LA kit.......looked pretty counter productive.

Stiffy systems can mess with alot of LA kits, some brands wont fit at all,
some require some mods and yet others (such as Claytons) will go in as
intended. Detours has changed it's front lower control arm connection inorder
to work with a few LA kits, T&J has'nt addressed this area at all as far as I
know....even running plate or angle iron interferes with alot of kits, Full
Traction comes to mind the last time I looked.

As with anything, its best to map out your build, figuring out what works
with what, sooner or later....after some abuse, this will be an area you'll
want to address if you wheel the rock.

[magoo117]

JP Magazine did a hack & weld write up about a year ago modifying T&J's
inorder to work with a LA kit.......looked pretty counter productive.

Stiffy systems can mess with alot of LA kits, some brands wont fit at all,
some require some mods and yet others (such as Claytons) will go in as
intended. Detours has changed it's front lower control arm connection inorder
to work with a few LA kits, T&J has'nt addressed this area at all as far as I
know....even running plate or angle iron interferes with alot of kits, Full
Traction comes to mind the last time I looked.

As with anything, its best to map out your build, figuring out what works
with what, sooner or later....after some abuse, this will be an area you'll
want to address if you wheel the rock.
Do you know the website for Stiffy systems?

[Detour]

Hmmm, my bad......thats slang for referance to Unibody Stiffening System.

Theres referance to sites within this thread...and others....