How to remove a winshield...?

[BrettM]

My windshield is getting worse and worse (cracks) and I need to replace it. The Pick N Pull has several XJs with good windsheilds, and I was trying to pull one and was having trouble. I got the metal thingy around the edge off fine, but the silicone or adhesive or whatever it is they use is REALLY on there. Any tips?

[whoozey1953]

Take a friend and some welding rod or a coat hanger. Work the rod into the goo so it comes out inside, and have you and the buddy grab the ends and pull it around the entire perimeter of the 'shield. then both of you get in the seats and GENTLY push on the glass with your Air Jordan's until it is freed up.

[w_howey]

There is a "tool" out there for doing it. It looks like two t-handles with a long strand of wire in between. You put the wire thru a hole created in the "goo" with a coat hangar. Pull this wire around the entire windshield, and out it comes. I have a suction cup I attach to the windshield on the outside to give me a hand hold while removing it.

[Matthew Currie]

Your luck may depend on the quality of the goo, and whether it is factory original or not. Eagle and I took out a windshield one hot day, and it was NOT FUN! The wire kept breaking, so we finally went at it with hacksaw blades ground to an edge. That worked pretty well, but it was slow and difficult. That thing was very well stuck in there! If you use wire, make sure you have plenty of it.

It's pretty difficult to capture one alive. Be prepared to work very slowly, and very gently. One false move or impatient push and it cracks.

[MJR]

I don't think it's worth the hassle to try to take an old windshield out.

[mdwatkins]

First of all the tool you're asking about is called a wire saw and is pretty much a specialist tool that you can't pick up at any hardware store. I have bought them from matco, snap on, mac etc, but their quality is poor as they're better at making mechanics tools, and a windshield is something a mechanic shouldn't be mucking with...they should leave it to guys like me that have the training and certification to do so.

Second...a windshield is something that you should not be messing with. An improperly installed windshield can kill you, your family and anyone near the vehicle if you're involved in an
accident.

Third the black goo you're talking about is Butyl and is illegal in many places to use as windshield retention device. The only places that it is used anymore is in large semi's where the windshield isn't an integral part of the frame. Just because some of the local auto stores sell a windshield installation kit does not mean that it is legal to use...check your laws...and if you use butyl stay away from me and my family because your vehicle is a death trap...especially if you're offroad with it.

A properly installed windshield will be installed with a urethane system. This systems generally consists of a number of different primers, activators and the urethane. If one of these is missing it can cause the windshield to release, which is not a pretty sight (trust me I've seen the aftermath). The urethane used in windshields is extremly tough...it's like a giant rubber band on steroids that sticks to the glass and pinchweld like a M.F.

It is worth the money to get a good quality windshield and have it installed by a certified installer at a reputable shop. Don't go with the cheapest guy out there either...I can guarantee that he's skipping steps somewhere, which in the end will compromise YOUR SAFETY. If he's claiming to use OEM glass and is fairly cheaper than the other shops out there, he's cutting corners somewhere....he has to be or else he's not making any money, and is someone you should not trust your XJ with.

I recommend that you spend the money on an OEM windshield...they are properly designed, fit better and are a safer piece of glass. Aftermarket glass manufactures only adhear to the sheer basic of federal saftey standards, which just aren't enough for the vehicles on the road today. (trust me I have some horror stories when it comes to aftermarket glass) OEM glass will meet the vehicle manufactures standards which are higher than that of the government. Why is this? becuase safety is generally what sells a car...the safer it is generally the better it sells.

Just my $0.02, but when it comes to a windshield what you don't know can kill you. Also a boneyard windshield is generally trashed so badly, and is usually so contaminated that you can't get a good bond to it with the new urethane. This is such a problem and is dangerous enough to the customer that we refuse to install any boneyard windshields.

Hope I at least get you think twice before you compromise your safety on your next trip to the boneyard.

If you're interested drop me a PM and I might know of a good shop in your area, I can promise that they won't be the cheapest, but they'll do it right, and take care of you.

Matt

[Kejtar]

DOn't know about your area.. but here it's not worth it to do a pick an pull on a windshield.... I had a brand new aftermarket one (tinted like the OEM I had) installed for $115 or so...... it has so far served me well for about a year :D
I suggest looking around for a good/cheap auto glass shop.

Kejtar

[Kejtar]

oh btw matt... the "Cheap" glass I got is made by the same company as the oem one... the only thing mine didn't have the chrysler logo on it...

[BrettM]

thanks for the input guys, still not totally sure what i'm gonna do. I'll definitely call around and see how much for a new one installed. Also, I wasn't planning on installing the glass, just pulling it and taking it in to a place.

[CheapXJ]

while you're at it, upgrade to the rubber seal that's used in the newer XJs

tighter fit, and easier replacement.

[MJR]

I am not aware of Buytl being used on a XJ/MJ windshield. They should all use urethane and are a structural part of the unibody. I have seen professionals try to remove windshields without breaking them and it's still a 50/50 chance of breaking it anyway.

[rixXJphx]

Good safety issues stated above about DIY.

Personally, for the time involved I would just spend the money and have a good pro do it.

If you ever need a wire saw, they are sold at camping outfitters as a lightweight tool to take backbacking. They are strong and well-made, with a finger ring at each end. They are capable of downing an 8 inch tree (though why you would need to do so while on a backpacking trip, I'll never know...).

[mdwatkins]

I wish I could say that I've never seen butyl used in an XJ or MJ...I replaced one just last week. Pisses me off when guys come in with newer vehicles that have been hacked and slashed by some jack@ss out there that doesn't care about what he's doing to your vehicle...

Kejtar, if you got a piece of glass that was produced by the same company than it's not aftermarket. In auto glass a vehicles manufactures logo doesn't designate OEM. The big three OEM manufactures for domestic vehicles are PPG, LOF (libby owens ford) or Pilkington (same company) and Guardian and offer glass with or without logos...basically it's for guys that are so anal and have to have that logo, but they pay for it. The logo usually costs you anywhere from 25 to 50 bucks, or more.

Matt

[MJR]

Originally posted by mdwatkins
I wish I could say that I've never seen butyl used in an XJ or MJ...I replaced one just last week. Pisses me off when guys come in with newer vehicles that have been hacked and slashed by some jack@ss out there that doesn't care about what he's doing to your vehicle...

Matt

I am not really surprised as I have seen a lot of things over the years.

[AZ Jeff]

Originally posted by mdwatkins

It is worth the money to get a good quality windshield and have it installed by a certified installer at a reputable shop. [/B]

THIS IS EXCELLENT ADVICE. To properly install a windshield, you need too many special tools and chemicals to make it worth being a DIY project.

Originally posted by mdwatkins
I recommend that you spend the money on an OEM windshield...they are properly designed, fit better and are a safer piece of glass. Aftermarket glass manufactures only adhear to the sheer basic of federal saftey standards, which just aren't enough for the vehicles on the road today.
Matt [/B]

This is will disagree with. Let's just say the OEM glass is "Safeguard" (Chrysler's in house glass brand). Now let's say the replacement glass offered by the reputable shop is "Car-lite" brand (used on Fords). I doubt that Ford's glass quality and safety requirements are inferior to that used by Chrysler. Thus, the statement the ONLY OEM is an acceptable choice from a safety perspective is flawed, in my mind.

[mdwatkins]

Originally posted by AZ Jeff


This is will disagree with. Let's just say the OEM glass is "Safeguard" (Chrysler's in house glass brand). Now let's say the replacement glass offered by the reputable shop is "Car-lite" brand (used on Fords). I doubt that Ford's glass quality and safety requirements are inferior to that used by Chrysler. Thus, the statement the ONLY OEM is an acceptable choice from a safety perspective is flawed, in my mind.

Your thought process is good here, but you've missed the point a little. We'll use LOF as an example as they manufacture OEM products for Ford, Chevy and Chrysler. The only time there will be a Carlite, or a SafeGuard logo in the glass is when that piece of glass is for that specific make. It's like Chevorlet and GM vehicles...They are made by the same company, but have different logo's. This is what I meant when I said that just because it doesn't have a manufacture specific logo (such as carlite) doesn't mean it's not OEM...Everytime the manufacturer produces a piece of glass and use the vehicles logo they have to pay royalties...to get around this they label the glass with their own label such as LOF, Guardian, PPG....it's the same glass just without the logo.

There is a difference between this glass and aftermarket pieces such as Safelite, FYG, and Crimex. These pieces of glass are produced aftermarket and are not Factory installed nor factory acceptable. These are the products that I mentioned that do not meet vehicle manufacture standards, only federal government standards.

Hope this clears things up a little.

Matt

[rixXJphx]

I think the communication problem is with the term 'OEM'

It stands for 'Original Equipment Manufacturer', and that's what it ORIGINALLY meant: the same company that originally manufactured stuff for the factory that assembled the vehicle.

But it has come to mean "equal to the standards of the original manufacturer".

So, even tho LOF might have made all the windshields for a model as it rolled off the assembly line,
a replacement windshield by Guardian or PPG (if equal to LOF's initial specifications) is now *generally considered* 'OEM' (and regardless of the car manufacturer's logo).

It would prolly be better to call it 'OEM' quality, but that's not how I see it in common usage.

[HossHoffer]

Hey I've installed several windshields that I picked up from the pull and save. I think the man was asking how to do it, not asking if he should do it. As for all the specialty tools, the last time I had a big shop come out the specialty tool he used to put the windshield in my Honda Accord was a cotter pin removal tool. From experience the best tool comes from NAPA and is the piano wire type. Even with this it takes alot of time and you will probably break one or two before you get one home. Its better to cut alot of the seal off and scrape it off later. A micarta or pexiglass scraped works best for this as they won't scratch the glass. All the OEM approved sealants can be bought at NAPA also and as far as toxicity, they rate far below the gasoline you put in the tank. I have found several brand new windshields in the boneyards. That said, at around $125 a replacement is often the best value when compared to the amount of work to get one from the junkyard. You might save the work for that hard to find 1964 Valiant.:D :D :D

[AZ Jeff]

Originally posted by mdwatkins
There is a difference between this glass and aftermarket pieces such as Safelite, FYG, and Crimex. These pieces of glass are produced aftermarket and are not Factory installed nor factory acceptable. These are the products that I mentioned that do not meet vehicle manufacture standards, only federal government standards.

Hope this clears things up a little.

Matt [/B]
Since we are hijacking this thread a bit, I will carry this discussion further. If Safelite (or these other "non-OEM" brands) meets FMVSS or DOT standards, how is one to know that the vehicle manufacturers standards are more stringent than those?

The vehicle manufacturer is required, by law, to meet FMVSS or DOT. How is one to know if the standards and specifications called forth by a given vehicle manufacturer for his glass (or any other part controlled by FMVSS or DOT) are any GREATER than those dictated by law? Unless you are privy to those internal specs (or they are called out in the FSM) the average technician would not know that.

My FSM makes reference to using urethane adhesives to attach the windshield that conform to FMVSS, but makes no mention of any specs for the glass proper. I would infer from that that glass that meets FMVSS is ALL that's available for replacment/repair purposes, that is ALL that's required.

[mdwatkins]

Basically auto manufactures have worked closely with ANSI to produce a in a single publication what should be used, and how it should be used. If you compare the new ANSI standards to that of the FMVSS you will find that the ANSI is quite a bit more stringent on how glass is insatalled and with what materials. Basically the FMVSS set requirements on how much seperation of the glass from the vehicle is allowed in a collision. Ultimately until the ANSI came out you were left up to your own devices in interpreting the FMVSS, which many companies took advantage of. I guarantee that the ANSI standards will soon replace the FMVSS standards on glass replacement.

Matt

[AZ Jeff]

Matt,

It's significant that you mention ANSI standards being developed that will superceded FMVSS for windshields (or anything else, for that matter). Since the FMVSS are set by a Gov. agency, it may take a while before the ANSI standards, no matter how much better, are actually legally binding. That will leave it up to the individual auto manufacturers as to whether they comply to ANSI, or the less stringent FMVSS.

It's also interesting that ANSI is being used as the regulatory body for these new standards. In general, ANSI is not recognized outside North America. There is a lot of corrrelation (and collaboration) between ANSI and ISO, but there is no guarantee that a given ANSI standard will be recognized by any auto manufacturer OUTSIDE the US, unless an equivalent ISO standard exists.

For this reason, I am surprised the SAE is not involved. At least the engineering staff of Toyota (as an example of a non-US auto manufacturer) recognizes the SAE standards. I doubt they do the same with ANSI.

[mdwatkins]

True about the SAE...I'm betting that they jump on board as-well...My understanding about ANSI is that most domestic makers were already at this level years ago. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, safety is what really drives the car market today. Next time you look at an auto ad, count how many references to saftey are made, how many air bags, tests etc. Basically the auto market has surpassed the FMVSS for a number of years now.

European makes are an interesting replacement. For some reason they have a thing about less urethane in their windshield...maybe it's because they are primarily aluminum body styles and use a stiffer high modulose urethane...

What drives me nuts is the asian made vehicles...there is absolutely the bare minimum amount of urethane used. Everytime I cut one out I wonder how in the heck they can get away with it :eek:

Matt

[Tucker]

Caught this thread late but anyways... discarded brass-wound steel strings for a fretted musical instrument (guitar, mandolin, etc.) make good wire saws in a pinch. They may wear out a bit quicker than a store-bought one but the price is right. Don't use the GoreTex-coated ones, that stuff acts as a lubricant. You'll have to fab handles from a dowel.

[pgonchar]

Originally posted by mdwatkins
True about the SAE...I'm betting that they jump on board as-well...My understanding about ANSI is that most domestic makers were already at this level years ago. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, safety is what really drives the car market today. Next time you look at an auto ad, count how many references to saftey are made, how many air bags, tests etc. Basically the auto market has surpassed the FMVSS for a number of years now.

European makes are an interesting replacement. For some reason they have a thing about less urethane in their windshield...maybe it's because they are primarily aluminum body styles and use a stiffer high modulose urethane...

What drives me nuts is the asian made vehicles...there is absolutely the bare minimum amount of urethane used. Everytime I cut one out I wonder how in the heck they can get away with it :eek:

Matt

A few that i get a laugh at are Volvo's FW737 and 2052? the bead is about a 1/4" wide, Mopar mostly WJs where the paint peels from the primer, and when the "NATIONAL COMPANIES" do a top-set and 6 mo later the pinchwelds rotted.
I can go on and on about this.

[martin]

Guys,

Not to change the direction of the thread but there was talk about installing the black rubber seal on an older XJ if you changed the window. I have my 88 XJ in the shop and mentioned to the manager about the rubber seal. He told me it would not go into my vehicle. I told him I recall you just pull the clips and the vehicle will accept the newer style seal.

To install this seal used in the mid 90s and later does the window have to be removed or can it be installed without disturbing my window?

Martin

[MJR]

I think the newer seal goes on the new windshield and then gets glued in. Yes the body is the same and it will fit after removing the windshield moulding clips.

[Matthew Currie]

As MJR notes, because the new style seal actually goes around the edge of the glass, it cannot be installed without removing the window. If the windshield is well-centered, you can use it without removing the pins for the old style molding.

[eric91xj]

i use elmers glue and scotch tape for all the glass repairs in my shop.

Eric